negativity, marriage and friendship.

[Stacy in NJ]

I'm struggling to find the right words to assist my dstep-sis in some marital issues she's having. She has been my dearest friend since I was 8 and she was 7, so our relationship is long and I thought until recently really strong.

 

She and her dh have been recently talking divorce and I'm really flabbergasted by the idea. There is no overwhelming issue, no infidelity, no gross neglect or misconduct, just a general sense of real unhappiness and dissatisfaction on her part. Her overall attitude to marriage has been spiralling into what I would call irrational negativity. I don't believe that she's suffering from depression; she has a professional career and is very happy in her work. Her relationship with her dc is close and happy. He husband is really a very decent guy, a good provider and loving person.

 

We've had conversations recently about the roads we haven't taken in life, the opportunites we've passed by. Doesn't everyone get to some mid-point in their life, realize there are no do-overs and have a few regrets? The regret seems to be consuming a better part of her personality, and I'm not recognizing her any longer. I think she's throwing way a good, loving marriage in the hopes of some transformational future that will never materialize. I'm beyond frustated in trying to communicate with her.

 

How to you tell an adult, a usually sensible and responsible adult, that they're on the wrong path without alienating them?

 

She is not a practicing Christian, so while CC content is fine, it probably will not alter her opinions or actions.

 

Anyone BTDT?

[abbeyej]

I know you *said* you don't think she's depressed, but nearly everything else you said about her made me think that she very well may be. Certainly one can have a thriving career and close personal relationships and still suffer from depression. (Unfortunately, I think the common response right now is to throw medication at the problem and call it a day -- when counseling, with or without medication depending on other factors, would likely make a greater difference.)

 

It's a very sad situation certainly -- and such a tough one for you, as you try not to alienate her but also figure out how to tell her hard truths... I'm so sorry.

[KingM]

I've known more than a few people who have divorced for what seem like trivial reasons to me. I'm especially bewildered when the couple seemed to get along before the divorce and continue to be friends after. Sometimes they say they've simply grown apart.

 

Well, I don't get it, but surely most people who divorce have decided there is no alternative. It's such a wrenching decision, that I can't see how you'd do it on a whim. And yet...

[Stacy in NJ]

I know you *said* you don't think she's depressed, but nearly everything else you said about her made me think that she very well may be. Certainly one can have a thriving career and close personal relationships and still suffer from depression. (Unfortunately, I think the common response right now is to throw medication at the problem and call it a day -- when counseling, with or without medication depending on other factors, would likely make a greater difference.)

 

It's a very sad situation certainly -- and such a tough one for you, as you try not to alienate her but also figure out how to tell her hard truths... I'm so sorry.

 

She seems really exhilarated by the idea of divorce, as if the marriage is the only imprediment to happiness. She has had individual therapy, and together they've had couples therapy, although she's never tried medication.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Abbey.

[Rosie_0801]

It sounds like life is too comfortable, and people tend to feel disgruntled and fidgety when things are going too well. We all need to feel we're working towards something.

 

If I was in your position I'd say "Honey, it'd be a shame if we were to have a big bust up and stop speaking after all these years, but this is keeping me awake at night so I'm going to say it anyway: You're being a doofus. Divorcing a good fellow isn't going to make you happy. You'll feel free for a couple of months, then you'll miss having someone around and you'll have to go out dating to find someone who is pretty much like the man you left. It would make so much more sense to keep the man, and work on remembering why you like him."

 

What are these great and wonderful things she could be doing if she wasn't living in the same house as her husband? They are probably things they can work on. If it were my marriage, my itchy feet would be solved by a trip to somewhere terribly interesting like a tour in Central Asia. My dh wouldn't have a bar of that. He'd rather go to Rome. That wouldn't be exotic enough if my feet were really itchy, so we'd compromise on the Roman ruins along the northern coast of Africa. That's my plan for our retirement, heheh. If your sister's husband wants to keep her enough that he's going to counselling, he'll probably agree to things she doesn't expect him to agree to.

 

If she's getting worse, I would hazard a guess that her counsellor isn't approaching things very well, and may be fueling her sense of entitlement more than s/he ought to be. Or your sister has simply made up her mind and is now collecting evidence to support her decision.

