Have you found Latin study to be worth it?

[TracyR]

I'm just stretching this from another post. There was a link to a 1920's book that talked about both the pros and cons of studying Latin, and of course it got me to thinking.

 

Do you feel that studying Latin is truely worth it? Since Latin is not a 'living' language and isn't used everyday like Spanish or French. Do you feel that it has benefitted you or your children in some way?

 

I know a homeschooling mom was telling me that her son studied Latin, not sure for how long or what grade level(s). He is now off to college and he felt it was totally not worth it as now he has to take up Spanish as part of his degree.

With the little Latin I have learned thus far I do see the connections of some the root words with Latin and Spanish, such as casa, well in Latin that means house, in Spanish it means house. So how can it not be benficial? I would imagine that when studying Spanish you have to conjugate verbs and such the same as you do with learning Latin.

 

My mother in law feels we are wasting our time on Latin and I should be teaching them Spanish or French. Which I do plan on adding one or the other when my oldest starts 7th grade here next year.

I don't know. Like I've said I've read both the pros and cons of learning Latin and still am not sure if we are wasting our time. I guess in the end, the one thing that both sides can agree on and not argue is that Latin boosts SAT scores.

[FairProspects]

I haven't started teaching my kids Latin yet, but I took it in college and definitely saw the benefits.

 

I never learned proper English grammar (and I could still use more work there) before studying Latin because I was forced to diagram for declensions. I took Spanish every year from 6th grade on and I AP'ed into 2nd year college Spanish and it absolutely did not see the same grammatical/intellectual results. My test scores jumped dramatically on the GRE compared to what I scored on the SAT after Latin, because so much of the English language is based on Latin (not the case for Spanish, although arguably becoming more so).

 

My best friend who ended up becoming a doctor, said she was the only one at her Ivy League that she knew who had not taken Latin. She also fervently wished she had the opportunity because it would have been so much use to her in her medical field.

 

Personally, I see the main benefits of Latin being in vocabulary boosting, writing with proper grammatical structure, and being a gateway to many other languages. I'm willing to bet your son's friend will find Spanish a breeze (and may even be able to test out of classes & requirements) because of his Latin background. My grandmother can read any romance language to this day because of her fluent Latin background (at 86!).

 

Latin seems to be a skill that transfers because of the structure of the language itself (which is very unique) and how it intersects with other languages. Spanish has a different set of benefits (ones that can often get you a job if you are fluent) but they tend to be more practical and less intellectual. Which direction is right for your family probably depends on what your goals in teaching a foreign language, whether they be for college admission requirements, to boost test scores, to enhance your study of English grammar, etc.

[PeterPan]

I'm just stretching this from another post. There was a link to a 1920's book that talked about both the pros and cons of studying Latin, and of course it got me to thinking.

 

 

Link?

[TracyR]

Oops. Sorry about that. Thought I had posted the link.

 

Here is the Affirmative and Negative from the book. It was printed in 1921

 

Affirmative Negative

[HappyGrace]

:lurk5:

 

I've been wondering the same thing lately. We did LFC A and are doing B; wondering about going on to C or not next year.

 

I have seen her figure out Eng. vocab sometimes from her Latin, and I'm hoping it is helping thinking skills. Also I'm certain it will eventually help her learn other Romance languages easily. I took 7 yrs of French in school, and I can recognize some Latin due to the French. BUT French is a breeze compared to the Latin, so I know that when dd goes the OTHER way, Latin to French or Spanish, it will be a cakewalk for her.

 

It is a big time investment though. I am planning on waiting til 4th grade to start it with younger ds rather than 3rd like I did with her.

[nmoira]

If one is only looking at studying Latin from a utilitarian POV, one or two Romance languages will more than fill the vocabulary roots void, and it's not unheard of to teach English grammar as opposed to English grammar by proxy. ;) However, I enjoy Latin, and so does DD the Elder (I haven't yet started with DD the Younger). As long as she's a willing student, we'll keep up with it.

 

I'm not at all ambivalent about modern languages: These are non-negotiable.

[HollyDay]

I've been considering this myself. I've decided (no flames please), that latin is not going to be continued in our program. From a vocabulary POV, I think there is some benefit to both latin and greek. I plan to continue that aspect by using programs such as English from the Roots Up. But, the endless conjugations and declinations are not getting us where I wanted to go. So, for us, we are stopping formal latin. We have started spanish and will continue that as a practical necessity. And, like I said, we will continue to look at vocabulary building. There are just too many other things I find I must do that latin has little time left over.

