Do you demand "instant obedience" from your jr. high/high school kids?

[Melissa in CA]

I won't go into the lengthy details and why I am asking this, but I am curious if perhaps I am WAY off base in my thinking.

 

My 12 yo loves to 'discuss' and if he is told something that he finds completely illogical, he will ask questions. For example: He was at his cousins house and they were going to jump on the trampoline. My ds recommended they play with light sabers on the trampoline. His cousin, who is also his age, told him that they were not allowed to play with anything on the trampoline. My son asked why. He told him that by playing with them on the trampoline, you might get stabbed. My son said, yeah but they are made of plasitc....and they collapse! :confused: His cousin went on to say how dangerous it was, yadda, yadda, yadda. My son found the whole conversation irrational and illogical because everything he said could happen OFF the trampoline, yet that is OK. Then his cousin said to his mom, "we're not allowed to have toys on the trampoline right mom?" She said, "No toys on the trampoline." Then immediately, her older son, who is 14, said, "What about a ball, you can't get hurt with a ball?" Well, according to my ds she went a bit ballistic by him asking that very innocent question. She took him into the other room and said who knows what, and then when her dh came home my ds got reprimanded for questioning authority. Needless to say, he came home yesterday from their house quite ticked off that they zeroed in on him saying he doesn't respect authority when all he was doing was asking for a logical answer from her son...not her.

 

My ds loves his cousins, but finds this whole family illogical. Another example: They are not allowed to watch Vegi Tale movies because, well, vegetables do not talk. They then put my ds down when he mentions anything about vegi-tales insinuating that by him watching them he's not a very wise person...yet they watch and love the movie Cars! :confused: He wants to know what the difference is between talking cars and talking vegetables? I find that a legitimate question.

 

Anyhow, back to my main question. Am I doing my son a disservice by allowing him to 'make his case' when I ask him to do something he finds unacceptable? Or should I demand instant obedience with no questions asked? Am I creating a child who loves to argue?? When he makes his case with me, he does it respectfully, and I listen to his arguments and encourage him to reason it out. I want him to think things through and not just follow someones thinking blindly, KWIM? He never wins his case with me, but I will let him reason with me and sometimes I will concede to certain points he has made. I find this is healthy. :confused: Am I completely off-base?

 

When my boys were young, I always required obedience with no questions asked, But, at 12 and up?

[SonshineLearner]

If you say..."come here" and they ignore you...that's not right. But, in a case where time isn't of the essence, I can't see where it'd be healthy for them to never wonder...and thus question..."Why?"

Carrie:-)

[JennifersLost]

It's okay for my kids to talk about issues, but being challenged on everything gets really annoying really quickly for me.

 

Sounds to me like your ds's cousin got in trouble because your ds was being "smart-alecky" about the situation and the cousin's mom couldn't yell at him.

 

I know it really annoys me when I have set rules in my house for specific reasons and my kids' friends get that snarky, pre-teen thing going because the rules "don't make sense" to them.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way. It's a pre-teen's job to be snarky and questioning. Just like it's a toddler's job to run into traffic. Doesn't mean I'm going to waste any of my time "reasoning" with either of them if I don't feel like it.

 

Hmmm. This sound harsh, but you know what I mean? Light sabers on a trampoline? No freaking way! LOL. End of discussion.

[Melissa in CA]

If you say..."come here" and they ignore you...that's not right.

 

Oh definitely! My kids would NEVER do such a thing. We require obedience, but when it comes to certain rules we make, I do allow them to question the whys behind them and tell us how they feel about said rule. Respectfully.

[Melissa in CA]

It's okay for my kids to talk about issues, but being challenged on everything gets really annoying really quickly for me.

 

Sounds to me like your ds's cousin got in trouble because your ds was being "smart-alecky" about the situation and the cousin's mom couldn't yell at him.

 

I know it really annoys me when I have set rules in my house for specific reasons and my kids' friends get that snarky, pre-teen thing going because the rules "don't make sense" to them.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way. It's a pre-teen's job to be snarky and questioning. Just like it's a toddler's job to run into traffic. Doesn't mean I'm going to waste any of my time "reasoning" with either of them if I don't feel like it.

 

Hmmm. This sound harsh, but you know what I mean? Light sabers on a trampoline? No freaking way! LOL. End of discussion.

 

:lol: I completely understand. You see, they used to play light sabers on the trampoline at their house all the time....for years! They, his cousins, were the ones to make up the game they play...which has never hurt anyone. This is a new rule, so my ds was wondering why. He's never disrespectful, or snarky, but I know what you mean as he does have friends who are very much so. ;)

[Carol in Cal.]

Each family has the right to set rules for their own children to follow everywhere. And each family has the right to set rules for their own house.

 

I think that your son was very rude to question the rule at the other person's house. And to continue that questioning further was ridiculous--very disrespectful. The adults in another family are not required to explain their rules to a mouthy kid, and should not have their authority challenged like that. I don't require instant obedience from my DD all the time at age 13, but I do expect her to follow the rules of another house when she is there unless she is expected to do something wrong or not in accord with our standards, in which case she needs to very politely decline.

 

At our house she can ask why like your DS did, but once we have been through a couple of rounds I might say something short and sweet like 'asked and answered' or 'that is all I have to say about this' or even 'please do as I say.'

[TwinMominTX]

I think that sometimes questioning authority is ok. I think it was permissible for your son to ask why they couldn't have toys on the trampoline. However, at age 12 kids need to understand that the rules are the rules and they don't necessarily need to make sense. That isn't up to them...it is up to the parent in charge at the time. Not getting a "good answer" isn't reason to disobey and at a certain point, continuing to question is rude and disrespectful.

 

The whole movie thing is odd and would drive me crazy, but I'd just tell him that people are different and it takes all kids to make the world go round!

 

Have you gone through the Fallacy Detective with your son? Reading your post made me think that while he might still be frustrated with some of the rules that don't make sense, at least he would be able to identify them and put a name to them!

[jg_puppy]

Each family has the right to set rules for their own children to follow everywhere. And each family has the right to set rules for their own house.

 

I think that your son was very rude to question the rule at the other person's house. And to continue that questioning further was ridiculous--very disrespectful. The adults in another family are not required to explain their rules to a mouthy kid, and should not have their authority challenged like that. I don't require instant obedience from my DD all the time at age 13, but I do expect her to follow the rules of another house when she is there unless she is expected to do something wrong or not in accord with our standards, in which case she needs to very politely decline.

 

At our house she can ask why like your DS did, but once we have been through a couple of rounds I might say something short and sweet like 'asked and answered' or 'that is all I have to say about this' or even 'please do as I say.'

 

:iagree: My kids are younger, but this is how I handle things at our house.

[Melissa in CA]

 

I think that your son was very rude to question the rule at the other person's house. And to continue that questioning further was ridiculous--very disrespectful. The adults in another family are not required to explain their rules to a mouthy kid, and should not have their authority challenged like that.

 

You misunderstand. My ds was NOT questioning his aunt! My ds is not mouthy or disrespectful. :confused: He was asking his cousin why the rules had changed and getting really dumb illogical answers in reply. When his cousin went to his mom and asked her, and she said "no toys on the trampoline." My son did not question further. It was her 14 yo who then asked, very respectfully, about using a ball. And it was his questioning that caused her to get angry, because they require instant obedience and do not allow their authority to be questioned. Period.

