TKD moms

[4ofus]

For those of you with kids in TKD - or other similar activities - 

 

In our TKD studio, if a student shows up without his belt, he has to do pushups.

 

If your activity has a similar rule...can you share it? How many pushups/situps/whatever it is for the infraction.

[Butter]

It depends on age and rank.  First time they forget their belt, they get a warning (little kids get more warnings because it's honestly usually the parent's fault if they don't have their belt).  Second time it's 10-25 push-ups.  Third time, it's double, and so on.  Black belts who forget their belts have to do more, particularly if they are 2nd+ degree and a teenager or older.

[jenn-]

If you show up without some part of your uniform, you line up in the back and treated without rank if it was your belt that was missing.

[8circles]

Nothing happens if you forget your belt.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

At our school you have to line up at the back if you forget your belt. Depending on age and rank, you might also have to do 10-25 push-ups. My DS forgot his a couple of weeks ago but he's already the last one in line so it wasn't a big deal. They're pretty patient with him since he's the youngest in the school (younger than they typically allow kids to start).

[HS Mom in NC]

Our TKD school is run by an Asian immigrant and has mostly the children of Asian immigrants enrolled. (Mine is an Asian adoptee.)  No one would even consider entering the doors without a belt.  They would be absent.  It just isn't done.  Ever.
 

[Jean in Newcastle]

At ours, no one shows up without a belt because they come wearing the uniform.  So it would be very obvious that you didn't have it when you were putting on the gi.   In fact, your top wouldn't fit without the belt.   

[4ofus]

Here's why I'm asking ~ he left his belt as his friend's house this weekend. Friend is also a TKD student & was bringing the belt, but ds didn't think about that. He was stressed to enter w/o his belt, but he knew he'd be penalized, & then get on with it.

 

Fwiw, he's been attending about 5 years. He's 11. He's never been w/o his belt before.

 

Unfortunately, our beloved school owner was dx w/stage 4 cancer in Jan & passed away in May. The school has been taken over by another owner in the group. The new owner has his own school, so he is not there & has installed a lead instructor in this, now, satellite school.

 

Anyway...the penalty was 50 pushups.

 

He did them & then hit the mat for class. He said during stretching, then drills, he was beginning to feel poorly, cold sweats, blurry vision, nausea. He asked for permission to get water - granted. He returned to his spot but immediately got up & went to the side of the mat where he sat down trying to get okay. He sat for a short while, then laid, then vomited.

 

At this point the lead instructor & an assist came to his side.

 

I'm trying to think reasonably here...he's a tough kid...was this too much?

 

His brother, also in the class, exited, borrowed a phone from a friend in the lobby, & called me to come get him (I was getting a couple of groceries up the street).

 

He's okay now. He says he's just super tired.

 

This description was pieced together based on his & his brother's accounts.

 

I'm seriously not loving our new leadership & I'm finding myself with the not-so-nice thoughts that he got what he deserved by giving the 50 pushups before class. But, I also realize my not-love could be coloring my perception of the event.

 

Thoughts?

[Meriwether]

50 push ups would not make my TKD kids sick. I would guess he was coming down with something else and the activity made him feel worse.

If one of our kids forgets a belt, they sit out the class.

[8circles]

Here's why I'm asking ~ he left his belt as his friend's house this weekend. Friend is also a TKD student & was bringing the belt, but ds didn't think about that. He was stressed to enter w/o his belt, but he knew he'd be penalized, & then get on with it.

 

Fwiw, he's been attending about 5 years. He's 11. He's never been w/o his belt before.

 

Unfortunately, our beloved school owner was dx w/stage 4 cancer in Jan & passed away in May. The school has been taken over by another owner in the group. The new owner has his own school, so he is not there & has installed a lead instructor in this, now, satellite school.

 

Anyway...the penalty was 50 pushups.

 

He did them & then hit the mat for class. He said during stretching, then drills, he was beginning to feel poorly, cold sweats, blurry vision, nausea. He asked for permission to get water - granted. He returned to his spot but immediately got up & went to the side of the mat where he sat down trying to get okay. He sat for a short while, then laid, then vomited.

