Please help me understand this about Singapore math....

[HappyGrace]

Ds6 is very mathy-has done Rightstart A (in about three weeks) and about half of R/S B. I switched him to Singapore and he flew through 1A in about a week (text and parts of workbook, no HIG). Now I got Singapore 1B and the HIG, and after doing the first two chapters, which were VERY basic, it says they need to know their math facts to ten before going on. :confused:

 

When was I supposed to teach/drill these? :confused: He can add quickly in his head, but I would not say he knows the facts cold.

 

I can do games, etc., with him to learn the facts, that's not the problem. It's just that I switched to Sing from RightStart (which I also did up to level C with older dd and she never learned the facts and had many gaps) to avoid this type of conceptual jumping.

 

I wish there was just a "thinking" math program that was a little more linear, if that's the right word-like that we could just keep moving and not have to park and figure out what to do next.

 

I'd get the Extra Practice, etc., but I don't want to put more money into this than I already have-the HIG, text, wkbks and IPs were expensive enough when you break it down into the A section and the B section for each!

 

I guess I'm kind of venting. Sorry this is so convoluted!

[HappyGrace]

forgot to mention we use Standard edition.

 

I am also starting to supplement with MEP level 2 and RightStart B and we also do math card games, etc.

 

I will probably just end up parking where we are for awhile and working on supplements. I guess my beef is that I wish there was just something like Singapore but that we could just progress through and NOT have to stop and supplement!

[AudreyTN]

Throughout the 1A HIG it does suggest when a child should know which facts... if I remember correctly.

 

We are just continually drilling. I personally think that it's more important to know the how and why, than memorizing answers.

[kalanamak]

Now I got Singapore 1B and the HIG, and after doing the first two chapters, which were VERY basic, it says they need to know their math facts to ten before going on. :confused:

 

 

I chewed and worried over this, too. When I finished 1 A and B last March I concentrated on learning math facts. We played games, we did flash cards, we spent a LOT of time on math. I taught all the attacks, I patiently repeated:

 

(the problem is 7+8)

What's 7+7?

Kiddo says 14

Well, if 7+7 is 14, then 7+8 must be.....

 

over and over and over. We did Sum Swamp, Addition Facts Go Fish, the triangular flash cards. The facts he knew, he knew (doubles)...everything else was a varying state of deer-in-the-headlights.

 

One day I snapped. I raised my voice and slapped my hand down on the table and told him he "would" know his facts. I felt awful and could barely sleep and dragged my sorry self here, and was reassured he could move on in Singapore math with an addition table at his side (which filled me with dread because he took forever using those).

 

(Drumroll) The next day I got out the texts for the first time in 3 months. He knew his math facts. He knew them cold. He said things like the "thinking hints" I'd been repeating for months. :blink:

 

So, two points: you can move ahead without those math facts and don't make the reinforcements so much fun your child is willing to ACT incapable just to keep the games coming. You may say "my child would never do that". Just what I used to say.

[johnandtinagilbert]

As someone who has used Singapore all the way through 6B with 3 children, I would encourage you to keep moving with 2 things in mind:

 

1. Daily practice 10 or 15 min/day will fill in those gaps.

2. As dc learns those facts, teach dc about re-arranging to make easier groups. I.e. if you have a 9, make it a 10 then see what's left. If you have a 4, make it a five...whatever groups are easier to add and are already memorized. This really helps with place value, which he will certainly need for any math program.

 

Personally, I am a fan of drilling and games. There is value in whatever way is necessary for memorization and it really is, at least from my personal experience, easier to memorize as you learn the why, then to get to 5th or 6th grade and not have your basic facts memorized.

 

HTH,

[The Governess]

I am going through 1A right now with the HIG. The HIG has you drill math facts in a variety of ways during the units on number bonds, addition, and subtraction. There are flash cards in the back of the guide for you to copy and cut out and there are examples of games to play. The guide also suggests that you don't move on to the unit on addition until the student has their 0-10 number bonds down.

 

We are using the Intensive Practice workbook and Challenging Word Problems in addition to the text and workbook, so we are going through the program more slowly. I'm also having her do all the tests, it's nice because it's teaching her how to do problems independently and there are cumulative tests so she gets a few review questions every so often. We will finish unit 3 tomorrow and have spent 6 weeks total so far. We will probably take 2 weeks to get through the subtraction unit and then pick up the pace after that.

