What is all this about students being required to take "Pre-AP" courses of the same subject before the course?

[...................]

This is a new thing, to me.  In fact, I don't think this existed ten years ago.  If you wanted to take an AP course, you just needed the math for some.  No one said you had to take pre-AP courses of the same subject.

 

A certain online school that we were interested said this is the advanced Science Sequence:

Pre-AP Biology

Pre-AP Chemistry

AP Biology

AP Chemistry

 

This does not fulfill our university requirements to take 4 Sciences, 3 of which have to be 3 separate lab Science subjects.  Even if my son did Chemistry AND Physics senior year, he would not fulfill the requirements of having 3 lab subjects.  The online provider seems to be implying that this is just "how it's done" nowadays.

 

However, the homeschooling book I am reading which details a rigorous Science course of study for my state recommends:

9th- regular Biology or another Honors Science

10th- AP Biology

11th- AP CHemistry

12th- AP Physics

 

So if this provider were correct, that is certainly not what is done in my state, where kids just take the AP course, they don't need a pre- course of the exact same subject.  IN FACT he said, that All AP Physics courses assume a previous physics course as well, and cautioned me that I would find it hard to find any physics course that would accept him without a pre-AP Physics course.

 

Am I daft or is this ridiculous.  To me, if a student has the math background, good study skills, time, high IQ and perseverance they don't need to take a course, to take a course!

[kiana]

It depends. For a talented student of course you can go straight to an AP biology. For a less talented student it might be a good idea to include pre-ap biology, which would cover a standard honors course plus a few of the beginning parts of AP biology, and then proceed to an AP biology class which would cover the rest and include test prep.

 

It's the same thing as how some schools do Calc AB and Calc BC in consecutive years, where the calc BC class reviews AB a bit, then goes straight into calc C and then does test prep, whereas others cover the entire BC syllabus in a year.

 

All of this being said, it is probably advisable to follow the prerequisites -- if they require "pre-AP chemistry" it is likely that the AP chemistry class will expect knowledge of basic chemistry already and will just review it a little rather than teaching it from scratch. If you want to go straight into AP classes I would go for a different provider.

[Arcadia]

Copied from my average district's student handbook for 2015/2016.  

 

"AP Biology Grades 11—12, Year (UC-D)

Prereq: Completion of both semesters of Biology and Chemistry with a C or better and teacher recommendation.

 

AP Chemistry Grades 10—12, Year (UC-D)

Prereq: Completion of Honors Chemistry with a C or better and teacher recommendation.

 

AP Physics 1/AP Physics 2 Grades 10—12, Year (UC-D)

Prereq: Completion of both semesters of Chemistry Honors and Trigonometry with a C or better and teacher recommendation.

 

AP Physics C Grades 11—12, Year (UC-D)

Prereq: Completion of all prior Physics courses and Calculus with a C or better and teacher recommendation.

 

AP Environmental Science Grades 11—12

Prereq: 2 years of lab science"

 

Is the online school a charter or a private.  The private online schools like CTY allows parents discretion when signing up for AP classes since you are paying full fee for the service.

[justasque]

Well,what used to be called "Pre-AP" chem used to be just called "high school chem", ditto for physics, etc.; these courses were taken in high school and the AP-type courses were taken in college.

[Luckymama]

The "Pre-AP" term seems to be a regional thing. Here in the Mid-Atlantic megalopolis, land of competitiveness, kids in public/private/charter school take a year of "honors" bio or chem before moving to the AP class. AP physics of any type (algebra 1/2, calculus C) is taken without any prior physics class but is dependent on math level. AP Envi Sci requires either bio or chem or both, depending on the school.

 

My ds took AP Physics C, both flavors, without any prior physics class (he had physical science in 8, bio in 9, chem in 10). He scored a 5 and 4 :)

[creekland]

Both Bio and Chem are normal courses all students take at the local ps where I work.  If they do well in those, they can take our DE version (the equivalent of AP).  One does not start those courses without having had Bio and Chem before.  The DE version counts on students knowing the basics already.

 

And middle son's college counts on students having had the DE or AP version before their Bio 101 course.

 

Things change over the years, that's true, but I also had to take regular Bio before taking AP Bio way back in the mid '80s.

 

Calc and Physics do not have pre-req similar classes at my school.

 

Euro History requires a World History class before it.  I don't think we offer anything for American History.