 

I think some of you are jumping to conclusions here. :confused:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rules can be up for discussion when appropriate and the manner is appropriate. However, it really is irritating when EVERYTHING leads to "why?" or "but blah blah blah." Also, one thing my kids always do with other adults (and usually with me) is comply FIRST.

 

But sitting there asking why and arguing about how he thinks the rule is illogical is disrespectful to me. READING it, I was sure your son was in the wrong. It sounded exhausting. Then add another child chiming in? I don't blame the mother for being irritated by it. Of course, if she really went "ballistic" that isn't right either. I simply say somethign to the effect of "that's enough" or "Thank you for following the rule..."

 

The appropriate thing would have been to say, "oh, okay" and toss the light saber to the ground. Later he could discuss it reasonably. If it were just friends, I would say he could chat with you about it. Being family, there may have been the opportunity to discuss it with them respectfully.

 

I don't mind answering honest questions. I think it's healthy for kids, even those MUCH younger than 12 or 14. But It really does need to be couched well and not sound like a kid is being obnoxious. And it can't be one thing after another either. Some kids really do question absolutely EVERYTHING and it's terribly frustrating.

 

It could be that this happens more time than this mother is comfy with. I would limit questioning, at least til after compliance, for many kids who just seem to take it too far. Of course, I would LET them know that too.

 

So kid and adult could have done better....

 

JMO,

 

ETA: I see your response...that he was asking the child, not the mother. That does make some difference, but did mom hear this conversation? And the kid still felt HE needed mom to back up the rule because your son wouldn't back off. I don't want my kids exasperating their friends and family any more than the adults, ya know? And it's not his fault the 14yo chimed in, but had he backed off and just "got" that sometimes rules don't seem to make sense, then he wouldn't be inciting another child to carry on along that vein either.

 

Of course, you're WELCOME to just disagree with me and a few others. No big deal.

 

Again, maybe the adults in this scenario were not right either, but there are a few social/respect skills the kiddo can learn also.

Edited August 19, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[TwinMominTX]

Just from my own experience, I have to tell you it bugs me when kids are over at my house and question *my* kids about rules we have at our house. Even if they aren't questioning me directly, they are still indirectly questioning my authority and putting my kids in a tough spot.

 

Sometimes my kids have rules that they might not even think to question me about. They know to obey simply because they know that I love them dearly and want them to be safe and because they are expected to obey. They often don't even think to question the rules because they trust me and we've established a relationship that allows them to follow my rules out of trust. When other kids question my own kids about my rules I see it (at the least) annoying and rude and (at the worst) usurping my authority or at least encouraging my kids to question my authority.

[Mommyof4ks]

I think by the age of 12 or so a child knows clearly there are different rules for different situations. It is not ok for example to argue with a police officer even though you may be right, talk to the judge at the appropriate time. Questioning the reasoning for a policy at work may not be a good idea unless you personally know the boss. However questioning the reasoning behind a rule that you as a parent set up is perfectly fine. They are learning how to gain understanding of why things are done in a certain way, it challenges them to think outside of their own knowledge of a subject, and they learn to compromise and work together to find a solution if in fact the rule is found to be unreasonable. Questioning the rules of another adult would not be right, but the child of the other adult should be allowed to question the why behind rules. The bottom line in that situation though is that the other mom has the rule and it should be followed even if it is silly.

 

Not to get off topic, but I think that is part of the problem with so many people; they blindly follow authority even into adulthood and never learn to ask 'why' until they get tired of following and then they rebel just because they don't like a rule or whatever. People are more likely to follow rules if they know why (think about the reason grandma won't take her meds, because the doc never told her what would happen if she did not take them). We tell our toddlers that they cannot run in the street because a car may hit them and hurt them badly, so why not explain the reason behind no lightsabers on the trampoline. I know I have made some silly rules until someone called me on it and I had a chance to re-evaluate it.

[5KidzRUs]

My ds recommended they play with light sabers on the trampoline. His cousin, who is also his age, told him that they were not allowed to play with anything on the trampoline. My son asked why. He told him that by playing with them on the trampoline, you might get stabbed. My son said, yeah but they are made of plasitc....and they collapse! :confused: His cousin went on to say how dangerous it was, yadda, yadda, yadda. My son found the whole conversation irrational and illogical because everything he said could happen OFF the trampoline, yet that is OK?

 

 

If it were my house/trampoline/rules I would think it disrespectful of my visiting cousin to question my parents rules. My house, my rules.

If the child wants to play with light sabers on the trampoline he can do it where it is allowed if his parent permits. PERIOD.

I think what he needs is 'tact' - yes, it is OK to question inappropriate rules - but logically, there is nothing for him to gain by questioning this rule.

If it were my child I would have them apologize to the parent - and then talk to them about learning how to gauge situations for appropriateness and deciding whether or not they have anything to gain by questioning or confronting that situation.

This is a good people skill and this skill will come in handy when they are in the work place and if their boss is a jerk.

My children have all read - and I have heard that Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a good resource.

[Melissa in FL]

We are raising our children like you are raising yours. We had a serious conflict with our neighbors because my ds (also 12) will ask the whys of what someone is asking of him. He's never disrespectful, but this family didn't like ds asking that question (mainly I think because they couldn't answer why). After a lot of contemplation I have realized it's a basic question of what our beliefs in raising children are. My neighbors are raising nice obedient children that do as they are told immediately. We are raising our children to be adults. We want them to have critical thinking skills, the ability to question bad policies, the knowledge that it's right to stand up and fight for what is right, the tools to logically explain why someone (whether their boss, employee, or congressman) is in the wrong. Even though it's tough to sometimes always have an answer to all the whys, we are teaching our kids to know the what's of why something is in place. Now my kids do understand that sometimes they have to obey without question and I will answer them later. They are not disrespectful (well, sometimes the 8yr old is, but we're working on it). Nice, obedient children are wonderful to be around, but I don't think neighbor kids will have the tools to succeed in life without a lot of hard lessons (I know this because I was a nice, obedient child and it took me years to learn to be an adult). We're looking towards the end-goal, adulthood. I think if you reflect that is what you are doing too. It takes that kind of questioning to get there. Keep it up, it sounds like you are doing great!

Melissa

[Joanne]

The Veggie Tale/Car issue is a great "catch" by your son and, depending on context, fuels good discussion.

 

The light saber issue? Her house, her rules. End.of.discussion.

[Carol in Cal.]

Your quote was:

" Then his cousin said to his mom, "we're not allowed to have toys on the trampoline right mom?" She said, "No toys on the trampoline." Then immediately, her older son, who is 14, said, "What about a ball, you can't get hurt with a ball?""

 

 

And your later quote was:

It was her 14 yo who then asked, very respectfully, about using a ball.

 

And to me, the first quote does not sound like 'asking very respectfully'. Right after the mom says flatly, "No toys on the trampoline", the son says, "What about a ball, you can't get hurt with a ball?"--sorry, but that is NOT respectful, particularly if done in the hearing of a guest.