[HappyGrace]

But, the endless conjugations and declinations are not getting us where I wanted to go.

 

:iagree: Yup, that's where I'm at with it-that we may be better off with just a root study.

[mazakaal]

I'm planning to continue Latin study through the end of 7th grade and possibly 8th. Then, when he can accumulate some high school credits for a modern language, we'll drop Latin and pick up either French or Spanish. That's my plan for now at least.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm gonna ask what may seem a DUMB question. How late was latin spoken? In the affirmative section of that link from Tracy they mention the fall of Constantinople (1453). So how long was latin actually spoken? I mean largely, not just in remaining pockets or clusters and cloisters.

 

See to me it makes a mind-boggling amount of difference if latin was spoken for over 1,000 years and holds a huge chunk of our past, kwim? But I'm showing my ignorance of history. I just really don't know how all that fits together. Anyone?

[forty-two]

To me the key to whether the study of Latin has value is whether you value an indepth study of the classics themselves. Just about all the formative, brain-training benefits can be gotten via other subjects, if they are taught in such a way as to facilitate it, and while careful translating *does* help English skills, I think any language, studied to proficiency, would do. As well, a full-fledged Latin program is overkill if all you want is the vocab boost from word roots.

 

Granted, Latin does unite all these benefits into one subject, making for ease of use - you don't have to figure out how to structure all your other subjects in order to replicate the all the ancillary benefits Latin study yields. Still, I just don't think Latin study is worth the time unless you actually want to, you know, *learn Latin*.

 

That said, I do want to learn Latin ;). And I plan to make it, along with Greek, Hebrew, and math, the cornerstone of our homeschool. Reading the affirmative and negative briefs have helped me clarify my reasoning, and confirmed that I really do have solid, justifiable reasons for planning a hardcore LCC approach (and not just because it sounds cool :D). While I disagree with the Latin proponents on quite a bit - I don't agree that studying Latin is the *only* way to acquire the benefits touted, or that Latin is somehow more special and awesome than all other languages, or that translation is the end-all, be-all of Latin study - I *do* share their overall educational goals; I just quibble some on the best way to get there. The Latin opponents, on the other hand, have a completely different view than I do when it comes to the purpose of education and the value of the past - I just don't want to go where they are going.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

For us, Latin is our most used language other than English! We are Catholic and sing Latin prayers weekly at mass and sometimes sing or say prayers in Latin at home. Even if it weren't for all of the other benefits of learning Latin, it still would be a worthwhile study for our family.

[christine in al]

This is a real question. How did your Grandmother study Latin?

If my children could read anything in romance languages a half century after I'm dead... that's what I want for them.

 

~christine in al

[FairProspects]

This is a real question. How did your Grandmother study Latin?

If my children could read anything in romance languages a half century after I'm dead... that's what I want for them.

 

~christine in al

 

I just talked to my Mom and she said my grandmother started Latin in late junior high in the then NY public school system. Of course, this was in the late 1930s. She took Latin every year through high school because she wanted to score well on the NY Regents exam which apparently was pretty difficult. I'm not sure what the modern credit equivalent would be, but it was at least 4 years worth of high school level Latin.

 

My grandmother tested out of the Latin requirement for the Seven Sisters colleges so she didn't take it in college, but by then she was fluent (can you be fluent in a dead language?) and she has retained the knowledge ever since. I'm not sure what she specifically studied as far as material, but I can ask her if you are interested. She also jointly studied French with Latin and did the best out of all of us on our Europe trip!

[Sunshine State Sue]

We studied Latin for 4 calendar years through mid-7th grade. I wanted to do this for English grammar, English vocabulary, and to help with future Romance languages. I had hoped to be able to continue through 8th grade, then in high school continue with a modern language. But, after 4 years, it became a battle that I was no longer willing to fight. My own ignorance of Latin and lack of time (I work 30hrs/wk) meant that ds was working with a tutor. When we started there were 2 other students working with us, but they dropped out eventually. Ds didn't really like the hard work that was involved, but he did reasonably well. With 20/20 hindsight, I wish I had tried an online class, but we were not following the typical school year at that time. Also, our days are quite full with other school work, so I don't feel too terrible about dropping it.

