I made a fatal mistake...did not get dd used to red ink on her writing!

[HappyGrace]

I know I should have gotten dd9 used to having corrections on her writing from an early age.....but I didn't. Now she is VERY resistant to me making any suggestions, corrections, etc. And we are at the point-entering logic stage and doing some more advanced writing-where I have to be able to suggest and discuss ways to fine-tune her writing. She is a pretty good writer thanks to several yrs of imitative writing from IEW (and a little WT). But she has kind of stalled out as far as skills, and needs some pointers, so we need to be able to work together on this and she's very resistant-just wants to write it her way and call it done.

 

I am only selecting certain pieces to work on together as far as editing, so I feel she needs to be okay with that, since she has other writing that she can keep for her own outlet. I only want to edit one or two pieces per week with her.

 

One thing I'm trying to do is read plenty of good lit with excellent sentence structure, and point out good samples from the lit from time to time as we read. I do think this helps, since I then see her using some of the devices we discuss. Any other suggestions?

[TwinMominTX]

Would it help if you use some of the IEW checklists? Perhaps have her go through her own writing and filling in the checklist and then you do the same with the same piece of writing.

[8filltheheart]

LOL......I am so mean. I would pull out a book of wonderful writing like Tolkein or Lewis and read her some really descriptive passages. I would then pick up her paper and read what she wrote. I would tell her that those men studied linguistics and writing for decades and that she is 9. She has a lot to learn and accepting criticism for what she has done wrong and discussing how to correct it is the only way she will improve.

 

I'm sorry. I find it humorous that a 3rd or 4th grader somehow thinks that their writing does not need editting. (Told you.....I am really mean!!)

[HappyGrace]

momof7-you are one of the people that made me understand that this was indeed a FATAL mistake by several times saying that you NEVER let your dc get away w/out red ink!

 

She did use the IEW checklists up to this year. I think I'll pull them out again-good idea. I just had a brainstorm to pick things I see in her writing than need improvement, use them as casual talking points to show how to correct, and then add them to the IEW cklist!

[Hoggirl]

Insist SHE edit first using blue ink. She will likely be resistant at first, but make it happen.

 

Going from her blue-inked edited work, you edit twice. First with a green pen marking things she has done WELL. Make positive comments with your green pen.

 

Then edit it again with a red pen marking things she could improve upon. Although it is difficult for me, I try to avoid giving specific suggestions. Try things like - "How about a stronger verb, quality adjective, etc." Or, "I think you should implement a greater variety of sentence openers...you have an awful lot that start with a subject." Or, "I think you have overused the word '___________' in this paper. The only time I am really specific is if there is a grammar-type problem such as a run-on, fragment, verb-tense shift, antecedent problem, etc.

 

Try to have at least as much green as red. What I found was that ds's papers were covered in red, although some of things I had written were actually positive comments. Visually, it was coming back to him with just too much RED.

 

HTH.

[Moni]

 

I am only selecting certain pieces to work on together as far as editing, so I feel she needs to be okay with that, since she has other writing that she can keep for her own outlet. I only want to edit one or two pieces per week with her.

 

This was going to be mine.

Some writing you don't Red Pen, others, you do.

That's just the way it is going to be.

New Method.

Yes, the old method , there was no Red Ink.

This is now a Different method.

She's not being singled out. Millions of students received Red Ink.

This is not special or unique to her circumstances.

 

Also if it's the actual document, I would make a photocopy and just Red Pen one or the other. She can keep a collection of her non-marked-up documents.

 

Other than that, carry on. ;)

This will become The New Normal in time.

:seeya:

[MerryAtHope]

By "editing" do you mean spelling errors and mechanics, or do you mean revising (adding descriptions, a creative "hook," using literary devices etc...)?

 

It sounds like you mean revision--I think doing 1-2 per week might be a lot for that kind of changing. What I would do is work on one revision per month, but keep all of her writing in a notebook. When you mark it, instead of marking things wrong do things like say, "This part really interested me, I'd like to know more?" Or when you talk about a description that's weak, misunderstand it. As an example, one time my son was talking about a mythological creature biting someone, and I non-chalantly acted out how someone might bite into a sandwich and asked if that's what he meant. He said, "No!" and then acted out what he meant. Then I said, "Wow, that was great! Now how can we put that into words?"