 

English DE only requires good grades through Honors English in 11th grade.

[creekland]

Hmm, never mind what I said about Physics.  The DE version is Physics II, not Physics I and I is required before II.

[ktgrok]

Growing up we did Biology, Chemistry, Physics, AP science of choice. 

Now, the local highschool does Chemistry, AP Chemistry, AP Biology, AP Physics. They still want a chem class before AP chem, but not before the others. 

 

My own son did Chemistry in 9th, is doing Biology in 10th, then will do Physics in 11th, and do dual enrollment science in 12th. At least, that's the plan. 

[...................]

Very interesting and helpful thread! The route this school is suggesting isn't sounding so bad now. Except as I said we have to cover 3 different science subjects. ...

[Butter]

Pre-AP is just what we used to call Honors and is still called Honors in some places.  It's funny... when my brother went to high school, it was A, B, and C levels.  When my sister went to the same high school a year after he graduated, they had changed it to Honors, A, and B levels because C was considered demotivational.  They still call them by those names today.  In the district where we live there is Pre-AP and regular.  The students do not necessarily have to take the Pre-AP class before the AP class.  It just depends on what the regular course of study is.  For example, the way they do it here, Biology is in 9th grade and Chemistry is in 10th here.  Then the student can take AP Bio or Chem in 11th or 12th, but World History is done in 10th here and they can go directly to AP World.  In 9th they take Geography and it is only offered as a Pre-AP course, but kids are allowed to take the AP test at the end of the year if they want even though the class wasn't a specific AP class.

[...................]

I'm so stressed out with all this college and high school planning.  Sigh.

[Jamee]

I am baffled by the AP courses today, particularly in the sciences. Why repeat courses? Why not do DE instead? I personally think there are too many AP courses today. If everything is AP, why not just go straight to community college?

[...................]

That's what my husband says.  What's the point of your entire last two years being all AP?  .......my dh sees the community college as such a useful, affordable, reasonable route....one can see why...here I am trying to figure out all this AP and testing craziness.  Option B is just two years of high school, (utilizing a strong rigorous online course load) and then viola...CC!

 

 

[forty-two]

My high school required regular or honors bio, chem, and physics to be taken before *any* AP science, although it wasn't hard to get an exemption from the physics requirement to take AP Bio. A friend of mine was allowed to take AP Chem without taking physics, but that was unusual. My schedule was honors Bio in 9th, honors Chem in 10th, honors physics in 11th, and then both AP Chem and AP physics in 12th.

[Arcadia]

Basis SV's suggested schedule from their website. (You can do the permutations and combinations :) )

 

8th - AP World History

9th - AP U.S. Government, Biology, AP Science (Chemistry or Physics I)

10th - AP Language or Honors English, AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

11th - AP Language, ​AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

 

8th - 12th grade

AP Art
AP Art History
AP Comparative Government
AP Computer Science
AP Economics (Grades 9-12)
AP Environmental Science
AP Human Geography
AP Music Theory
AP Physics C (must be enrolled in AP Calculus AB or higher and must also be enrolled in Honors Physics I or higher)
AP Psychology
AP Statistics (must be enrolled in Pre-Calculus or higher)

 

ETA:

Is he interested in the USA Computing Olympiad?

http://usaco.org/index.php

 

[LisaKinVA]

That's what my husband says.  What's the point of your entire last two years being all AP?  .......my dh sees the community college as such a useful, affordable, reasonable route....one can see why...here I am trying to figure out all this AP and testing craziness.  Option B is just two years of high school, (utilizing a strong rigorous online course load) and then viola.

 

 

Why?  Because it would cost us $600-800 to take one course at the CC.  Self-studying and paying for an AP exam can be very cost effective.

 

Because, if we use the testing options at the CC, my two oldest children would only require 3 courses (5 credits) to complete a General Studies AA, while possibly also having to compete as a transfer student instead of being an incoming freshman.

 

Because not all CC's have awesome agreements with universities.  In fact, our local CC courses (with very limited exceptions for a small handful of classes) do NOT transfer to roughly half of our universities.  So, not only would dh have to compete as a transfer student, they would have to re-take (and pay for) many classes again.

 

The CC route isn't always as simple as it sounds.  In some areas it's a GREAT option.  In other areas, not so much.

 

For us, we will self-study for as many APs as we can, and utilize the CC selectively for courses that enhance/expand their learning.  We can only afford two courses a semester -- so you can be certain, we won't be using those for an introductory Chem course if we can use the AP exam instead.  

