We Are All Hindus Now?

[Lovedtodeath]

It is not like no one noticed, however. (I don't think pointing it out really made a difference in that regard.) ;) It is not a big deal. Most of us have some words that we misspell I am sure. I probably have one in this post!

[Dirtroad]

I apologise if you took offence. I just treated you as I would wish to be treated, and that is if I was making a repeated spelling error, that someone would point it out to me. So if you see them in my posts, feel free.

 

Great! Constructive criticism & notification of some error that should hit me right away is wonderful & a common (repetitive) bad spelling or pronunciation can be embarrassing..... PM is the way to gently & considerately notify someone of an error.

 

I will not edit your post.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Dirtroad]

When I was a child I was much more hurt by comments about my clothes or appreance than about my religion or parents' politics. Commenst about a child's appearance can stay with them forever.

 

You are not kidding! I sure agree with this!

 

I rarely attended church as a child. Did not even own a dress... which was mandatory for church in those days. I never remember a single comment about church or religion in school... nor would I care. It was irrelevant to me & was not a HUGE issue in my family. We just didn't go.

 

But I can tell you (I bet) every single time that one specific girl told me my clothes were ugly' date=' out of style, or look liked her grandmas! I can even remember her asking me if I got my clothes at the dump. Yep, that was pure meanness & she didn't need her MOM to teach her that. She was just spoiled & arrogant. I know her Mom & she is a very humble sweet woman (even today) and would have crawled under the table in shame.

 

I can also remember being the last kid picked for PE class games b/c I was chunky, clumsy & not athletic. Oh, the shame of being so resented for being one of the candidates for the "oh so important" 5th period Kick Ball game!

 

Meanness is in us. It doesnt' even have to be taught. We are pretty good at it on our own. But to a child, unless it is a family sensitivity... religion is the least of their worries.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Rosie_0801]

I do think Christianity brought TREMENDOUS civility to nations. You may not be a Christian and may absolutely LOATHE them (not you directly, just you in general context). However, if you live in the USA, CANADA, SWEDEN, GERMANY, ENGLAND, etc... you benefit greatly from the rules of law & rights/wrongs established by influences of Christians. (NOT perfect nations... but the best nations in the world to live in have been blessed by the teachings of Christ... even when his followers are flawed & fail).

 

I don't think that's much of an argument. Christianity has travelled the world, and there are places Christianity has touched that are lousy places to live. You oughtn't argue that bad acts are committed by people who happen to identify as Christian, then argue that good acts are done by Christians. Surely those good acts have also been done by people who happen to identify as Christians. Of course, Christianity is not the only religion to arrive on a country's doorstep bringing positives in it's suitcase. The arrival of Islam in India offered the untouchables a better spiritual position.

 

Rosie

[Joanne]

Um.

 

I just want to say it's very possible to be Christian, believing, saved and filled with the spirit and not embrace what individuals might determine to be dogma or rhetoric instead of Truth.

 

It's possible, for example, to believe Jesus IS/WAS God, he was fully human, fully divine, was crucified, dead and buried and rose from the dead. It's possible to believe that but have an open, broad, inclusionary perspective on that Jesus meant functionally when he said no one comes but through him.

 

I've spent 18 years in AA watching GOD work miracles in (willing) lives. Some of those people called Him Jesus. Some did not.

 

I

think it reflects, in many cases, an ignorance among many Americans of what the Bible actually teaches, more than anything. There are so many Bible verses that refute this viewpoint, that it's difficult to know where to start in addressing it. I guess this one is as clear as any: Jesus Himself said "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

In fact, I would venture to say that the Bible makes no sense at all, if all roads lead to heaven and Christianity is no different than any other religion. This view is a rejection of the New Testament, imo, not an interpretation. I think it would have been pretty silly of Jesus to die and suffer on the cross if it didn't matter whether He did or not.

 

This is a common sentiment. The last paragraph, especially, is dramatic and compelling. But it's Christian *culture*, commonly accepted rhetoric, instead of an accurate representation of individual spirituality.

 

I believe the Bible is Truth but not literal. Do I believe all paths are equal? No. Do I believe that all spirital leaders are equal? No. Do I believe God has been on earth under any other name or person? No. Do I believe departing from current Christian culture = rejecting Christ, going to hell, being a less than Christian? No.

 

My God and my understanding of God transcends our scripts, our ideas, our minds, our limits, our words, our boundaries. I believe He woos us to Him in the way he's made us to most likely say "YES, Lord, I need you today and in the afterlife."

 

Who the heck am I to decide what that looks like? I've sponsored dozens of people in AA over the years. (Women only) I used to sponsor them all the same way, with the same rules, with the same "talks". As I matured and grew in life experience in recovery, I realized that was not how God wanted me to sponsor people. IT doesn't serve them or Him. It ignores the *knowing* He has of each person, their current needs, His plans for them.

 

I see our relationship with God in the same way. He doesn't expect, want or encourage cookie cutter worship or reverence. He wants us to want him in our own authentic selves. And he doesn't want that out of his own need but love for us; when we follow him, our lives fall into his plans for us and automatically, our lives current and future are transformed.

[Rosie_0801]

I see our relationship with God in the same way. He doesn't expect, want or encourage cookie cutter worship or reverence. He wants us to want him in our own authentic selves. And he doesn't want that out of his own need but love for us; when we follow him, our lives fall into his plans for us and automatically, our lives current and future are transformed.