 

Another thing I have said is, "Wow, I can tell that you see what you are describing like a movie in your head. I wish I could see that movie." Other times we talk about the great examples from literature and how they let us see what the author sees like a movie. Then sometimes I'll water down the author's description--example, "What if this author had just said, 'the sunset was pretty.' Would you feel like you experienced the sunset with the author?"

 

We also talk about "cheater" words--words like "cool," "awesome," "stuff," that really don't tell the reader anything. This week my son wrote an opinion piece about a computer game that let's you blow up "stuff." I said, "I'd really like to know more. What do you mean by stuff, like popcorn balls?" Yes, I purposefully picked something silly and innocuous to get the discription out of him!

 

It's not that "stuff" is "wrong." But it's a cheater word that lets the author have the pleasure of reliving the experience without letting the reader into the experience.

 

So instead of letting her think something is "wrong," let her know that her words are precious and important to you--worth saving, worth reading--and that you want to know more--and WHY you want to know more. Continue to study and talk about great reading and what makes it great. Talk about a great hook from literature--and then rewrite a boring one, say it to your dd and ask if that would have been a good way to start--and why or why not.

 

Let her pick out a piece a month that is a piece she cares about, and then give her some ideas--what would she like to work on--a hook? Using the 5 senses in her descriptions? Using a good simile or metaphor? etc... Have her choose ONE thing to work on, and then see if she can change her writing with that ONE thing--and then praise her for it.

 

She is young yet to be putting this all together, so I think your primary goal is to preserve a love of writing, and develop an appreciation for the work and time and thought that goes into truly masterful writing.

 

One last idea--try the "sandwich" method--a positive comment, something to improve on, and another positive comment. Have you ever heard the saying how it takes 10 positive comments to erase the damage of one negative comment made? Think similarly with writing--it's a very vulnerable thing, like baring your soul.

 

HTH some! Merry :-)

Edited September 18, 2009 by MerryAtHope

[HappyGrace]

Hoggirl-I LOVE the three pen idea!!! Thanks so much!

 

Merry-Very thoughtful response. I love everything you said. I love the idea of putting so much value on the words like that. Thank you!!

[HappyGrace]

So Cadam, if they were resisting the "deal with it", what would you do?

 

I am very much a "deal with it" type of mom (almost to a fault), but in this it's such a fine line because I really want her to feel like with her writing, we're working together to make it better.

[Tree House Academy]

I had a degree in English and during my time in college (my focus was in writing), I took this one editing class where the teacher would absolutely tear us a new on on our writing. His method was to use green ink at all times. Amazingly, it really helped. There was something about the green ink that made it seem more suggestive than authoritative. I took his criticisms with pride. Maybe a green pen will help your dd not be so overwhelmed. :)

[8filltheheart]

FWIW......I don't even own a red pen. :)

 

We also do revising and editing as a cooperative effort vs. my writing all over it and handing it back. There is a lot of discussion behind every mark. :)

 

Oh.....I also have my kids write their papers double spaced so that it leaves lots of room for writing of comments!!

[HappyGrace]

I have never marked up her writing on my own and returned it. I have never used red pen-I meant that figuratively. All the editing we have done has been together, but it hasn't been very much. I just need to fine-tune things with her, but find a way to have her be receptive. So far I'm getting some good ideas!

 

I think part of the problem is she wants to write it and call it done-not discuss it.

[TwinMominTX]

What great advice. Thanks!

[creekmom]

I wanted to suggest an idea as far as editing goes - try putting proofreading marks at the end of the line - instead of directly writing what was wrong.

 

For example, if dc wrote the following sentence:

 

My Dad told my sister and I, to be quite.

 

You would put the following at the end of the line:

 

My Dad told my sister and I, to be quite. Sp, Gr, C, P

 

Hopefully, dc will then be able to figure out what the spelling, grammar, capitalization and punctuation errors are on his own -

 

My dad told my sister and me to be quiet.

