Disappointed in physical format of book [VENT]

[Orthodox6]

I received a copy of the Writing With Ease Level 2 workbook. I used the word "disappointed" in the thread title; however, "royally annoyed" more accurately describes my feelings. The instructor pages constitute the first section of the book; student pages in the second section are to be torn out for use. Aaurgh ! For identical cost, I'll posit, there could be two paperbacks sold as a unit -- one with teacher pages, the other with student pages. Instead, I have to put up with more clutter (loose papers, many of them ripped during removal from the book, strewn about the house). More brad-folders to buy. Some customers prefer the neatness of workbooks ! I worked for some years in marketing research, and dh still does. Publishers of educational materials should examine their customer base's preferences, even for physical characteristics of materials !

 

Steam now dissipating. . .

[PeterPan]

Did you check with PHP to see if they're selling them like that? Sometimes they do (separate tests for SOTW available, etc.).

[arcara]

We do all of the writing on regular notebook paper. I don't think the student pages are necessary.

[Orthodox6]

I purchased from Amazon for the valuable cost reduction.

 

The teacher pre-digested pages are not sold as "stand alone" -- only bound with one set of the student pages. PHP sells separate student workbook pages, presumably to accommodate multiple children using the course.

 

Of course I can -- and will -- have dd write in a spiral-bound notebook. I shall, then, have paid for the useless (to us) printed pages.

 

I realize how purely stupid my thoughts will strike some people. I'm venting about clutter and waste -- two major concerns for me.

 

P.S. The book's content satisfies me just fine !

[JudoMom]

This is how they sell the SOTW activity books as well.

 

I simply take them to a Kinko's type place, have the binding cut off, have the teacher's pages spiral bound, and then 3 hole punch the student pages for photocopying. This costs maybe $5. Easy-peasy solution :).

[Orthodox6]

Thank you for this common sense solution. The publisher could have done this in the first place ! :)

 

This is how they sell the SOTW activity books as well.

 

I simply take them to a Kinko's type place, have the binding cut off, have the teacher's pages spiral bound, and then 3 hole punch the student pages for photocopying.

[bkpan]

This is how they sell the SOTW activity books as well.

 

I simply take them to a Kinko's type place, have the binding cut off, have the teacher's pages spiral bound, and then 3 hole punch the student pages for photocopying. This costs maybe $5. Easy-peasy solution :).

 

Thats funny, I just did this today! I will reuse this for multiple dc, so it made sense for me. I removed all of the student pages last night (not a single rip in the bunch). Could not have been simpler:D

 

Kim

[Matryoshka]

I simply take them to a Kinko's type place, have the binding cut off, have the teacher's pages spiral bound, and then 3 hole punch the student pages for photocopying. This costs maybe $5. Easy-peasy solution :).

 

This is exactly what I did (got the idea here of course) :)

 

You don't even have to 3-hole punch the student pages, it's already done for you.

 

I have no idea why it is not sold this way. It's so much easier to use! They already sell extra student pages separately - they should sell the teacher's manual alone (spiral bound rather than perfect bound like it is now - it's so great to be able to flip the book all the way open!) without the student pages bound in at all!

 

And then they should make the student pages only available separately - most perfect would be if they had them available in more than one line width - the line width on level 2 really is too wide. We're just using them anyway, but I've heard so many people say they're not because of this. Someone suggested having them downloadable - that would be a great idea too.

[TengoFive]

If I recall correctly, the most expensive part of a book is the binding. So dividing them into 2 separate books would significantly raise the price.

[Matryoshka]

If I recall correctly, the most expensive part of a book is the binding. So dividing them into 2 separate books would significantly raise the price.

 

Not if they did't bind the student pages at all, or offered them as a download.

 

Even so, it can't cost more than $5 per book extra, which is what I had to pay to un-bind it and then re-bind the teacher portion.

[Jen+4dc]

If I recall correctly, the most expensive part of a book is the binding. So dividing them into 2 separate books would significantly raise the price.

 

Why not sell them seperately then? I, too, find the huge lines too big for my dc. I'd like to just buy the teacher part like they let you buy an extra set of the student pages. I could buy just the teacher part and have my dc use regular paper? Just a thought!:001_smile:

[nchser]

Besides the fact that having the student pages combined with teachers makes the book far more cumbersome.