 

Anyway, I'd just come out and say whatever you want to say, but that's because I lack tact and I think people pussy foot around for fear of hurting someone's feelings, when a bit of straight talk would solve the problem. Of course people expect me to be blunt, so I can say things without offending people as much as they'd be offended if it came from someone else. Don't know if it's the right thing for you to do, but if she's turning into someone you don't like anyway, it could be worth a shot.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[stripe]

Yeah, I had a friend whose parents split up after 25+ years of marriage. It was a very ugly divorce. About a year later they got remarried. I don't get it at all.

[JudoMom]

It sounds like life is too comfortable, and people tend to feel disgruntled and fidgety when things are going too well. We all need to feel we're working towards something.

 

If I was in your position I'd say "Honey, it'd be a shame if we were to have a big bust up and stop speaking after all these years, but this is keeping me awake at night so I'm going to say it anyway: You're being a doofus. Divorcing a good fellow isn't going to make you happy. You'll feel free for a couple of months, then you'll miss having someone around and you'll have to go out dating to find someone who is pretty much like the man you left. It would make so much more sense to keep the man, and work on remembering why you like him."

 

What are these great and wonderful things she could be doing if she wasn't living in the same house as her husband? They are probably things they can work on. If it were my marriage, my itchy feet would be solved by a trip to somewhere terribly interesting like a tour in Central Asia. My dh wouldn't have a bar of that. He'd rather go to Rome. That wouldn't be exotic enough if my feet were really itchy, so we'd compromise on the Roman ruins along the northern coast of Africa. That's my plan for our retirement, heheh. If your sister's husband wants to keep her enough that he's going to counselling, he'll probably agree to things she doesn't expect him to agree to.

 

If she's getting worse, I would hazard a guess that her counsellor isn't approaching things very well, and may be fueling her sense of entitlement more than s/he ought to be. Or your sister has simply made up her mind and is now collecting evidence to support her decision.

 

Anyway, I'd just come out and say whatever you want to say, but that's because I lack tact and I think people pussy foot around for fear of hurting someone's feelings, when a bit of straight talk would solve the problem. Of course people expect me to be blunt, so I can say things without offending people as much as they'd be offended if it came from someone else. Don't know if it's the right thing for you to do, but if she's turning into someone you don't like anyway, it could be worth a shot.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

:iagree:

[Word Nerd]

Maybe you could pass along this essay as food for thought.

 

Those Aren't Fighting Words, Dear

[MamaT]

I have been with my dh for almost 30 years. There are so many seasons, good and bad, in a marriage. It opting out is a choice, most people will. What has kept me married through the bad times, or even just the boring times, is that I believe wedding vows are a promise to each other and to God. I believe that once you have children you have an obligation to stay married and make it work. You have to be the grown up.

 

Sticking together through all the craziness of life has made us closer now than when we married.

 

Maybe you just need to remind her to be the grown up. Kids don't care if their parents are HAPPY, they want them TOGETHER.

[Denisemomof4]

Yes, admittedly, only to my two closest friends and dh, I've been there recently. But my stress and lack of sleep was causing me to constantly think of how much easier my life would be if I were alone. Only after my mother's death (I was her full time caretaker) did I SLEEP and realize how completely irrational I was. My life was overwhelming and exhausting and my dh had nothing to do with how I was feeling. He's ABSOLUTELY the best thing that's ever happened to me and we are soulmates and will always be together. The mind is a dangerous thing.

 

It's easy to get caught in this trap. It's like a slow yeast starter. You keep growing on the good yeast (bacteria) in the air and you keep the bad yeast out. That is my analogy for marriage. :001_smile: It's easier to let the bad yeast and bacteria in, especially by neglecting the starter. I'm sure she and her dh aren't "growing" their marriage into a healthy one but are distracted by life, or even fantacies. Perhaps she's not speaking about something that's causing her thought track to deteriorate or stray. She can look at a friend's husband, a coworker, and COMPARE (which is ALWAYS dangerous!) and think that they've got it better. It's so easy to put your energies into something that's not real, but it's HARDER to work on something meaningful.