 

I highly recommend the IP workbook and Challenging Word Problems, there were a lot more questions in these using mental math (not always objects for them to count on the page) that dd couldn't have done without her addition facts. They also phrase questions in a lot of different ways so answers require more thought. You may want to look into getting the 1A IP workbook and/or the Challenging Word Problems (which can be used with 1A and 1B) and going through them before going forward in 1B.

[Jumping In Puddles]

\

 

When was I supposed to teach/drill these? :confused: He can add quickly in his head, but I would not say he knows the facts cold.

 

I can do games, etc., with him to learn the facts, that's not the problem. It's just that I switched to Sing from RightStart (which I also did up to level C with older dd and she never learned the facts and had many gaps) to avoid this type of conceptual jumping.

 

 

 

I am on lesson 18 of RS B and my son is learning his math facts to ten. In lesson 15 it says: NOTE: The math facts totaling 10 are essential for learning facts over 10, so their mastery is an important goal. Today's lesson begins that mastery.

 

So I have taken that to mean that we play the games, we do the worksheets and the verbal warm-ups and activities so ds will master the facts. My not-mathy 6.5 year old has his math facts almost down cold. Is it possible that you didn't spend enough time on these early chapters?

 

Also, your dd who did RS up to level C, what were her gaps? If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know so that I can supplement. :) I don't want to switch because I'm finding RS a good fit but I don't want gaps! I already have Challenging Word Problems 1 to supplement.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I've got the HiG for 1A, just looked through it to verify, and the math facts are all through it with activities and mental math work sheets in the back. That would have prevented the 'holes' it seems and probably would have made 1A more challenging for your little guy. I'm just saying that to encourage you not to blow off the program as having big holes and leaps in it just yet!

 

From what I understand from a recent thread, if you don't use the HiG there are certain things you have to fill in for yourself and some are more than happy to do that in their own way. For the rest of us that like to be told what when and how so we don't miss something, there is the HiG. :D

 

So, two points: you can move ahead without those math facts and don't make the reinforcements so much fun your child is willing to ACT incapable just to keep the games coming. You may say "my child would never do that". Just what I used to say.

 

My 3yo does it already. :tongue_smilie: eta, not with math facts, just with whatever he's doing if he's in the mood ... just figured I'd clarify that :lol:

Edited October 2, 2009 by RecumbentHeart

[radiobrain]

I am probably coming from a different perspective, but I have only ever used the regular old workbooks. I vaguely remember that I bought a HIG once and after looking at it I screamed and ran away.

 

I buy the Textbooks, but I barely use them. I open them maybe once or twice a level.

 

So, basically, I am a non-intensive math person. However, we read books about math all the time. Books about mathematicians, fun math stories, etc etc. I have never worried about them learning their "facts" by a certain time. My younger kid has no problem with any of them, my older has more trouble, but I know that one day they will sink in, when he sees the need to retain them... he has yet to reach that point. I am not concerned. They are above "grade" level in their math, my older is closer to where he should be.

 

We spend a minimum amount of time on math, but we do it every day. Sometimes we won't even do a whole lesson in singapore, as it has too many problems or too long. Other days we do more than one. Basically, I don't stress out about math.

 

I think that singapore can be done just fine w/o having math facts memorized. Don't sweat it!

 

I am continually puzzled by HSers fear/stress about teaching math. I think that is one of the easier subjects to teach, and I am NOT a mathy person.

 

Good luck and don't sweat it! You and your kids will do fine!

[hmschooling]

I wish there was just a "thinking" math program that was a little more linear, if that's the right word-like that we could just keep moving and not have to park and figure out what to do next.

 

That sounds like Math Mammoth! I use MM now along with Ruth Beechick's teaching methods and it is SO SO much like Singapore but the drill and review is within the lessons and I dont' have to worry about it. Don't need a teacher guide, it's all in the student worktext.

 

 

On another note, your son is "doing" the work, but do you know he is really understanding it? Can he show you with real objects even a week or month after you teach something? Can he solve real life problems using the concepts taught even weeks later?

We did this breezing through thing with our dd, and upon reaching 2B (maybe half way through), realized there were so many gaps b/c she had been able to so easily do all the math in the books and do it well, that I never stopped to make sure I was teachign her the highlight of Singapore's program to begin with-- conceptual understanding. That takes time and mental maturity-- not successfully completed worksheets. I got in touch with the rep at Singapore math and after talking with her, realized that my dd couldn't get it anymore b/c she wasn't in the right book-- the rep stressed how important age is in starting since it's so conceptual. She said kids in Singapore don't start 1A until age 7...and I should get some of the extra workbooks of the same level and stay there practicing those concepts a while and then move on later.