 

The only concrete proof I have that it was beneficial was his scores on the ITBS at the end of 6th grade. Vocabulary was the only thing that he scored above average in besides math (and I have a degree in math). He scored 11.7 grade level. The fact that we read good books and use Megawords could have contributed to the score as well.

 

I hope that when he's in 10th grade and dual enrolled at the community college in a foreign langauge that those 4 years will help him to pick it up easier, but I regularly have my doubts. :tongue_smilie:

[Laura Corin]

Latin is one of our portfolio of languages. Would we study Latin in preference to other foreign languages? No, but it's a valuable part of our curriculum nonetheless. FWIW, Calvin started Mandarin at 7, Latin at about 8 or 9, French at 12. Hobbes started Mandarin at 4, Greek at around 8, French at 8 and Latin at 9. Neither boy has dropped a language.

 

Laura

[angela in ohio]

I took Latin in high school. It was the single more useful thing I ever learned. My SAT and ACT verbal scores were fantastic, my written work in college was praised highly because of my vocabulary, and I use it all of the time to tackle unfamilar words when reading older literature.

 

I have taught classes of Latin for a few years now. I have had so many students tell me the things they now know and understand because of their Latin study.

[prairie rose]

I'm wondering why he has to "take up Spanish" now. Was Latin the only foreign language he studied? If so, I would say that the problem isn't that he wasted his time on Latin but that he did not include a modern language in his studies. If he wasn't capable of studying both Latin and a modern language concurrently, then I would have either had him study Latin in middle/jr high and the modern language in high school or just a modern language and no formal Latin.

 

I do not consider Latin to be a foreign language. I count it as part of our language arts program. My middle school and near middle school children are currently studying Latin and Japanese. In high school, Latin will be an elective course but not one to fill the foreign language requirement. They will study the modern language of their choice to fill the foreign language requirement.

 

That's our plan anyways. ;)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I do having taken 3 years of Latin in high school. It benefits one's vocabulary as well as understanding of grammar, etc. OTOH, for younger children between the ages of 4 and 8 or older, you may want to place a greater emphasis (more time) on modern language than Latin IMO. I do modern languages (German and Spanish) in a fun way with my ds as well a some Latin with LfC. I plan on continuing the same:) The only reason I think it is important to place more emphasis on modern languages is that young minds are like language sponges:)

[TracyR]

According to the homeschool mom he studied both Latin and German. The college he is going to does not offer Latin or German.

I'm not sure how he went about studying the Latin as she said she didn't teach it to him. Not sure if he did a self pace course or if with another homeschool family. I just don't know.

 

I'm hoping in the end that we haven't wasted our time.

[lovemykids]

:lurk5:

[plimsoll]

Oops. Sorry about that. Thought I had posted the link.

 

Here is the Affirmative and Negative from the book. It was printed in 1921

 

Affirmative Negative

 

Apparently in my old age I've turned into a real reactionary. Who would have thunk, given my feckless youth. When I read the "affirmative" link above, I find I agree with just about all of it. When I read the "negative" link, I find in it the seeds that I believe have led us to the abysmal impasse in which public education currently finds itself.

[Ester Maria]

Latin study is truly worth it only if you want to learn Latin.

True, as a "side effect", it does help with the English vocabulary and grammar; however, if your primary purpose is to boost your students' vocabulary, a lot easier and a lot more pleasant and useful way to do it is via any modern Romance language, and if your primary purpose is to teach them grammar, well, as somebody nicely pointed out a page or two earlier, it's definitely not unheard of or weird to teach the English grammar by and through itself, not using a "proxy". ;)

 

So I'd say if your primary purpose is anything other than Latin itself, reconsider your way of getting there, since you might be wasting your time. I realize that "wasting your time" is a bit of an ugly expression here, since no time is really "wasted" if used for learning something new, and since you can profit from little Latin just like you can profit from a lot of Latin (on a different level obviously, but any new material learned is on the long road a piece of your own mental "puzzle" and thus enriches it), however, you are not very likely to learn Latin to a high level that way anyway, while with a modern Romance language you might get at least some concrete use out of it in addition to that which you primarily want (vocabulary, grammar awareness, translation exercizes, etc.).

 

We study Latin as one of our core subjects, but we're also native Italian speakers so it has a whole other dimension for us (not only the linguistic, but also cultural and historical ties are crucial for us). Still, I always make a very clear point to my daughters that they're learning Latin because of Latin, and that learning Latin in order to help with Italian or history is secondary.