 

It's hard to find a decent man these days. I thank God for sending me a man who is my biggest fan, my provider, my protector, my best friend. She likely doesn't realize the gem she has, and hopefully she will before she loses it.

 

Personally, I find marriage SO EASY and FULFILLING when BOTH parties are doing their part. If she is feeding her husband and marriage, and he's feeding his wife and marriage, life is absolute bliss. If something is amiss, it's time to evaluate and correct accordingly. I think both of them owe it to each other to make their marriage a priority before they think of turning away from it; ESPECIALLY if they have kids.

 

Oh, I want to say so much more but I'm tired and need to go cuddle with my hubby. :001_smile:

 

I always feel so sad for people who are in an empty marriage. Life is SO MUCH HAPPIER with a true soulmate but it requires feeding by BOTH sides.

[Peela]

It sounds like she is not happy, period, and its probably because she isnt doing what she wants to do somehow, or she is repressing herself for role of wife and mother and career and something in her feels trapped...I agree with Rosie that she may need to just break out and follow her dream- or maybe even give herself permission to dream first.

 

I think a lot of us get disgruntled with our marriages at times, but often its not our partner that is at fault. Its that we are staying in a safe spot instead of doing what we need to do in our lives- and its easy to put that on a partner. And partners are inherently easy to blame for our life's dissatisfactions because they always have some faults.

[Harriet Vane]

Maybe you could pass along this essay as food for thought.

 

Those Aren't Fighting Words, Dear

 

Excellent essay. Definitely a keeper.

[Caitilin]

Excellent essay. Definitely a keeper.

 

 

Amen, sister. This is excellent. I will have to remember this. :001_smile:

[Stacy in NJ]

And partners are inherently easy to blame for our life's dissatisfactions because they always have some faults.

 

Yes, I think that's true. She could be married to Mr. Perfect and it just wouldn't matter. She'd still be unhappy.

[Stacy in NJ]

It sounds like life is too comfortable, and people tend to feel disgruntled and fidgety when things are going too well. We all need to feel we're working towards something.

 

If I was in your position I'd say "Honey, it'd be a shame if we were to have a big bust up and stop speaking after all these years, but this is keeping me awake at night so I'm going to say it anyway: You're being a doofus. Divorcing a good fellow isn't going to make you happy. You'll feel free for a couple of months, then you'll miss having someone around and you'll have to go out dating to find someone who is pretty much like the man you left. It would make so much more sense to keep the man, and work on remembering why you like him."

 

What are these great and wonderful things she could be doing if she wasn't living in the same house as her husband? They are probably things they can work on. If it were my marriage, my itchy feet would be solved by a trip to somewhere terribly interesting like a tour in Central Asia. My dh wouldn't have a bar of that. He'd rather go to Rome. That wouldn't be exotic enough if my feet were really itchy, so we'd compromise on the Roman ruins along the northern coast of Africa. That's my plan for our retirement, heheh. If your sister's husband wants to keep her enough that he's going to counselling, he'll probably agree to things she doesn't expect him to agree to.

 

If she's getting worse, I would hazard a guess that her counsellor isn't approaching things very well, and may be fueling her sense of entitlement more than s/he ought to be. Or your sister has simply made up her mind and is now collecting evidence to support her decision.

 

Anyway, I'd just come out and say whatever you want to say, but that's because I lack tact and I think people pussy foot around for fear of hurting someone's feelings, when a bit of straight talk would solve the problem. Of course people expect me to be blunt, so I can say things without offending people as much as they'd be offended if it came from someone else. Don't know if it's the right thing for you to do, but if she's turning into someone you don't like anyway, it could be worth a shot.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

As I've mentioned, we do have a close relationship and I have told her in strong terms what I think about the situation. She and I have always been on the same wave lenght, so it's really troubling to me that she just can't seem to hear me now.

 

Their family is rather well to do, without financial concerns, so there isn't that need keeping them together.

[afeminame]

I would suggest that they take a look a this book together. Sex, Communication and Money by Edwin Cole, it is a Christian book. Most marriages fall apart because of these three things. If they could take the time to pin point what their issue really is, get Christ centered than I believe there would be hope for their marriage.