 

That sounds nice :)

 

Rosie

[Dirtroad]

I don't think that's much of an argument. Christianity has travelled the world, and there are places Christianity has touched that are lousy places to live. You oughtn't argue that bad acts are committed by people who happen to identify as Christian, then argue that good acts are done by Christians. Surely those good acts have also been done by people who happen to identify as Christians. Of course, Christianity is not the only religion to arrive on a country's doorstep bringing positives in it's suitcase. The arrival of Islam in India offered the untouchables a better spiritual position.

 

Rosie

 

The whole world has been "touched" by Christians. It doens't meant that they adopted anything from it or even maintained any influence from it. I am also admitting Christians (even those who are sincere & honest in their faith) are flawed and make errors in daily life.

 

Ugh! However attrocities are not flaws & errors... in no way. Conquistadors were NOT sharing the love of Christ. The East India Trading company was not sharing the love of Christ. The superstitious Mob at Salem were sharing or acting upon the teachings of Christ!!!!! NOT AT ALL. Walking into a worship service, lighting a candle, or singing a hymn does NOT make you a Christian & your actions should not be placed at the doorstep of the church as a "see, we told you Christians were horrible & hypocritical."

 

I am saying that when Christians share the teachings of Christ... they bring great blessings, hopes & growth to that area & people. It is up to the people of that country to then continue to expand and share those practices and teaching with others. India, Haiti, Uganda are nations tremendously blessed by the teachings of Christianity (and I believe Christians do more for the untouchables than the Muslims & not just for allies in the seek for power). Are these places that I want to live? No.

 

Haiti is in the worst condition physically.... the Christian missionaries keep working in love.... but only 8-10 years ago the President of that Country attempted to rededicate the nation to Voodoo with witch doctors from all over teh world coming and a huge pig sacrifice to be held in PAP. So, yes, Christians are there but the nation is not one of the worlds best examples of greatness.... AND the nation hasnt' accepted the teachings of Christ and do not practice it on a large scale. But the most peaceful places that I visited in Haiti were those of the Christian villages.... even the poorest attended the village school, get fed each day, and have hope. No laws or legalisms of religion... no high priest threatening physical mutilation or harm.. just helping each other in love!

 

There is a HUGE difference between sharing the life changing lessons of Christ in love & compassion.... than the atrocities that everyone keeps putting on the footsteps of Christ church.

 

And, it is amazing how so many are so quick to embrace & forgive any religion except Christianity... even when so much more can be placed at the feet of those much beloved & admired religions... up to this very second. It is heartbreaking & makes these conversations seem useless.

[KingM]

Conquistadors were NOT sharing the love of Christ.

 

In fact, it was the Catholic priests who fought for the rights of the native people in Mexico and Bishop Bartolome de las Casas, the first priest ever consecrated in the New World, who proclaimed that Indians had souls in 1520. He fought a lifelong battle against the Conquistadors and their mistreatment and enslavement of the Indians, and did so in the name of Christ.

 

However, there have also been many atrocities committed, not just by Christians, but in the name of Jesus Christ as well. At the same time as de las Casas, the Spanish Inquisition was seeking out, torturing, and killing Jews and Muslims who had feigned conversion in order to avoid being expelled from Spain. Also in the name of Christ.

[hornblower]

Dirtroad - the issue as I see it is that you are saying a lot of good things came about because of Christianity. I think a good argument can be made that those things came about in spite of Christianity.

 

Christianity does not have a monopoly on good laws, charity, compassion & civilized behaviour.

 

And for the record, I'm not ready to embrace and forgive any religion. I'm quite happy to poke at the flaws in all of them. I'm an atheist. I'm an equal opportunity religion basher. :001_smile:

 

I think you're taking this too personally. You are not responsible for the actions of the church as an institution or the misrepresentations of the faith by individuals. I don't disagree that there are some wonderful, wonderful aspects of Christianity and that there are (& have been) some truly great Christian people who have contributed greatly to our world. I think it must be very hurtful to have bad things said about something in which you find great beauty. But for many of us, we see a lot terrible things done in the name of God, by many many religions - Christianity included.

[Michelle in MO]

Dirtroad - the issue as I see it is that you are saying a lot of good things came about because of Christianity. I think a good argument can be made that those things came about in spite of Christianity.

 

terrible things have been done in the name of Christ, but I wouldn't say that those are representative of true Christianity. Since the Founder condemned those actions, I don't believe they are representative of His heart towards people.

 

For me, the good that has come into the world because of Christianity far outweighs any evils that have been attributed to that name.

 

For an interesting perspective, I recommend this article, entitled "As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God", by Matthew Parris.

 

I apologize for not being able to engage in this interesting discussion any more today; I have a lot of homework to get done, but this is a very worthwhile article.

[HRAAB]

Dirtroad - the issue as I see it is that you are saying a lot of good things came about because of Christianity. I think a good argument can be made that those things came about in spite of Christianity.

 

 

I would change this to: the good that came about, not in spite of Christianity, but in spite of human nature.

 

The biggest beef I've got with God is He gave us this terrific message, and then left it up to humans (greedy, egotistical, etc.) to spread it around the world. Geez!

 

That was partly in jest.

 

Janet

[Night Elf]

When I was a child I was much more hurt by comments about my clothes or appreance than about my religion or parents' politics. Commenst about a child's appearance can stay with them forever.

