Can you tell me what you do re: activities and attitudes?

[3lilreds in NC]

We've been having a lot of poor attitudes around here lately. I know, before you tell me, that this stems from me, and it's my fault for letting it go on so long - we would not be here if I'd managed to pay attention and nip it in the bud.

 

However, we ARE here, and now I need to address it. I've tried clearly spelling out what my expectations are for school and any other time with regard to attitude. The drama has prevented us from getting school done, which is not acceptable. The girls have activities nearly every day so we have been stopping school to get them there.

 

Dh suggested that I tell the girls that if they don't get school done on a given day, they don't get to go to their activities. This would carry over, so for example, the child who doesn't have a Monday activity would lose out on Tuesday's horse riding lesson if they don't catch up before class time on Tuesday. Does this sound reasonable to you? We are currently shelling out a fairly significant amount of money for activities around here, and I am pretty tired of making the effort to get obnoxious children there. I don't want to pull them out entirely without giving them a chance, so this seemed like a reasonable approach.

 

Any thoughts?

[Tammyla]

What is most important to you and what message are you sending to your children? Lessons or activities?

 

Simple question, many of us struggle with.:grouphug:

 

fwiw...Here....lessons are done daily as they would be in a traditional school setting. ymmv

Edited November 16, 2009 by Tammyla

[Aggie]

Around here, not finishing work on Monday and missing the activity on Tues would not motivate dc enough to work both Monday and Tues, kwim? If it's a temporary problem, this works, but not for an on-going one.

 

It irks me to pay for something that dc are not going to. I feel compelled to let them go so I don't waste money.

 

So.....I know you said you don't want to pull them out of activities all together, but given the money spent and the attitudes and work issues, *I* would stop all activities until attitudes improve. I would sit down with dc, explain why we're doing this, what the new expectations are, and when they've shown me they can complete work with a good attitude, activities will resume. But not a second before.

 

This shows dc that you are serious about school. (And it saves you money.) It may only last a month so dc don't miss a lot of events, but it will be well worth it, ime, to get proper attitudes in line now.:001_smile:

 

Everything you *didn't* want to hear, right?:)

[joannqn]

If the girls really like their activities and would be devastated by missing them, that would probably work well. My concern with doing that, and why I personally don't do it with my kids, is that I'm paying for their activities whether we go or not so it's like throwing money away. But it may take only one time to get the message across.

 

With my kids, the best thing to keep us moving forward has been a school bell program. I have it set up to ring every 30 minutes. I schedule a new subject in each time slot, including two breaks and lunch. Occasionally I'll schedule a subject to take two time slots, though I only do this for fun history or science experiments/activities/crafts. I break up our work so it is easily finished in well less than 30 minutes and a couple of things are so very fast that I schedule them together in one slot. If they finish a subject before the bell rings, they get extra free time until the next bell rings. I have no problem getting them to drop their play to return to the school table when the bell rings. Carelessly done work is redone on the weekend, especially math work that has too many errors (defined as missed enough questions to get a grade below an A). We pretty much don't ever have a problem with work not getting done this way.

 

Before I found the bells, it took more goading from me to get the work done and bigger attitude problems. We tried out the bell program and loved it. When my free trial ended, I didn't buy it so we went back to the old way. The kids were really happy when I finally bought the program and started using it again a few weeks ago.

 

The funny thing is that they feel like they are doing less work. To them, it feels like they are getting a lot of free time. The truth is, they are actually doing more work than they used to. It's just broken up more and the school day is longer. Before I found the program, we moved to a new subject immediately after finishing the last and had a shorter school day.

 

I hope you figure out what works for your family. School is much more fun when you don't have a lot of complaining and tears.

Edited November 16, 2009 by joannqn

[Chris in VA]

I would give your plan a try. If it didn't work after a little while, then I'd just stop all activities. The consequence of you spending the money but them not getting to go to the activity would mean there isn't money for other things. That could be pretty hefty--I'd actually keep track and make them earn it.

 

But first, check your supervision (maybe they need you more beside them--not uncommon), check the level of the work (too high? too low and boring?) and the amount (reasonable for the time given?).

[Haiku]

This would carry over, so for example, the child who doesn't have a Monday activity would lose out on Tuesday's horse riding lesson if they don't catch up before class time on Tuesday.

 

I agree that if the kids aren't done with their schoolwork by activity time, they don't go. I don't agree with the carryover, though, as that crosses the line from logical consequence to punitive. If the child has all of Monday and Tuesday's work done by the time you need to leave for Tuesday's activity, the child should be able to go. I wouldn't make an arbitrary (before Tuesday's class time) deadline.