[Rosie_0801]

As I've mentioned, we do have a close relationship and I have told her in strong terms what I think about the situation. She and I have always been on the same wave lenght, so it's really troubling to me that she just can't seem to hear me now.

 

Their family is rather well to do, without financial concerns, so there isn't that need keeping them together.

 

Suppose you email her the link to this thread :) If she doesn't want to hear, it doesn't matter what you say. My sister has had issues for years and systematically ignored any pearl of wisdom from me, because I wasn't the person she wanted the help from.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[Joy at Home]

It sounds like life is too comfortable, and people tend to feel disgruntled and fidgety when things are going too well. We all need to feel we're working towards something.

 

If I was in your position I'd say "Honey, it'd be a shame if we were to have a big bust up and stop speaking after all these years, but this is keeping me awake at night so I'm going to say it anyway: You're being a doofus. Divorcing a good fellow isn't going to make you happy. You'll feel free for a couple of months, then you'll miss having someone around and you'll have to go out dating to find someone who is pretty much like the man you left. It would make so much more sense to keep the man, and work on remembering why you like him."

 

What are these great and wonderful things she could be doing if she wasn't living in the same house as her husband? They are probably things they can work on. If it were my marriage, my itchy feet would be solved by a trip to somewhere terribly interesting like a tour in Central Asia. My dh wouldn't have a bar of that. He'd rather go to Rome. That wouldn't be exotic enough if my feet were really itchy, so we'd compromise on the Roman ruins along the northern coast of Africa. That's my plan for our retirement, heheh. If your sister's husband wants to keep her enough that he's going to counselling, he'll probably agree to things she doesn't expect him to agree to.

 

If she's getting worse, I would hazard a guess that her counsellor isn't approaching things very well, and may be fueling her sense of entitlement more than s/he ought to be. Or your sister has simply made up her mind and is now collecting evidence to support her decision.

 

Anyway, I'd just come out and say whatever you want to say, but that's because I lack tact and I think people pussy foot around for fear of hurting someone's feelings, when a bit of straight talk would solve the problem. Of course people expect me to be blunt, so I can say things without offending people as much as they'd be offended if it came from someone else. Don't know if it's the right thing for you to do, but if she's turning into someone you don't like anyway, it could be worth a shot.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

 

I would hesitate being this judgmental. I've learned that you NEVER really know the whole story between a husband and wife. It's such a complex relationship. You may say he's a nice guy and a good provider, but who knows the layers of their relationship over the years. I'm not saying divorce is the answer, but I don't know that I would reduce her unhappiness to trivial matters either. The dynamics between her and her husband are known only to them, and they could have been having issues for years.

 

I don't know. It's a difficult thing. This is happening with my sister now. Almost exactly. It's heartbraking. But in the end I have to respect her decision and not judge her.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[OrganicAnn]

Assuming that there isn't some hidden problems in the marriage that you don't know about. Part of her excitement might be that she imagines that it will be like to be single. Her experience of being single was probably when she was young and free. She might want that back.

 

But here is reality... she is not the same person. She is not as young. She will be divorced with kids. Even if they are well off, divorced they will not be as well off. What she might not realized that her life will get so much more complicated. Depending on the age of her kids there is arranging visitation, splitting holidays, etc. Her nice husband may turn against her making everything more difficult. Now if she needs to work out her schedule for traveling or work with him, no problem he's her husband. But after the divorce, he will have his life and not be as accommodating. Her kids might not take it well and turn against her. She might lose other friends, family. She might even have some guys in mind, but unless she really is having an affair she doesn't know if there will be anyone in her life. She might find that all the good looking single/divorced men she knows that are around her age wouldn't be interested in her, because they want to date 20 year olds.

 

Anyway, I hope she isn't deluding herself. Often people make decisions and look back and wonder why.

 

I was reading Evelyn Waugh's A Handful of Dust and it was about a wife who became bored and the fall out.

Edited August 5, 2009 by OrganicAnn

[Stacy in NJ]

Thanks for your perspective, Denise. I do think that she's just "getting" the full implications of her actions, and that, in fact, there maybe a fantasy element in her thinking.

[MariannNOVA]

the best she can hope for is ambivalence.

[Cindyg]

Maybe you could pass along this essay as food for thought.