[Melissa in CA]

I think by the age of 12 or so a child knows clearly there are different rules for different situations. It is not ok for example to argue with a police officer even though you may be right, talk to the judge at the appropriate time. Questioning the reasoning for a policy at work may not be a good idea unless you personally know the boss. However questioning the reasoning behind a rule that you as a parent set up is perfectly fine. They are learning how to gain understanding of why things are done in a certain way, it challenges them to think outside of their own knowledge of a subject, and they learn to compromise and work together to find a solution if in fact the rule is found to be unreasonable. Questioning the rules of another adult would not be right, but the child of the other adult should be allowed to question the why behind rules. The bottom line in that situation though is that the other mom has the rule and it should be followed even if it is silly.

 

Not to get off topic, but I think that is part of the problem with so many people; they blindly follow authority even into adulthood and never learn to ask 'why' until they get tired of following and then they rebel just because they don't like a rule or whatever. People are more likely to follow rules if they know why (think about the reason grandma won't take her meds, because the doc never told her what would happen if she did not take them). We tell our toddlers that they cannot run in the street because a car may hit them and hurt them badly, so why not explain the reason behind no lightsabers on the trampoline. I know I have made some silly rules until someone called me on it and I had a chance to re-evaluate it.

 

:iagree: Thanks for your post Wendy...this is how I see things. It's good to know I am not the only one. :confused:

 

As for my son questioning the authority of his aunt's decision. I have already explained to him that by questioning his cousin, he was in essence questioning his aunt & uncle, and that by doing so he was in the wrong. He sees that now, and understands. He's going to write a letter of apology.

 

Now, on another note, not to make excuses for him (ds), but his cousin drives him BONKERS, and I think he secretly enjoys flustering him with logical questioning. His cousin does not know how to think logically at all. He seems to see it as trying to teach his cousin to think about what he is saying. The kid truly is illogical. But, in this instance, he should have let it go and respected the house rules. I think my son needs to be a lawyer....he seems to be naturally geared in that direction. :001_huh:

[Nestof3]

I think if you're okay with your son asking lots of questions, that's fine, but he does need to respect trampoline rules at another person's house.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with my son asking me these questions (unless he always felt the need to do this because he would sound purposefully antagonistic), but to keep questioning and trying to corner someone in the situation you describes honestly sounds disrespectful. She really shouldn't have to explain all of her own choices to him.

 

I can see the need for flat rules like this because depending on the age of the person jumping on the trampoline, he or she may deem something safe to jump with that isn't safe.

Edited August 19, 2009 by nestof3

[Carol in Cal.]

We are raising our children like you are raising yours. We had a serious conflict with our neighbors because my ds (also 12) will ask the whys of what someone is asking of him. He's never disrespectful, but this family didn't like ds asking that question (mainly I think because they couldn't answer why). After a lot of contemplation I have realized it's a basic question of what our beliefs in raising children are. My neighbors are raising nice obedient children that do as they are told immediately. We are raising our children to be adults. We want them to have critical thinking skills, the ability to question bad policies, the knowledge that it's right to stand up and fight for what is right, the tools to logically explain why someone (whether their boss, employee, or congressman) is in the wrong. Even though it's tough to sometimes always have an answer to all the whys, we are teaching our kids to know the what's of why something is in place. Now my kids do understand that sometimes they have to obey without question and I will answer them later. They are not disrespectful (well, sometimes the 8yr old is, but we're working on it). Nice, obedient children are wonderful to be around, but I don't think neighbor kids will have the tools to succeed in life without a lot of hard lessons (I know this because I was a nice, obedient child and it took me years to learn to be an adult). We're looking towards the end-goal, adulthood. I think if you reflect that is what you are doing too. It takes that kind of questioning to get there. Keep it up, it sounds like you are doing great!

Melissa

 

Yes, they need critical thinking skills and to stand up for what is right. But to be effective takes another step--knowing when to fight and when not to, and how to make your case when something is important enough to fight for. That's the true end goal.

[Carol in Cal.]

:

Now, on another note, not to make excuses for him (ds), but his cousin drives him BONKERS, and I think he secretly enjoys flustering him with logical questioning. His cousin does not know how to think logically at all. He seems to see it as trying to teach his cousin to think about what he is saying. The kid truly is illogical.

 

He enjoys flustering him with logical questioning? That's very unkind! I don't think that anyone would want their children to be condescending or intellectually arrogant. Sometimes we all have to be around annoying people, and it's important to learn how to still be polite and kind in that situation.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Carol in Cal.

[Melissa in CA]

And to me, the first quote does not sound like 'asking very respectfully'. Right after the mom says flatly, "No toys on the trampoline", the son says, "What about a ball, you can't get hurt with a ball?"--sorry, but that is NOT respectful, particularly if done in the hearing of a guest.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but you do not know these boys. ;)

[Melissa in CA]

He enjoys flustering him with logical questioning? That's very unkind! I don't think that anyone would want their children to be condescending or intellectually arrogant. Sometimes we all have to be around annoying people, and it's important to learn how to still be polite and kind in that situation.

 

Again, you misunderstand the situation. If you knew my ds you would know that he is a very kind and respectful child. Everyone loves him...everyone. His cousins though are very disrespectful to him and are constantly putting him down. They find him beneath them, and their ways of doing anything and everything are superior. He never fails to come home from their house close to tears. While they are snottily telling him he is wrong about something (like watching vegi-tales, or not wearing a suit to church), he is kindly reasoning with them logically. I am proud of him. I love that he can THINK for himself. I get so tired of them hurting him, the whole family...even his aunt and uncle...that I really hesitate allowing him to visit them. So, you see, you honestly don't know the whole situation.

 

My reason for bringing this up was to see if perhaps my child-rearing has been off-base all these years. Not to have you all jump to conclusions about my son being rude and disrespectful. :confused:

[Melissa in CA]

We are raising our children like you are raising yours. We had a serious conflict with our neighbors because my ds (also 12) will ask the whys of what someone is asking of him. He's never disrespectful, but this family didn't like ds asking that question (mainly I think because they couldn't answer why). After a lot of contemplation I have realized it's a basic question of what our beliefs in raising children are. My neighbors are raising nice obedient children that do as they are told immediately. We are raising our children to be adults. We want them to have critical thinking skills, the ability to question bad policies, the knowledge that it's right to stand up and fight for what is right, the tools to logically explain why someone (whether their boss, employee, or congressman) is in the wrong. Even though it's tough to sometimes always have an answer to all the whys, we are teaching our kids to know the what's of why something is in place. Now my kids do understand that sometimes they have to obey without question and I will answer them later. They are not disrespectful (well, sometimes the 8yr old is, but we're working on it). Nice, obedient children are wonderful to be around, but I don't think neighbor kids will have the tools to succeed in life without a lot of hard lessons (I know this because I was a nice, obedient child and it took me years to learn to be an adult). We're looking towards the end-goal, adulthood. I think if you reflect that is what you are doing too. It takes that kind of questioning to get there. Keep it up, it sounds like you are doing great!

Melissa

 

Melissa, thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[ETA: We raised our older boys the same way and they have turned out to be very well-adjusted wise young men who can think for themselves and not follow the crowd. They are NEVER disrespectful to us, and are assets to society. I suppose we did a good job and I probably shouldn't be second guessing my parenting philosophy with my youngest :-)]

Edited August 19, 2009 by Melissa in CA

[Pamela H in Texas]

Melissa,

 

Honestly? when we post, we take a risk that we will be misunderstood (either due to our writing or other people's reading or just not being able to couch the situation fully). We also take the risk that we'll be misunderstood.