I'd love 2 smaller SOTW Activity Books.

[nukeswife]

I have to agree that this was the most frustrating part of using WWE last year. If you don't have the binding removed and use the student pages in the back then you have this book with a big gap in the back where the pages have been removed which makes it quite odd to pick up etc.

 

I would much prefer being able to buy the teacher portion as a bound (perfect or spiral) and then buy the student pages as a looseleaf set.

 

I also had trouble with how huge the lines were on the student pages. Even my 1st grader doesn't write on paper that big for anything.

[Orthodox6]

I did not expect so many replies !

 

The volume features bottom-of-the-line-cost binding: glued in pages.

Separating the work into two glued-in volumes, each with the heavier-stock paper cover, should NOT increase production costs or reduce profit margin.

 

Pages do not have punched holes. User must punch holes herself.

 

Pages are perforated for tear-out -- but with the perforations buried deep into the binding, making the task difficult. I expect sheets will rip when removed.

 

The paper stock is heavy-weight, which I like.

 

My complaints duly noticed, I have to observe that WWE is a very young product. I don't know whether the publisher places weight on customer feedback about the physical properties of the product.

[Matryoshka]

I did not expect so many replies !

 

I think you hit a nerve. :tongue_smilie: You are not alone. :D

 

Pages do not have punched holes. User must punch holes herself.

 

Are you absolutely sure? I only got this book a short while ago, and while the teacher pages were neither perforated or hole-punched, I could've sworn the student pages were both. Or maybe it was only perforated? Have I blanked out hole-punching all those pages?? :confused: It's like some kind of PTSD...

 

Pages are perforated for tear-out -- but with the perforations buried deep into the binding, making the task difficult. I expect sheets will rip when removed.

 

The beauty of having the binding cut off at Kinko's is that it renders that problem moot. Zip, the binding's off, and the peforated pages (or some not) are all loose and can be dealt with. (Okay, I did spend some time obsessively ripping off the tiny bit of paper that was left past the perforation after the spine was cut. But that could be seen as the teensiest bit anal. ;))

 

The good news is, that in its new format, it's easy to use, and both my dd and I have enjoyed using it content-wise. I am planning on buying the 3rd workbook.

[Orthodox6]

To preclude misinformation, I brought the book upstairs with me to the office computer.

 

I like the Kinko's idea -- but must calculate the cost of gas to drive to the town which has one, plus the projected $5 cost (which I suspect will be higher).

 

 

Are you absolutely sure? I only got this book a short while ago, and while the teacher pages were neither perforated or hole-punched, I could've sworn the student pages were both. Or maybe it was only perforated? Have I blanked out hole-punching all those pages?? :confused: It's like some kind of PTSD...

 

[Julie in MN]

I have no idea why it is not sold this way. It's so much easier to use! They already sell extra student pages separately - they should sell the teacher's manual alone (spiral bound rather than perfect bound like it is now - it's so great to be able to flip the book all the way open!) without the student pages bound in at all!

 

We're using the SOTW-4 Activity Guide and have the separate student pages.

 

I look at the pages in the guide as the "master set" which I have if needed. I might need to make an extra copy if ds's was ruined or otherwise want the master copy on hand.

 

I look at the student pages ds has as his "workbook."

 

IMHO, if you want to save money, you have to deal with extra work. If you want less work, then you have to be willing to pay someone else to do the work. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

 

Julie

[Matryoshka]

To preclude misinformation, I brought the book upstairs with me to the office computer.

 

This is scary. I looked and the holes I have do look smaller than pre-punched paper - aaah, I'm going senile! :scared:

 

I like the Kinko's idea -- but must calculate the cost of gas to drive to the town which has one, plus the projected $5 cost (which I suspect will be higher).

 

LOL - I drove to another state. Okay, I live near the border. But that was money well spent!

[Alessandra]

I just saw the workbooks today at a hs convention, and I have say I agree with op -- you did hit a nerve. I was contemplating using this with an older child, so writing pages with large lines would be pretty much useless -- and I was very surprised at how much of the book was writing pages. The idea behind the book is very appealing, as are the reading selections, but the way it's put together is not.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Alessandra

[Matryoshka]

IMHO, if you want to save money, you have to deal with extra work. If you want less work, then you have to be willing to pay someone else to do the work. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

 

 

I did pay the extra money. And I'd be willing to pay a bit of extra money to get it in the form I ended up with it in up front, without the driving and the hole-punching.