 

I chose the approach "little by little over a long period of time" because I find it more effective than to cram all the Latin I planned in a couple of years of a more intensive study. That way, we started playfully in kindergarten, hit the formal grammar and the structure of the language in about third grade (by then they had already encountered lots of small adapted texts and vocabulary units, so nothing we started was a shock), and now my 6th grader is finishing up syntax and working through the excerpts of Sallust and Caesar, while my 7th grader is reading syntactically more complex things (Cicero) - for the first reading it's still largely analytical, but she's making great progress towards fluent reading and we plan on hitting poetry next year (they both know only the metrics of hexameters so far, so I plan on using that and partially go through Aeneid and Metamorphoses over the next year). Basically my goal for them with Latin is a reading fluency (I'm very opposed to "natural approach" with Latin so we don't speak it), and I'm not removing Latin out of our schedule as long as I'm schooling them; and if we go back to Italy at some point of their schooling (very likely), they know they have to go to school with a proper 5-year Latin program (no problems about that, since both classico and scientifico, they're interested in, follow that system). :)

[FairProspects]

Latin study is truly worth it only if you want to learn Latin.

True, as a "side effect", it does help with the English vocabulary and grammar; however, if your primary purpose is to boost your students' vocabulary, a lot easier and a lot more pleasant and useful way to do it is via any modern Romance language, and if your primary purpose is to teach them grammar, well, as somebody nicely pointed out a page or two earlier, it's definitely not unheard of or weird to teach the English grammar by and through itself, not using a "proxy". ;)

 

 

I guess I just feel that Drew Campbell put it best. " You can teach English grammar and your child knows English grammar. Or you can teach Latin, and your child knows Latin...(with all its other benefits) and gets English grammar as a bonus."

[Peela]

For us, I would say Latin is worth it, and not because we have reached any high levels in it and can read original texts or anything like that, even though we have been plodding along in it for years.

For my older, who did Latin first for several years in a small homeschool group with a Latin teacher, it was a joy to be in a class situation, the teacher taught a lot of Classical history and geography along with the Latin, and he gave it all a wonderful context. I used to enjoy the class too and decided to continue with both of my kids once we left the class.

It hasnt been easy doing Latin at home alone. For my daughter- I think the most benefit was in those years of discussion and learning in a small group, but she has also learned to think clearly and work out the Latin for herself. For my dyslexic son, who has not progressed very far at all in the 3 years he has been learning Latin, I was almost going to give up recently as I was despairing that his brain just doesn't hold things very well! However, my opinion now is that even a little Latin is better than no Latin. Ds14 struggles with grammar- even though he thinks he is great at it!- and I often find that explaining concepts in terms of his Latin grammar helps him understand and remember his English grammar.

If I sit with him, we can do his Latin and feel satisfied- I can egg him on and assist him and I am impressed with his mind- he can really do it- but if I leave him to himself- well, he doesn't do it very well. So, if we are going to do it, we just have to do it together.

I let go of my classical ideals long ago, but Latin is still happening here because I see how it makes my kids THINK like nothing else. However, I think my dd15 may be dropping it this next year, in the name of just streamlining and not enough time to do everything I would like. However, I fully intend to continue with my son because of how it makes him think, and how it helps him with his English grammar.

But, if I didnt enjoy the challenge of Latin myself, I wouldnt hang in there. I did a year of Latin in school and it was enough to give me a headstart on my kids, and keep me interested, as it all started to make sense.

So, my reasons are practical and experiental rather than idealogical nowadays.

[Caribbean Queen]

Latin study is truly worth it only if you want to learn Latin.

True, as a "side effect", it does help with the English vocabulary and grammar; however, if your primary purpose is to boost your students' vocabulary, a lot easier and a lot more pleasant and useful way to do it is via any modern Romance language, and if your primary purpose is to teach them grammar, well, as somebody nicely pointed out a page or two earlier, it's definitely not unheard of or weird to teach the English grammar by and through itself, not using a "proxy". ;)

 

So I'd say if your primary purpose is anything other than Latin itself, reconsider your way of getting there, since you might be wasting your time. :)

 

 

Interesting. :001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

I guess I just feel that Drew Campbell put it best. " You can teach English grammar and your child knows English grammar. Or you can teach Latin, and your child knows Latin...(with all its other benefits) and gets English grammar as a bonus."