 

Maybe your son is generally delightful. I hope so!

 

But I do think your son was in the wrong in a few ways in this (and I agree the other child and adult were in the wrong also). If you don't think so, then either you are right for your family (which would be okay) or you didn't really want to know if we thought your son was out of line since you're upset we expressed that he was.

 

The other day, we had a similar situation come up. My son made a mistake and was obnoxious about it. It was based on a misunderstanding. Regardless, if I posted about the situation, I would expect to hear that my son was disobedient, defiant, and obnoxious. That doesn't make him so generally. In fact, he's NOT. But in that situation, he was in the wrong EVEN IF I was in the wrong first (which was the consensus). I would expect various opinions about the situation had I posted details about it. Some may have been pretty harsh about my unreasonableness or my son's choice in the situation. I would just have to be tougher skinned if I chose to post it (and I don't choose to post such things because I CAN"T be tough skinned enough!).

 

Anyway, so if there was anything posted that you could use, do so. If not, toss it.

 

:)

[Carol in Cal.]

His cousins though are very disrespectful to him and are constantly putting him down. They find him beneath them, and their ways of doing anything and everything are superior. He never fails to come home from their house close to tears. While they are snottily telling him he is wrong about something (like watching vegi-tales, or not wearing a suit to church), he is kindly reasoning with them logically. I am proud of him. I love that he can THINK for himself. I get so tired of them hurting him, the whole family...even his aunt and uncle...that I really hesitate allowing him to visit them.

 

Poor little guy. I agree with you that it would be hard to let him visit them. I am not sure that I would, either.

 

This is QUITE different from the sound of what you said before.

 

It's much harder not to put down others when you're feeling put down yourself. It really doesn't sound like your DS has a good time there, and when you think about him maybe taking some pleasure in logically putting down his cousins, but coming home in tears all the time, that's not a great dynamic for anyone.

 

I think that I would be inclined to work proactively to figure how he and you should be when he is visiting them--to get ahead of the problem, since it's so recurrent.

 

I still do think that he was disrespectful in the original case--the whole 'my house, my rules, pick your battles' thing. It sounds like the context is pretty toxic, and also difficult (since family) to extricate him from.

 

Do these same things happen if you are present, or does just your being there mitigate them? I have a very few people who can visit us but DD can't visit them without me, because I just don't see a way to keep her safe there if I'm not present. I'm thinking maybe two--one someone with an active alcoholic grandmother who drives with open drinks in her hand, and the other a family member who is just really, really viscious and dishonest in a way that I consider completely unsafe. I have never discussed this rule with them, just sort of made it happen. It has been very inconvenient at times, but I think it's necessary.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Carol in Cal.

[Irene Lynn]

here are my thoughts. First, let me say that I have a girl, who has always wanted to discuss things. I do welcome discussion and I do require an obedient attitude. I required very rapid obedience, when she was younger, but most things that I ask her to do now, she is free to ask if she can finish what she is doing first. I have no problem with being very open with her about why we do things the way we do them.

 

Now, if everything was exactly as you stated (and I am not holding you to each syllable, lol, but I will use it for my response.) I would have been frustrated as the other parent. These are cousins who are familiar with each other, so there is history. Perhaps the other mother had seen a pattern of her own child questioning commonly held house rules, when a friend visited or something like that. I would have been frustrated with a child "grilling" my child about our rules. It felt a little argumentative the moment he said, "But." Now, he may not have worded it that way, so I am just addressing what I read. He may have a laid back attitude about any of the questions, I don't know. We have friends who have rules that I think are unreasonable and we have rules that some of our friends think are unreasonable.

 

I think there is a big, though subtle difference, between clarifying rules and questioning or disputing, even on a gentle level. I do not want my daughter to dispute or question another families rules, other than to clarify. Now, if they are really close and she deals with them all the time, I may encourage her to ask the parent what the rule means to them and why they find it important. To me that is fine. Body posture is also VERY important with these sorts of things. A 12 yo IS learning to think for himself and that is good. I don't want my daughter to be a mindless robot either, but she can obey "dumb" rules without becoming one.

 

I would also question the motivation behind the questioning. Was he really concerned about respecting the given authority (and like I said, it still doesn't have to be mindless) or was he ultimately wanting to play with the light saber on the trampoline? Or was it just a matter of finding out why they had a rule he thought was dumb? As the maker of the house rules, I would not appreciate questioning that was just a way to say he thought my leadership had run amuck or that was a way to get what he wanted. Again, I was not there to know how it came across in your son's situation, just these are the lines I draw in the sand for my daughter.

 

We really do have great discussions and she makes good points and helps me think things through. Sometimes a rule that makes good sense when a child is young, changes as they grow and I need that wake up call to say the time has come. :) I am also very happy to discuss with dd multiple reasons that others may have for a given rule. I would rather those discussion happen with me than the other parents, unless they are very close and the rules affect dd regularly. If any discussions need to be done, I would prefer them to be for clarification purposes only. If the child is not sure if it is alright, then I would encourage the child to ask themselves what they truly hope to accomplish with the questions.

[Jill- OK]

...the simple phrase, "Can I ask a question?"

 

If the mood is right, then the answer can be "Yes", lol, and a good, stimulating conversation can ensue. If Mom (Or Aunt) is not in the mood, however, or if Dad's on the way home, and dinner needs to get started, and she just needs everyone to pitch in and get going, then the answer might be, "No, not this time", or "Maybe later...right now I need you to do this."

 

Our kids are thoughtful, they don't mindlessly follow questionable authority (I'm talking about the ones that are teens now)...and yet we've insisted on respect from them, as their parents, and we prefer that they show respect to authority figures unless there's a mitigating circumstance. By obeying us, fairly quickly. (From the time they're little, they're taught that they can politely ask, "May I tell you something?" or "May I ask a question?" if they take issue with it, for whatever reason.)

 

It doesn't have to be an either/or question.

 

Now, when we're talking about other adults, it could be considered rude to question them/their rules. Sure, the issue seemed small enough...but was he being considerate of his hosts?

 

I absolutely want my kids to balk at doing something someone--even an adult--tells them to do that is morally wrong, doesn't "feel" right, or is dangerous. But I also want them to be respectful of others' decisions, even if they're illogical (to us). Unless they're engaging in a mutually agreed upon dialogue. That's just me.

[Pamela H in Texas]

We are raising our children to be adults. We want them to have critical thinking skills, the ability to question bad policies, the knowledge that it's right to stand up and fight for what is right, the tools to logically explain why someone (whether their boss, employee, or congressman) is in the wrong.

 

I completely agree with doing this. I just also believe there are proper ways and times to do so.

 

To use a recent board discussion: If we don't like that the lunch rule is interpreted to include "no snack sized candy bars" then there is a proper time, person, and way to approach the issue. We COULD mouth off to the teacher being snarky and blunt despite not hearing her side of the situation. But it would be more respectful, effective, etc if we handled it better.

