Don't get on the bus!!

[emeraldjoy]

We have some very dear friends who own an herbal supplement business.

The last thing he tells all of his clients is "Don't get on the bus", with a chuckle.

but seriously,

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

[5knights3maidens]

:iagree:

[Jen500]

W

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

I think your comparison of getting the vaccine to genocide is getting on a different bus.

[PineFarmMom]

Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

 

I agree with everything you said. The bolded part I especially agree with.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Texas T

[emeraldjoy]

(no snark, I swear) You made my first laugh of the day. Thanks.

I think you may have missed my point though. Sorry about that. e

I think your comparison of getting the vaccine to genocide is getting on a different bus.

Edited October 24, 2009 by emeraldjoy

[Murphy101]

:iagree:

it the double edged sword of humanities constant striving for hope.

We tend to fool ourselves into thinking history won't repeat itself.

And that makes us trust govt more than we ever should.

[tiffanyl]

We have some very dear friends who own an herbal supplement business.

The last thing he tells all of his clients is "Don't get on the bus", with a chuckle.

but seriously,

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

:iagree:My thoughts exactly.

[fivetails]

I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice.

 

I wouldn't put 'pediatricians' in the same category as 'newspapers' - a medical doctor has a lot more knowledge/education about influenza/etc than a newspaper reporter.

[brightside]

:iagree:

[lovemy9kids]

I agree. People will give up all kinds of freedom when they are full of fear. It greatly benefits those in power don't you think.

[creekland]

What scares you controls you. It can be a snake, disease, gov't, or anything else. It can be a real fear - or imagined.

 

And yes, I do think the majority of people go along with the crowd... that has been proven again and again. For many, I'm thinking they don't really have the capability (or talent) to think for themselves. The crowd they join up with might differ (politically, religiously, economically, etc), but nonetheless, the leaders of the crowd do the thinking for the group. It gets scary when the leaders have ill intent - from Jim Jones to Hitler and many in between.

[OHGrandma]

I agree. People will give up all kinds of freedom when they are full of fear. It greatly benefits those in power don't you think.

Yes, it does.

[kalanamak]

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

 

:lol: Sugar being as dangerous as groundnuts was an afternoon shower compared to this tempest.

 

"Our society" thrives on fear? Try a society where there is a fad of men tying rocks to their genitalia because someone started a rumor they would disappear inside their bodies at the wrath of some deity. I'm not making this up.

[emeraldjoy]

Yes, they certainly are trained and educated in different areas. However, I think it is important to empower people to think for themselves, not just do it because the pediatrician said so. Historically there have been problems with pharmacy companies and ethical issues for example.

I wouldn't put 'pediatricians' in the same category as 'newspapers' - a medical doctor has a lot more knowledge/education about influenza/etc than a newspaper reporter.

[emeraldjoy]

Very nicely put Martha. thanks.

e

:iagree:

it the double edged sword of humanities constant striving for hope.

We tend to fool ourselves into thinking history won't repeat itself.

And that makes us trust govt more than we ever should.

[emeraldjoy]

Yep, I do think.

I agree. People will give up all kinds of freedom when they are full of fear. It greatly benefits those in power don't you think.

[emeraldjoy]

What scares you controls you. It can be a snake, disease, gov't, or anything else. It can be a real fear - or imagined.

 

 

so, so true.

[emeraldjoy]

Interesting.

:lol: Sugar being as dangerous as groundnuts was an afternoon shower compared to this tempest.

 

"Our society" thrives on fear? Try a society where there is a fad of men tying rocks to their genitalia because someone started a rumor they would disappear inside their bodies at the wrath of some deity. I'm not making this up.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

 

I find your comparison to genocide or other EVILS and H1N1 vaccines to be really ugly and offensive.

 

Many people HAVE researched and still think that vaccines are a good idea.

 

The thought process presented in the OP is similar to, "I'm an atheist and why are all these other people still christian? Why can't they just DO THE RESEARCH and come to the same brilliant conclusion that I have?" (ditto the "I"m a christian and why isn't everybody else?"

 

Research is good. Coming to your own conclusions is good, but implying that people who don't agree with you are just "getting on the bus" is offensive.

[LauraGB]

Try a society where there is a fad of men tying rocks to their genitalia because someone started a rumor they would disappear inside their bodies at the wrath of some deity. I'm not making this up.

:001_huh:

As much as I'd like to, I cannot bring myself to google that to see what you are talking about!

[emeraldjoy]

I really think that you missed the point and I am sorry about that.

This is not a pro-vaccine or against vaccine debate. In fact, I don't even know where I stand as far as the vaccine itself goes, truly. Some days I am all for, others I am all against.