 

And so far, my dd11 has no interest whatsoever in Christianity because of her experience. She just cannot fathom that another person could be so absolutely hurtful as to project such a cruel existence beyond death. I find her thoughts to be quite observant actually. And my dd17 currently has a very religious friend who is contantly trying to convert her because of the fear of hell. She even went so far as to plan a meeting with her pastor when my dd didn't feel comfortable with the idea. I put a stop to that immediately. A person simply should not and can not be forced into a particular religious belief.

 

I also believe that a child wouldn't tell another child they were going to hell just to be mean. They are mimicking what they hear and learn from the trusted adults in their lives, just the same as racism is passed down from adult to child. Racism is very much alive in our country, and the kids who are growing into adults were not around at the height of the civil rights movement, yet they feel as strongly as their parents. And, Christianity and other religions are passed from adults to children without the child coming to the faith on their own. I don't know children who have read the entire Bible, yet non-Christians are often told to read the Bible to understand why Christianity is the one way to God and heaven. Children are given only so much information, usually the simple stories such as Adam & Eve, the flood, and the fear of scary hell. Of course they believe it. It's strong and powerful stuff!

[Lovedtodeath]

Beth, not all Christians believe in a fiery hell that torments after death or put an emphasis on being/not being saved. But I am sure you know that from the rest of the thread and other of my posts. :grouphug:

[Peek a Boo]

And so far, my dd11 has no interest whatsoever in Christianity because of her experience. She just cannot fathom that another person could be so absolutely hurtful as to project such a cruel existence beyond death. I find her thoughts to be quite observant actually.

 

This is why i consider it very important to explain to children that we do NOT judge an entire belief because of a few people's actions. My dc would miss out on many possibly fulfilling opportunities if I let their childish experiences guide them unexplained into adulthood. They would also turn into bitter, intolerant people.

I also believe that a child wouldn't tell another child they were going to hell just to be mean. They are mimicking what they hear and learn from the trusted adults in their lives, just the same as racism is passed down from adult to child. Racism is very much alive in our country, and the kids who are growing into adults were not around at the height of the civil rights movement, yet they feel as strongly as their parents.

 

Children are INFAMOUS for hearing bits and pieces of information and passing on their own interpretation. Their mind processes discussions quite differently from adults. Just because they come to a simplistic explanation does not mean that they are passing down racism and bigotry.

And, Christianity and other religions are passed from adults to children without the child coming to the faith on their own. I don't know children who have read the entire Bible, yet non-Christians are often told to read the Bible to understand why Christianity is the one way to God and heaven. Children are given only so much information, usually the simple stories such as Adam & Eve, the flood, and the fear of scary hell. Of course they believe it. It's strong and powerful stuff!

 

newsflash: Christianity can't be "passed down" UNLESS the faith is embraced. It can only be taught and modeled. As with ANY OTHER TOPIC [religious or secular] children are given as much info as their parents will teach. Some parents teach simple versions of sex ed at young ages, others teach the whole kit n kaboodle.

yes, most children have not read the entire Bible. But plenty of Christian children have read and been taught quite a bit of it. My 12yos is constantly amazed when he hears people spout off something about Christianity that simply isn't true --"why don't they just look it up instead of passing on false info?"

 

And yeah. It would seem a tad obvious that if someone is interested --even academically-- in learning what Christianity is about, the Bible would be a go-to source for that.

[Peek a Boo]

I would change this to: the good that came about, not in spite of Christianity, but in spite of human nature.

 

yeah. That's pointed out in The Book too. ;)

 

The biggest beef I've got with God is He gave us this terrific message, and then left it up to humans (greedy, egotistical, etc.) to spread it around the world. Geez!

 

That was partly in jest.

 

:iagree: :D

[Peek a Boo]

 

In fact, I would venture to say that the Bible makes no sense at all, if all roads lead to heaven and Christianity is no different than any other religion. This view is a rejection of the New Testament, imo, not an interpretation. I think it would have been pretty silly of Jesus to die and suffer on the cross if it didn't matter whether He did or not.

This is a common sentiment. The last paragraph, especially, is dramatic and compelling. But it's Christian *culture*, commonly accepted rhetoric, instead of an accurate representation of individual spirituality.

 

 

Um.

 

It's "commonly accepted rhetoric" because it's all throughout the Bible.

 

and yeah, Christian culture is heavily dependent on the Bible [which is where we learn a lot about Christ --you know, that guy in the Gospels???].

 

If you want spirituality, you don't need the Bible. Christianity is not about individual spirituality --it is about modeling Christ, which includes Knowing and Trusting and Believing what God has said in His Word, as Christ did.

[Jugglin'5]

A person simply should not and can not be forced into a particular religious belief.

 

:confused: Who said that they should? And do you really think that you are influencing your children any less against Christianity than I am for? Parents teach - it's what they do. Even when it is not intentional.

 

I also believe that a child wouldn't tell another child they were going to hell just to be mean. They are mimicking what they hear and learn from the trusted adults in their lives, just the same as racism is passed down from adult to child.

 

So you've never had a child tell a non-family member something that absolutely mortified you, and made you wonder where they got that from? Like telling the neighbors, "Oh, mom just likes to sit around in the bathtub and drink wine all day?" :lol:

 

 

Racism is very much alive in our country, and the kids who are growing into adults were not around at the height of the civil rights movement, yet they feel as strongly as their parents. And, Christianity and other religions are passed from adults to children without the child coming to the faith on their own. I don't know children who have read the entire Bible, yet non-Christians are often told to read the Bible to understand why Christianity is the one way to God and heaven.