I absolutely agree, and it's a very valid point. :)

 

However, the point I was trying to make was that you can get that a lot easier via basically any IE foreign language (the Romance languages are obviously the bext choice because of the vocabulary benefit as well, but grammar-wise, you can take up something like German with no problems) if you choose to learn it less by immersion and more analytically. Latin per se, Latin as a language, is not any more "magical" than Italian or German when it comes to that - always keep in mind that it's the necessity of analytical approach that makes you become aware of the grammar, not something inherent to Latin as a language.

 

Also, I'd like to make one more point. In order to truly benefit grammar-wise from Latin (that is, not vocab-wise, but specifically regarding grammar), the level of morphology is not enough - you need syntax, you need to learn about relations between all those morphological parts you learned by heart and learned to recognize in a simple structure. Syntax of complex sentences and of paragraphs is in itself a pretty high level, which assumes you have covered all of the morphology previously - I mean, if you're on syntax, you're reading texts. Maybe struggling, maybe not fluently at all, maybe with a lot of analysis and with the help of a dictionary, BUT, it's still the level of unadapted Cicero - and that's exactly the level at which it will be really worth it, grammar-wise. (I took Cicero as an example because it's an excellent author for syntax practice, with all those long complex sentences.)

 

For quick "grammar fix" - learning the parts of speech, simple sentence analysis or the basic characterstics of tenses - you really don't need Latin, and if for some reason you feel like studying the English grammar via a proxy, using Italian (or French, or German... you get the point) will get you Italian grammar + English grammar + some concrete and useful knowledge of a living modern language, which itself will open many more doors to your child today than Latin will. So technically speaking, for that level, it's probably a wiser choice to pick a modern language and just do the analytical part along the regular methods of studying modern foreign languages which will give you oral fluency.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not against ANY Latin, and the "any Latin is better than no Latin" definitely makes sense in my eyes too as an approach to the topic; I'm just throwing my two cents. :)

 

Mind you, I still have a feeling my daughters gained the most out of studying Hebrew grammar (we started that recently, earlier they just learned the language by immersion, now they're getting the formal part down). I think that the insight into a language which functions differently and is not IE has forced them to be aware of the structure of the language as a phenomenon and thus enriched their IE languages too. That's probably one more reason why Latin lost its "magic" in my eyes, since I see that the goal people try to attain via Latin - unless that goal is Latin itself - is basically attainable via other languages too.

[angela in ohio]

I absolutely agree, and it's a very valid point. :)

 

However, the point I was trying to make was that you can get that a lot easier via basically any IE foreign language (the Romance languages are obviously the bext choice because of the vocabulary benefit as well, but grammar-wise, you can take up something like German with no problems) if you choose to learn it less by immersion and more analytically. Latin per se, Latin as a language, is not any more "magical" than Italian or German when it comes to that - always keep in mind that it's the necessity of analytical approach that makes you become aware of the grammar, not something inherent to Latin as a language.

 

Sure it is. If you are trying to teach vocabulary, Latin has the highest rate of common vocabulary. If you are trying to teach grammar, a highly inflected language like Latin is the best choice. If you put those two facts together, Latin is a better choice than other languages. When you add cultural literacy (you don't see a lot of German phrases around,) you increase the advantage.

 

You could teach another language and teach many things (the process of learning one language, and the skills it teaches, will obviously make learning any other language easier,) but Latin is the superior choice if your goals are English vocabulary and grammar acqusition.

[PeterPan]

That's probably one more reason why Latin lost its "magic" in my eyes, since I see that the goal people try to attain via Latin - unless that goal is Latin itself - is basically attainable via other languages too.

 

Absolutely. I studied russian in high school and college, and the benefits were so profound, increasing my understanding of grammar and the nuances of meaning, opening doors to cultures and thought processes, and learning skills to apply to other languages. Although I never studied latin in school, I haven't felt some lack. Latin is NOT the only way to get there, and I think your point is well taken that at some point, somewhere on your goal list there actually needs to be *want to learn latin* as a goal. Otherwise there are other roads to get there, if only the other benefits are what you seek. Latin will get you there, but other languages will too. Oh, unless you want the clout and mystique *latin* gives.

[BigMamaBird]

Ok, I'm gonna ask what may seem a DUMB question. How late was latin spoken? In the affirmative section of that link from Tracy they mention the fall of Constantinople (1453). So how long was latin actually spoken? I mean largely, not just in remaining pockets or clusters and cloisters.