 

At this point the lead instructor & an assist came to his side.

 

I'm trying to think reasonably here...he's a tough kid...was this too much?

 

His brother, also in the class, exited, borrowed a phone from a friend in the lobby, & called me to come get him (I was getting a couple of groceries up the street).

 

He's okay now. He says he's just super tired.

 

This description was pieced together based on his & his brother's accounts.

 

I'm seriously not loving our new leadership & I'm finding myself with the not-so-nice thoughts that he got what he deserved by giving the 50 pushups before class. But, I also realize my not-love could be coloring my perception of the event.

 

Thoughts?

Given that our Dojo has no penalty for forgetting anything, I think 50 pushups is excessive.  Very excessive even.

 

Are you sure he isn't sick?  None of my kids have had this kind of experience with exercise causing that kind of response.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm just not familiar.

 

Regardless, I do think that considering these kinds of policies is fair when determining which Dojo/Master to study at/under.  I know it was a huge factor for us.

[38carrots]

My kids do a different martial art, but for comparison if a kid forgets his or her belt he's given a white spare, but is told to line up on their usual spot--so if the kid was a green belt, with the green belts. Not super relevant to you, but I love our school's philosophy.

[38carrots]

I wonder if he was sick not only because of they physical activity but also because he felt upset / embarrassed or overall emotional over the punishment? :grouphug: 

[4ofus]

 

 

Are you sure he isn't sick?  

 

No, I'm not sure. But he was fine all day - no complaints - & his only complaint after is exhaustion. 

 

Still could be sick. I haven't ruled it out.

[4ofus]

50 push ups would not make my TKD kids sick.

 

I kinda think that too. He said his arms were tired, but that was about it. 

 

Both boys do lots of this kind of conditioning & have for a lot of years.

 

They don't do 50/day or anything, but if you'd have asked me earlier if either one could *do* 50 pushups, I'd have said "Yes, I'm pretty sure."

[4ofus]

I do think that considering these kinds of policies is fair when determining which Dojo/Master to study at/under.  I know it was a huge factor for us.

 

I was very choosy when we selected our previous Master. When the school changed hands, my kids wanted to stay. Their whole community is there. They lost so much when they lost him to cancer, they are trying to find the good in the new leadership so they don't lose everything they love about TKD.

 

They really don't want to start again somewhere new. And I really don't blame them. But, as all martial arts moms know...the Master is everything. There are some good, some great, some bad, some terrible. The leadership is so important.

[hjffkj]

The only time we get penalized for not wearing our belt is during testing. They simply would not allow you to test without a proper uniform.

 

But i dont thi k 50 pushups is excessive for a child who has been doing martial arts for 5 years. It is likely he got sick because he was nervous about not having his belt and what the penalty would he could have also been doing them improperly and got lightheaded from not breathing while doing them which a lot of people tend to do if they are trying to knock out a repetive exercise to get it done quickly.

[hjffkj]

Dp

[4ofus]

 got lightheaded from not breathing while doing them which a lot of people tend to do if they are trying to knock out a repetive exercise to get it done quickly.

 

This is a good point...he actually has great form, but I wasn't there watching tonight.

 

I can imagine a situation where he was trying to bang them out as quickly as possible to minimize the unwanted spotlight.

[jenn-]

Considering my DD just had to do 100 push ups (and yes she can do them) for accidental head contact during a spar gear free game, I wouldn't think twice if my student doing this for 5 years was expected to do 50 push-ups as a reminder not to forget their belt.  I would guess there was some hyperventilating/overheating and/or illness coming on causing him to get sick.  Stomach bugs typically come on quickly and without warning around here.

[Truscifi]

The only time we get penalized for not wearing our belt is during testing. They simply would not allow you to test without a proper uniform.

 

But i dont thi k 50 pushups is excessive for a child who has been doing martial arts for 5 years. It is likely he got sick because he was nervous about not having his belt and what the penalty would he could have also been doing them improperly and got lightheaded from not breathing while doing them which a lot of people tend to do if they are trying to knock out a repetive exercise to get it done quickly.