 

Oh, and you might want to throw in making them pay you back for the wasted money, if you feel that's appropriate.

 

Tara

Edited November 16, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Tess in the Burbs]

well you aren't alone in attitudes. We had a long talk here with the almost 8 year old boy about attitude and made it very clear that his lone job in life is to get educated and do a few chores. Anything else is fun and won't happen until he's done his first priority...school.

 

I took a different approach this year and we have no activities. I too hated taking them when they didn't deserve to go after bad school attitudes but I hated to waste the money and not go then. We did skip out of several weeks of sports last year when attitudes went sour but it wasted our money! So this year we did no activities. We do have a coop this year and I threatened to not go and that worked. we finish up with that this week and then they literally have no activities. And it's helped.

 

they know they don't get to do another activity until the attitude at home has improved. and then they will get one activity that can easily be walked away from in case attitude goes south again.

 

once I got through my son's head that his job in life is school and fun will happen when he's done with school he has improved. He also understands now that some subjects he will hate but have to do them. He took it upon himself to do the 'yucky' ones first daily. ;-)

 

I will say that it's not perfect this year. I have to do the weekly 'talk' to remind him of his purpose in life right now. But not having the activities has helped. at this point he has to change his attitude long term to gain an activity and he's working at it. It will be a worthwhile goal. :-)

[Haiku]

I wanted to add that my dd participates in an activity that she really loves ... but for some reason, frequently when it is time to go she complains that she doesn't want to go. I always tell her that she doesn't have to go, but since I paid a lot of money for the activity up front, she needs to pay me for the missed session if she chooses not to go. I don't threaten her with it. I give her the option of going or paying. She makes the decision. In the end she has never decided to pay. ;)

 

Tara

[jujsky]

That's what we do. No school, no activities. We don't have it carry over as you're suggesting. If school isn't done on a non-activity day, there is no TV, no toys, and no fun activities until school is done. It's never come to this, but if school isn't completed even with all of those punishments, the school work would be added onto that of the next day, which would surely result in no activities. I've found it pretty effective! It took me awhile to get there. At first I was doing the same thing you were -- stressing that school wasn't done, and then stressing to get them to their activities. Don't beat yourself up over that. What's done is done. Just move forward from here with your new plan in place.

 

Oh, and fully expect them to test you. DS did, and I had to enforce the "no activity" rule. Even worse, it was an activity (drama) that the kids do together, so DD got to go in, and DS had to sit in the car with me for an hour and work on his math. He was NOT a happy camper, but he knew I was serious.

[TxMama]

Good plan!

 

We did something similar here when my older 2 were about your kids' age. We had a big family meeting and even had a contract drawn up for everyone to sign....just so there was not any confusion on the details. :tongue_smilie:

 

We also had a plan on # of misses before we dropped the activity. It worked very well but be prepared for some fireworks the first time you don't take them somewhere because they didn't finish their schoolwork or due to their attitude. You will be surprised which activities they are willing to keep and those they are willing to let go without any drama. After the first missed activity my kids were willing to do whatever it took to keep up the favorite ones.

 

I liked having the contract because I could calmly refer to it when cancelling activities. I'd suggest you and dh make sure you both are on the same page on which activities are options for dropping. My youngest son would be willing to drop speech therapy but that's not an option. KWIM?

 

So just make sure you work out the details and it'll work!

 

Best of luck, mama!

Edited November 16, 2009 by Wendy B.

[Haiku]

My youngest son would be willing to drop speech therapy but that's not an option. KWIM?

 

 

And how! My 15 year old always volunteers to miss counseling when we talk about restricting activities due to attitude. :D

 

Tara

[myfunnybunch]

I would probably handle it a little differently, mostly because I consider our activities a part of school and because I h-a-t-e paying for activities then not getting anything for the $. And you know your family best, so ymmv, and all of the usual disclaimers. Do what works for you, of course. :)

 

We have mostly afternoon activities this year, which means we're often trying to get some school work done before we go out the door. There was fussing and grumbling and dawdling, and not all of it on the part of the children. Here's what I did:

 

**I changed my attitude. I realized that the rushed feeling is coming from my adult sense of time and my mental checklist. The idea of not being on time or not finishing was making *me* feel harried and frustrated and I was transmitting that to my kids, and when I fuss and grumble, they are going to fuss and grumble. I still believe in the importance of being on time and of completing the school work, but I use my energy more wisely by transmitting a sense of calm and can-do instead of frustration. (Well....my ideal self does. My real self is working diligently on this issue and sloooooowlly improving. Some days. Heh.)