 

I think it is great that this kid is thinking. His reasoning CAN make some sense (though I could easily argue some differences which I'm surprised hasn't come up in this thread). That is great. He NEEDS to think through things. It'll make him a better boss, parent, husband, etc. The only thing *I* would ask him would be to get better at judging when and how is appropriate. That is different in different situations! With a family one has regular contact with, this is easier because you have these sorts of situatons to judge based off of. That also is a great opportunity this boy has! The more situations people have to address, the more they will judge better in the future. Then they truly will be respectful :)

[Melissa in FL]

Yes, they need critical thinking skills and to stand up for what is right. But to be effective takes another step--knowing when to fight and when not to, and how to make your case when something is important enough to fight for. That's the true end goal.

 

Actually, I agree with you. And just like we have to practice our math facts, we have to practice when we need to stand up and speak and when to keep our mouths shut. But, to me this is more about trying to understand why the rule suddenly changed.

 

Her son had always played on the trampoline with his cousins with light sabers, played a game the cousins had made up. This time, suddenly without explanation, they weren't allowed to. It really sounds like he was trying to understand what made the rule change. He didn't jump on the trampoline and play anyway, ignoring the new rule. He asked why the rule changed. When he couldn't understand the logic in the new rule, he questioned further. I don't think this was a case of trying to be defiant, it was a case of trying to understand.

 

According to the original post the Uncle came and "and then when her dh came home my ds got reprimanded for questioning authority." I don't think he was questioning authority, he wasn't going to break the new rule and go on the trampoline, he was trying to understand why the "authority" changed what was working before. I think before the Aunt went "ballistic" she could have simply ended it by saying "I read an article that twice as many kids who play with toys on a trampoline get hurt", or "when you guys have toys up there you are more rowdy, and someone is more likely to get hurt", or "after thinking about it, we just decided we were more comfortable with a no toy rule". If it was my son in this situation any of those would have ended the conversation.

 

Like learning anything, it's a process. My kids are slowly learning that sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and live with it. And that's OK too. But I really think it's healthy for kids to question things they don't understand. And that's how I interpreted what happened.

Melissa

[Julie in CA]

I've only had time to skim the replies to your original message, but I can see that you are leaning towards the viewpoint that you are right, and people who disagree are probably either misreading your situation, or are flat-out wrong. With that said, you did *ask* the question to begin with, so I'll answer what you asked...

 

I think it's not a question of first-time obedience, it's a question of respect for other people, including but not limited to those in authority over you. Whether you (or your ds) believe that someone is thinking logically or not, it's incredibly rude to push any conversation that far. Your ds does owe them an apology, and yes, I believe you are indeed doing your ds a bit of a disservice in allowing him to habitually question without regard to how it may be perceived by other people.

 

If one of my dc has a question about a viewpoint I hold, I allow them a lot of lattitude in asking me to clarify, however, clarifying the "why" does not extend to questioning decisions that I've made unless they believe I have made a decision without knowing all of the facts, in which case they may politely ask for clarification. There's a difference between needing to understand why a particular decision has been made, and pestering in a way that clearly shows their disdain for a decision, or their unwillingness to comply, kwim?

 

Sometimes the right thing to do is just go along with someone even if you don't agree, as long as they're not asking you to do anything immoral or illegal. It's really, really hard to try to "make" other people be logical. I know, I've tried! ;) Maybe think of it not so much as a "first-time obedience" thing, but as an "I'm teaching my kid to be polite" thing?

[Danestress]

You misunderstand. My ds was NOT questioning his aunt! My ds is not mouthy or disrespectful. :confused: He was asking his cousin why the rules had changed and getting really dumb illogical answers in reply.

 

 

I wouldn't have a trampoline. THAT seems sort of dumb to me, from an orthopedic standpoint. Reasonable minds can disagree on this, of course. But if I did have a trampoline, I probably would have a "no toys" rule and that might include balls, but maybe not - I'm not sure because I haven't viewed that. But I think toys can be distracting and even a plastic toy seems like a bad idea. In any case, I am sure his aunt has her reasons (maybe "no toys" is simply easier to enforce than "no dangerous toys") but I think it's a bit much to expect another kid this age to have a logical explanation for all the family rules. Maybe the explanations sounded "dumb" and "illogical" to him, but he's talking to a kid that just understands what the family rules are and hasn't necessarily analyzed them to make sure that they hold up to logical scrutiny.

 

In any case, I wouldn't be talking to your son about how the adults are parenting their son. If you want to talk about it, I would talk about it to your sister. Maybe your son doesn't understand the whole situation. She might give you a different perspective than you are getting from your 12 year old.

 

But no, the short answer is that I am not really an "instant obedience" person and never really have been. Even when my kids were smaller, I wasn't one to need instant control. I'm probably stricter than most parents around me, but never quite as much as a lot of online homeschoolers seem to be. I can't even seem to train my dog for total instant obedience!

[JennifersLost]

Sounds to me like this wasn't really about the kids or parenting at all.

 

Sounds to me like this family and yours do LOTS of things differently and that it's been an issue that other mom has had to deal with for a long time. I bet that mom has had to explain tons of times to her kids why there are these differences.

 

Sometimes that gets frustrating. Face it; we all make rules. Some are about beliefs, others about convenience. Sometimes there isn't much of a reason at all. And at that particular moment, it was annoying to that mom to be questioned.

 

Yeah - she does sound rigid and annoying herself. But I've over-reacted plenty of times in my parenting....

 

Maybe it would be more helpful to focus on the underlying issue: It sounds like your son has a lousy time every time he goes there! I think I would just cut back on the time these kids spend together.

[Carol in Cal.]

Actually, I agree with you. And just like we have to practice our math facts, we have to practice when we need to stand up and speak and when to keep our mouths shut. But, to me this is more about trying to understand why the rule suddenly changed.

 

I think before the Aunt went "ballistic" she could have simply ended it by saying "I read an article that twice as many kids who play with toys on a trampoline get hurt", or "when you guys have toys up there you are more rowdy, and someone is more likely to get hurt", or "after thinking about it, we just decided we were more comfortable with a no toy rule". If it was my son in this situation any of those would have ended the conversation.

 

But I really think it's healthy for kids to question things they don't understand. And that's how I interpreted what happened.

Melissa

 

I don't think he was trying to understand why the rule changed. And even if he was, in someone else's house I don't think that that's any of his business. I think that he was requiring them to justify their rule.

 

I can certainly understand why he would be curious about it, but it's just a rude question to ask. At his own house, sure. At someone else's, no way. Certainly the Aunt could have answered him but I seriously doubt that that would have ended the conversation. If I were the Aunt, I would not have answered him because I would not have wanted to engage in that conversation and risk having him take it go even further. It's analogous to the 'pass the bean dip' advice that we give all the time on these boards about avoiding inappropriate questions and challenges, with the added wrinkle that this time it's a child who is being inappropriate.

 

Now, in general, it doesn't sound like the aunt or cousins are treating him well generally, but narrowly looking at just this specific situation, he was in the wrong.

[Melissa in CA]

I agree with you that it would be hard to let him visit them. I am not sure that I would, either.