 

Same penalty at our dojo - if any part of the uniform is missing at testing the student doesn't test. We do pushups if late to class, how many depends on the age and rank of the student. Generally not more than 20 though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Could he be getting the flu?

 

Could he have had a hypoglycemic episode?

 

I would want to know the why on the symptoms.  Were they directly caused by the push-ups or were they coincidental?  

 

 

[mathnerd]

It is excessive. In our school, they are not given any stripes on the day with no belt, first time offender warning +15 pushups. They are thrown out of the class if it repeats. In the 4+ years that DS has done TKD, he forgot his belt thrice. The first time he was the youngest in the school and really a four year old is not fully responsible for his gear, so they let it go. The second time, I went home and fetched the belt in the first 10 minutes of the class as it was my fault again to have taken the belt out of the gear bag. On the third time, it was DS's fault and he refused to attend class and we left because he did not want to make excuses to his Master. I am sure that he would have gotten 15 pushups, but he did not want to face the instructor who would have given him a lecture on responsibility. He has never forgotten his belt after that incident.

 

From seeing how my DS was worried that his Master Instructor would think less of him for forgetting his belt, I guess that your DS was very self conscious and worried when he was doing his pushups and those feelings could have contributed to his feeling unwell.

[Butter]

What's his rank?  Is he a black belt?  50 push-ups is not excessive if he is a very high rank.  If he's not and it's a first offense, it is excessive.  However, 50 push-ups is unlikely to make a kid who has been doing TKD for 5 years sick.  I wonder if he was suffering low blood sugar.  His symptoms fit.  We often do a fit test.  That's 30 push-ups, 50 sit-ups, 100 punches (10 sets of 10 in specific patterns), 10 punch-punch-kick, punch-punch-kick repetitions, and then a kicking pattern that is 10 repetitions of a specific 6 kicks.  At black belt testing this needs to be done by everyone testing in 5 minutes or less.  11 year olds do this along with some younger kids and many older people.

[Rebel Yell]

Here's why I'm asking ~ he left his belt as his friend's house this weekend. Friend is also a TKD student & was bringing the belt, but ds didn't think about that. He was stressed to enter w/o his belt, but he knew he'd be penalized, & then get on with it.

 

Fwiw, he's been attending about 5 years. He's 11. He's never been w/o his belt before.

 

Unfortunately, our beloved school owner was dx w/stage 4 cancer in Jan & passed away in May. The school has been taken over by another owner in the group. The new owner has his own school, so he is not there & has installed a lead instructor in this, now, satellite school.

 

Anyway...the penalty was 50 pushups.

 

He did them & then hit the mat for class. He said during stretching, then drills, he was beginning to feel poorly, cold sweats, blurry vision, nausea. He asked for permission to get water - granted. He returned to his spot but immediately got up & went to the side of the mat where he sat down trying to get okay. He sat for a short while, then laid, then vomited.

 

At this point the lead instructor & an assist came to his side.

 

I'm trying to think reasonably here...he's a tough kid...was this too much?

 

His brother, also in the class, exited, borrowed a phone from a friend in the lobby, & called me to come get him (I was getting a couple of groceries up the street).

 

He's okay now. He says he's just super tired.

 

This description was pieced together based on his & his brother's accounts.

 

I'm seriously not loving our new leadership & I'm finding myself with the not-so-nice thoughts that he got what he deserved by giving the 50 pushups before class. But, I also realize my not-love could be coloring my perception of the event.

 

Thoughts?

 

how many push-ups can he normally do?  50 is no big deal for my DD, but 10 would wreck some other kids.  Did he try to do them too fast?

 

 

[JudoMom]

I don't consider 50 excessive for someone who has been at a sport for 5 years. It would surprise me if the actual pushups made him ill without additional issues (getting a bug, nerves, low blood sugar, etc). Honestly, it wouldn't be a blip on my radar. I wouldn't have had a problem giving a 5 year student 50 pushups for an infraction when I was a sensei.

 

But it boils down to what you're comfortable with, and it sounds like there are other issues at play. I know how hard it is to leave a dojo (we had to leave ours almost 2 years ago because of leadership character issues and I miss it so).