 

**We dropped an activity to make sure we had more time for schoolwork.

 

**I made a daily subject schedule for each child. This helped enormously with my middle son in particular. He can see what needs to be accomplished and when he will be finished.

 

**Counter-intuitive, maybe, but I made sure to include more break time into activity days. It allows my active boys to mentally rest, physically wiggle, and come back to the table fresh.

 

**I set a timer for some subjects: Math, grammar and writing. If ds (8) is not done with a lesson by the end of the set time, we set it aside and move on, and return to it during free time or the next day depending on whether he was dawdling or diligent.

 

**Our typical schedule is school--activity--play. Now if ds do not finish school work before the activity, it is waiting when we get home. My oldest boy (8), the only to whom this really applies, has had to do schoolwork in the evening only a handful of times and surprised me by doing it cheerfully, quickly and well each time.

 

**And, a little thing that made a huge difference: I make sure we locate shoes, socks, coats, piano bag BEFORE it's time to leave. That way when it's time to go, we go without "Where is my.....?" and "I can't find...."

 

It's gotten better. :) We still get frustrated, but all of us are getting out the door AND getting school done more quickly and, most importantly, more cheerfully.

 

Cat

[Tess in the Burbs]

I like this! when my dd took ballet(she begged to take it) most weeks I had to convince her to go! LOL, but I love the idea of them paying me back for skipping!

[3lilreds in NC]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses!

 

I know that I will *hate* losing money if they don't get to go. I like the idea if saying that if they miss X number of times, we drop the activity.

 

I need to be more disciplined about getting school done, too. I know that. I've been having a hard time with that since my accident. I just want to hide. Not the best approach. :D

 

I will talk with dh and we will hash out the details, and then have a talk with the girls. Thanks again, ladies!

[eternalknot]

Dh suggested that I tell the girls that if they don't get school done on a given day, they don't get to go to their activities. This would carry over, so for example, the child who doesn't have a Monday activity would lose out on Tuesday's horse riding lesson if they don't catch up before class time on Tuesday. Does this sound reasonable to you?

 

It seems reasonable from an adult mindset. My own kids are admittedly dramatic, and would get caught up in the carrying over before it was even an issue: "BUt you know I'm not going to do the work in time to go, now I have to miss TWO classes??!" The whole point could be lost, as they would be focused more on the Mean Parent taking something enjoyable away from them than they were on seeing how their attitudes are responsible. I think perception is key in truly getting the kids to own their behaviors and see how THEY are then a very big part of the solution.

 

Time managment isn't intuitive, it's a skill that must be learned. I'm not sure it is always best taught with a "First A, then B" mentality. Truth is, I sometimes do "B before A" - like checking email with my morning tea and letting the b'fast dishes sit until lunch. Or hitting the gym for an AM class, and saving my work for the afternoon. My kids notice, and it's a fair observation IMO. So long as A gets done (and done well), I'm good. I extend the same opportunity to my kids - if A gets done (well), I don't fret too much about the order.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I'd have my kids finish up the season, and we'd re-evaluate before we committed to another season/project/year of involvement. It gives them a bit of time to try and make everything work, but failing that it doesn't leave a team/group hanging ... you simply do not re-new the commitment once the season is over.

 

Two years ago we took a season off from baseball. It wasn't a tit-for-tat kind of punishment, it was a "this is the problem: time management" and "what is the solution?: reduce the extras so there is more time to manage (the afterfall from poor behavior related to) school." It was a we all get the same 24 hours a day, how do you want to spend yours? How do I want to spend mine? What can we do so that each of us is spending time doing our unnegotiated tasks (the home, for me; school, for him) whilst still having time for our desired tasks and extras?

 

It's a life lesson, an important one. We only needed to take that one season off, and I made sure that we kept his skills up at home. On days we finished school easily, there was time to play catch or hit the batting cages. There was time for extracurriculars :) he was seven that year, and he got it pretty quickly.

 

Another thing I've done (my son is now 9) is to have a more open-ended schedule. This is partially because I travel midweek for work, but it has had the bonus benefit of making him more aware of how important it is to manage his time smartly. On Sunday I give him the next week's workload. I give him a general outline of what work to do on any given day, more as a suggestion than a requirement. I spend the first 1-2 days teaching the material; the rest of the week he works independently on his own timeline (with help as needed).

 

Some weeks he will do one subject per day (e.g., all of the week's math on TUES and all of the week's writing on WED). Some weeks he will take a "mental health day" off midweek and do two days' worth of work on THURS/FRI. Most weeks he follows my schedule. All work needs to be in by Friday after lunch. What isn't done by then, gets done RIGHT THEN (Friday morning I'd have made arrangments for my younger child to be elsewhere after lunch so I could give my son undivided attention for the inevitable drama, if it looked like I needed to). We don't stop until it's done. The weekend doesn't start until it's done. And "done" doesn't mean "rushed through" - it means done to our usual standards of legibility and expected output.