 

Those Aren't Fighting Words, Dear

 

Good article. Thanks for sharing.

[MariannNOVA]

the article is excellent - I would definitely pass that along.

[Joanne]

That is a terrific article.

 

But, like other anecdotal stories about complex issues, is limited in application to situations.

 

I am going to post in opposition - somewhat - to the other posters. Yes, it is born of my experience.

 

Here is what I *know*. I *know* you can be close to someone, know someone, have a long history with someone and still not understand or know about their marriage.

 

As I've mentioned, we do have a close relationship and I have told her in strong terms what I think about the situation. She and I have always been on the same wave lenght, so it's really troubling to me that she just can't seem to hear me now.

 

You've said your side, you've shared your opinion of the situation. What I'd like to ask you now is do you want to be a good friend or do you want to be right? If she moves foward with separation and divorce and encounters difficulties, will you be able to "be there for her" or "support her"? If she stays and remains unhappy, will you be there for her?

 

Look, you could be totally, completely and 100% correct in your assessment of the situation. You could also be wrong.

 

Well meaning, loving, smart and experienced friends' advice kept me in a marriage far longer than was good for me, for the kids. It might be that she's already in a position to choose from several difficult, challenging options.

 

Pain, confusion, transitions are real - even if you think she should "feel" or think differently. Regardless, your friend is hurting. Respond to her hurt, her confusion with love and care. Trust her, her intelligence, her intuition to eventually make the choice that is right for her reality.

 

I"m not pro-divorce. Truly, I'm not. I'm not anti-men or anti-marriage. But "divorce is not an option" kills. Not usually literally, but I died under my own and other's "divorce is not an option" and therefore compromised my ability to deal, respond and be proactive after the needed and over-due divorce.

 

If you can't offer your unconditional friendship about her hurt at the moment, be honest and let her "be" where she is. You can't move, reprimand or "stern" her out of it anyway.

 

{{{hugs}}} to both of you, the DH and kids involved.

[Carrie12345]

Look, you could be totally, completely and 100% correct in your assessment of the situation. You could also be wrong.

 

Well meaning, loving, smart and experienced friends' advice kept me in a marriage far longer than was good for me, for the kids. It might be that she's already in a position to choose from several difficult, challenging options.

 

Pain, confusion, transitions are real - even if you think she should "feel" or think differently. Regardless, your friend is hurting. Respond to her hurt, her confusion with love and care. Trust her, her intelligence, her intuition to eventually make the choice that is right for her reality.

 

I"m not pro-divorce. Truly, I'm not. I'm not anti-men or anti-marriage. But "divorce is not an option" kills. Not usually literally, but I died under my own and other's "divorce is not an option" and therefore compromised my ability to deal, respond and be proactive after the needed and over-due divorce.

 

 

:iagree:

There was a period in my marriage where I was in terrible, terrible pain. I'm positive things looked just lovely from the outside, and I'm sure I sounded like a pathetic twit to the few I confided in.

 

When things are so complex, they're nearly impossible to put into coherent thoughts, let alone words. If my dh was unable to understand what I was going through, how could an outsider?

 

Fortunately (VERY fortunately!), we were able to find a great counselor who helped me express my thoughts and feelings in a way dh could understand and we could work toward addressing.

 

If we hadn't had that help, yes, I would have been better off divorced. There is no way I could have spent the rest of my life living and parenting in that state, even though everything looked fine from the outside.

[katemary63]

Maybe you could pass along this essay as food for thought.

 

Those Aren't Fighting Words, Dear

 

What a fantastic essay. Unbelievable!

[MariannNOVA]

I"m not pro-divorce. Truly, I'm not. I'm not anti-men or anti-marriage. But "divorce is not an option" kills. Not usually literally, but I died under my own and other's "divorce is not an option" and therefore compromised my ability to deal, respond and be proactive after the needed and over-due divorce.

 

This WAS so true in my case! I can completely understand the phrase 'needed and over-due.' My life was a horror, my daughters' lives were a horror, and one of my older dds will likely never recover from the horror.

 

And, yes, we looked 'perfect' -- OMH, we looked SO perfect!

 

Thanks to Joanne for writing this.