More than anything, I am fascinated by the bigger picture and human behavior and history and such.

Please don't be offended.

Yeseterday in my town there was a vaccine clinic and people were waiting in line for 5 hours to get the vaccine for their children; some of the time in the rain and the rest in a parking garage.

The reason? Earlier in the week there was a 8 month old death that was reported related to H1N1. It came out in the papers and over the news that a local baby died from complications of this flu. People got scare, very scared.

It ended up as a mistake. He died from meningitis, not the flu.

THIS is what I am talking about.

e

 

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

 

I find your comparison to genocide or other EVILS and H1N1 vaccines to be really ugly and offensive.

 

Many people HAVE researched and still think that vaccines are a good idea.

 

The thought process presented in the OP is similar to, "I'm an atheist and why are all these other people still christian? Why can't they just DO THE RESEARCH and come to the same brilliant conclusion that I have?" (ditto the "I"m a christian and why isn't everybody else?"

 

Research is good. Coming to your own conclusions is good, but implying that people who don't agree with you are just "getting on the bus" is offensive.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Any one who follows the crowd simply out of fear, not out of knowledge is "getting on the bus". The problem is that you can't tell from looking at a line of people, how many of them are simply doing it out of fear and peer (or newspaper) pressure and how many are doing it out of reasoned intent.

 

Did you go down the line and interview all those people? Were they wailing loudly and wringing their hands in visible fear? You are taking a valid point about making choices with knowledge and applying it to a situation where you don't have enough knowledge.

[emeraldjoy]

Absolutely, I cannot tell and I am making judgements without knowing for sure. This is true.

However, it was not a post about the intention of these folks in a line for a shot, per se. Heck I could easily be in that line. It is about the bigger picture. It is about human behavior. It is about the future.

Any one who follows the crowd simply out of fear, not out of knowledge is "getting on the bus". The problem is that you can't tell from looking at a line of people, how many of them are simply doing it out of fear and peer (or newspaper) pressure and how many are doing it out of reasoned intent.

 

Did you go down the line and interview all those people? Were they wailing loudly and wringing their hands in visible fear? You are taking a valid point about making choices with knowledge and applying it to a situation where you don't have enough knowledge.

[gingersmom]

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly.

 

You lost me after this.......

 

what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly.

 

Since when did people in Nazi Germany willingly get on buses?

[Jumping In Puddles]

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

 

I find your comparison to genocide or other EVILS and H1N1 vaccines to be really ugly and offensive.

 

Many people HAVE researched and still think that vaccines are a good idea.

 

The thought process presented in the OP is similar to, "I'm an atheist and why are all these other people still christian? Why can't they just DO THE RESEARCH and come to the same brilliant conclusion that I have?" (ditto the "I"m a christian and why isn't everybody else?"

 

Research is good. Coming to your own conclusions is good, but implying that people who don't agree with you are just "getting on the bus" is offensive.

 

:iagree:

 

You "wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. " and you made an assumption about all those people. Maybe they did their own research and realized that they should get the vaccine. My family is getting the vaccine and I did my research.

 

The long lines are not just because of "hysteria" but because you can't get the vaccine everywhere and the vaccine/mist is in short supply. If every doctor's office had one and every clinic, then I'm sure, like the regular flu vax year after year you wouldn't even know people were getting it.

[Perry]

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

He's driving a different bus.

[Laurie4b]

We have some very dear friends who own an herbal supplement business.

The last thing he tells all of his clients is "Don't get on the bus", with a chuckle.

but seriously,

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

I'm curious as to what your evidence is that those who were in the next room to get vaccines had not done their research and simply arrived at a different conclusion than you did? What specifically did they do that convinced you that each of them would do ANYTHING to get the vaccine? Did you interview them? Or are you jumping to assumptions?

 

For those of you who agreed without asking about evidence or the OP's source of authority, isn't that "jumping on the bus" of this thread? Isn't that exactly what you are worrying that others do?

[tiffanyl]

Here's a new news article "CBS reveal that swine flu cases seriously overestimated"

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/24/CBS-Reveals-that-Swine-Flu-Cases-Seriously-Overestimated.aspx

[emeraldjoy]

Because I am a bit more familiar with the history of Cambodia I will speak to this.

During the Pol Pot regime the biggest most damaging and fragmenting thing to happen was the "media", "officials" convinced the citizens of Phnom Pehn that America was going to be bombing the city within hours. People were afraid, they were ready for a change, they wanted something better and really thought that if they listened to who they were suppose then they would be safe.