 

We've had to do this twice - the first was so dramatic, I looked around the room to see if they were handing out Oscars. He was drained for his soccer game the next day, and played poorly. His teammates and coach got on him for his performance. He was tired all that day; little cranky, too. Same as me when I don't get all of my work or even mom-jobs done on a good time table :D The other time was mostly drama-free because he knew I'd follow through on making him complete his schoolwork on my terms (at the table, no music, no distractions - versus his terms during the week of doing it wherever, with music and breaks between subjects). He was done by bedtime Friday night and the weekend went off without a hitch.

 

He's nine, and is now very aware of his time and how to manage it. Like me, he still has good and poor weeks (!) but the overall lesson has been taught; the skill, learned.

[3lilreds in NC]

 

I'd have my kids finish up the season, and we'd re-evaluate before we committed to another season/project/year of involvement. It gives them a bit of time to try and make everything work, but failing that it doesn't leave a team/group hanging ... you simply do not re-new the commitment once the season is over.

 

 

 

This is a good point. We might be moving soon, and that would be a good time to sit back and re-evaluate. We will have to stop the current activities, at least, and find new ones in our new area (if it happens) so perhaps we will take some time, settle in, and then worry about activities once we're up and running in the new place.

 

If we don't move, it will require more thought. I am not good at time management myself so I can see why my children are not. I need to get a good schedule going for me and then work on one for them too.

 

Thanks!!

[razorbackmama]

I have had to threaten something similar, and I am VERY willing to follow through, if need be. I have told my kids that if they cannot be kind to each other then they will have zero interactions with outside children, PERIOD, until they do. That means: no playing with the neighbor kids, no youth group, no AWANA, no Taekwon-Do, no playdates, no Sunday School, no children's church. The ONLY thing they would be allowed to do is their music lessons, because the only person they interact with there is their music teacher (no children). Fortunatley for TKD we pay by the month, so I could just take time off for the month and not have to be out the money. AWANA is paid for up front, but I guess if I had to implement this I could have them say their verses to a leader outside of AWANA time (my closest friend here is the commander's wife, so it'd be very easy to do) so they could continue with it.

 

Fortunately the two times I've had to threaten this, they have wisened up a bit, but they know I am dead serious.

[Ellie]

You have outside activities every single day? And cranky dc? not getting their academic at-home studies finished?

 

Yeah. In my house, that would mean no outside activities for a loooong time.

 

Barb Shelton, in her high school book, quotes from Marilyn Howshall (sp?? I'll go check) about how the more we are gone from home the less satisfied we are to be there, and the less we are able to accomplish when we are there. This is so true.

 

So, yes, if I had dc as young as yours, they'd all be staying home for a looong time, unless the activities were way late in the afternoon, after, oh, 3 or 4. And if attitudes didn't improve, there wouldn't be anything except church. Sort of like tomato staking writ large.

[nmoira]

What's your daily school schedule like?

 

Two ideas for saving activities you've already paid for: Have you tried starting earlier, and earlier to make sure you "have enough time to get everything done?" You can also assign additional chores (from your own list of chores) to help get back your time that they've wasted -- using a stopwatch to keep track of cumulative whiny/argumentative time is a particularly effective visual aid. Or a chess clock, if you'd like to keep track individually. ;)

[FriedClams]

As for the general gist of your question - I would stop just about any activity - school included - to address character and heart issues. I would be very clear with the kids about your expectations and the consequences. I would make them as directly related as possible. For example - dawdling - miss lunch while finishing work or work in the afternoon until done. If you miss the activity that day - so be it. If it's respect - directly address it and then have them model and remodel appropriate behavior. Continues - eat lunch alone since we can't treat others respectfully. Etc, etc. For me, training my kid's hearts is so much more important than anything else and well worth the time to address each and every time. For ideas - Creative Correction has lots of great out-of-the-box ideas to address heart issues as well as For Instruction in Righteousness.

[Sasharowan]

I give the entire weeks work on Mon. and they are responsible for having it done on Fri. although I will check over it a few times during the day to keep them on track and they have to hand over things like grammar and math fro checking when finished. Any uncompleted work is finished on weekends with Dad supervising. Attitudes are sent to work in their rooms with help only coming in answer to polite requests. We don't miss paid for activities for attitudes but will schedule in exra ball practice during the day since the extra exercise seems to help.