 

The CC route is not always that simple -- and for us, is actually as expensive as many 4-year universities per credit hour, especially when you start factoring in available financial aid, or having to re-take classes at a 4-year university.

[LisaKinVA]

On the Pre-AP classes, I was over at the College Board website, and they actually have a "Pre-AP" course section.  My guess, is that this is another "money-making" opportunity.  Who knows, they may start requiring that in order to offer the AP courses, you have to also offer the Pre-AP courses... but that's my cynical side really coming to bear.

[Grantmom]

I am so confused about the same thing.  I took all three AP sciences with no pre-reqs in high school, but at the same time, I don't think I learned that much and they never even encouraged people to even take the AP exam.  I don't even know how many did.  I think times have changed though. 

[creekland]

Very interesting and helpful thread! The route this school is suggesting isn't sounding so bad now. Except as I said we have to cover 3 different science subjects. ...

 

With my own students (homeschooling) and at our local public school (plus my youngest), those heading  into the sciences often have many science credits.  They take more than one course per year, of course.

 

Those not heading into the sciences just do the basics - not even getting up to the DE courses.

 

My oldest did Bio, Chem, Marine Bio, and Physics - all at the high school level. (He's graduated with a Business degree.)

 

My middle did Bio, Chem, Microbio (DE), Chem II, Bio II (AP level), Anatomy, and Physics.  (He's headed pre-med with science majors.)

 

My youngest (ps for high school) did Bio, Chem, Bio (DE), Animal & Plant Science, Anatomy I & II, and Wildlife & Natural Resources. (He started as a science major in college, but has since switched to theater due to loving that more.)

 

I am baffled by the AP courses today, particularly in the sciences. Why repeat courses? Why not do DE instead? I personally think there are too many AP courses today. If everything is AP, why not just go straight to community college?

 

Some colleges (like middle son's) offer credit for high AP scores.  They do not for DE.  I had middle son do both AP and DE anyway since he was able to do courses in DE that aren't offered by AP (Microbio & Public Speaking), but as I paid oodles of $$ for those courses ($900 for Micro, $750 for Pub Speaking), I knew the chances were good that the credit wouldn't transfer at the level college he was looking at.  It was ok as we looked at them as high school courses.  College credit would just have been a bonus.

 

My oldest and youngest chose colleges where DE transferred, but oldest told me the same class at his college would have been more rigorous than his DE version (English, so he was happier to have the easier class!).  

 

Youngest attended one of middle son's Bio classes at his higher level school at the same time he was doing his own DE Bio - then afterward, told us the DE class was "Bio-lite."  The difference, as he explained it, was that in his DE class they talked about a biological process and were told "an enzyme aids with this."  Middle son's class was learning the names of the multiple enzymes involved AND what each did to assist in the process.  FWIW, majors in Bio are also not allowed to place out of the class with AP credit, but non-majors are allowed to use AP credit instead.  DE is not allowed.  Transfer students are allowed to bring in cc credits, but again, what counts for a major can differ.

 

Whether cc or DE is better totally depends upon the student and their needs.  Students can come in to middle son's school and take Bio 101 without having had AP or DE level, but they have quite a bit more to learn in their studying.  I suspect it definitely helped middle son to have had the AP foundation already.

 

It was similar with Calc BTW.  His college class went into far more depth (once they got past the basics) than his "college level" class.  That "college level" class (Thinkwell) was far superior to our own high school class.

 

Middle son's AP Stats was identical to the college class at his school.

 

There are different levels out there (even at colleges) pending where one goes and what one does.

[Dmmetler]

It would be really tough to take AP Bio (IMO) as your first bio course. There's just plain so much under bio, and the syllabus focuses on specifics without providing that foundation. You can study and prep your way through the test, but if you actually need college level biology for your long term plans, you're going to really have a tough time, especially if you then use the AP score to place out of general bio at the college level.

 

FWIW, a sequence of Bio, Chem, AP Bio or Chem, Physics (regular or AP) or AP Chem isn't uncommon here for PS grads, and no one has any trouble with the "three sciences with labs"-it's interpreted as 3 science classes, not as 3 separate science disciplines, and it's understood that general biology and AP bio (or chem) aren't the same thing.