 

See to me it makes a mind-boggling amount of difference if latin was spoken for over 1,000 years and holds a huge chunk of our past, kwim? But I'm showing my ignorance of history. I just really don't know how all that fits together. Anyone?

 

Bumping this, because I'm curious too.

[lakotajm]

OK, I have pondered this for two years for my dd, now 13, (did not hs her for 2nd through 4th) and part of the con has been cost, quite honestly. Now my question is, have I missed my window of opportunity? Is 8th grade too late to start elementary Latin? And I do so much want to throw in Hebrew and Greek and Mandarin and she likes Spanish. But how do you do it all? And with cost still an issue, am I short changing her if we just go with English from the Roots Up? Mostly I see the benefits for vocab and spelling (never thought about grammar). I don't want to just pick some cheap audio cassette program that is almost worse than nothing at all, but that is all our budget would allow. Seems everyone is teaching Latin at around 3rd grade and using a tutor, class or expensive curriculum. Do I get a gray dot (ala Wemicks) if I choose a spare, cheap route and start at age 14?

 

Lakota

[TracyR]

No. Like the saying goes, "Any Latin learned is better then not having learned any Latin at all." :>) So if you start in 8th grade that is fine. I've seen many start in 8th grade. I've found that Latina Christiana isn't to badly priced if you get it used. Right now we don't have the money but I managed to get the DVD's and Teacher manual for a good price. I don't have the workbooks at the moment so I just type the workbook pages on my Microsoft Word at the moment until I can get a couple of workbooks. You can make your own flashcards as you go as well.

 

If money is an issue there is a really nice Latin program and she , and even you could use it to learn Latin. Problem is I can't remember the name of it. I've seen it mentioned here on the boards. Its a book, and she could go through it and teach it to herself. The author has a Spanish program too. If anyone has a clue to the name of the program please share because I had the link and lost it and would like to get the Spanish for myself. The book is very inexpensive too.

[forty-two]

OK, I have pondered this for two years for my dd, now 13, (did not hs her for 2nd through 4th) and part of the con has been cost, quite honestly. Now my question is, have I missed my window of opportunity? Is 8th grade too late to start elementary Latin? And I do so much want to throw in Hebrew and Greek and Mandarin and she likes Spanish. But how do you do it all? And with cost still an issue, am I short changing her if we just go with English from the Roots Up? Mostly I see the benefits for vocab and spelling (never thought about grammar). I don't want to just pick some cheap audio cassette program that is almost worse than nothing at all, but that is all our budget would allow. Seems everyone is teaching Latin at around 3rd grade and using a tutor, class or expensive curriculum. Do I get a gray dot (ala Wemicks) if I choose a spare, cheap route and start at age 14?

 

Fourteen is not too late - even double fourteen is not too late (or I'm just wasting my time :tongue_smilie:). And if you are willing to learn alongside your dd (or she is very motivated herself to learn Latin), there are plenty of low or even no cost routes available. Most people who use expensive curricula/classes are paying for ease of use, or the ability to outsource - you don't need it if you are willing to put in some effort.

 

Free resources:

*Textkit.com - Has free Latin and Greek texts, some with answer keys, and a whole community of self-motivated people learning the languages together. You can ask for help or check answers or just discuss Laitn and Greek on their forums. A wonderful resource.

*Latinum - A free Latin podcast, plus links to many free Latin resources. He has audio for an entire Latin textbook (plus the text free to download) along with audio of many Latin poems and other misc Latin. He also has a lot of good, informative articles about all aspects of learning Latin. There is more than enough material just here to learn Latin well.

 

For low cost options, Henle is pretty cheap (under $25 for Book one and the grammar), as is Wheelock's (new for $20, and you can find plenty of used copies). Orberg's Lingua Latina isn't too bad either - I think I bought everything - CD-ROM, both texts, both exercitia, the teacher's materials, and the college companion - for under $100, new, off Amazon, and you certainly don't need all that to get started.

 

If you want your dd to learn Latin, go for it - you've plenty of options.

 

HTH

[lovemykids]

Sure it is. If you are trying to teach vocabulary, Latin has the highest rate of common vocabulary. If you are trying to teach grammar, a highly inflected language like Latin is the best choice. If you put those two facts together, Latin is a better choice than other languages. When you add cultural literacy (you don't see a lot of German phrases around,) you increase the advantage.

 

You could teach another language and teach many things (the process of learning one language, and the skills it teaches, will obviously make learning any other language easier,) but Latin is the superior choice if your goals are English vocabulary and grammar acqusition.