 

But that doesn't mean that they can't sell the two pieces separately and make all our lives easier. People who want a 'master copy' can just buy two copies of the student pages. Or, the student pages could be downloadable, then you always have a master! I have quite a few curricula as e-books.

 

I find it kind of nutty to perfect-bind a book and peforate over half the pages, which are intended to be consumable, leaving the other half of the non-perforated pages bound, so if you use it as intended you end up with a book with an essentially broken binding flopping all about. :confused::confused:

[Orthodox6]

Usually I unwittingly step on toes, rather than strike nerves ! ;)

 

I first bought the hardbound "teacher book", then decided to take dd through level 2, as quickly as she can do so comfortably. She is completing 4th grade, and exhibits writing talent (from age 4, when she wrote her first story). She is weak on mechanics and organization, so I thought a "dose" of WWE might help.

 

I agree with Julie's point about lower cost may equate to greater buyer labour.

 

As I noted, though, there would be no detectable increased cost to the publisher to sell the identical workbook, packaged together at the same price, as two glue-bound paperbacks, one for teacher, the other for student.

 

I just saw the workbooks today at a hs convention, and I have say I agree with op -- you did hit a nerve. I was contemplating using this with an older child, so writing pages with large lines would be pretty much useless -- and I was very surprised at how much of the book was writing pages. The idea behind the book is very appealing, as are the reading selections, but the way it's put together is not.

[Wendy in ME]

So while we're on this topic, does anyone know if Staples cuts bindings and spiral binds? I am not aware of a Kinkos nearby and I am planning to use WWE 1 next year.

[Matryoshka]

So while we're on this topic, does anyone know if Staples cuts bindings and spiral binds? I am not aware of a Kinkos nearby and I am planning to use WWE 1 next year.

 

Staples does do it - my local Staples told me to go to Kinko's, though, as they said their machine wouldn't do as good a job (appreciated the honesty). But that might just be that one store.

[Guest bookwormmama]

Ok everyone I am challenged here in that I don't have a picture of this... and need to SEE what it is you are all talking about to understand what the problem is...

 

The WWE teacher's guide text is one book right?

Then, there are separate workbooks for each level, correct? I am not seeing what the problem is... please help me understand. I almost placed my order last night and I want to make sure that I will be getting what I want.

 

Thanks,

[TengoFive]

The teacher's guide is more of a how to manual, that you can use with whatever reading material you like. The workbooks are more of a scripted format with passages chosen for you to read. The front section of the workbook has the teacher's instructions and the back is the student pages. If you have the SOTW Activity Guide its a very similar format.

 

Ok everyone I am challenged here in that I don't have a picture of this... and need to SEE what it is you are all talking about to understand what the problem is...

 

The WWE teacher's guide text is one book right?

Then, there are separate workbooks for each level, correct? I am not seeing what the problem is... please help me understand. I almost placed my order last night and I want to make sure that I will be getting what I want.

 

Thanks,

[Lovedtodeath]

The teacher's guide is more of a how to manual, that you can use with whatever reading material you like. It contains about 1/5th of the lessons. To get a full Teacher's Manual you need the workbook. You actually do not need the hardbound teacher's guide if you have the workbook. The important "don't miss out on" section is on the PHP site as a sample. HTH

[Annabel Lee]

:iagree: Just in case anyone is looking for market feedback, ahem, I too would much prefer the option not to have to spend money on the WWE student writing pages. Unless line width choice is implemented. The lines in level 2 are too big for even my K'er let alone my 2nd grader using the program, but we use them anyhow because they're there. I'd like the option to purchase only the front half (instructor's portion) of the WWE workbook and use handwriting paper of my choice. Maybe the cute pictures could be included as stickers to decorate our own handwriting paper? Just a thought. :001_smile:

[asta]

So while we're on this topic, does anyone know if Staples cuts bindings and spiral binds? I am not aware of a Kinkos nearby and I am planning to use WWE 1 next year.

 

The last time I brought a book in to Staples to be cut and bound, I got the "we really aren't supposed to do this to copyrighted material" speech.

 

Huh?

 

I bought the book. I was having them re-bind the book (it had fallen apart) with the original cover. Very strange.