[Luckymama]

I am baffled by the AP courses today, particularly in the sciences. Why repeat courses? Why not do DE instead? I personally think there are too many AP courses today. If everything is AP, why not just go straight to community college?

The AP classes offered here at the high-achieving public/private/charter schools are much harder than the DE classes offered at the CC. I don't know how the classes at the lower-achieving schools compare.

 

My dd will be/is competing against the students who attend the high-achieving schools for summer programs, college admission, and scholarships. She is capable of doing well, so why would I essentially handicap her by having her take classes at the CC instead of AP?

 

(We live on the east coast in a competitive area which colors our experiences.)

[creekland]

I am so confused about the same thing.  I took all three AP sciences with no pre-reqs in high school, but at the same time, I don't think I learned that much and they never even encouraged people to even take the AP exam.  I don't even know how many did.  I think times have changed though. 

 

Our school is like this.  When students do take the AP tests they rarely do well. Many years there wasn't even a single 3 in the class results.  It's as if the courses are AP in name only, but not content IMO.

 

Other schools have great AP classes where the bulk of students pass the exams with flying colors.

 

It all depends upon the school.

 

The fact that there is a national test at the end of the year allows students to be compared against each other and foundational content.  This is why many colleges accept AP, but not DE - they know nothing about the content and rigor of the DE course.

 

Most states require their state schools accept their cc credits.  It does not mean that cc/DE course was adequate unfortunately.  Many students find this out when they leave our school and get into their college class.

 

Some cc/DE courses ARE good.  If in doubt, discuss thoughts with the professors at the destination school(s).  They tend to know more than admissions does and will sometimes let students look at finals from other years to see how they would have done.

[MarkT]

"Pre-AP"  is just another name for "Honors".  My DS is taking Pre-AP 10th Grade English this year at his charter school he will take AP English next year.  Legally I don't think schools can use the term AP in non-approved courses but the College Board rightly does not want to waste money fighting that.

[LisaKinVA]

It would be really tough to take AP Bio (IMO) as your first bio course. There's just plain so much under bio, and the syllabus focuses on specifics without providing that foundation. You can study and prep your way through the test, but if you actually need college level biology for your long term plans, you're going to really have a tough time, especially if you then use the AP score to place out of general bio at the college level.

 

FWIW, a sequence of Bio, Chem, AP Bio or Chem, Physics (regular or AP) or AP Chem isn't uncommon here for PS grads, and no one has any trouble with the "three sciences with labs"-it's interpreted as 3 science classes, not as 3 separate science disciplines, and it's understood that general biology and AP bio (or chem) aren't the same thing.

 

I don't know...I don't think taking an AP-level course is really that much more (depending upon the student).  My kids have already had a thorough Life Science and A&P before high school.  The difference between that and the AP level -wasn't that huge.  Yes, there was more...but not that much more.  Back in my day, I tested out of both intro to Chemistry and Intro to Biology with just an honors-level science courses I had in 9th and 10th grade -- with a little self study.  My high school courses (back then, anyhow) were pretty thorough.  

 

Also, most 2nd and 1st tier schools don't allow you to CLEP out of pre-req's in your major -- exceptions would be those who major in humanities may still be able to use the AP for English/History, etc.  Most science majors won't let you test out of intro Biology/Chem/Physics/Math -- and they often offer two different tracks of intro courses (those for majors in the field and a humanities version).  

 

I'm willing to accept that for *some* students not having HS level course prior to AP is important, but definitely not for all.  This is not your average student -- but my 13yo jumped into AP Chem this year and is completing the coursework quickly and easily (compared to some juniors I know who are taking it this year). She is very math/science oriented.  What takes her longest is to read/take notes during the reading -- about 2 hours a chapter, but she accomplishes the practice problems in under an hour. Her class takes 3 hours of lecture, 2 hours of reading and 1 hour of practice, plus 2 hours of lab every other week.  Most of the juniors taking the class have the 3 hours of lecture, 4 hours for the same reading a week, and 2 hours on the practice problems, plus a 1.5 hours of lab (every other week) -- and they have had the intro to Chem course.  (DD isn't allowed to take the class at the high school, but our pacing/book/etc. are exactly the same). Of course, I guess it all comes down to the AP exam in May :D

[MarkT]

Basis SV's suggested schedule from their website. (You can do the permutations and combinations :) )

 

8th - AP World History

9th - AP U.S. Government, Biology, AP Science (Chemistry or Physics I)