 

Since then though, we've worked on filling in gaps with games, real life math, Ruth Beechick methods, and now started Math Mammoth. I am VERY pleased with MM and find is amazingly similar to Singapore, yet different in the fact it also includes those things I felt were lacking in Singapore.

 

This is just how we have finally found success in math-- help it helps some!

[PeterPan]

Happy, now you know why I'm doing BJU. :)

 

Hehe, I guess that's a short answer. There ARE curricula that have it all in one place, but you'll lose some of what you like about Singapore. No curriculum is perfect. Take the good and fix the bad, that's all I can say. If you're having to combine 3 programs to meet your needs, that's a mess, and I can see why it frustrates you. I decided I wouldn't do that. I may not be perpetually in love with the BJU math or sing its praises and say to sell your cat to get it, but at least it's everything I needed, all in one place. And the more I look at other curricula, the more I value that. Guess it depends on what you want most.

 

As for the facts, give him a Flashmaster, play the games, use an addition table, work more problems, but keep going. You have to keep the drill parallel to the conceptual. You can't necessarily isolate them for some kids. They're kids. They need to practice stuff over and over and over and over...

Edited October 2, 2009 by OhElizabeth

[HappyGrace]

I am trying to sort through all the excellent responses in my mind. There is much truth in all of them! I probably should have done the 1A HIG. I guess now the remedy for that is stopping and solidifying his facts. The thing is, he is very mathy and wants more challenge at the same time. I think I'll add in the 1A IP and the CWP. I'm going to look at MM too. I do plan to continue drill every day-I made that mistake with my dd! I know a lot of the conceptual "tricks" from RightStart (take from the other number to make the 9 into a 10 for easier addition) so I am teaching those with the facts and he grasps those easily.

 

Jumping in Puddles-Ds does know all the facts that add up to ten well from R/S because of all the games for it. But that's only a few facts. It's the OTHER facts he doesn't have down pat! R/S is not good about having you do the games every day for drill, which is the problem I ran into with my dd. Now I have the game book and USE it with ds! I had other beefs with R/S-dd hit a wall in B that we could not get past and I didn't know to work sideways for awhile, so we just got totally behind in math. She'd learn what perpendicular was and then they wouldn't talk about it for two months and she forgot what it was! I felt there were conceptual jumps and not enough practice for us-soon I realized that my dd does better with a spiral program. Many people have had great success with R/S though!

 

OhElizabeth-I WISH I could make BJU work for us. The TM put me over the edge. I can't see us using MEP long-term; just for fun for him right now. I am really happy with CLE for dd and so I will probably move to it next yr with ds and use Singapore more as a supplement-it is short enough to do that and will give him the conceptual. I had hoped to use Singapore alone with him, but I'm not sure that will work-he may do better with both together. Sigh.

[PeterPan]

Happy, have you thought about abeka or horizons alongside Singapore? You may have hit on your error. Many people use Singapore in combo with another, more spiraly traditional program. If that's all it takes to solve your problem, that would be great! Since he's a boy, have you looked at Horizons? Colorful, spirals, plenty of practice, good track record with boys. Can't beat that.

 

I haven't really thought through what I'll do with ds when he comes of age. Given my experience with dd, I definitely think it's wise to do something with plenty of traditional practice while also doing something conceptual. Your traditional is every day, like eating broccoli, and your conceptual lessons are as you can, when you get to them. That way you're always doing at least something. You can always bump up those conceptual lessons, nothing says they have to match the traditional spine.

[HappyGrace]

hmschooling-do you use the full curriculum Math Mammoth (Light Blue) or the supplemental worktexts?

[HappyGrace]

I definitely think it's wise to do something with plenty of traditional practice while also doing something conceptual.

 

This is exactly how I feel about it!

 

Funny you mention Horizons-I just YESTERDAY borrowed Grade 1 from df to look it over, thinking it would be a good fit for ds. I love so much about it, I really do, but I also love how CLE has everything right in the worktext, the teaching, facts practice, and everything. I am still in consideration mode-either Singapore as spine with Horizons for spiral or CLE for spine with Singapore added in.

[PeterPan]

You don't NEED cle on top of Singapore, seems to me. Singapore is the teaching, Horizons is the work. You don't need drill with Horizons because it has so much work. I can't say that definitively, but just that in general I can't fathom your ds needing more drill on top of that. And it has an efficiency that seems to appeal to boys. (I just notice the positive track record.) My ds, even at this age, is very efficient, in and out, knowing exactly what he wants. He doesn't need girly stories, themes, etc. Just get them in and out. Boy math. :)

[angela in ohio]

:rant:

 

I wish the Singapore books came with a disclaimer when sold to U.S. homeschoolers. In Singapore, they are just a small part of an entire teacher-led curriculum, which would include direct instruction and plenty of drill. Instead, U.S. homeschoolers hear that Singapore students score highly and think these books will do it. If you read the TIMSS results, they credit the instruction and drill, not necessarily the materials or approach for Singapore's math success as a nation.)