 

I don't see how this is relevant. I read the the whole Bible on my own volition as a young child, and my parents were not churchgoers. Though I didn't really become sure of my faith until I was an adult.

 

Children are given only so much information, usually the simple stories such as Adam & Eve, the flood, and the fear of scary hell. Of course they believe it. It's strong and powerful stuff!

 

Yes, it is.

[Night Elf]

Children are INFAMOUS for hearing bits and pieces of information and passing on their own interpretation. Their mind processes discussions quite differently from adults. Just because they come to a simplistic explanation does not mean that they are passing down racism and bigotry.

 

Very true. I was speaking from the personal experience of the two girls I have been able to talk to about their ideas about hell. Both girls specifically told me that they believed in hell because their parents and sunday school teachers warned them that would happen to them if they didn't give themselves over to God. This is why I'm not in total favor of my dd17's friend who is trying to convert my dd. The entire basis for her concern for my dd is that if dd17 isn't saved, she will go to hell and the friend doesn't want to see that happen. She told me that very clearly when I asked why she felt such a burning (bad pun) need to see my dd saved. Those are not examples of kids extrapolating bits of information and reaching their own conclusions.

 

Granted, they could possibly be the only two girls in the entire world who have been taught to believe that. Truthfully, the mother of my dd17's friend is kind of a crazy nut. She wouldn't let my dd into her home for a while because she found out that my dd was hanging around a girl who had a reputation of having sex with her boyfriend. She called my daughter a demon from hell and our home as a demon pit. Lovely. The funny thing is that she has no idea about her own dd's personal experiences and the people she hangs out with. I discourage my dd from spending time in that house. I honestly worry for her safety.

 

newsflash: Christianity can't be "passed down" UNLESS the faith is embraced. It can only be taught and modeled.

 

What about the families we know, and hear on boards like this one, that are 100% dominant in making their children adhere to the family faith or attend church? They insist the child believe because there is no other truth. I don't see that as teaching or modeling. In other words, how can a child truly embrace the faith if the only reason they are living it is because their parents are? And what about the Christians who admit they haven't read the entire Bible but believe because they were brought up to believe and they would never dare to question the belief?

 

And maybe the term 'passed down' isn't being used correctly in my wording. I am thinking passed down is equal to making the kids believe in the same ideas as the parents without allowing the child to explore the concept on their own.

[Lovedtodeath]

Beth is right in that there are plenty of people who simply adhere to the same belief system of their parents without looking into it themselves.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that we have the only true religion, but we highly encourage everyone including our children to explore this for themselves and not to blindly listen to religious leaders.

[Night Elf]

Beth, not all Christians believe in a fiery hell that torments after death or put an emphasis on being/not being saved. But I am sure you know that from the rest of the thread and other of my posts. :grouphug:

 

Yes, and I really wish my kids would meet some of those kids. I'd love for my children to find and believe in faith. I'm totally outnumbered in my home and the only outside people that I have tried to connect with on a spiritual basis have rejected me. So even though I don't consider myself a Christian anymore, I am very firm in not allowing my children to make ugly remarks about any religion. I teach them tolerance and tell them that one day they may find a need and desire to have faith and they should keep an open mind. I do not share with them my own unpleasant experiences. I want their relationships with God to begin untainted, if at all possible.

 

Oh, let me edit to add that I would 100% happy to have anyone know me and my family personally and model a loving Christian life to me. It's just not what I've experienced. I'm either left out because I'm not the kind of Chrisitian they associate with, because my DH isn't Christian and refuses to go to church, or that I have different rules in my family than their children such as being able to read Harry Potter, watch tv and play video games. I just don't fit in anywhere. I keep hearing on this board how there are people out there like that, but darn if I ever meet any in real life!

Edited August 19, 2009 by Night Elf

[Night Elf]

Jugglin'5 - it's people like you that make me want to run screaming from the Christian faith.

 

Please read my previous post. I do not influence my children against Christianity. You yourself admitted you found religion when your parents weren't religious. They obviously didn't influence you away from Christianity.

 

No, I've never had a child tell someone else something that mortified me. The only thing I can think of was the day my youngest dd, who was like 3 at the time, announced in the checkout line that the man on the cover of the magazine had a large bump in his pants. And though I was embarrassed, I thought it was mighty funny. It certainly was the truth.

 

I've never met a child who has read the whole Bible. You are a superstar.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I've never met a child who has read the whole Bible. You are a superstar.

I have known plenty. It partly depends on what age you are assigning to the word "child".

[Jugglin'5]

Jugglin'5 - it's people like you that make me want to run screaming from the Christian faith.

 

Please read my previous post. I do not influence my children against Christianity. You yourself admitted you found religion when your parents weren't religious. They obviously didn't influence you away from Christianity.

 

No, I've never had a child tell someone else something that mortified me. The only thing I can think of was the day my youngest dd, who was like 3 at the time, announced in the checkout line that the man on the cover of the magazine had a large bump in his pants. And though I was embarrassed, I thought it was mighty funny. It certainly was the truth.

 

I've never met a child who has read the whole Bible. You are a superstar.