10th - AP Language or Honors English, AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

11th - AP Language, ​AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

 

8th - 12th grade

AP Art

AP Art History

AP Comparative Government

AP Computer Science

AP Economics (Grades 9-12)

AP Environmental Science

AP Human Geography

AP Music Theory

AP Physics C (must be enrolled in AP Calculus AB or higher and must also be enrolled in Honors Physics I or higher)

AP Psychology

AP Statistics (must be enrolled in Pre-Calculus or higher)

 

ETA:

Is he interested in the USA Computing Olympiad?

http://usaco.org/index.php

BASIS pushes their students very hard to accelerate. It is an open enrollment charter school but they weed out more than half of the students due to the intensity. They graduate around 45 students per year at each campus I believe. I would follow the BASIS way only for smart students that are also go-getters/high achievers.

[LisaKinVA]

With my own students (homeschooling) and at our local public school (plus my youngest), those heading  into the sciences often have many science credits.  They take more than one course per year, of course.

 

Those not heading into the sciences just do the basics - not even getting up to the DE courses.  <SNIP>

 

There are different levels out there (even at colleges) pending where one goes and what one does.

^Yup^

 

Currently, I'm working with three math/science adept kids (youngest are still more inclined to play).  My 6th grade son completed all three MS-level sciences last year (Life, Physical and Earth/Space).  He's doing HS-level Chemistry this year, and probably a HS level Biology and HS level Conceptual Physics all before he enters high school.  That said, I can see my Blondie following a less science-intense path -- because she is just not motivated.  I can only push so much, and it is still more important to me that she enjoy school to a degree.  It's not a competition -- although, I do hope she becomes more education-minded as she grows up. And, that will be perfectly fine.  

[LisaKinVA]

 

 

Most states require their state schools accept their cc credits.  It does not mean that cc/DE course was adequate unfortunately.  Many students find this out when they leave our school and get into their college class.

 

 

 

While this is true -- there is a difference between granting credit and actually replacing a course.

 

In our case, the AP/DE may yield credit, but *only* elective credit.  It doesn't actually count towards the major.  So, you can take 6 hours of Chemistry 101/102 -- and get 6 hours of elective credit, and still take the Uni's Chemistry 101-102 (this is mostly true if your major *requires* Chemistry 101-102).  If you took the CC Chemistry and you major in Linguistics...you will most likely get the 6 hours of credit for science.

 

It's just dependent upon the school, your intended major, the CC you attend...such fun!

[MarkT]

On the Pre-AP classes, I was over at the College Board website, and they actually have a "Pre-AP" course section.  My guess, is that this is another "money-making" opportunity.  Who knows, they may start requiring that in order to offer the AP courses, you have to also offer the Pre-AP courses... but that's my cynical side really coming to bear.

Be Cynical

 

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/preap/index.html

 

Is promoting their SpringBoard school products and other services.

 

but it does have this statement:

"

The College Board strongly believes that all students should have access to preparation for AP and other challenging courses, and that Pre-AP teaching strategies should be reflected in all courses taken by students prior to their enrollment in AP. The College Board discourages using "Pre-AP" in the title of locally designed courses and listing these courses on a student's transcript, because there is no one fixed or mandated Pre-AP curriculum that students must take to prepare for AP and other challenging coursework. Rather than using Pre-AP in course titles, the College Board recommends the adoption of more comprehensive Pre-AP programs that work across grade levels and subject areas to prepare the full diversity of a school's student population for AP and college.

"

[MarkT]

That's what my husband says.  What's the point of your entire last two years being all AP?  .......my dh sees the community college as such a useful, affordable, reasonable route....one can see why...here I am trying to figure out all this AP and testing craziness.  Option B is just two years of high school, (utilizing a strong rigorous online course load) and then viola...CC!

If you have a fairly large comprehensive CC with good transfer stats (we do here) then this is certainly an option but that is more expensive than taking AP classes at an Online Public charter such as K12 or Connections Academy.  If you are doing everything at private online AP providers then the CC may actually be cheaper. Personally I need that money for my student's college tuition not HS.

[Arcadia]

. I would follow the BASIS way only for smart students that are also go-getters/high achievers.

Basis Silicon Valley is local to me and OP and is a private school. It is probably a lot nearer to me though. If it is near enough to OP, she can call and ask for vacancies for taking the AP exams there.