Within hours the city was evacuated. Not on "busses" necessarily but in whatever way they could. Most valued belonging were packed up and people took off. Once they left their homes (jumped on the busses) they became extremely vulnerable. This was virtually the beginning of the end for them. Eventually many ended up buried in the Killing Fields. The trips to the Killing Field were often done under the guise of rounding up educated people to help the cause.

I am pretty certain similar happenings occured during WWII.

e

You lost me after this.......

 

what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly.

 

Since when did people in Nazi Germany willingly get on buses?

[emeraldjoy]

Again, I am so sorry you missed the point.

Not trying to be offensive.

e

:iagree:

 

You "wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. " and you made an assumption about all those people. Maybe they did their own research and realized that they should get the vaccine. My family is getting the vaccine and I did my research.

 

The long lines are not just because of "hysteria" but because you can't get the vaccine everywhere and the vaccine/mist is in short supply. If every doctor's office had one and every clinic, then I'm sure, like the regular flu vax year after year you wouldn't even know people were getting it.

[emeraldjoy]

The point was lost.

so sorry about that.

e

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

He's driving a different bus.

[LauraGB]

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

e

 

I think what you were looking for is a philosophical conversation about the Follow the Leader, Fear Based Mentality aspect of human nature, right? And how It can ultimately bring about the fall that may not have been otherwise? And you used the above analogy to give a visual to your point?

 

I agree with you, and it is interesting to observe this in all different situations, from health to politics to weather to... I find myself involved in being a part of it on occasion and on other occasions to be an observer. Both are unsettling, but very interesting.

Edited October 24, 2009 by LauraGB

[Perry]

Here's a new news article "CBS reveal that swine flu cases seriously overestimated"

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/24/CBS-Reveals-that-Swine-Flu-Cases-Seriously-Overestimated.aspx

 

Effect Measure wrote about this recently:

 

CBS News on swine flu testing: Fail!

 

snip

CBS's own investigation found that in all 50 states, prior to stopping testing in July, lab-confirmed cases showed that most specimens were not influenza. As I noted, since other viruses cause ILI during non-flu season this isn't too surprising. What was surprising was the amount of influenza there was at a time when we expect to see very little. Now that flu season is here, the chances that an ILI is truly influenza (causally defined) is much greater. And frankly, there is no possibility of testing all ILI cases for swine flu. There will be millions of cases of ILI and they can't all be tested and most won't even be seen by anyone. Moreover, during the period of the CBS "study" many people were having specimens taken that would not ordinarily have seen a doctor. The data they looked at were from all 50 states (and we don't know what data it was or what they counted or whether they even calculated things correctly) and were mostly cases that were not epidemiologically linked.

[emeraldjoy]

I think I addressed this earlier.

Yep, I made assumtions sort of.

Don't get caught up in the details though.

You truly did miss the point.

No intention to offend.

e

I'm curious as to what your evidence is that those who were in the next room to get vaccines had not done their research and simply arrived at a different conclusion than you did? What specifically did they do that convinced you that each of them would do ANYTHING to get the vaccine? Did you interview them? Or are you jumping to assumptions?

 

For those of you who agreed without asking about evidence or the OP's source of authority, isn't that "jumping on the bus" of this thread? Isn't that exactly what you are worrying that others do?

[Jen500]

Because I am a bit more familiar with the history of Cambodia I will speak to this.

During the Pol Pot regime the biggest most damaging and fragmenting thing to happen was the "media", "officials" convinced the citizens of Phnom Pehn that America was going to be bombing the city within hours. People were afraid, they were ready for a change, they wanted something better and really thought that if they listened to who they were suppose then they would be safe.

Within hours the city was evacuated. Not on "busses" necessarily but in whatever way they could. Most valued belonging were packed up and people took off. Once they left their homes (jumped on the busses) they became extremely vulnerable. This was virtually the beginning of the end for them. Eventually many ended up buried in the Killing Fields. The trips to the Killing Field were often done under the guise of rounding up educated people to help the cause.

I am pretty certain similar happenings occured during WWII.

e

 

So, you believe that the flu vaccine is actually a plot to kill everyone?

[Perry]

The point was lost.

so sorry about that.

e

I really think I understand your point. I just disagree with it.

[asta]

You lost me after this.......

 

what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly.

 

Since when did people in Nazi Germany willingly get on buses?

 

Well... I knew quite a few people who worked at and lived around the headquarters of the Luftwaffen in Germany during WW2. We had interesting conversations. The propaganda machine was so thorough that they l.i.t.e.r.a.l.l.y. did not know they were not conquering the world (much less losing Germany) until the Allies physically walked onto the air field.

 

They got on that bus, willingly, every single day.