 

 

 

As far as reading the whole Bible goes, I will admit that I was an odd child - no need to get snarky about it. My own children will have read the whole thing by the time they get out of junior high, though it is assigned reading, not purely voluntarily. What's the big deal?

 

My parents didn't go to church - they were Easter/Christmas Christians - they did send me to church with Grandma sometimes, but my mom wouldn't let me get baptized because I had already been christened. Then I went through an agnostic, almost atheist period that lasted through college. Really my parents were just very confused. My brother and I both became Christians, and oddly enough my parents are regular attendees now, though at a more liberal congregation.

 

I am sorry that I make you want to run screaming from the Christian faith, but it is comments like this and previous ones that make me very doubtful whether you always keep your opinion of most Christians under wraps for your children. Children are way more perceptive than adults sometimes.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Jugglin'5

[Hillary in KS]

I've never met a child who has read the whole Bible. You are a superstar.

 

My son has read the whole Bible - twice. he started reading it through when he was 9 or 10. he's nearly 14 now.

 

My 8 year old decided he wanted to read the Bible, so he reads for a few minutes a day. He's still in early Genesis.

 

Just because *you* don't know any children who read the Bible doesn't mean they're not out there. :001_smile:

[Hsmomto4]

There are lots of children that have read the whole Bible. It isn't that rare.

[Night Elf]

I have known plenty. It partly depends on what age you are assigning to the word "child".

 

I'm going by the definition that a child is a person between the age of birth and puberty. I'm absolutely certain there have been middle and high schoolers who have read the Bible.

 

Of course, here is another reason I feel so ignorant. I can't understand much of what the Bible says. I've poured over passages and talked with church leaders about them and they still elude me. I know there are people who dedicate their lives to reading and understanding the Bible. I just find it quite far-fetched that a child/teen can read and understand the entire Bible. It sort of puts the scholars to shame.

[Greta]

Jugglin'5 - it's people like you that make me want to run screaming from the Christian faith.

 

Ouch.

[Night Elf]

I am sorry that I make you want to run screaming from the Christian faith' date=' but it is comments like this and previous ones that make me very doubtful whether you always keep your opinion of most Christians under wraps for your children. Children are way more perceptive than adults sometimes.[/quote']

 

Very true, and this goes for Christian parents raising their children and why kids like the one my dd met in school had every student in her class dislike her because my dd was going to hell for not believing in God.

 

Ack! What a horrid sentence!

 

Um.. what you wrote is true. I also believe this goes for Christian parents making comments and displaying certain attitudes to their children as well. Perhaps that would explain why the little girl in my dd's class had everyone disliking my dd for not believing in God. She had lots of kids come up to her over the course of the week asking why she didn't believe in God and why she wouldn't believe in order to not go to hell.

[5kidsforME]

Jugglin'5 - it's people like you that make me want to run screaming from the Christian faith.

 

.

 

Ouch.

 

Yeah, unnecessary and dare I say *hurtful*.

[Jugglin'5]

Very true, and this goes for Christian parents raising their children and why kids like the one my dd met in school had every student in her class dislike her because my dd was going to hell for not believing in God.

 

Ack! What a horrid sentence!

 

Um.. what you wrote is true. I also believe this goes for Christian parents making comments and displaying certain attitudes to their children as well. Perhaps that would explain why the little girl in my dd's class had everyone disliking my dd for not believing in God. She had lots of kids come up to her over the course of the week asking why she didn't believe in God and why she wouldn't believe in order to not go to hell.

 

 

Undoubtedly. I gotta say, though, that still sounds like one mean little girl. Maybe her parents are mean, too. My children would, I hope, never treat a non-Christian child like some kind of social leper. They've been taught better. But, you know, I still have to remind the younger ones at the grocery store not to stare at the person in the wheelchair. Some things they just do because they are thoughtless kids, and not because they've been taught that. The girl in your daughter's class sounds like she's got a budding case of mean girl syndrome growing.

[Jugglin'5]

Yeah, unnecessary and dare I say *hurtful*.

 

 

Hey, it's alright. I'm a big girl. I can take it. :D

[Rosie_0801]

And, it is amazing how so many are so quick to embrace & forgive any religion except Christianity... even when so much more can be placed at the feet of those much beloved & admired religions... up to this very second. It is heartbreaking & makes these conversations seem useless.

 

You realise you invite that type of response in being so quick to deny, or dismiss as less, the positives of any religion except Christianity. I suspect it is not your religion that invites argument. I think people here might well be trying to acertain whether you can agree that other religions have contributed positive things to the world without tacking on 'but Christianity is waaaaaayyyy better so that stuff the other guys have done doesn't really count.' I understand that you think Christianity is the superior path to follow, because you wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Are you able to agree that other religions have positive elements? You understand that it is not denying your faith in any way to say "Yeah, those other guys have some good points." Some of us here would find it easier to have respect for your views if the answer to my above question is yes. Of course if the answer is no, you're still entitled to your opinion. :001_smile:

 

The entire basis for her concern for my dd is that if dd17 isn't saved, she will go to hell and the friend doesn't want to see that happen.

Sounds like a sensible reason for friend to be trying to convert your daughter, in my opinion. Very immature that this is her entire argument, but she's only 17. Few people have their views on life, the universe and everything sorted out by 17. Of course, if someone was trying to convert my kids, I would expect them to be presenting a better argument. A better argument than I, as a person outside their religion, could manage!