 

I know many homeschoolers whose kiddos rushed through the books "like candy," as one mom told me, but did not have any sort of understanding or retention. Too many people are lured in by the fact that they can just hand the workbook to dc and let them go to town and think that they are "teaching math," but I have seen this come to disastrous results.

 

I think the HIG are helpful if you are not going to add the drill and other instruction yourself (or you weren't trained to teach math in Singapore. :D ) At a minimum, it is helpful to teach the lesson and provide drill of both math facts and key concepts. We use Singapore math in conjunction with other materials here.

 

Off my soapbox now... :leaving:

[hmschooling]

hmschooling-do you use the full curriculum Math Mammoth (Light Blue) or the supplemental worktexts?

 

I'm using Add/Subt 2-A from the blue series to help get her facts down first. Then I have Grade 3 complete curriculum from the Light Blue Series. Hands down, awesome. It's so much like Singapore, yet has all that drill and such right there.

 

While doing the Add/Subt. book, we'll be doing some of the more flexible parts of the Grade 3 before starting the parts the need to be done in a certain order (more advanced addition, mult, division...). So, fractions, geometry, time and those types of things will just be something we can do whenever we need a break or have time to add more math.

 

And just FYI, my dd8 started in it officially today, opened it up and did a few problems and browsed a bit then says, "Mom, you have got to be kidding me. This is great! I love this so much better! Do you see how this makes so much sense?! I didn't know that's what it was all about!" Then she thanked me for getting her a new math that she could understand. I am in curriculum love right now :D (She has NEVER thanked me for a math program including the wonderfully bright Horizons or Singapore books so I am VERY impressed and excited!)

[hmschooling]

Adding that we've done the Singapore and Horizons thing too...they take a very different sequence so if you want lessons to match up, they won't do that without a fair amount of work on your part. If you don't mind that SM might teach one lesson while later Horizons reviews it, then another time Horizons might be teaching one while SM reviews it-- then you'll be fine. Also, some things covered in one, aren't covered in the other-- that goes both ways.

It added up to very long math days and Horizons still needs drill too. That's not all in the workbook-- much of it is in the Teacher Guide (flashcards, etc.)

[siloam]

(((Happy)))

 

Can't win, right?

 

If I were in your shoes I would move ahead with Singapore 1B slowly, while still playing the games and doing other stuff to work on math facts. Singapore tends to start out with easy concepts just like RS then moves to the stuff where he will need to have his math facts down. Even then it usually starts with the easy stuff and works towards the more complicated (working with ones, to working with whole 10's to working with ones and tends with no carrying, to working with carrying in single digits to working with carrying with 10's). I think if you are just diligent about covering the math facts daily he will do fine by the time he needs it.

 

Given you didn't use HIG 1A I personally would assume this is not a program problem, but just a loss of data problem, till proven otherwise. Frustrating yes, but we learn from our mistakes, so hopefully this won't be an issue again.

 

It is interesting to see how other people have issues with RS, and why. I am not trying to sell you on returning to RS. :D I agree that the geometry work is somewhat random, and it does frustrate me a little. I just re-teach it each time then don't worry about how they forget it, because I know they will. My oldest finally has it down, but I don't know if that is due to RS or Singapore. :001_huh: The games aren't an issue here because I schedule the kids to play the daily with each other. That means my oldest plays games on my 2nd dd's level instead of her own, but that hasn't seemed to be a problem. RS would be a lot more difficult for me to use if my kids were widely spaced and I couldn't have my kids play the game together. I do camp out on concepts and just play games for long stretches, and it doesn't bother me that I have to (probalby due to the reading problems we have gone through I assume the problem is LD related and not the program, LOL!). For example my ds had hs base 10 math facts down cold but couldn't tell you what 3+3 equaled. :blink: Now he is only starting level B after covering level A, so I am not overly worried about that. I am not skipping the lessons you can skip after doing level A because I figure he could use the extra practice and it builds confidence for it to be easy. Thus I have been covering two lessons a week (or a lesson and a worksheet) and the other two days we play addition war. I started out with just 1-5 cards till he had those down, then added in the 6. Then took out the 1 and now have been able to add 7. In addition, two days a week he plays games with his 8yo sister and one of the days I have them play the same game and one he gets to play his favorite, Go to the Dump-now you see why he has his base 10 facts down cold. :rolleyes:

 

Most people don't like to have to tailor things as much as I do, so I can see why you would be frusterated. Hopefully if you can get over this hump it won't be an issue again.