One of the private school bus route stops very near my home so I have neighbors with kids there.

[MarkT]

Basis Silicon Valley is local to me and OP and is a private school. It is probably a lot nearer to me though. If it is near enough to OP, she can call and ask for vacancies for taking the AP exams there.

Must be new.  I live near the original AZ BASIS public charters and know students that go there and also students that "burned-out" from there. They are all good/smart students in my book.

[...................]

Basis SV's suggested schedule from their website. (You can do the permutations and combinations :) )

 

8th - AP World History

9th - AP U.S. Government, Biology, AP Science (Chemistry or Physics I)

10th - AP Language or Honors English, AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

11th - AP Language, ​AP Science (Biology, Chemistry or Physics II)

 

8th - 12th grade

AP Art

AP Art History

AP Comparative Government

AP Computer Science

AP Economics (Grades 9-12)

AP Environmental Science

AP Human Geography

AP Music Theory

AP Physics C (must be enrolled in AP Calculus AB or higher and must also be enrolled in Honors Physics I or higher)

AP Psychology

AP Statistics (must be enrolled in Pre-Calculus or higher)

 

ETA:

Is he interested in the USA Computing Olympiad?

http://usaco.org/index.php

Yep, some kids from our church go to Basis.  One of them will graduate with something like 12 AP classes.  We can't compare to that.  But apparently it is do-able...

 

BUT Thank you so much for the computing olympiad link!

[...................]

If you have a fairly large comprehensive CC with good transfer stats (we do here) then this is certainly an option but that is more expensive than taking AP classes at an Online Public charter such as K12 or Connections Academy. If you are doing everything at private online AP providers then the CC much actually be cheaper. Personally I need that money for my student's college tuition not HS.

You can't just tAke courses from an online charter unless you are a full time full fledged charter school student, including all the hoops that requires...we have always been private so yes CC for us saves money, also it is less expensive than two years at the university.

[Dmmetler]

If you have enough bio (and chem) as a middle schooler, then yes, you could do just AP on the high school transcript. i can see that being a lot more likely for homeschoolers or selective public/private schools. A lot of people on this board seem to do exactly that.

 

The PS district we're zoned into barely does much science at all before high school, with a lot of the focus being on teaching writing and critical reading skills, plus the specifics required on the tests. Only offering AP as the expected course for college bound students leads to the AP class being spoon feeding, and a lot of kids finding themselves unprepared for college science if they have to take the classes, since a school that takes AP credit will push the kids into 2000 level classes, and a school that doesn't starts their 1000 level expecting that foundation. My DD's bio mentor is at a college with a big nursing program, and is pushing for requiring placement exams for biology because so many local kids come in with AP scores of 3+ (admittedly, they see few 5's) and end up really, really struggling in general biology. They simply don't have the science background and skills needed.

[EKS]

It's a way to teach an AP course over two years instead of one.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

It's a way to teach an AP course over two years instead of one.  

 

Now see this makes a lot of sense to me.  It seems ridiculous to try to cram all of the AP Biology material into one year. But to do two years - Biology then Advanced Biology followed by the AP test, yeah.  That could definitely work.

[EKS]

Now see this makes a lot of sense to me.  It seems ridiculous to try to cram all of the AP Biology material into one year. But to do two years - Biology then Advanced Biology followed by the AP test, yeah.  That could definitely work.

 

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also makes one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a long time.

[creekland]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

 

For Chemistry and Physics I suspect it works this way at our school since they divide the topics up over two years, but not for Bio.

 

For Bio the entire high school course is taught in our 10th grade class.  It is followed up by our state Keystone test that students need to pass in order to graduate.  That's the most difficult of our state tests BTW.

 

In our DE Bio, they start back at the beginning and go deeper into the subject.  They don't cover new topics.  Students not heading into a Bio field don't need the deeper material to understand the basics.   Those wanting deeper get it.

 

Then too, middle son's Research U Bio 101 started with the assumption that kids had an AP/DE level course and went even deeper - pretty much from the start.

 

They were three separate courses - only the depth changed - not the topics.

[...................]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material. So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying. This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy. Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

Agreed, clearly AP is now the norm, and the goal is to funnel as many kids into it as possible. Maybe it's a good thing, since more students are being pushed farther, yet more slowly.