 

 

But that's not the OPs point. She is talking about sociology. About basic herd behaviors and what drives them. Historically, fear does drive behavior during epidemics (and during a great many other things).

 

There are some good books out about this:

 

Rats, Lice and History (a biography of Typhus, but really, much more)

Guns, Germs and Steel

 

 

a

[emeraldjoy]

Nope.

So, you believe that the flu vaccine is actually a plot to kill everyone?

[Murphy101]

this is what I thought as well.

Totally didn't see anything offensive or even anti-vax

:001_huh:

 

I think what you were looking for is a philosophical conversation about the Follow the Leader, Fear Based Mentality aspect of human nature, right? And how It can ultimately bring about the fall that may not have been otherwise? And you used the above analogy to give a visual to your point?

 

I agree with you, and it is interesting to observe this in all different situations, from health to politics to weather to... I find myself involved in being a part of it on occasion and on other occasions to be an observer. Both are unsettling, but very interesting.

 

Well... I knew quite a few people who worked at and lived around the headquarters of the Luftwaffen in Germany during WW2. We had interesting conversations. The propaganda machine was so thorough that they l.i.t.e.r.a.l.l.y. did not know they were not conquering the world (much less losing Germany) until the Allies physically walked onto the air field.

 

They got on that bus, willingly, every single day.

 

 

But that's not the OPs point. She is talking about sociology. About basic herd behaviors and what drives them. Historically, fear does drive behavior during epidemics (and during a great many other things).

 

There are some good books out about this:

 

Rats, Lice and History (a biography of Typhus, but really, much more)

Guns, Germs and Steel

 

 

a

[tricia]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Not confused at all but agree completely with what you said. Heck, we are about to the point in this society where we need an "official" just to take us to the grocery store to show us what foods are good for us. :lurk5:

[emeraldjoy]

Yes.

Thanks for summing this up so nicely. Sometimes I know I can be confusing.

e

I think what you were looking for is a philosophical conversation about the Follow the Leader, Fear Based Mentality aspect of human nature, right? And how It can ultimately bring about the fall that may not have been otherwise? And you used the above analogy to give a visual to your point?

 

I agree with you, and it is interesting to observe this in all different situations, from health to politics to weather to... I find myself involved in being a part of it on occasion and on other occasions to be an observer. Both are unsettling, but very interesting.

[emeraldjoy]

Thanks so much for this Asta.

I knew someone would have more concrete information than I did on this particular area of history.

emerald

Well... I knew quite a few people who worked at and lived around the headquarters of the Luftwaffen in Germany during WW2. We had interesting conversations. The propaganda machine was so thorough that they l.i.t.e.r.a.l.l.y. did not know they were not conquering the world (much less losing Germany) until the Allies physically walked onto the air field.

 

They got on that bus, willingly, every single day.

 

 

But that's not the OPs point. She is talking about sociology. About basic herd behaviors and what drives them. Historically, fear does drive behavior during epidemics (and during a great many other things).

 

There are some good books out about this:

 

Rats, Lice and History (a biography of Typhus, but really, much more)

Guns, Germs and Steel

 

 

a

[LauraGB]

Yes.

Thanks for summing this up so nicely. Sometimes I know I can be confusing.

e

Well, good. It looked like a very interesting topic and I was looking forward to participating once my headache goes away and I can think clearly.

Thanks for posting it and giving us something to think about today :).

[hillfarm]

I wouldn't put 'pediatricians' in the same category as 'newspapers' - a medical doctor has a lot more knowledge/education about influenza/etc than a newspaper reporter.

 

And yet, how often have we seen people with either real or falsified MD degrees parading themselves and their "knowledge" in the media? IMO, neither the word newpaper nor pediatrician is any guarantee of validity. And when money, power, or fame are in the offing otherwise reliable people sometimes do some very reprehensible things.

 

For us, we have been non-bus riders for so long that I occasionally wonder if we would even fit through the door anymore. Homeschooling is just another manifestation of my complete and utter lack of regard for what the masses are doing or being told to do.

Edited October 24, 2009 by hillfarm

[ThatCyndiGirl]

And yet, how often have we seen people with either real or falsified MD degrees parading themselves and their "knowledge" in the media? IMO, neither the word newpaper nor pediatrician is any guarantee of validity. And when money, power, or fame are in the offing otherwise reliable people sometimes do some very reprehensible things.

 

 

Dr. Mercola comes to mind.....

[Wendi]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Not confused at all but agree completely with what you said. Heck, we are about to the point in this society where we need an "official" just to take us to the grocery store to show us what foods are good for us. :lurk5:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/20/AR2009102003421.html?hpid=moreheadlines

 

The head of the FDA thinks it's her responsibility to help us figure out what is good for us. (The labels on the back of packages take too long to read, apparently.)