 

I wish that there were still book binderies around... I have so many books that could use a new, solid binding. (the only one I know of is a school for the blind in Belgium, and, well, it's not like I'm going there!)

 

 

asta

[Carrie12345]

We're using WWE in the fall, but it hasn't arrived yet. I'm very appreciative of the heads up!

 

This past fall, I took many of our school books to Staples. I had some spiral bound and others hole punched for binders. While I'm glad to have had it done, I was less than thrilled with Staples spiral binding. My pages are always catching. And the thick gardening book I brought in was too thick for their options.

 

Does anyone know if Kinkos has nicer options? Or any other store, for that matter? We'll have another stack to modify this fall, and I'm still looking to have that big gardening book done!

[Wendy in ME]

Thanks for the heads up about Staples binding.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

This is how they sell the SOTW activity books as well.

 

I simply take them to a Kinko's type place, have the binding cut off, have the teacher's pages spiral bound, and then 3 hole punch the student pages for photocopying. This costs maybe $5. Easy-peasy solution :).

 

This is what I did...cost me $3.00.

[Alessandra]

I took SOTW Activity book to Staples for rebinding. They cut off the binding and it looked fine, so I had the teacher part spiral bound. Then the extra glue dried and the pages stuck together a bit -- useable, but it doesn't lie flat. They said that they had been trying not to cut off too much off the pages. Minor problem, but really irritating.

 

Thanks for the heads-up about Staples vs Kinko's!

 

ETA from my post earlier in this thread: I tried out the WWE samples on dc. They loved the stories and couldn't do the narration well, so I think WWE will be perfect. Even if I rebind and throw away the writing pages, it will still be relatively inexpensive for a writing program.

 

I wonder if I could upload the cute pix and paste them into a Startwrite page? Answer: not in this lifetime, lol!

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I wish that there were still book binderies around... I have so many books that could use a new, solid binding. (the only one I know of is a school for the blind in Belgium, and, well, it's not like I'm going there!)

Well back in the day I had to have my master's thesis professionally bound, is this the kind of binding you're talking about? Isn't this still required in graduate schools? There were several binderies located around my university.

[asta]

Well back in the day I had to have my master's thesis professionally bound, is this the kind of binding you're talking about? Isn't this still required in graduate schools? There were several binderies located around my university.

 

I hadn't thought about that... you're talking about a BOOK binding, correct? Two hard cardboard pieces covered in some kind of fabric, sewn into place etc.?

 

I hate spiral bindings, no matter how "flat" they open. They just never seem like "books" to me - they seem like workbooks. Does that make sense?

 

(asta, who has many, many spiral bound "books")

[abbeyej]

We do all of the writing on regular notebook paper. I don't think the student pages are necessary.

 

We do this as well. I find the student pages virtually useless (my kids have *never* written on lines as big as the ones in the level 2 book!), but I wanted it for the teacher pages, not the student pages anyway. I have dd using a regular composition book for all of the written work. It works well for us.

[Lovedtodeath]

:iagree: Just in case anyone is looking for market feedback, ahem, I too would much prefer the option not to have to spend money on the WWE student writing pages. Unless line width choice is implemented. The lines in level 2 are too big for even my K'er let alone my 2nd grader using the program, but we use them anyhow because they're there. I'd like the option to purchase only the front half (instructor's portion) of the WWE workbook and use handwriting paper of my choice. Maybe the cute pictures could be included as stickers to decorate our own handwriting paper? Just a thought. :001_smile:

 

We do this as well. I find the student pages virtually useless (my kids have *never* written on lines as big as the ones in the level 2 book!), but I wanted it for the teacher pages, not the student pages anyway. I have dd using a regular composition book for all of the written work. It works well for us.

 

It doesn't seem right to me that the selection to copy is in a small font, but the lines are large. My DD needs the selection to be the size that she is to write in. I don't really see how this can be corrected since we all use the program with such a variety of ages, but I too would like the option of purchasing the teacher's pages only. The student pages are really not needed.

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok, I have to jump in here and say :iagree:

 

I HATE those large lines. They are too large even for my Ker who is doing WWE 1 not to mention my 3rd grader whose doing WWE2. We use the bottom half the lines. I would also prefer to have 2 separate books so you're not left w/ half the book gone. And would much prefer the text portion to lie flat. And would definitely like a PDF document for the student pages.