 

Heather

 

[mystika1]

Hi,

I really don't think I can give you much advice but I can tell you my story. I used part of Right Start Math Lvl A and tried part of B after someone told me that B might be a better fit. It didn't work. I tried and tried long after I should have just given up. I then moved to Math Mammoth 1st grade which was better but my daughter was very bored with it and hated it.(don't really know why as it looked ok to me) I purchased MUS Alpha and that was a hit for about 3 months. I really thought MUS would be the program for her and I but the tears came everytime I took out the materials.(especially the blocks..hmmm) I purchased CLE Math 1 and I can honestly say this is a well rounded program. It has drill and it gently covers everything I want in a math program. It discusses manipulatives to use in the TM. It is also very inexpensive. It has been around along time which tell me alot! It is said that the workbooks are plain and not colorful but each lesson my daughter gets to color something on the page. She likes this alot and looks forward to it. I am so happy with it that I will be ordering other subjects to try out.

 

I am not telling you to switch over as I know how expensive this can be:willy_nilly: but in my home I don't want to have to buy 3 or 4 different math programs each year just to get it all covered? Homeschooling is great as you can create your own curriculum that works for your child. I had to control myself as it was getting unrealistic to spend that much money on the latest and greatest curriculum. Any one of these curriculum choices in my opinion is still better than ps so you really can't go wrong. :D

 

HTH,

 

Penny:)

[Strawberry Queen]

I have used SM for both of my girls. My older dd in in 4a and younger in 2a. Neither of my girls had their facts down in 1st. I just didn't get to it with everything else.:glare:

 

I'm working on them with dd in 2nd. We do Addition the Fun Way each day, reviewing previous stories and learning a new one. They have picture stories about each fact which stick with my dd. 'when it's 4+4 farmer John runs through the 4 doors and over the 8-gate to get away from the bull.' It is getting to the point when my dd should be knowing them because it's taking her a long time to finish lessons cause of all the counting on fingers.:D

 

As far as other supplements go I just print off fact worksheets from the computer. I send my older dd to math-u-see site for drill practice, I have flashcards, math games... it just takes time to get them down. Therefore I just keep going. I think we'll take a bit of a break and try get them down but then Onwards.:tongue_smilie:

[Colleen]

I wouldn't worry about what the HIG says, quite honestly. In my experience, math facts come along through application. Granted, you don't want to rush along, never allowing time for processing or practice. But sitting in a holding pattern memorizing math facts? Nah.

 

Btw, I've used Singapore Math for nearly ten years to good effect without supplementing. I do have my guys go through extra SM workbooks for additional practice. I also like to mix in the Key to workbooks (Fractions, Decimals, Percents) around 4th/5th grade.

[amsunshine]

I think I'll add in the 1A IP and the CWP.

 

:iagree: Personally, I think this is the best road to take. (Disclaimer: I'm biased in that I use every.single.one of Singapore's supplements, incl. the EP books). I just feel the program is fuller and more effective with all of the supplemental materials. The IPs are really wonderful.

 

I, too, would just go forward -- slowly and methodically. And I think we've already talked about games like Countdown? Sum Swamp? Add in some fun games like these to break the monotony of drill. My dd8 loved when I brought out the 12 sided math die (Math Dice) to drill times tables today -- maybe you could do something like that with addition/subtraction facts? Just add it to your regular SM lesson, whatever it is. :001_smile:

[melmichigan]

I think I asked the same question in reverse yesterday, I had stopped. :) I ordered the MM downloads of the Addition and Subtraction blue books for $8. I really like the way they are set up and think they compliment the SM very well. We are working through 1A right now, so behind where you are. My girls also use ALEKS quicktables a few times a week to drill facts. We use the HIG, the texts, workbooks, EP and the CWP and still use the above and other online math sites.

 

:iagree: with the comment about how the program is used in Singapore. It is one part of their curriculum and doesn't stand on it's own there, no surprise it needs supplement in the US as well. I researched it expensively before I bought it so I went in with my eyes open in that regard, a disclaimer might help...