 

Wendi

[Wendi]

There's an episode of the old "Daniel Boone" TV show that illustrates your point. A newcomer to Boonesborough uses concern about smallpox to quickly take control of the settlement and attempt to drive out the Boones. The people are all willing to listen to him completely because they're so terrified of smallpox. We had some good conversations when we watched it.

 

This also reminds me of a quote:

 

"Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before."

 

This is the way those in power think. They can take advantage of the fear and desire for "change" and resolving a crisis, and do things that the people would normally object to.

 

Wendi

[Perry]

Historically there have been problems with pharmacy companies and ethical issues for example.

True, but those issues apply to nutritional supplements as well.

 

 

Tryptophan

 

Eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) is an incurable and sometimes fatal flu-like neurological condition that is believed to have been caused by ingestion of poorly produced L-tryptophan supplements.[1][2]

 

Eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome was first recognized after the doctors of 3 American women with mysterious symptoms talked together in 1989. However, many people became ill as long as 2-3 years before the illness was reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in November 1989. Rheumatologists experienced a large surge of new patients with mysterious symptoms during this period. It is possible that as many as 60,000 individuals became ill from using L-tryptophan. Additionally, when first marketed, 37 people died. Some epidemiologist studies[5][6][7] traced the cause to consumption of L-tryptophan from a single Japanese manufacturer, Showa Denko.[8] The company supplied the majority of L-tryptophan to the United States under various brand names. There was evidence that new batches of L-tryptophan may have been improperly prepared.

 

[mommyrooch]

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

 

I find your comparison to genocide or other EVILS and H1N1 vaccines to be really ugly and offensive.

 

Many people HAVE researched and still think that vaccines are a good idea.

 

The thought process presented in the OP is similar to, "I'm an atheist and why are all these other people still christian? Why can't they just DO THE RESEARCH and come to the same brilliant conclusion that I have?" (ditto the "I"m a christian and why isn't everybody else?"

 

Research is good. Coming to your own conclusions is good, but implying that people who don't agree with you are just "getting on the bus" is offensive.

 

Once again :iagree: with you. ;)

 

I don't know about others but I have personally put hours upon hours of research into vaccines. Every time a new vaccine is offered I spend countless hours researching the pros and cons. It is because of those countless hours that I have personally decided to get our family vaccinated for H1N1, as well as various other vaccines. It most certainly is not because we are just "getting on the bus."

 

This kind of thinking is also certainly not limited to vaccines. This can apply to to the kinds of clothes people wear, their religions views, (as Cyndi pointed out) their job decisions, their parenting decisions, their marital decisions, their friendship decisions, and the list goes on and on.

 

Is it not obvious that this kind of thinking can be (and most likely is) extremely offensive in so many ways?

 

While this kind of thinking can apply to some it certainly does not mean that it applies to everyone. Just because someone follows a different path does NOT mean that they are ill informend or are following the herd. To imply so (as this salesman does) is simply offensive. Not only is it offensive to those that do make educated decisions on things but also to the countless numbers of people that have truly died and had their lives ripped apart because they really did "get on the bus."

 

What a horrible and offensive comparison. If some salesman ever said something like that to me I would NEVER buy anything from them, EVER!

[Murphy101]

along the lines of the bus/train and willingly getting on.. the first thign that came to mind is the scene in the movie fiddler on the roof, where the father is at the bus/train stop with his eldest dd who is willingly going to be with her dh at a work camp. She misses him. She is scared. She is worried. The not knowing is eating at her. Her father has heard stories about the camps. He doesn't want her to go. But she does. I'm betting more than one spouse did this. And I'm sure part of that was that they had no idea of the horrors to come. We always hope. Even in the face of knowing that we shouldn't b/c not hoping is worse.

 

And yes, people do need to rmeember that just because it doesn't need a script to get it doesn't mean it is safe.

 

as for the FDA...

I think they are almost useless.

 

labels do not fight obesity.

not eating it regardless of the label and going for a walk fights obesity.

the problem isn't labels.

 

if it was, the problem could be solves easily by saying:

blue labels for unprocessed, healthy foods (fresh sweet potatos)

yellow labels for items that aren't unprocessed, but aren't bad for you (canned/frozen but not sweetened/treated with corn syrup or dye or whatever sweet potatos)

red labels for junk you can eat but don't really get any or only pure puck marginal health benefit from (potato chips)

 

just a dot on the front of the package would be enough

but even so I bet it wouldn't make a difference