[MarkT]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

for a high school senior college pacing may be helpful but there are 14-15 yo students taking AP - most don't have the maturity for that pace (I certainly did not at that age) - I also believe the retention of material from the year long pace is better 

 

transitioning my DS 15 to study more independently is an ongoing project!

[EKS]

for a high school senior college pacing may be helpful but there are 14-15 yo students taking AP - most don't have the maturity for that pace (I certainly did not at that age) - I also believe the retention of material from the year long pace is better 

 

transitioning my DS 15 to study more independently is an ongoing project!

 

I agree--but it's also not being honest to call the courses "college equivalent."

[SoCal_Bear]

FWIW, my two cents is that the school is probably using this path to improve AP test score outcomes of their students by going this route.

 

The local high performing high school by me utilizes this route by going a trimester year. So you can do 2 trimesters of the bio, then 2 trimesters AP bio later. Same with Chem and then AP Chem. and still fit 4 courses in under a three year period plus fit in a physics sequence as well.

 

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Pre-AP is actually a College Board idea-sort of...

 

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/preap/index.html

 

it seems that schools are misunderstanding and misusing it.  It also seems that AP courses now require so much background knowledge that kids aren't actually being given that background knowledge and skill in their middle/early high school years.  But--if a school had a pre-req for a class I'd think long and hard about asking for an exception if I hadn't covered the material already since they probably expect you know the contents of the pre-req and teach accordingly.

 

FWIW-eaons ago when I was in high school we were required to complete a basic science course before taking the advanced version.  We didn't technically have "AP" science but for Biology we we on to Anatomy and Physiology, for Chem onto Organic Chem, etc.

 

I also think that colleges are a bit ridiculous in thinking all kids will have taken all 3 major branches of science.  In some IB programs you focus your study on one or two in preparation for those IB exams-after a taking a year of general science (covering all 3).  Anecdotally, my niece is currently attending a large university that list all 3 as required lab sciences in high school but she didn't have all 3 and was admitted ED with solid scores and GPA but nothing spectacular out of a public school.

[Grantmom]

If it covers the same material, though, and just goes deeper, do you think it is possible that an older, motivated student, would be able to do the AP version without an intro course?  I mean, it seems to me that it might take more time and study but that it would be doable and more efficient.  I don't know, I am just thinking out loud here.

[Chrysalis Academy]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

 

Well, yes, but I can't call a class I do at home AP anyway.  But if my goal is to have a student score highly on the AP exam, I might take this path. I suspect she would learn and retain a lot more of the actual content this way, too.  Which is actually my primary goal. I feel like that gets lost in all this stress about AP classes, exams, transcripts, and college prep.

 

(This isn't directed at you, Kai, or at any of the posters on this thread - it's just an intense frustration I feel when I wade into this whole mess, especially with respect to UC admissions, a-g courses, etc.)

 

Having an AP course to list on your transcript, and getting a 4 or 5 on the AP exam are two separate, and potentially uncorrelated, things, right? A student could take an AP course but still not pass the AP exam, in which case I can't imagine that having taken the class will do them a lot of good in admissions.  Or they can sit for an AP exam, having self-studied, rather than having taken an AP class,  Right?  This is how I thought it worked, but if I'm wrong please enlighten me.

[Grantmom]

What is frustrating about it to you?  That you feel like they are just learning for the test and not for knowledge and retention?

[EKS]

Well, yes, but I can't call a class I do at home AP anyway.  But if my goal is to have a student score highly on the AP exam, I might take this path. I suspect she would learn and retain a lot more of the actual content this way, too.  Which is actually my primary goal. I feel like that gets lost in all this stress about AP classes, exams, transcripts, and college prep.

 

(This isn't directed at you, Kai, or at any of the posters on this thread - it's just an intense frustration I feel when I wade into this whole mess, especially with respect to UC admissions, a-g courses, etc.)

 

Having an AP course to list on your transcript, and getting a 4 or 5 on the AP exam are two separate, and potentially uncorrelated, things, right? A student could take an AP course but still not pass the AP exam, in which case I can't imagine that having taken the class will do them a lot of good in admissions.  Or they can sit for an AP exam, having self-studied, rather than having taken an AP class,  Right?  This is how I thought it worked, but if I'm wrong please enlighten me.

 

If you really want to, you can get your homegrown AP course syllabus approved by the College Board, and then you can call it AP.  But, yes, you can take any AP exam you want without actually taking the course.