 

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm going by the definition that a child is a person between the age of birth and puberty. I'm absolutely certain there have been middle and high schoolers who have read the Bible.

 

Of course, here is another reason I feel so ignorant. I can't understand much of what the Bible says. I've poured over passages and talked with church leaders about them and they still elude me. I know there are people who dedicate their lives to reading and understanding the Bible. I just find it quite far-fetched that a child/teen can read and understand the entire Bible. It sort of puts the scholars to shame.

Yes. Good point. We have two programs of study for those working toward babtism. One is to read the Bible in its entirety in a year. The other is to read a selection once a week, study it in depth and discuss your findings. This takes seven years. Children usually participate in the 7 year study starting at an age that they can read well. It never ends, when you are done, it starts over again. Both methods are beneficial in different ways.

 

She had lots of kids come up to her over the course of the week asking why she didn't believe in God and why she wouldn't believe in order to not go to hell.

Well, if they think believing in God keeps one out of hell then where do they think the Devil is? He believed not only in God but in Jesus, and his demons followed Jesus around calling him the Savior.

[Lovedtodeath]

Rosie, you are amazing. Really.

[Peela]

I think one of the issue we all have- Christians and non Christians alike- is that none of us are so extremely and unbiasedly educated as to really know the truth on a world wide basis over the last 2000 years, as to whether Christianity has done more good than harm in terms of it's invading other cultures, as to whether other cultures have been better or worse for it (on all levels), as to how it's conversions or influence compares to other religions in the good/suffering they have caused in the name of its religion or vaguely related to it.

 

I dont know, and I dont believe any Christian or anyone can know without years and years of unbiased research and even then, I doubt it.

I have heard of terrible things that have happened because of missionaries entering places. Awful. But I can't tell you the details because I dont remember. I can tell you that the stories I have heard have reinforced my concept that Christianity has been far from a force of good for many people. However, that concept has formed in my mind for so many reasons, and some of them are personal (going to a Christian school where I found the hypocrisy unbearable). I am not and cannot be unbiased, but really, my opinion is fairly worthless. But what I am saying is, so is any Christian's opinion in terms of the objective truth, because its not possible to know all the factors involved, or all the times and places where events have happened. Its just too much information, and much of it subjective.

 

Someone already biased towards Christianity will probably be exposed, due to the culture they live in, to many "good things" Christians have done,and they will totally believe them and perhaps won't be exposed to or be as ready to believe all the bad things.

 

It does come down to whether you take it all personally all not, and I can understand people defending their faith, but facts are facts nevertheless, and telling a few facts on one side of the specrtum actually doesnt lessen any facts on the other, and none of us can have the huge vision and perspective, and lack of prejudice, to know the whole spectrum.

 

I think there is obviously a case for both sides, but ultimitely its only a case of finding facts to support your previously held belief. A debating exercise at best.

 

I dont honestly believe we can know. And the best we can do is be open minded and open hearted, and not take it all so personally.

[sleepymommy]

You realise you invite that type of response in being so quick to deny, or dismiss as less, the positives of any religion except Christianity. I suspect it is not your religion that invites argument. I think people here might well be trying to acertain whether you can agree that other religions have contributed positive things to the world without tacking on 'but Christianity is waaaaaayyyy better so that stuff the other guys have done doesn't really count.' I understand that you think Christianity is the superior path to follow, because you wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Are you able to agree that other religions have positive elements? You understand that it is not denying your faith in any way to say "Yeah, those other guys have some good points." Some of us here would find it easier to have respect for your views if the answer to my above question is yes. Of course if the answer is no, you're still entitled to your opinion. :001_smile:

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

Thank you, I often just don't know how to express my feelings, can't even come up with words to express how I feel internally and you are always so on point and graceful with your words.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think there is obviously a case for both sides, but ultimitely its only a case of finding facts to support your previously held belief. A debating exercise at best.

I don't know everything, but I have certainly been exposed to the bad things that have resulted from Christianity and the good things that have resulted from other religions. Jehovah's Witnesses have so many publications available to them. If we read them we have exposure to so many topics, including other religions, whether they be Christian or not.

 

I feel like I am responding way too much to these things, but I just feel like Jehovah's Witnesses are very different from beliefs about Christians as a whole and when I feel grouped in with all of Christianity and I really feel a need to set that right. There are many Christians who don't fit into the neat little box that people have in their minds of what Christians are or do.

[Rosie_0801]

:iagree:

Thank you, I often just don't know how to express my feelings, can't even come up with words to express how I feel internally and you are always so on point and graceful with your words.

 

Thankyou. You wouldn't say that if you knew me in real life. I love having access to a backspace key. If only speech had such convenient editing functions :D

 

Cheers,

Rosie

[Night Elf]

Yeah, unnecessary and dare I say *hurtful*.

 

Really? Since a Christian is supposed to be a good witness, wouldn't you think a Christian would want to know when they are coming across heavy handed? What if I wasn't the only one that heavy-handed approach turned away instead of drawing near? If I'm wrong, then I'm very sorry. It's just that continued harsh treatment that makes me go farther and farther away from something I want so bad. I suppose I should take the advice of one well-meaning woman who told me that perhaps God intends for me to be alone and miserable to bring me closer to Him. After a few years, literally, of accepting that truth and praying, I felt no closer. Instead, I felt totally abandoned. I just really don't understand why I can't meet someone who is willing to be kind to me, answer my questions or at least sympathize with my questions, and hold my hand along my journey. It's simply much too difficult to do alone. Maybe not for everyone, but certainly for me. I hate being a lost cause but I believe it's how I'm viewed and therefore I'm unworthy of the Christian family's attentions.