[SKL]

Probably just a mild scolding for us.  Our teachers are really nice.  :)  Though they tend to be a bit more serious with the young adults and kids old enough to take it.  They are super nice to me because I am about 2x the age of my teachers.  It's almost like age before beauty or something.  ;)

 

The only time we forgot our belts was for a belt test, of all times.  We were traveling and had driven into town for a soccer game followed by a belt test before driving back out of state to our next destination.  And it was my kid's birthday.  Too much to think about.  So we forgot the belts.  However, since it was belt test day, they lent us some of their extra belts and we got through it.  :P

[scbusf]

At our karate dojo, if a student forgets his belt, he has to borrow a white belt from the instructor and line up at the end of the line.  Not sure if all places are the same, but our students line up by rank.  I have never seen anyone forget a belt more than once!

[4ofus]

I think 50 is more than he is normally asked to do, which is understandable as this was a penalty.

 

I think he can do 50. In fact, he even says the pushups were fine & he doesn't think they were the problem. He's decided the problem was the 2 slices of pizza he had right before going to TKD. He might be right, although brother & I ate the same pizza w/o a problem. Maybe he just needs less-fast-food.

 

 

I am having a harder time than they are with our new leadership. It's good for me to hear from others that the penalty was reasonable (I really don't know what it was under our previous Master. We never came up against it).

 

My misgivings about the current situation do not need to be further emphasized by events that really...are fine.

 

 

I'm still in mourning for sure over the loss of a man that I had imagined would remain a mentor for my boys for their teen years. He modeled strength, determination, integrity, leadership, etc. masterfully. He knew his craft intimately & he knew how to teach anyone who walked in the door. It was impressive.

 

Our new owner took on the school, thankfully, as it might've closed without him, but he is busy with his own school in a neighboring town. He installed a lead instructor - whom just turned 18 this summer.

 

Not only are we in mourning, but the transition from a mature, experienced leader to a young, inexperienced leader has been HARD. We've lost more than just TKD experience...but really, life experience.

[SKL]

Oh, I agree that 50 push-ups for an active 11yo should not have been too much.  I would see that as a sign that something was not right with the boy, not the dojang.

 

When I was about 35 or 40 I used to do 100 push-ups as one part of my light morning exercise routine.  I am not an athlete.  If you're in condition, it is not a big deal.

[Paige]

We've been in 3 schools, all with native Korean instructors. In every school, if you are late or forget your belt, the instructor may pretend to get all mad and then will smile, and either give a loaner belt (often white, but sometimes whatever rank you have) and they'll move you into your place in class at a convenient time. If it happens often, they'd speak to the parent and child after class about the issue to see if there's a problem. If the problem is simply forgetfulness, the kid will likely get in more trouble (maybe sweeping the dojo or something) than if it's something like the parents are the late people. 

 

Honestly, from the stories I have heard about how these instructors were treated as children in Korea, I think they are gentler and kinder with the children than many of the American instructors we have seen because of how they felt as kids and because they want things to be different. That's not to say they aren't very strict with in-class discipline and with their expectations for behavior outside of class, but they are kind about things and their treatment of the kids. 50 pushups in front of the class (or within sight) would be a punishment for being silly in class or something like that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If he had those symptoms after having had (very high carb)  pizza, I would worry about how he's handling glucose.  A health check might be in order for him.  

[Butter]

I think 50 is more than he is normally asked to do, which is understandable as this was a penalty.

 

I think he can do 50. In fact, he even says the pushups were fine & he doesn't think they were the problem. He's decided the problem was the 2 slices of pizza he had right before going to TKD. He might be right, although brother & I ate the same pizza w/o a problem. Maybe he just needs less-fast-food.

 

He is probably exactly right.  It probably wouldn't have mattered if he did push-ups or not if he had been working out very hard in class.  He was most likely suffering indigestion basically.  The grease from the pizza getting all jiggled around in his belly made him feel sick.  It's happened to me before.  It's not so much needing less fast food, but not eating greasy food before exercising.  Some people have no problem doing that, others get sick.