 

Be sure your child has a list of proofreading symbols. I think editing this way forces the student to take more responsibility in finding and correcting his errors, and it makes it a little more like a game (can you figure out the mistakes?).

[WTMCassandra]

I had a degree in English and during my time in college (my focus was in writing), I took this one editing class where the teacher would absolutely tear us a new on on our writing. His method was to use green ink at all times. Amazingly, it really helped. There was something about the green ink that made it seem more suggestive than authoritative. I took his criticisms with pride. Maybe a green pen will help your dd not be so overwhelmed. :)

 

:iagree: In my years as a writer/editor for the Navy, I chose to use green ink on anything marked up by hand. Red makes people, well, see red! I don't know what it is, but it makes a difference. And when I talk about the paper I always cite a couple things that are good about it before I start in on any areas to adjust. Learning how to talk to an author is very, very important, even if the authors are our children.

[peacefully]

.

[Laura Corin]

I got a great tip on this board. I use a green pen. Green is for growing - corrections are to help you grow. Repeating this really helped Hobbes, who is a lazy perfectionist (wants to get everything right, but only if it doesn't involve redoing it).

 

Laura

[PeterPan]

That's funny. To me it's just the age, that you're her mom, and perfectly normal. Not that it's ideal, but it's normal. Try a different color ink, try having *her* edit it first using the ink and a preset checklist. Are you doing any editing (Editor in Chief, that type thing) to get her in editing mode? Are you using a checklist so the expectations are very concrete? You'll get there. If she wasn't resisting you, you'd be wondering what alien zapped her. :)

[calandalsmom]

I really like what IEW says- hands OFF content hands on mechanics. I think it helps immensely to have that goal in mind. Also, I like the idea of working on only ONE element at a time so as not to overwhelm.

 

For us next week it ill be strong verbs which means I may have to ignore awkward phrasing or weak adjectives.

[jenL]

I taught middle school Language Arts and high school English for years. I know that doesn't necessarily translate into an expert opinion on homeschooling matters, but as someone who has responded to and edited many student papers, I wanted to chime in.

 

One of the things I really liked to do early in the year is to show my students copies of some original manuscripts of some very famous writers. The handout showed scratched out sentences, scrawled notes, etc. Then I would pull out a recently published book and read the dedication page where the author would thank all the people who had a hand in the book, almost always including the editor(s). I talked about writing being a process, emphasizing that Nobel Prize-winning books didn't spring from the heads of these accomplished authors as one continuous stream of perfectly polished sentences. I emphasized that the task of writing is mostly about revision, not inspiration. And I really tried to dissuade my students of the belief that writing is a solitary activity. It can be, but almost all works that are intended to have an audience are, in fact, a team effort.

 

For many students this information was a revelation, and it really helped to set the tone for more receptive attitudes toward my suggestions about their writing.

 

 

 

I did something very similar with my students when I taught 8th grade Language Arts. They needed to feel like I wasn't going to be attacking their writing but helping them grow as writers. I taught that writing was always a process, and even the best of the best never go at it alone with a team of family, friends, and editors reading, critiquing, and correcting their work. I also did not use red, ever. Like other posters, I used green, purple, or aqua pens instead. I used a lot of examples of great writing to show sentence structure, style, description, etc. The kids were also reminded, and shown, constantly that writing must make sense, and like everything in life, there are rules that must be followed for certain things. We focused on one aspect of writing at a time, so to avoid being overwhelmed by it all at once. By the end of the year, they had 2-4 pieces that were "perfect".

 

For younger students, it's appropriate to work on sentence structure and paragraphs vs. long pieces. With creative writing, pull apart a section of it, maybe just a paragraph, and dissect that, build it up, perfect it. Smaller chunks at that age will feel less painful.

[Haiku]

I would pull out a book of wonderful writing like Tolkein or Lewis and read her some really descriptive passages. I would then pick up her paper and read what she wrote.

 

I would never do that. Even though no one would expect a 9 year old to write that well, I think that setting the bar so high would just make a young child feel it's pointless to try.