 

It IS hard. If he had more friends, I would probably say no each and every time. But we live in the boonies far from town and he has zero friends here. In order to play with other children we have to invite them out, pick them up and take them home. So, when his cousins call and ask if he can come visit, he has to weigh the decision. Go, and possibly be hurt by their self-righteousness, or stay home. His desire to be with other children usually outweighs the hurt factor unless I step in and just flat-out say, "no." So, he knows going in that they may be mean to him, and those are the chances he takes in visiting. It makes ME crazy, and I get so frustrated when he does come home hurt. But, I often let him make that decision for himself and he then has to live with the consequences.

 

This is QUITE different from the sound of what you said before.

Well, I didn't want to get into all the background/history. I was mostly wanting thoughts on parenting philosophies...the no questions allowed, blind obedience, etc, position some parents take. I know you disagree, but I would never punish my 14 yo for quitely asking if a ball would be OK. I thought his request was reasonable considering the reasons for the rule. So, that got me wondering if perhaps allowing my son to express his thoughts on a rule of ours is wrong. Perhaps other parents want blind obedience, no questions asked from their 14 yo's males who at some point have to learn to reason and be authority figures themselves. I was second guessing myself.

 

I still do think that he was disrespectful in the original case--the whole 'my house, my rules, pick your battles' thing. It sounds like the context is pretty toxic, and also difficult (since family) to extricate him from.

 

:iagree: In essence he was definitely being disrespectful and that has been discussed with him at length, both last night and this morning. At the time, he didn't feel asking his cousin why the rules had changed was being disrespectful toward his aunt and uncle. It was a learning experience.

 

Do these same things happen if you are present

Yes, but not to the extent they do when he is alone with them. They feel more free to discuss his apparent weaknesses with him when we are not around. :glare:

[ConnieB]

Raising a thinking child and one who will question authority when they disagree can never be wrong! I encourage my children to challenge my decisions so long as it is done with respect, calmly and that ultimately if I tell them that the conversation is over, it is over. They need to learn when someone with authority over them needs to prevail even if they disagree. I want thinking children, not rebels. And I think learning that difference now when the decisions are about playing on a trampoline, or being allowed to go to a particular movie will make it easier for them to discern later as adults when they should give in to authority and when giving in is not in their best interest. Most of the examples I can think of are politically charged, religious, or legal in nature, so I'll not cite examples so as not to throw the subject too far off, lol.

 

I explain it to my children in the same way that I explained different rules at different houses. Obviously, when your son is at Auntie's house he needs to follow her rules....perhaps he can raise his objection respectfully but if it's met with her repeating the rules than he should accept her decision as final and end his discussion. He's very likely going to need to learn that restraint and how to challenge the frustration (or even anger) that doing this will bring for his adult life.....or he could find himself losing more than one job over it....or worse. For opinionated people (hmmm, me maybe), that's a difficult thing to learn, so this could be a very important time for him to learn it while he's young, so it's easier to know when to keep your opinions to yourself later in life.

 

All that said, please tell him that I totally agree with his logic about Veggie Tales and Cars! Plus, I think Veggie Tales has better "moral of the story" moments, so of the two I'd rather my kids watch Veggie Tales (though I have no objection to Cars, just this example makes it the lesser of the two goods).

 

His logic about the trampoline is also sound except when you remember that a trampoline is high off the ground....so horsing around with light sabers on a trampoline could cause harm because those toys tend to make the users dash back and forth.....a dangerous thing when a step off the trampoline can mean injury.....but a dash across the ground won't have that consequence. There's always another side to the argument right? LOL

 

Good luck to your son!

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

Well, I didn't want to get into all the background/history. I was mostly wanting thoughts on parenting philosophies...the no questions allowed, blind obedience, etc, position some parents take. I know you disagree, but I would never punish my 14 yo for quitely asking if a ball would be OK. I thought his request was reasonable considering the reasons for the rule. So, that got me wondering if perhaps allowing my son to express his thoughts on a rule of ours is wrong. Perhaps other parents want blind obedience, no questions asked from their 14 yo's males who at some point have to learn to reason and be authority figures themselves. I was second guessing myself.

 

 

 

 

I do let my DD ask me those kinds of questions at our home, and I wouldn't punish her for doing so, but I would see it quite differently if she did it in front of one of her friends or anyone else except DH. I think that it's disrespectful to challenge your parent or scold your child in front of others. I don't do the one, and I expect my DD not to do the other. If your DS could hear the 14YO asking that question, then I htink that the nephew was out of line. But if it was in private, just the 14YO and the mom, I would see no problem with it.

 

Truly, Melissa, I think we are very similar in our outlook.

[Mommyof4ks]

:iagree: Thanks for your post Wendy...this is how I see things. It's good to know I am not the only one. :confused:

 

As for my son questioning the authority of his aunt's decision. I have already explained to him that by questioning his cousin, he was in essence questioning his aunt & uncle, and that by doing so he was in the wrong. He sees that now, and understands. He's going to write a letter of apology.

 

Now, on another note, not to make excuses for him (ds), but his cousin drives him BONKERS, and I think he secretly enjoys flustering him with logical questioning. His cousin does not know how to think logically at all. He seems to see it as trying to teach his cousin to think about what he is saying. The kid truly is illogical. But, in this instance, he should have let it go and respected the house rules. I think my son needs to be a lawyer....he seems to be naturally geared in that direction. :001_huh:

 

Perhaps your son could try to use other examples with the cousin that doesn't involve rules. Science is great for these kinds of questions. Why do researchers think X is true, could there be another explanation and does their reasoning even make sense, that sort of thing. Logic has greatly been lost, and thanks to this forum I have learned that it is really a learned skill that I will need to work with my kids on as they get older. The boys could use their thinking skill for good lol.

 

Your son may very well make a great lawyer, and I think many will agree that we could use a few more logical ones. :)

[Hsmomto4]

This is how it works in our family. If I tell you (using a commanding sentence) you MAY NOT question me. If I ask a question, if I say lets discuss or talk about or I may even say what do you think...then you can give me your opinion. Otherwise if I say it's red...it's red...even if it is green.

[Melissa in CA]

Actually, I agree with you. And just like we have to practice our math facts, we have to practice when we need to stand up and speak and when to keep our mouths shut. But, to me this is more about trying to understand why the rule suddenly changed.

 

Her son had always played on the trampoline with his cousins with light sabers, played a game the cousins had made up. This time, suddenly without explanation, they weren't allowed to. It really sounds like he was trying to understand what made the rule change. He didn't jump on the trampoline and play anyway, ignoring the new rule. He asked why the rule changed. When he couldn't understand the logic in the new rule, he questioned further. I don't think this was a case of trying to be defiant, it was a case of trying to understand.

 

According to the original post the Uncle came and "and then when her dh came home my ds got reprimanded for questioning authority." I don't think he was questioning authority, he wasn't going to break the new rule and go on the trampoline, he was trying to understand why the "authority" changed what was working before. I think before the Aunt went "ballistic" she could have simply ended it by saying "I read an article that twice as many kids who play with toys on a trampoline get hurt", or "when you guys have toys up there you are more rowdy, and someone is more likely to get hurt", or "after thinking about it, we just decided we were more comfortable with a no toy rule". If it was my son in this situation any of those would have ended the conversation.

 

Like learning anything, it's a process. My kids are slowly learning that sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and live with it. And that's OK too. But I really think it's healthy for kids to question things they don't understand. And that's how I interpreted what happened.