[HappyGrace]

I'm trying to wrap my head around all of these great responses! Seems to me that maybe if I do all the Sing. supplements it would be closer to how they do it in Singapore. I do like the look of MM-I'm thinking I could add that on rather than doing another "full" program like CLE or Horizons.

 

I guess I'm really paranoid because older dd broke down in RS at just this point and has never really gotten back on track!

[Colleen]

I'm trying to wrap my head around all of these great responses! Seems to me that maybe if I do all the Sing. supplements it would be closer to how they do it in Singapore. I do like the look of MM-I'm thinking I could add that on rather than doing another "full" program like CLE or Horizons.

 

I guess I'm really paranoid because older dd broke down in RS at just this point and has never really gotten back on track!

I think you're making this harder than necessary. Your son is doing fine, right? So, no worries. Certainly, I can't see why you'd even be considering doing another full program alongside SM. As for "all" the SM supplements, I'm not sure what you mean by all. Choose one or two extra workbooks and have those on hand to use as review and reinforcement. Relax!:)

[The Governess]

We are using the whole program and I am finding that between instruction from the HIG, textbook/workbook, IP, CWP, and then tests at the end of each unit we are pretty much on pace with the program suggestions so far in terms of time spent per unit (we are one week behind because I spent an extra week on number bonds). We do math 5 days a week for 30 minutes, which seems very appropriate to me for this level. I am not finding that I need to supplement with another program yet, although I am always looking at new curricula I read about on these boards........ :D

 

So once you are ready move forward in 1B, maybe give it a chance with the HIG and IP added in and see if it is enough for you on its own without investing in another program too?

[zaichiki]

From what I understand from a recent thread, if you don't use the HiG there are certain things you have to fill in for yourself and some are more than happy to do that in their own way. For the rest of us that like to be told what when and how so we don't miss something, there is the HiG. :D

 

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it?

[zaichiki]

Choose one or two extra workbooks and have those on hand to use as review and reinforcement. Relax!:)

 

:iagree:

[zaichiki]

I wouldn't worry about what the HIG says, quite honestly. In my experience, math facts come along through application. Granted, you don't want to rush along, never allowing time for processing or practice. But sitting in a holding pattern memorizing math facts? Nah.

 

Btw, I've used Singapore Math for nearly ten years to good effect without supplementing. I do have my guys go through extra SM workbooks for additional practice. I also like to mix in the Key to workbooks (Fractions, Decimals, Percents) around 4th/5th grade.

 

Here, too. (Only five years and two kids, though.) I noticed that the kids picked up the math facts as we went. If we hit a rough spot, where they seemed to stall out, I'd just revert to math facts drills for a week or so.

 

Ideas:"make 10" card games, flash cards, computer game -- many free on-line, wrap-ups, jumping games using chalk to write the drill on the driveway, etc.

 

We use the IP books, a semester behind the textbook, for review. I have also used some of the Key to Fractions books for ds when he was in the Primary Math 4 books.

[StephanieZ]

Ds6 is very mathy-has done Rightstart A (in about three weeks) and about half of R/S B. I switched him to Singapore and he flew through 1A in about a week (text and parts of workbook, no HIG). Now I got Singapore 1B and the HIG, and after doing the first two chapters, which were VERY basic, it says they need to know their math facts to ten before going on. :confused:

 

When was I supposed to teach/drill these? :confused: He can add quickly in his head, but I would not say he knows the facts cold.

 

I can do games, etc., with him to learn the facts, that's not the problem. It's just that I switched to Sing from RightStart (which I also did up to level C with older dd and she never learned the facts and had many gaps) to avoid this type of conceptual jumping.

 

I wish there was just a "thinking" math program that was a little more linear, if that's the right word-like that we could just keep moving and not have to park and figure out what to do next.

 

I'd get the Extra Practice, etc., but I don't want to put more money into this than I already have-the HIG, text, wkbks and IPs were expensive enough when you break it down into the A section and the B section for each!

 

I guess I'm kind of venting. Sorry this is so convoluted!

 

First off, your child should probably be doing most of the workbook problems at this level. I mean, at 1A/1B they are very simple. If they are at all time consuming, that means the child hasn't mastered the techniques and/or facts, and therefore needs more practice. If they go super fast and easy, then what's the trouble with doing them all. (Heck, I still use that argument with my dd doing algebra!) My dc and I are very mathy, and there were certainly some exercises in later SM books that I let them skip problems, but I think it is likely useful to do them all in these early books.

 

You'll find there are certain spots in SM where the child needs to master their facts in order to prevent frustration. For instance, if the child cannot rapidly add single digits, then when they do long addition problems, they will get really irritated. 2A teaches 256+89 and similar, so that single problem requires just a lot of small addition problems, so the child gets frustrated if they don't know them automatically and math is no longer fun!!