 

:)

 

I should of said, I agree!

Edited December 26, 2009 by lovemykids

[lovemykids]

Free resources:

*Textkit.com - Has free Latin and Greek texts, some with answer keys, and a whole community of self-motivated people learning the languages together. You can ask for help or check answers or just discuss Laitn and Greek on their forums. A wonderful resource.

*Latinum - A free Latin podcast, plus links to many free Latin resources. He has audio for an entire Latin textbook (plus the text free to download) along with audio of many Latin poems and other misc Latin. He also has a lot of good, informative articles about all aspects of learning Latin. There is more than enough material just here to learn Latin well.

 

If you want your dd to learn Latin, go for it - you've plenty of options.

 

HTH

 

Thank you!!

[FairProspects]

Sure it is. If you are trying to teach vocabulary, Latin has the highest rate of common vocabulary. If you are trying to teach grammar, a highly inflected language like Latin is the best choice. If you put those two facts together, Latin is a better choice than other languages. When you add cultural literacy (you don't see a lot of German phrases around,) you increase the advantage.

 

You could teach another language and teach many things (the process of learning one language, and the skills it teaches, will obviously make learning any other language easier,) but Latin is the superior choice if your goals are English vocabulary and grammar acqusition.

 

:iagree:

[lovemykids]

We are starting very lightly with “Getting Started with Latin” and I hope to move on to LFC later with my sons. I am keeping my eyes open for other resources though, and I am going to try to implement a few of the freebies. :tongue_smilie:

Edited December 26, 2009 by lovemykids

[Ester Maria]

Latin: Qua de causa Helvetii quoque reliquos Gallos virtute praecedunt, quod fere cotidianis proeliis cum Germanis contendunt, cum aut suis finibus eos prohibent aut ipsi in eorum finibus bellum gerunt.

 

Italian: Per tale motivo pure gli Elvezi superano in valore gli altri Galli, perché con battaglie quasi quotidiane si scontrano coi Germani, quando o li respingono dai loro territori o loro stessi fanno guerra nei loro territori.

 

Now let's see part by part:

1. Qua de causa = di questa causa -> per tale motivo (the same)

2. Helvetii = gli Elvezi (the same)

3. quoque* - a word you can't get without having studied Latin, but not that you ever see it in English, so it's irrelevant anyway

4. reliquos Gallos = "reliquia" di Galli -> gli altri Galli ("quei Galli che rimangono" / the "rest of them" - it makes sense, and lexically you can get it with no problems)

5. virtute praecedunt = precedono di virtù -> superano in valore (this last "version" ONLY because it sounds better in Italian this way, precedere and virtù are normal Italian words as well, and their Latin roots are recognized instantly)

6. quod* - another one you can't know syntactically if you haven't studied Latin, BUT, you can get it lexically, assuming (by the place in sentence and general function) that it's così, and if we were to translate literally, it would be that way

7. fere* - it means "almost", but you can't know it without having studied Latin; again, this is ALSO an example of a word you maybe can't know, but will also never encounter in English in any form

8. cotidianis proeliis* = in prelia / battaglie (*proelia is not used in modern Italian anymore, only in some fixed expressions of Latin origin; but again, do you have it in English? No.) quotidiane (used in Italian)

9. cum Germanis = coi Germani (identical)

10. contendunt = contendono (disputano, as you want, but you WILL recognize the root) -> si scontrano

11. cum = con (ok, syntactically it has a different role in Latin so it can't be translated with con, but you will still recognize it and get the meaning)

12. aut ... aut = o ... o (exclusion, very obviously)

13. suis finibus = dalle sue "fini" (the word is la fine), though here it's translated -> dai loro territori, since here it doesn't have the meaning of limite, but of territorio

14. eos* prohibent = you can't know the accusative without having studied Latin, but prohibent -> proibiscono; it's just that this is the example in which semantics changed, so you have to translate it with a different word to modern Italian; still, you WILL get the root

15. ipsi = (loro) stessi, medesimi (the Latin root is not in use, but goes recognized)

16. in eorum* finibus - again, you may not know eorum, but you will get that it's "in (some) territory/limit", and that it's plural

17. bellum* guerunt* - conducono guerre -> fanno guerra (this one you can't know recognize without Latin)

 

I marked the words for which you ABSOLUTELY need Latin, but everything else, as you can see, is LEXICALLY understood from Italian if an Italian speaker tries to understand. Morphologically or syntactically it may be a bit of an issue to understand some things at first, even semantically since in some cases semantics changed, but if we're speaking purely of lexical elements, and morphology of endings, Italian speaker understands it.