[Night Elf]

Undoubtedly. I gotta say' date=' though, that still sounds like one mean little girl. [/quote']

 

Yes, and it just makes me quite frustrated. I continue to ask my dd to go to church with me. She was saved and baptized when she was 6 years old and absolutely loved church. At age 8, she was getting tired of not having friends at church. She was spending more time with me in my volunteering opportunities with younger kids. I've never thought of that before. She's been pushed away just like me. Well, that truly makes me want to cry. No matter we are so messed up. The last time I asked her to go to church with me was last friday actually. I wanted to try a new church on sunday. She told me she didn't like not fitting in and it was easier to just not be like them. She has spent the last 3 years saying she no longer believes in God. I have never stopped believing. I have problems with the Bible being the word of God and Jesus being a deity. No matter what I read in the Bible, I can't wrap my head around it.

 

I guess it might have been a few months ago that I posted about wanting to find my faith again. I got some good suggestions from people here. I contacted a couple of nearby churches. The people I spoke to were very kind indeed, but basically told me I'd have to figure it out myself and pointed me to several resources to read.

 

Ugh, and now I've done something to the font on my screen and everything is large. I hope it doesn't affect how my response posts. :)

[Night Elf]

I feel like I am responding way too much to these things...

 

Yeah, me too, though not for the same reasons as you. Religion and faith are just a huge sore spot for me. I feel it's yet another club I am not welcome in. Gosh, that sounds so dark and depressing. :tongue_smilie:

 

I need a group that is willing to talk out Bible passages, beliefs, interpretations, etc. and then end with a smile, kind word and a hug. I saw groups like that at my last church home, but I didn't experience them. I was the married woman with an unchurched husband. I didn't like the pats on the head and the 'oh poor you' attitudes.

 

I actually miss the young lady Jehovah's Witness that used to visit me. She was so sweet.

[Night Elf]

I apologize if any of my words offended anyone. I can explain why, and did so partly in another post, but it's no excuse. I'm lashing out because I hurt. I shouldn't be taking that out on anyone here. This is yet another wrist slapping for me. I am doing that quite often lately.

[Hsmomto4]

Beth it just sounds like you are hurting right now and I have to say there isn't a Christian out there that hasn't been hurting before. I pray that God opens your eyes and you can understand the scriptures you are reading (Corinthians 4:3-6, Jeremiah 5:21-22, John 1:5, Matthew 13:10-15, Acts 26:17-18) and that you will find someone whom you can trust and sit down and talk about scriptures together, build a relationship with and draw close to Christ. :)

[keptwoman]

Beth, I'm a lapsed Christian and not overly bothered about it to be honest. But have you heard of Alpha groups/courses? They are for people new to or rediscovering the faith and they cover the sort of thing it sounds like you want. I am in Australia obviously, but a quick Google tells me the Alpha groups originated in the UK Anglican church, and they are in the US in various denominations. It might be worth checking out to see if any are run near you.

[Lovedtodeath]

I need a group that is willing to talk out Bible passages, beliefs, interpretations, etc. and then end with a smile, kind word and a hug. I saw groups like that at my last church home, but I didn't experience them. I was the married woman with an unchurched husband. I didn't like the pats on the head and the 'oh poor you' attitudes.

 

I actually miss the young lady Jehovah's Witness that used to visit me. She was so sweet.

Jehovah’s Witnesses provide personal and group instruction in the Bible at no charge, just like what you describe. If you would like to have a visit in your home or at some other convenient place, this will gladly be arranged. I am sorry she hasn't been back. I wonder what happened.

[Dirtroad]

You realise you invite that type of response in being so quick to deny, or dismiss as less, the positives of any religion except Christianity. I suspect it is not your religion that invites argument. I think people here might well be trying to acertain whether you can agree that other religions have contributed positive things to the world without tacking on 'but Christianity is waaaaaayyyy better so that stuff the other guys have done doesn't really count.' I understand that you think Christianity is the superior path to follow, because you wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Are you able to agree that other religions have positive elements? You understand that it is not denying your faith in any way to say "Yeah, those other guys have some good points." Some of us here would find it easier to have respect for your views if the answer to my above question is yes. Of course if the answer is no, you're still entitled to your opinion. :001_smile:

 

Rosie

 

I started in this conversation as a simple answer to the OP question. Then I got hit with the accusation the "I" was condemning Hindus to hell. I had to counter to explain that I have no power or desire to do so.

 

Then I got hit with a post about how horrible Christians are and all the wicked atrocities that they have caused.... which btw offered NO MENTION in these post of the of atrocities of others. (hmm, I wonder if perhaps their intention was more about attacking the Christian church than truly discussing progresses & gifts from other faiths).

 

I countered with argument that included attrocities by others (inc. scientist) which were being erroneously assigned to Christians. I only attempted to defend the church against these broad, over generalized, & even exaggerated atrocities. Many of which were not really the church... and attempted to provide examples. I even commented that a few can be directly laid at the church's doorstep... but NOT at the feet of Christ.

 

I will not begin to list the greatness of any other relegion. Shouldn't that be the ROLE of those who have listed how awful Christianity is in comparison? Yet have provided nothing in that comparison.