 

As for taking an AP course without the exam, seniors in b&m schools do this all the time--meaning that they have AP courses listed on their transcript and they get into colleges without the colleges ever seeing the exam scores, as they come out after school lets out.

[Chrysalis Academy]

What is frustrating about it to you?  That you feel like they are just learning for the test and not for knowledge and retention?

 

Yes. I feel like the classes try to cover way too much information, at what can only be a superficial level, and that the focus is on having a good looking transcript and high test scores rather than on learning.  I just took a look at the AP Biology course description on UC Scout.  They have 11 units with 69 lessons, covering all of biology.  I have a really hard time believing a high school student can master all of biology in one year.  Or even that it's a good idea to try.

 

Add in the fact that UC only counts a class as college prep if it has gone through an extra hoop of getting a-g approval. I just feel like the actual students are getting lost in all this.  And I can't help feeling that economics is driving this a lot more than the desire to provide a quality education.

 

Again, not directed at anyone here.  I've been feeling increasingly convinced that the whole higher education system is broken, including the on-ramp.  Which is depressing when you are preparing children to enter it.  Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread or get into a meta-discussion about college prep.

[angela in ohio]

I am baffled by the AP courses today, particularly in the sciences. Why repeat courses? Why not do DE instead? I personally think there are too many AP courses today. If everything is AP, why not just go straight to community college?

 

Some students don't live near a CC, some can't fit CC classes in their schedule because of the way the HS schedules classes, some parents don't want their dc on a CC campus.... I could go on; there are many reasons. Most importantly, at some schools, AP is more difficult than a DE course.

 

As to the original question.... personally, we went the DE route, because there aren't AP courses available here. It isn't ideal. Dd took Honors Chem at the local PS and Honors Physics at home, then she started into her DE courses. She only took high school level Bio, because it isn't necessary for her to go further in it.

 

I think there are huge differences in AP level courses, and so it is hard to compare. At some schools, they are glorified high school courses and students do poorly if they even take the AP test. At some schools, they are rigorous courses at the level of a competitive four-year university course and students score 5s on the test. The former would obviously not require and preparation, because it IS a high school level course with AP slapped on it. The latter would usually require a high school level course first.

[...................]

Yes. I feel like the classes try to cover way too much information, at what can only be a superficial level, and that the focus is on having a good looking transcript and high test scores rather than on learning.  I just took a look at the AP Biology course description on UC Scout.  They have 11 units with 69 lessons, covering all of biology.  I have a really hard time believing a high school student can master all of biology in one year.  Or even that it's a good idea to try.

 

Add in the fact that UC only counts a class as college prep if it has gone through an extra hoop of getting a-g approval. I just feel like the actual students are getting lost in all this.  And I can't help feeling that economics is driving this a lot more than the desire to provide a quality education.

 

Again, not directed at anyone here.  I've been feeling increasingly convinced that the whole higher education system is broken, including the on-ramp.  Which is depressing when you are preparing children to enter it.  Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread or get into a meta-discussion about college prep.

I share your frustration 100%.  I feel like, all these years we have NEVER taught to the test.  Even the years we have used school-in-a-box, it was because there were many factors in the box that we wanted ds to learn,a nd he was truly excited to learn from said boxed curriculum.  Yes, there was a small part of me that signed him up for Calvert, to learn "testing and study skills" and to be graded by an outside teacher, but due to our son's upbringing as an interested, thinking person, his way of studying is STILL not study-for-the-test!  He loves to actually read all his textbooks, he does do the assignments, but then he aces the tests because he truly was interested in the material.  Even though it required actual studying and actual flashcards, there was true interest.

 

If you push the kids too far they will just be cramming and cramming and cramming.  They will not truly be learning a body of knowledge that interests them and that will stick with them.  This breaks my heart so much and makes me want to just forgot the whole a-g thing, and all the stupid hoops.  I feel like, if we want, we can buy TWO whole more years of my son truly enjoying the learning process for the sake of learning, and then just enroll in community college...and maybe if he's ready, he will continue this love of learning, rather than start to be an AP Factory kid.  In my mind, that is now what I am calling some fo the kids in my aquaintance.  They don't even know what they are intereste din.  THey don't know what they love.  They don't know what major they want to pursue.  THey study after church, between "dead" moments at Sunday School, they are very stressed out.  If you talk to them, they will tell you they are taking 6 AP courses in one year.  But they don't talk about what they love.  Scary.  I don't want that for my kid..