 

Likewise, later on with multiplication facts. . .

 

Now that I am on dc #3 with SM (I love this program), I know that once they start introducing a set of facts, I need to drill them over the next few weeks to aim for mastery ASAP. The world won't come to a screeching halt if you fail to do this; you'll know right away when you hit the material when the child NEEDS to know this stuff. If that happens and fact mastery hasn't gelled yet, you just have to stop progress in SM for a few weeks until the facts catch up (and during that time work on the facts!!)

 

My system that works for us for K-3 math:

 

+ SM Text & WB (enough Text to teach the method/idea; as much WB as needed to practice the idea AND master the facts, when applicable)

 

+ simultaneous Miquon Math during Gr 1-3 or until all 6 Miquon books are complete. This is particularly helpful for fact practice, as there is all that extra practice!! Also, it is convenient to be able to just do Miquon for a few weeks on the occasion that the child hits one of those sticky spots in SM where the fact knowledge isn't there yet. . . (This happened more with me with dc 1, less with dc2, and hasn't happend yet with dc3 as I have learned to do fact practice from the get go!)

 

+ daily fact drill from 1A up until they have mastered the multiplication tables to 12. Five min a day is plenty. We like triangle flashcards, Wrap-Its and Calculadders. There are also lots of great games (Peggy Kaye's books!!) or plenty of free on line resources, or just skip counting games in the car, etc.

 

Those are the 3 aspects of my K-3rd grade math approach. Works great for us. (For 4-6th, I drop fact drill, am done with Miquon, and sprinkle in some IP books.)

 

FWIW, I believe that teachers in Singapore drill facts separately from the main math program, so yes, you ARE supposed to drill them.

 

I do NOT think you have to stop SM unless your child is resisting/getting frustrated d/t lack of fact mastery. Just add fact practice to your routines and keep doing SM and hopefully the facts will come soon enough. . .

 

You can follow the clues in the Text as to which facts to work on. . . I.e,. if there is an exercise about adding 5 to a number, then drill that, etc.

 

For example, my dd started x3s a week or so ago, so we did 3x drill daily until she nailed them. A couple days ago, I had her start 4x drill in addition since I know that is what's next. . . etc, etc. It's easy to figure out what to do if you use the Text as a guide.

[StephanieZ]

Throughout the 1A HIG it does suggest when a child should know which facts... if I remember correctly.

 

We are just continually drilling. I personally think that it's more important to know the how and why, than memorizing answers.

 

I like to separate "math" from "arithmetic". . . I agree math is more important. . .

 

When my dc get a problem wrong in math, they have learned (from me) to identify whether it is "just an arithmetic error" or something more serious ("math"). They are two different things -- which is why we study "math" using SM and Miquon, Thinkwell, etc and use other drills for "arithmetic". . .

 

but it is sort of like saying that writing is more important than grammar. . . If one doesn't master grammar, it'll be hard to write much that anyone can understand or enjoy. . . If one doesn't master arithmetic, then they'll likely have difficulty with much math.

 

I was a great/gifted math student but didn't memorize my times tables until . . .well I still have to think about 8x7, 8x6 and a couple others. I used to write these little cheat/addition tricks at the margin of my math papers through grade school. I was fast enough I could still get As but I had to add up a row of 8s to get to 8x6!! So, I am not toooo worried if the kids lag a bit on their facts, but I see for their own benefit that they MUST have some basic fluency in the facts in order to progress and continue to enjoy.

[PeterPan]

Happy, it seems like you blame yourself for your dd stalling out in math several years ago. Has it occurred to you that it may have had nothing to do with YOU or that you were doing something wrong and maybe more that it was a weakness for her, that you were seeing HER bent, strengths and weaknesses? It's not necessarily that you were doing anything wrong, but that it would have happened anyway, no matter what the curriculum. And your ds has his own mix of strengths and abilities, which means his response to the same materials will be totally different.

[stripe]

:rant:

 

I wish the Singapore books came with a disclaimer when sold to U.S. homeschoolers. In Singapore, they are just a small part of an entire teacher-led curriculum, which would include direct instruction and plenty of drill.

And I think the seeming simplicity of the books suggests that there isn't much there, when in reality, each aspect should be thoroughly delved into instead of breezed through. There is a lot of teacher training that leads to the classroom experience, that is not obvious in the student texts.