Melissa

 

Thank you again, Melissa. This was the situation exactly. My ds has been to their house many, many times and each and EVERY time they play light sabers on the trampoline...EVERYTIME...which is why my ds brought his light saber with him. He was just trying to understand what changed the rules, he was not purposefully being disrespectful. He WAS disrespectful, and again, we've discussed that with him. But he wasn't trying to be snarky, obnoxious, disrespectful, or the like.

[Supertechmom]

Perhaps something happened last time between the two on the trampoline thus making the rule change. OR something happened between her children that she didn't want to go into with your son.

 

I have the same sort of style with my 12 year old as you have described but would not be happy that he questioned the rule change. Sometimes rules change. Sometimes you will never know the whys. Knowing when and how to question the change is as important as knowing you can question it.

 

And while it might be fine for me to tell my child why I have changed the rules, expecting other adults to back up their thoughts and rules to a 12 year old is more than most are going to do. I don't require instant obedience from mine and we have more than our share of discussions but I am simply not going to engage in that type of conversation with other children.

 

So while I don't require instant obedience form mine, I also don't expect to be questioned by other kids about my decisions or have them question my children. The why behind the rule may very well be none of their business. I do have one little boy who comes over that questions every step I take it seems and I shut him down quickly because I just get tired of the constant justification to him (which is how it seems after a while no matter how polite and well mannered the questions are). Fully satisfying his desire to understand my rule is just not always on my plate for the day, KWIM?

[katilac]

I am also raising my children to be thoughtful, questioning, independent adults. However, I am not raising visiting children this way, because I am not raising them at all. Frankly, I don't have the energy or the inclination to explain every darn decision to every kid that walks in the door to play.

 

My kids know that they can respectfully ask about why we do things in a certain way, or have certain rules. That's a home team privilege, though; when you're a guest, it's not appropriate. You do not question the rules or decisions at someone else's house, kid or adult.

 

If you drove to a friend's house, and they asked you not to park in a certain area, would you turn around and ask why not? If they said it's because your truck was too heavy for the cement, would you argue that it was not that much heavier than their own truck, or that the cement was strong enough? Hopefully, you'd simply park your truck as asked.

 

This, to me, is not a "kid" issue but a "guest" issue. Don't be a pain in the butt to your hosts. If you aren't willing to follow other people's rules, don't visit other people.

 

 

We are raising our children like you are raising yours. We had a serious conflict with

our neighbors because my ds (also 12) will ask the whys of what someone is asking of him. He's never disrespectful, but this family didn't like ds asking that question (mainly I think because they couldn't answer why). After a lot of contemplation I have realized it's a basic question of what our beliefs in raising children are. My neighbors are raising nice obedient children that do as they are told immediately. We are raising our children to be adults. We want them to have critical thinking skills, the ability to question bad policies, the knowledge that it's right to stand up and fight for what is right, the tools to logically explain why someone (whether their boss, employee, or congressman) is in the wrong. Even though it's tough to sometimes always have an answer to all the whys, we are teaching our kids to know the what's of why something is in place. Now my kids do understand that sometimes they have to obey without question and I will answer them later. They are not disrespectful (well, sometimes the 8yr old is, but we're working on it). Nice, obedient children are wonderful to be around, but I don't think neighbor kids will have the tools to succeed in life without a lot of hard lessons (I know this because I was a nice, obedient child and it took me years to learn to be an adult). We're looking towards the end-goal, adulthood. I think if you reflect that is what you are doing too. It takes that kind of questioning to get there. Keep it up, it sounds like you are doing great!

Melissa

[kmacnchs]

When your son questioned his cousin, that was okay. When he questioned him repeatedly, he probably put the child in an uncomfortable situation...do I stick up for my mom's rules (the respectful thing to do) or agree with my friend/cousin/peer? (I was not there but...)The mom probably thought she was being challenged by her son (14yo) and reacted in kind...the rule probably changed b/c someone got hurt and maybe she reacted quickly because it has been discussed and even challenged before. This is all speculation of course.

 

I was taught to ALWAYS speak my mind and it really made me wise in my own eyes and got me in trouble...A LOT! I mean, all the way through hs, college, the workforce, and in my marriage! There is something to be said about respecting authority and NOT always speaking your mind (as long as your morals are not being challenged). It is not a bad thing to not always have the last word...just be careful that your son does not think himself wiser than he is (speaking as one who has gone through that and still struggles with having the last word) - I think it is (and will be) doing him a disservice.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I know you disagree, but I would never punish my 14 yo for quitely asking if a ball would be OK. I thought his request was reasonable considering the reasons for the rule. So, that got me wondering if perhaps allowing my son to express his thoughts on a rule of ours is wrong. Perhaps other parents want blind obedience, no questions asked from their 14 yo's males who at some point have to learn to reason and be authority figures themselves. I was second guessing myself.

 

Obviously you got your feelings hurt because people saw the situation you described (btw, without YOU being there) differently than you did; but throwing unreasonable jabs at others probably won't make you feel better and it certainly doesn't make your case.

 

If you are fine with all of the boys' behavior, then so be it.

Edited August 19, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[phathui5]

When we are home, and I tell the kids something, they are welcome to tell me why they disagree. I might change my mind and let them do it, I might still say no.

 

When we're at someone else's house and the parent there tells them no, I expect them to go "Yes, Ma'am/Sir."

[Corraleno]

Raising a thinking child and one who will question authority when they disagree can never be wrong!

:iagree:

If my child said "That's a stupid rule!" I would find that disrespectful, but asking WHY a certain rule exists ~ I totally don't understand why that would be considered disrespectful. :confused:

 

In fact, I think that refusing to answer a child's question about why a certain rule exists is disrespectful to the CHILD. I have never expected blind obedience from my kids; frankly I don't think any human being owes blind obedience to any other person, parent or not. I think relationships should be based on mutual respect, not obedience. I grew up with a mother whose answer to every question I ever asked about why I couldn't (or must) do something was "Because I'm your mother and I said so!" It drove me nuts, I found it really rude and disrespectful to me, as if being a child meant I had no brain, no ability to reason, no right to think for myself. I swore I would never treat my kids that way, and I haven't.

 

If my kids question something I've done or said, I explain my reasons and I listen to their opinions/thoughts/concerns. If they continue to argue, I will say "I've already explained my reasons, and I understand your position, but my decision stands. I don't want to discuss it any further now." Believe it or not, this hasn't resulted in mouthy, disrespectful kids ~ my kids are extremely polite and well mannered, and I get compliments on their manners all the time. They are very respectful to others, because they are treated with respect themselves.

 

Obviously not a popular opinion here, but that's my $.02....

Jackie

[dhudson]

In our home my children can question me BUT they must ask me if they can. "May I appeal Mom?" or "Can I ask a question, Mom?" are acceptable. The majority of the time I am fully willing to dialogue about a decision and often they have a good reason to question. I want them to have that freedom, however, there are times that I say "no" and I mean drop it now.

 

However, if we are guests then their rules apply without question. At my house, my rules apply. Period, end of discussion. I think that's the issue in a nutshell.