[Butter]

My son (14) just said "Why are my arms so sore?  Oh, yeah, all the push-ups we did!"  In adult class yesterday they did the fit test (so 30 push-ups in a row) and in black belt class (he's not a black belt yet but will be testing for his first degree in December) they did drills that included lots of push-ups as well as some other things.  He did somewhere between 70 and 100 push-ups during those drills.  Higher ranks do a LOT of push-ups sometimes (none of these were punishment... this was just regular class).

[8circles]

I just wanted to clarify my use of the word excessive. I don't think it's too many push-ups. They regularly do that many in class. I think it's excessive as punishment for forgetting a belt. But our Dojo seems to be unique in that there aren't penalties for this kind of thing at all. There are penalties for being disrespectful or goofing off in class (usually being asked to leave the floor) but not forgetting something. Just last week my black-belt 12yo forgot his whole uniform bag. (Big school project and just generally busier than usual lately). He also helps the younger ones get their gear ready and in the car and just didn't grab his on the way out. The Master actually gave him a spare (pants & T-shirt used in summer)to keep and loaned him a belt. DS performed his usual duties during class. DS has perfectionism down really well, so learning that it isn't the end of the world to forget something is a really important lesson.

 

I know my opinion is still the minority but I think the excessive comment was being misunderstood.

[Butter]

Our instructor definitely takes into consideration extenuating circumstances (which is why little kids never get punished for forgetting belts since it's probably a parent's fault, really).  That's also why the first time is just a warning.  There are some kids who routinely forget their belt.  They automatically start doing push-ups.  Somehow we forgot my 9 year old's bag one day and he wasn't punished in any way, not even a warning.  In fact, our instructor laughed because the other three of us had our bags.  Sometimes things happen.  It is very likely in this particular situation, unless he was a black belt, even if it was his second offense, no punishment would've been given.  50 push-ups would be a second or third offense for a black belt (with no extenuating circumstance - their belt was just sitting at home) and fourth or fifth offense for an 11 year old non-black belt.

[hjffkj]

I just wanted to clarify my use of the word excessive. I don't think it's too many push-ups. They regularly do that many in class. I think it's excessive as punishment for forgetting a belt. But our Dojo seems to be unique in that there aren't penalties for this kind of thing at all. There are penalties for being disrespectful or goofing off in class (usually being asked to leave the floor) but not forgetting something. Just last week my black-belt 12yo forgot his whole uniform bag. (Big school project and just generally busier than usual lately). He also helps the younger ones get their gear ready and in the car and just didn't grab his on the way out. The Master actually gave him a spare (pants & T-shirt used in summer)to keep and loaned him a belt. DS performed his usual duties during class. DS has perfectionism down really well, so learning that it isn't the end of the world to forget something is a really important lesson.

 

I know my opinion is still the minority but I think the excessive comment was being misunderstood.

See I view not wearing the proper attire to a martial arts class as disrespectful to the instructors teaching and the other students who came prepared. Of course it isn't the end of the world but repeat offenders do need some sort of incentive to remember to come prepared.

[Mandamom]

For my kids they get 10 push-ups per belt level. So, since my 9 year old and my 13 year old are higher level brown belts they would have to do a lot.

 

For either of my 2, I don't think that doing 50 push-ups would lead to the problems that your son had. I hope he's feeling better soon. 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

There are no repeat infractions at our TKD school in the 3.5 years we've been there. First, parents are interviewed when they are interested in signing up.  We're asked why we want our kids in their TKD school.  Apparently my answer, "To learn a discipline and how to work hard" was acceptable.  Children who can't follow directions and can't be respectful aren't allowed to continue. One kid was autistic and it was crazy that his parents signed him up in our school.  He couldn't cooperate.  The moment he (or any other child) distracted the learning by not cooperating, he was immediately removed from the rest of the class and the master's wife worked with him in a room away from the class.  He didn't make it long. I don't know if they get kicked out or they feel the pressure of being so bizarrely out of the norm, but he and another child with a mouth on him didn't continue.