 

If others would like to share the wonders & modern blessings of Hinduism, Voodoo, the Muslim faith, etc (limitless list)... they may feel led to do so. ;)

[prady]

I'd like to give a small well written concise writeup i found on the net on Hinduism. Would like to share your thoughts and opinions on this:

 

Context 1:

Western concept of liberty as a political system: e.g. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It's a very broad framework. It does not go into the minutia or stipulate what it is that would make you happy etc.. Does it mean, that you can bring in a rigid system of communism or fascism ideology under that framework of "LLPH"? Obviously not since those political ideologies would violate the basic framework of liberty in the political context. However, you can still have socialism as normative values within the frame work of "LLPH".

 

Now apply the same concept when it comes to Hindu religion vs a vis other religions. There is no set ideology that Hindus should adhere, to be a Hindu.. Hinduism is freedom of spiritual quest for an individual as long as the framework is not violated. if you insist that your belief or ideology is the only true one and every other faith is in violation, then you are violating the basic freedom of spiritual quest and most Hindus would not accept that as being Hindu.

 

Context 2:

 

Another illustration is how western liberal ideology is pilloried by some conservative society of the world by pointing out to the worst in western civilization as an excuse for they not adopting a free society. They often point to p-orno-graphy in the west as failure of a free society They conveniently do not realize that westerners do not necessarily celebrate p-orno-graphy instead consider that a price they have to pay for living in a free society.

 

Let me apply that to Hinduism. Because there is no rigid rules, you would find some odd and strange practices within Hinduism including some bizarre Tantric rituals. Missionaries and religious supremacists often illustrate these sects to point to the failure of Hinduism just like countries that have a tyrannical political system who point to p-orno-graphy as the central tenet of free society. Hindus would tolerate these bizzare tantric practices (within the context of a law and order) and not necessarily celebrate them as Hindu customs.

 

 

Context 3.

 

Process of scientific quest: Scientists and the process of scientific quest is about the pursuit of that never reaching wall of knowledge. Its the pursuit and not about finding all the answers there is to know. Its about the constant debate. Yet, you would find some individuals (Creationists) who would use this as a weakness to deride scientists and what they do.

 

In Hinduism, its not about a set of revealed set of truth given to 1 or 2 individual that has adjudicated all questions and that subsequent generation would just have to accept this "adjudicated revealed truth" hence forth and that they would be punished if they challenge these "truths". Instead, Hindu beliefs are really musings of individuals (sears) over a period of time and these musings still continue and will never end just like scientific musings are a never ending pursuit.

I thought this was a neat write up and explains the authors views quite well.

 

Regards

 

Prady

Edited August 20, 2009 by prady

[Jugglin'5]

I have never stopped believing. I have problems with the Bible being the word of God and Jesus being a deity. No matter what I read in the Bible, I can't wrap my head around it.

 

 

 

Beth, don't give up. :grouphug:

 

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

 

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."

 

 

 

Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

 

Jesus doesn't demand great works or great faith or the ability to fit in. He came to save the sick not the healthy. I hope and pray you find the peace you are looking for.

[Rosie_0801]

You didn't answer my question. It required a yes or no. If you have time to type out that great long reply below, you have time to say yes or no. I didn't need to read another post justifying why you write what you write, I know it already. Since you didn't answer my question, am I to summarise your response as "Bugger off, I don't want to talk to you!"

The question was:

Are you able to agree that other religions have positive elements?

I'm not asking you to provide examples, because a) I know plenty already and b) you have more interesting things to do.

 

I will not begin to list the greatness of any other relegion. Shouldn't that be the ROLE of those who have listed how awful Christianity is in comparison? Yet have provided nothing in that comparison.

I think you are misinterpreting. I have seen no one say that Christianity is worse than everyone else. I've seen people saying Christianity has skeletons in it's closet just like everyone else, I've seen people saying they've had smeggy experiences with Christians and Christianity. I've not seen anyone say Christianity has no positive features. It would be a dumb thing to say, if they did.

 

Rosie

 

I started in this conversation as a simple answer to the OP question. Then I got hit with the accusation the "I" was condemning Hindus to hell. I had to counter to explain that I have no power or desire to do so.

 

Then I got hit with a post about how horrible Christians are and all the wicked atrocities that they have caused.... which btw offered NO MENTION in these post of the of atrocities of others. (hmm, I wonder if perhaps their intention was more about attacking the Christian church than truly discussing progresses & gifts from other faiths).

 

I countered with argument that included attrocities by others (inc. scientist) which were being erroneously assigned to Christians. I only attempted to defend the church against these broad, over generalized, & even exaggerated atrocities. Many of which were not really the church... and attempted to provide examples. I even commented that a few can be directly laid at the church's doorstep... but NOT at the feet of Christ.

 

I will not begin to list the greatness of any other relegion. Shouldn't that be the ROLE of those who have listed how awful Christianity is in comparison? Yet have provided nothing in that comparison.

 

If others would like to share the wonders & modern blessings of Hinduism, Voodoo, the Muslim faith, etc (limitless list)... they may feel led to do so. ;)

[Rosie_0801]

Hi Prady. You're brave to jump into a religion thread with your first post :)

 

I don't know a whole heap about Hinduism, but I think that article shows the religion to be a lot more flexible than the culture it lives in has played out.

 

What have the Hindus done to court everyone's attention, anyway?

 

:)

Rosie