 

I looked at a HIG for level 6 and didn't see much in it, which surprised me. Heck, it still surprises me. I was really expecting loads of ideas. Maybe it's only the newer HIG that are "meaty"?

[Penelope]

:rant:

 

I wish the Singapore books came with a disclaimer when sold to U.S. homeschoolers. In Singapore, they are just a small part of an entire teacher-led curriculum, which would include direct instruction and plenty of drill. Instead, U.S. homeschoolers hear that Singapore students score highly and think these books will do it. If you read the TIMSS results, they credit the instruction and drill, not necessarily the materials or approach for Singapore's math success as a nation.)

 

 

 

I think so, too. I don't even think everyone needs the HIG. I tend to teach concepts the way the HIG says, and Singapore mental math is pretty much the way *I* think about math already. I find the HIG helpful for the extra practice sheets and games, but I haven't had any A-ha moments so far reading it. But there seem to be a lot of people who don't get the reasoning behind the elementary math algorithms, and I'm doubt it's as good of a program without the teaching and discussion. I even wonder whether I am doing enough at home when I skip extra activities because my son gets the concept. I think in math there is a fine line between what we in the homeschooling world see as "busywork", and needed repetition/overlearning to really cement concepts.

 

I think that SM should sell packages the way Sonlight does, but also I'd like to see a pamphlet about what the instruction in Singapore would really be like.

[zaichiki]

I don't even think everyone needs the HIG. I tend to teach concepts the way the HIG says, and Singapore mental math is pretty much the way *I* think about math already.

 

Same here. When I looked through the HIG, I realized that I had already been doing much of what was suggested (I picked up on the teaching method directly from the textbook). I also thought about math this way already.

 

I find the HIG helpful for the extra practice sheets and games, but I haven't had any A-ha moments so far reading it.

 

This is why I stopped purchasing the HIGs. I found them to be a LOT of money for some extra practice, which I could easily add with the computer games/hands-on stuff we already had. I *do* like the answer keys. I'm glad you can get the separately. We have both of the Primary Math Answer Keys (answers to all text and workbook problems). One of them covers PM 1-3 and the other covers PM 4-6. I think they were $5 or $6 each.

 

But there seem to be a lot of people who don't get the reasoning behind the elementary math algorithms, and I'm doubt it's as good of a program without the teaching and discussion.

 

I see that now after reading many posts about how helpful the HIGs are to some. I think another reason a lot of people like the HIGs is that they like to have the schedule prepared for them. We're more "fly by the seat of our pants" types. I find myself changing schedules and adding/removing stuff to better adapt to my child's needs -- I leave the schedule so often that I feel like a failure if I try to follow it. Thus: no schedule over here.

 

I think that SM should sell packages the way Sonlight does, but also I'd like to see a pamphlet about what the instruction in Singapore would really be like.

 

:iagree:Good idea!

:)

[HappyGrace]

I know I'm just probably overcompensating for my own severe math weaknesses

:blush:

 

I really appreciate all the help and encouragement. :)

[Gillian on Orcas Island]

I like to separate "math" from "arithmetic". . . I agree math is more important. . .

 

When my dc get a problem wrong in math, they have learned (from me) to identify whether it is "just an arithmetic error" or something more serious ("math"). They are two different things -- which is why we study "math" using SM and Miquon, Thinkwell, etc and use other drills for "arithmetic". . .

 

but it is sort of like saying that writing is more important than grammar. . . If one doesn't master grammar, it'll be hard to write much that anyone can understand or enjoy. . . If one doesn't master arithmetic, then they'll likely have difficulty with much math.

 

 

:iagree:

 

and love the way you put this. Was just trying to explain the difference to oldest ds who is mathematically bright, whizzing through pre-algrebra conceptually, but struggles with some of his arithmetic, for a lot of the reasons this thread has brought up - we started with SM, and at first I thought they'd all *get it* if they had enough practice, and therefore thought we could avoid pure drill. While this worked out for my younger two, this kid really needed to drill, and now thinks he's "bad at math" when actually he has a very logical mind and IMO, lots of potential for doing well in higher Mathematics, he just still needs to solidify his Arithmetic skills! It's frustrating for him and makes me regret not starting earlier...So, don't be afraid to drill (or call it "doing it practice games," since drill isn't a very fun-sounding word, lol), in whatever interesting, lively ways you can come up with, that's my advice!

[Reya]

EVERY child gains speed with math facts as a different rate. Any program that "does it all" will only fit a minority of students.

 

Just print out some drill worksheets, have him do one a day, and continue your conceptual progress.

 

What's the fuss? :-)