 

Were it me, I would start by working through example sentences that you wrote yourself and editing them with her. You can use the mistakes she has made to create example sentences so she gets the practice editing the things she needs to work on without having it feel so personal. I would also utilize a checklist so that, after she has written her piece, she can go back and edit herself first. It will help her learn to catch her own mistakes. I can't think of much that feels more defeating than to put yourself into your words and have them returned to you scratched up with red pen. Ditch the red pen. There's no reason that corrections and edits need to be done so garishly. Along with the checklist, try using a separate piece of paper to list corrections on so she doesn't feel that her writing has been so violated.

 

I think going from no editing to red pen all over her paper would be a rather harsh transition, and I think smoothing the way for a while will ultimately lead to less resistance on her part.

 

Tara

[johnandtinagilbert]

LOL......I am so mean. I would pull out a book of wonderful writing like Tolkein or Lewis and read her some really descriptive passages. I would then pick up her paper and read what she wrote. I would tell her that those men studied linguistics and writing for decades and that she is 9. She has a lot to learn and accepting criticism for what she has done wrong and discussing how to correct it is the only way she will improve.

 

I'm sorry. I find it humorous that a 3rd or 4th grader somehow thinks that their writing does not need editting. (Told you.....I am really mean!!)

I think we might be "evil twins" :lol::lol::lol:

[johnandtinagilbert]

I had that problem before using Writing Aids. Something really focused on is "Writing is a process" (repeat a zillion times!) I imagine IEW has something similar. I insist, and still get rolling eyes or ugly faces from my dd9 b/c for everything she writes, she must fill out a graphic organizer. The thing is, the more she uses them, the more she likes writing. So, when we get to the editing stages, where I use margins and traditional editorial marking (less "Mom words") she just sees that as the process. At her age, everything she writes for "Writing" must have 3 total drafts. When she writes for other subject areas, I only mark spelling and sub/verb agreement.

 

HTH!

[Chris in VA]

You have gotten so many great ideas--I just had a thought.

It seems like a pride issue. Do you notice this attitude in other areas? Perhaps while you use the suggestions on the board to help her write, you could also look for ways to help her feel good about her accomplishments while still being receptive to coaching.

Just a thought! Always dealing with the heart, around here...:001_smile:

[WTMCassandra]

One of the things I really liked to do early in the year is to show my students copies of some original manuscripts of some very famous writers. The handout showed scratched out sentences, scrawled notes, etc. Then I would pull out a recently published book and read the dedication page where the author would thank all the people who had a hand in the book, almost always including the editor(s). I talked about writing being a process, emphasizing that Nobel Prize-winning books didn't spring from the heads of these accomplished authors as one continuous stream of perfectly polished sentences. I emphasized that the task of writing is mostly about revision, not inspiration. And I really tried to dissuade my students of the belief that writing is a solitary activity. It can be, but almost all works that are intended to have an audience are, in fact, a team effort.

 

For many students this information was a revelation, and it really helped to set the tone for more receptive attitudes toward my suggestions about their writing.

 

 

This is brilliant and extremely wise. I think my own children could use a review of this kind of information. :D

 

Thanks for chiming in. Newbie or not, you have a valuable perspective due to your previous experience.

[Vida Winter]

LOL......I am so mean. I would pull out a book of wonderful writing like Tolkein or Lewis and read her some really descriptive passages. I would then pick up her paper and read what she wrote. I would tell her that those men studied linguistics and writing for decades and that she is 9. She has a lot to learn and accepting criticism for what she has done wrong and discussing how to correct it is the only way she will improve.

 

I'm sorry. I find it humorous that a 3rd or 4th grader somehow thinks that their writing does not need editting. (Told you.....I am really mean!!)

 

 

LOL. I guess I'm mean this way too and I often use red pen. But I do try to always pick one or more aspects of the writing to praise. I also let my dc dump all their drafts and just keep the finished work for their notebooks.

[Colleen in NS]

But she has kind of stalled out as far as skills...she's very resistant-just wants to write it her way and call it done.

 

In the midst of all the great advice, I'm sort of wondering what skills she is stalled out on. And I'm thinking she is 9. I'm wondering if maybe she is stalled because somewhere there is a roadblock in her mind. I'm wondering if she is overloaded with various writing techniques, and maybe that is why she resists any attempts at improvement...could she possibly feel that she will never make a paper perfect, because of having to live up to a list of techniques learned so far?

 

I just ask all this because when ds was 9 and 10, I used R&S writing lessons, in addition to narration and dictation across the curriculum. I tried using the techniques learned in R&S writing, in his narrations, and it ended up being a huge struggle. I was editing for better verbs, better adjectives, etc., just because we had had a R&S writing lesson on that. Then I finally thought, "Wait a minute. He is reading well-written books, he is taking dictation of well-written sentences, and when he narrates, I help him to tweak any sentences he comes up with to be grammatically correct. His narration sentences ARE quite interesting and influenced by his reading, so why mess with the content - just edit for grammar/mechanics/sentence structure." I then went on to figure that since he was only 9/10 yo, I should just concentrate on still just helping him put his thoughts into words/grammatically correct sentences, instead of taking him farther just yet with improving verbs/adjectives/adverbs, etc.. Grammar rules learned, yes - content improvement suggestions from R&S, not yet. Not until he gets really comfortable with writing up little summaries of his reading.

 

And you know what? His content kept improving. He is developing his own "voice." And as he sets his thoughts down on paper, there are times when I will narrow in on things like better verbs or adjectives, but that's only after we've gotten a bigger sweep - when he fixes the sentence to be grammatically correct, often he will fix a verb or adjective anyway, because in the process of fixing for grammar, his thought will clarify itself in his mind, and he will change something else. And I only edit grammar/mechanics/sentence structure for things he has learned in R&S so far - if it's a mistake beyond that, I just tell him how to correct it/word it.

 

So, all that to say, might your daughter be getting overwhelmed with techniques right now, and struggling with putting her own thoughts to paper? If so, could she slow down and work on putting her thoughts to words a bit at a time? Sometimes I think working with a 3 or 4 sentence summary of history/science/literature is much easier than working with a multi-paragraph piece, esp. at 9. It's easier to "fix" the grammar/mechanics/sentence structure rules that she has learned so far, it's easier to think through what she really means, so that she can clarify it. And small pieces like this are not overwhelming, yet they are constant practice.

 

NEVER let your dc get away w/out red ink!

 

I agree with the overall idea of "writing is a process - never stop with the first draft." That first draft is the getting the thoughts out of the head and onto paper. However, I will say that after my kids are basically comfortable with getting their thoughts into words and on paper (which took until beginning of 5th for ds), because I only edit for grammar/mechanics/sentence structure so far (which often produces changes in some content), there have been a couple of times when I've handed a narration back to ds and said, "Well done. No grammar/mechanic/sentence structure corrections needed." It's not often, but when when there are none of those kinds of mistakes, I see no need to go in and start talking about content just yet. That will come a little later, when I feel he is really good at grammar/mechanics/sentence structure.

 

To me it's just the age, that you're her mom, and perfectly normal. Not that it's ideal, but it's normal.

 

:iagree:

 

hth, and I apologize if I'm way off base with my questions about your dd. :)

Edited September 19, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Colleen in NS]

show my students copies of some original manuscripts of some very famous writers. The handout showed scratched out sentences, scrawled notes, etc.

 

I like this idea for older students! Thanks for sharing.

[unsinkable]

:iagree: In my years as a writer/editor for the Navy, I chose to use green ink on anything marked up by hand. Red makes people, well, see red! I don't know what it is, but it makes a difference. And when I talk about the paper I always cite a couple things that are good about it before I start in on any areas to adjust. Learning how to talk to an author is very, very important, even if the authors are our children.

 

That's so timely! For one of my ds's classes he needed a red OR green ink pen...that must be why.

[HappyGrace]

I was gone all day-just getting back here! What wonderful suggestions!!! There is something I can take to help me from each post. I'm going to sit down tomorrow and read through again and jot down ideas. Thank you to everyone!

 

I hope this thread has been helpful to others too!

[EKS]

Lately I've been having my son make corrections on his work as we talk about it.

 

Also, now that he can type, using the word processor is much better for making corrections.