[Karenciavo]

Anyhow, back to my main question. Am I doing my son a disservice by allowing him to 'make his case' when I ask him to do something he finds unacceptable? Or should I demand instant obedience with no questions asked? Am I creating a child who loves to argue?? When he makes his case with me, he does it respectfully, and I listen to his arguments and encourage him to reason it out. I want him to think things through and not just follow someones thinking blindly, KWIM? He never wins his case with me, but I will let him reason with me and sometimes I will concede to certain points he has made. I find this is healthy. :confused: Am I completely off-base?

 

When my boys were young, I always required obedience with no questions asked, But, at 12 and up?

 

I wouldn't expect other people to do what you do with your son. If I have a guest at my house and say no toys on the trampoline I'd expect it to be obeyed, if not the trampoline would be off limits. If my sons went to someone's house and the rule was no running in the back yard I'd want them to obey no questions asked. My sons are allowed to question our rules, but not when they are a guest in someone's home.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jackie, I don't think ANYONE thinks it's a bad opinion.

 

I think degree is the whole issue here.

 

I want my kids to think and even question. I have raised them in a way to make that safe. But I do have limits. There are appropriate times and places as well as ways to do so.

 

The mother in the OP actually was very appropriate to start with. She just repeated the rule and left it at that. She probably felt her kid had fielded enough questions about it. I agree. But the mother wasn't upset that the kid asked a couple questions though it seems the other kid was bothered by it.

 

The mother didn't get upset until the 14yo chimed in also and honestly, I don't think that was an honest question for a number of reasons. I think it was a 14yo being a buggerschnott as sometimes happens. I would have disciplined (though without yelling or punishment as we don't use those things) the 14yo. The discipline MIGHT have been (if I was in an extra gracious mood) simply throwing a few reasoning questions at him as if it were an honest question. But he's 14, not 4; he could handle the "give me a break" answer too.

[Guest Katia]

:iagree:

If my child said "That's a stupid rule!" I would find that disrespectful, but asking WHY a certain rule exists ~ I totally don't understand why that would be considered disrespectful. :confused:

 

In fact, I think that refusing to answer a child's question about why a certain rule exists is disrespectful to the CHILD. I have never expected blind obedience from my kids; frankly I don't think any human being owes blind obedience to any other person, parent or not. I think relationships should be based on mutual respect, not obedience. I grew up with a mother whose answer to every question I ever asked about why I couldn't (or must) do something was "Because I'm your mother and I said so!" It drove me nuts, I found it really rude and disrespectful to me, as if being a child meant I had no brain, no ability to reason, no right to think for myself. I swore I would never treat my kids that way, and I haven't.

 

If my kids question something I've done or said, I explain my reasons and I listen to their opinions/thoughts/concerns. If they continue to argue, I will say "I've already explained my reasons, and I understand your position, but my decision stands. I don't want to discuss it any further now." Believe it or not, this hasn't resulted in mouthy, disrespectful kids ~ my kids are extremely polite and well mannered, and I get compliments on their manners all the time. They are very respectful to others, because they are treated with respect themselves.

 

Obviously not a popular opinion here, but that's my $.02....

Jackie

 

:iagree::iagree: 100%.

 

You ds didn't sound snarky, rude, or disrespectful to me. At.All. Of course he would wonder why the rules had suddenly changed and want to know why. AND he is entitled to know why; different house or not. Just because he is 12yo or 14yo doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain, can't think, or isn't entitled to the courtesy of a very simple explanation.

 

The moms in this thread that have said they wouldn't have explained to this child why the rules had suddenly changed...wow. THAT is rude and disrespectful in my book. I would never want my dc to play at your houses.

 

When kids at my house ask "why", I give them a simple explanation. Yes, some go on and on and SOMEtimes....they are right! Yes, little pre-teens can be right and you can be wrong. If after listening to the child I think I am wrong, I will change my rule; if not, I tell them they are welcome to do 'whatever' at their own homes, but they can not do it at my house. All is good.

 

Most of the time, these kids just need to know that there are adults that really listen and take what they think seriously. Why is that so hard for so many adults to do?

 

I tell my kids that there is no authority too important to not question. I want them to think, ask and evaluate. No blind obedience here. It's too bad that so many adults see children's questions as rude and disrespectful; when all they are doing is trying to understand.

 

OP: your ds sound delightful. You are NOT wrong to not require instant obedience and totally right to allow him to ask questions. However.....if it were my ds, I would also not allow him to play at this relative's house unless I was present. Ever.

[Melissa in CA]

Obviously you got your feelings hurt because people saw the situation you described (btw, without YOU being there) differently than you did; but throwing unreasonable jabs at others probably won't make you feel better and it certainly doesn't make your case.

 

If you are fine with all of the boys' behavior, then so be it.

 

:001_huh::confused: My feelings are not hurt, nor am I throwing unreasonable jabs at anyone?

 

I already know that my son was in the wrong. This, again (does nobody actually read previous posts), has been addressed by his dad and I at length. I don't expect the child to be perfect and do the right thing all the time. He's a kid, and he's learning. Had he been at anyone elses house besides his cousins, he would never have questioned a house rule. But since he has been there often, and this rule was never once in place beforehand, he was confused and asked why. I see nothing wrong with that in and of itself. I think it's a natural response to "we can't play with toys on the trampoline anymore." "You can't, how come?" Now, had that been the extent of it I would have found zero fault in my ds. But, his cousins responses were absurd to him, so he questioned them. That was understandable knowing this particular cousin, but completely out of line. He should have left well enough alone and respected said rule. Period. End of discussion.

 

I think many of you have jumped on a whole different tract than my reason for starting this thread. I already know my ds was wrong, you don't all have to keep harpin' on that! :lol: He does not question everything someone tells him. He's not that obnoxious. It cracks me up how someone can take the fact that my son asked a question, found the answers given him illogical considering past experience at said home, and then turn him into a forever questioning hell-on-wells who has zero respect for the authority of others. :blink: Goodness. If he was as bad as y'all make him sound I wouldn't let him out of my sight, let alone go to anyones house! :D

 

Anyhow, for those that actually want to address my question...Here it is again:

 

Am I doing my son a disservice by allowing him to 'make his case' when I ask him to do something he finds unacceptable? Or should I demand instant obedience with no questions asked? Am I creating a child who loves to argue?? When he makes his case with me, he does it respectfully, and I listen to his arguments and encourage him to reason it out. I want him to think things through and not just follow someones thinking blindly, KWIM? He never wins his case with me, but I will let him reason with me and sometimes I will concede to certain points he has made. I find this is healthy. Am I completely off-base?

 

My question was not was my son wrong in how he acted while at his cousins. I already know the answer to that, and if I didn't, I sure do now! LOL My question was, should I, too, be making my son obey without question? Is it wrong for me to allow him a voice in the rules we place over his life (My sister & brother-in-law would say a resounding "yes!"). Would it be better if I didn't allow him to question, but just to obey, or will that cause exasperation in a child. I know it would me. Now, I can see that NOT allowing questions would make for more peaceful parenting, but I can't help but think that might not be healthy if taken to the extreme either.

 

So, I was a bit confused and thought I would come to the Hive. I apparently did not ask what I wanted to know clearly enough or we wouldn't have gone down the your ds is disrespective, snarky, obnoxious road. But, that is the message board beasty. We are all an opinionated lot. ;):D