There is a culture of respect and adherence to protocol. There is a culture of standing at attention and listening silently to instruction if you're not a preschooler. There is a culture of being prepared and on time.  There is a culture of silent respect among the parents watching. Parents and siblings talking so others can hear them and talking unnecessarily is disrespectful to the instruction and learning going on.  "Yes, sir. " and "Yes, ma'am." are the only acceptable responses to instruction. You don't come unprepared.  You can take any 3 classes each week of the 5 weekly classes in each belt level so if the kid isn't prepared, you don't go. 

 

Once the master said to the class, "Continue with jumping jacks until I'm done speaking with this parent."  When a few stopped the master came back and said, "I told you to continue.  Do not stop until I tell you."  He stood and watched them do jumping jacks for a solid 5 more minutes.  Once an older student volunteered to demonstrate a move.  When he got in front of the class he was goofing around.  The master said, "You're wasting the class's time.  Do push ups until I tell you to stop." It was a while.  It was shocking to see a child misbehave-they don't do that there.  It's just. not done.  That's why we love the school and the master and his wife.  It's a place where you truly get martial arts training-the physical skills, the mental skills and the culture.   That's what I'm spending my money and time on. Other people can choose whatever kind of martial arts school they like, but I wouldn't even consider one that was lax with disciplines and protocols.

[8circles]

See I view not wearing the proper attire to a martial arts class as disrespectful to the instructors teaching and the other students who came prepared. Of course it isn't the end of the world but repeat offenders do need some sort of incentive to remember to come prepared.

The master and the instructors at our Dojo do not. And we chose it because of this attitude. I think they have age-appropriate, healthy expectations for people.

 

Amazingly, the Master and all the instructors command respect but they do it with a smile, a kind word, and encouragement.

 

It really does work, and its fabulous.

[8circles]

There are no repeat infractions at our TKD school in the 3.5 years we've been there. First, parents are interviewed when they are interested in signing up. We're asked why we want our kids in their TKD school. Apparently my answer, "To learn a discipline and how to work hard" was acceptable. Children who can't follow directions and can't be respectful aren't allowed to continue. One kid was autistic and it was crazy that his parents signed him up in our school. He couldn't cooperate. The moment he (or any other child) distracted the learning by not cooperating, he was immediately removed from the rest of the class and the master's wife worked with him in a room away from the class. He didn't make it long. I don't know if they get kicked out or they feel the pressure of being so bizarrely out of the norm, but he and another child with a mouth on him didn't continue.

 

There is a culture of respect and adherence to protocol. There is a culture of standing at attention and listening silently to instruction if you're not a preschooler. There is a culture of being prepared and on time. There is a culture of silent respect among the parents watching. Parents and siblings talking so others can hear them and talking unnecessarily is disrespectful to the instruction and learning going on. "Yes, sir. " and "Yes, ma'am." are the only acceptable responses to instruction. You don't come unprepared. You can take any 3 classes each week of the 5 weekly classes in each belt level so if the kid isn't prepared, you don't go.

 

Once the master said to the class, "Continue with jumping jacks until I'm done speaking with this parent." When a few stopped the master came back and said, "I told you to continue. Do not stop until I tell you." He stood and watched them do jumping jacks for a solid 5 more minutes. Once an older student volunteered to demonstrate a move. When he got in front of the class he was goofing around. The master said, "You're wasting the class's time. Do push ups until I tell you to stop." It was a while. It was shocking to see a child misbehave-they don't do that there. It's just. not done. That's why we love the school and the master and his wife. It's a place where you truly get martial arts training-the physical skills, the mental skills and the culture. That's what I'm spending my money and time on. Other people can choose whatever kind of martial arts school they like, but I wouldn't even consider one that was lax with disciplines and protocols.

That's great that you want that & love it. Believe it was or not, though, the art and the strictness aren't married. There are many immigrant families in our Dojo who are relieved to have found a Dojo devoid of shaming where their children are respected as humans.

 

And I am thrilled with the level of skill they are being taught. We had a friend visit this summer who is a black belt & regional karate champion at home. She was astounded by the skill level the students achieve at our Dojo.