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I hadn't thought about that... you're talking about a BOOK binding, correct? Two hard cardboard pieces covered in some kind of fabric, sewn into place etc.?

That's what it was in my case; I mean, that's what the thesis committee required. I didn't really explore the options at the bindery, so I don't know what all they were equipped to handle. I just walked in with the list of requirements and handed it to them, kwim?

[EKS]

Do they sell the student pages separately also? The SOTW activity guides are the same way so instead of chopping up my AG (I usually have the binding cut off workbooks) I bought the student pages separately.

[Orthodox6]

I may be discussing a "lost art", but it could be worth following up on.

 

Libraries used to archive their magazines and journals on microfiche, microfilm, or in bound, physical copies. I do not know what is done today.

 

When I was head of the serials department of a college library, every so often we would ship things to the bindery. As a faculty member/department head, I happily took advantage of the opportunity to send some of my personal books (home library) to the bindery to be turned into lovely hardbacks.

 

Those so interested might try calling the serials department of their local public and/or academic libraries to ask whether the staff recommend a particular bindery, and whether it accepts "general public" customers.

[Guest bookwormmama]

Is it possible to petition to SWB to change the binding on this already so we can buy it how we want it without putting out the extra money to have to fix everything ourselves. I am reading this and feeling daunted... more things I have to do... and it's not encouraging me to want to buy this program at all. I know we are going to get WWE and even SOTW but I never imagined I was going to have to rebind everything. I don't have time to do all that! Ugh.

[sagira]

I'm just using the SOTW activity guide as is. Meaning, I'm using the guide for myself, then I will rip up each student page as he works on it and add it to his Book of Centuries/History pages. I can always buy another set of student pages for dd when the time comes. I have enough to do already than to have to rebind :)

[Whereneverever]

First, I had no idea a Kinkos could rebind something. :lol: Second, now that this has been pointed out, I see the frustration. I wonder if SWB will see this and have future editions changed? :confused:

[rafiki]

.

[Jen+4dc]

I prefer spiral bound teacher's manuals so they open flat in addition to a student workbook with grade appropriate lines and enough space around the question to work and answer it completely (for grammar, math, etc.).

 

:iagree::iagree: I'll even spend a little more if that's already done and I don't have to go to Kinko's!! My time is worth A LOT!;)

[Lovedtodeath]

I prefer spiral bound teacher's manuals so they open flat in addition to a student workbook with grade appropriate lines and enough space around the question to work and answer it completely (for grammar, math, etc.).

 

 

So how would you prefer the student pages then?

[Matryoshka]

So how would you prefer the student pages then?

 

I would prefer them sold separately (from the teacher pages sold alone which would be great spiral bound) - either as a download or on 3-hold punch paper just shrink-wrapped that I could plop into a binder.

 

If they can't make multiple line sizes available for download (that's ideal, but does seem a lot to ask), then I think it should just be narrower. I've seen many, many complaints from people who wanted them smaller and either used their own paper of sucked it up and used them wide (that's me), but I've yet to hear from a single person who liked that size line, at least in WWE2. I really, really hope the lines in the WWE3 workbook are narrower! I mean, that's for third grade or older, right?

 

I have to say for WWE2, at least, I did like that it had the dotted middle line - it's why we sucked it up and used them anyway. While narrower with mid-line would've been better, my dd still needs that mid-line reminder to keep her lowercase letters from being all kinds of different sizes - I realized I had moved her to regular wide-rule paper too early and her penmanship really suffered (just the penmanship book wasn't enough). She also likes the little pictures on the student pages.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I would prefer them sold separately (from the teacher pages sold alone which would be great spiral bound) - either as a download or on 3-hold punch paper just shrink-wrapped that I could plop into a binder.

Okay, me too. I was wondering.

[Impish]

I guess its incredibly weird here in Canada. Student activity pages ARE sold shrink wrapped, hole punched for SOTW. Just pop 'em in a binder. The SOTW is spiral bound. I love it, personally.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I wonder if I could upload the cute pix and paste them into a Startwrite page? Answer: not in this lifetime, lol!

Just a reminder that if you did this, and then later sold your original book, you would be in violation of copyright laws. You could certainly physically cut the pics off and paste them onto a Startwrite page. It would be much easier.