 

This is, you might have recognized, Caesar, from the first paragraph of De Bello Gallico. I was looking for a short but suitable example in which I can show, on the "known" original text (didn't want to take something obscure), how many lexical elements you get by a modern Romance language. (For syntax I would have chosen something more complex, Cicero or something of the kind; if somebody is interested, I'm okay with expanding on that aspect too, as long as you can follow (not sure who's on which level with Latin here).)

 

By the way, I just found another one:

Illa in gloria sua exaltat caput suum; haec dicit Deo suo: "Gloria mea et exaltans caput meum".

Ella (lei) in sua gloria esalta (leva) (il) suo capo (la sua testa); quella dice al suo Dio: "Gloria mia (tu sei) e esalti (lett. stai esaltando/levando) il mio capo.

 

This is Saint Augustine, one of the examples in which almost everything is lexically IDENTICAL. :D

Basically I could play with this the whole day to show to you that vocab-wise, you get the same thing out of Italian as you get out of Latin. Grammar-wise Latin is more complex, however, are you really going to profit THAT MUCH in grammar out of handling elements your language doesn't even have (talking about declensions concretely; when it comes to verbal inflexity, Italian sure has that)?

 

All you want to get with Latin, you can get with Italian PLUS a knowledge of a living, useful language. Not promoting my language here, I'm sure French or Spanish speakers versed in Latin could provide you with similar analyzes, just saying that unless Latin language and literature are your goal, you can get vocab/grammar out of a modern Romance language just as easily.

 

Regarding cultural literacy that Angela (I think) has mentioned, that's a valid concern; however, it also depends on what are your limits of cultural literacy. For me, Lasciate ogni speranza is just as important and a common place as is Veni, vidi, vixi (which is btw also lexically IDENTICAL in Italian: Venni, vidi, vinsi. :p). Also, for some "weird" reason, I don't really see Latin citations translated in Italian works - it may be that most of us studies Latin, but it may also be that they're strangely "decipherable" if you speak Italian. ;)

[Ester Maria]

Now my question is, have I missed my window of opportunity? Is 8th grade too late to start elementary Latin?

Absolutely no; in fact I know of many (Italian) schools who use a 5-year program for Latin, starting in 8th grade, it works just as well. You're also probably aware of the fact that teens do much, much better in academic setting than younger kids, so your daughter will most likely learn at a faster pace anyway.

 

No age is too late to start.

And I do so much want to throw in Hebrew and Greek and Mandarin and she likes Spanish. But how do you do it all?

Don't add them all the same time. You can study multiple languages, but it's preferable to have a basic knowledge of one language before adding another one (min. 6 months), and so on, unless the child is VERY young (toddlers/preschool) and learns those languages by immersion. When learning formally and analytically, certain "gap" between them is suggested.

 

You might also wish to specify your priorities, whether you want an elementary competence in all of them, or a more thorough knowledge of one or two. I suggest the latter; if she's 14 and hasn't studied a foreign language before, maybe it'd be a good idea to focus on ONE for now, intensively, and then later build up from there when she has reached a good level.

 

To learn Latin you don't need expensive curricula, everything you can possibly wish is online - dictionaries, grammars, exercises, and texts. Those are all you need anyway, I personally kinda think that most of those curricula are a waste of money anyway, when it comes to classics, which I think should be learned the traditional way. All you need is grammar, dictionary, maybe some workbook with keys to exercises; and all the text you want to read are out of copyright and online.

 

You can also PM me with your email address, if you have a big inbox, I can send you some .pdf materials which teach Latin via English (I don't use those with my daughters, but have them). ;)

[lovemykids]

 

To learn Latin you don't need expensive curricula, everything you can possibly wish is online - dictionaries, grammars, exercises, and texts. Those are all you need anyway, I personally kinda think that most of those curricula are a waste of money anyway, when it comes to classics, which I think should be learned the traditional way. All you need is grammar, dictionary, maybe some workbook with keys to exercises; and all the text you want to read are out of copyright and online.

 

You can also PM me with your email address, if you have a big inbox, I can send you some .pdf materials which teach Latin via English (I don't use those with my daughters, but have them). ;)

 

So, which workbooks would you recommend? :bigear: