Dyslexia and mandarin as a second language

[displace]

I've heard how hard learning a second language can be for dyslexics. I assume it's because of the reading and writing involved. Would this be different for mandarin then?

 

We're currently just casually watching and discussing salsa Spanish but the wheels are turning...

[PeterPan]

I think anything you do *conversationally* will be fine.  To me it's more a question of where the best place is to put your time.  Our psych said the golden number is 90 minutes of LA a day.  Once you do 90 min of LA, 30 min of math, some science, some history, some PE, do you really have time for the rest?  Bodywork, OT, typing, these things are also important.  There's just only so much time in the day.  

 

But you know, if you want to throw on language dvds after your work is done for the day, cool.  You can do anything you want as long as the important stuff gets done.  

[PeterPan]

And no, it's not going to be the reading and writing.  Dyslexia will usually have low word retrieval, so he'll study and study and study the words and not be able to pull them out.  It's why you're wise to go conversational.  I've thought about putting on some chinese tapes I have, just to let him work on the tones.  (He has no tune when he sings.)  Retrieval is helped by having the words linked in the brain, so the more he has a context, a scenario, a use, the better.  In fact Pudewa says give up and send 'em to the country for a year in high school and be done with it.  

 

My dd *didn't* get a dyslexia label but has low word retrieval like a dyslexic, and learning a language is HORRIBLE for her.  If I could get her immersed, it would be SO much better.  She has a great accent (we worked on languages for years), understands the grammar, just cna't process quickly and retrieve the words.  She works 2-3 times harder than everyone else and STILL barely got a B on her final.  Seriously.  Like a very bright dc with a terrific IQ, a dc the teacher enjoys having in class.  And supposedly no language processing disability, lol.

 

My understanding is the dyslexia label is your get out of language free card.  I intend to use it on ds.  We just have more important things to focus on.  

[Erin]

It's not the reading and writing that are the issue for us.  In fact, if anything, the reading/writing part is probably what makes the most sense for him.  
Buck is completely thrown by the language, not the input/output.  

 

Latin seems to be the best for us as it's most closely tied to English.  There are enough Latin roots in English words that he can make the connections and it's logical.  But if there weren't those pegs to hang the new info on?  (We've tried Spanish, for example.  No dice)  It just blows his mind and he can't retain anything.  

 

If Mandarin is something several people are speaking in his real-world, you might have luck.  But if it's learned in a vacuum?  I think it's probably going to be an exercise in frustration.

[Lecka]

I think you could try if he wants to, or if he has a special interest in it for any reason (liking a movie or a book).  You can see how it goes.  He does not have to do any certain level to be exposed and learn something new about another language and culture. 

 

I think it is too general, too, to say one thing or another will be too hard.  It seems like it varies so much by child, with dyslexia. 

 

And if he does like it -- it might be something where you could work it into OT practice!  We had trouble with my son, b/c a LOT of the fun extra practice things she liked to have kids do to work on skills, where it did not have to be any one certain thing, but any one of a long list of things would be good...... and my son was just not into any of them, they were all too much like "this stuff I am bad at."  It would have been great for him to have an interest where maybe he wanted to copy things or draw or work on copying lines in a certain order. 

 

If he thinks it is cool, or you think it is really cool and maybe you could do it, with him along for the ride a little, I think it would be great.  Like -- I cook, my kids help, but they are exposed to so much, but the pressure is not on them to be the ones doing every step and every bit of planning.  If you are drawn to it -- I think it is a great way to be a role model and also a way to take the pressure off. 

 

I am really into trying to have personal, independent, vaguely educational hobbies/interests of my own ----- I can be interested in something, I don't have to pressure my kids to be into something in order for me to do it.

 

But if he likes it -- that would be really awesome. 

 

But I do think, overall, you can do it if you want, he can work on his own level and be exposed to different things.  He might like the characters, he might like how phrases translate differently, he might like learning about how a phrase came to be a phrase (if there is a story or historical thing that the phrase came from) and different things like that, that could all be a part of language study, but not necessarily be a strict class. 

 

If it is something where in your area, you could easily do field trips or go to a store that used Chinese writing, that could be fun, too. 

 

I think there are so many possibilities. 

 

I would not count on it being easier than a language with letters, and I would worry about him having good handwriting or easily picking up any handwriting, but I don't think those are reasons not to do some stuff with a young child. 

 

Edit:  For full disclosure, I was a Chinese major in college and was an exchange student in China and lived in China for 18 months.  I love the language, it is so interesting.  I have gotten (more in the past) a lot of hassle from my family for not doing more with my kids.  But my oldest son had fairly severe speech articulation problems when he was younger, and my younger son has a delay in expressive and receptive language.  It is just not a priority I have for them, and I do not think it would be enjoyable.  If my daughter was an only child -- I would probably be more on this.

 

There are so many interesting stories about why a certain character is written in a certain way, and so many phrases that come from a story or event.  It is so, so interesting.  I can see a gifted child being really interested in that kind of thing.  I would definitely try that kind of thing, and if it whets his interest, maybe he will get into it. 

 

But if he is struggling to memorize English phonograms I would not add another demand for memorizing.  But some things might be easier for him to pick up, and other things might be things that are very interesting and language-related, without being "learn the language as if you were in a high school or college class." 

 

With a quick google -- you could look at a book like The Pet Dragon by Christoph Niemann and see if he is into it.  And if he is -- you could get a book that tells how to properly write some of those characters, if he wants to learn any of them. 

 

My First Book of Chinese Calligraphy by Guillaume Olive looks really interesting/educational, too.  From the preview -- I would not use it with my age of kids, it looks too dense with information, but if your son is into this kind of thing, it looks really cool to me.  Or if you are into it, lol.  I would not try really hard to make him be into it if it is not seeming to draw him in, though.  There will be something that draws him in!  With my kids it is not really the things I am drawn too, though.  They are just their own people so much. 

[maize]

There is some intriguing evidence that dyslexia in native Chinese speakers involves different areas of the brain than dyslexia in native speakers/readers of alphabetic languages, possibly indicating that a child who struggles with an alphabetic language could find Chinese characters easier to work with. http://www.ugc.edu.hk/rgc/rgcnews18/eng/04.htm

[OneStepAtATime]

maize's link is very interesting....

 

We are facing issues with learning a foreign language, too.  And for most of the reasons listed upthread.

 

Conversational language learning doesn't seem impossible at all.  Very doable so far.  But when even learning to read/write/spell in your native tongue takes years of very targeted systematic practice and review, it can be VERY hard to then take all those things that were never automatic, make them automatic (as much as possible) then say "Well, we need to now unlearn some of that for this other language.  But please don't forget how to do it for your native tongue."  DD wants to learn Spanish.  She is still remediating English.  I have agreed we will start with Conversational Spanish at this point and hopefully further down the line in remediation of English we can incorporate a more traditional Spanish program.  

 

DS, on the other hand, may not ever be able to do this.  For example, he struggles to distinguish "e" and "i", and even "o" and "u" the short vowel sounds, in many words.  We work so hard on this every week.  He simply does not always hear the difference even though his hearing is fine.  It is the processing of those sounds that seem to be at issue.  He also sometimes struggles with switching between the soft and hard "c" sound even though he knows when to use which one.  In just reading he has to stop and force his brain to use it correctly if he has just used the other one.  He cannot switch automatically.  

 

Now lets say we work on those things for a couple more years, he completes remediation, he is reading on grade level and his issues seem to finally be over.  I now introduce a foreign language like Spanish where the pronunciation rules are frequently different.  He has to start over.  He has to begin again.  How much time do we spend on this?  Will it require the tons and tons of work we did before?  He has so many other subjects to cover.  Can we devote that much time and effort to a foreign language as well as all the other subjects he needs to cover?  Will that muck up what he worked so hard to achieve in his native tongue?  For some dyslexics it can.  For others it simply isn't even possible.  Some have very few problems.  Hard to know until you try, so we will try.  Spanish, especially where we live, is a huge help in getting a job and is part of his heritage.  But I do deeply worry how successful it will be.

 

DS did want to learn Latin, by the way and we have made some inroads into that.  We have to go VEEEEERY slowly, though, and sometimes the pronunciations mess him up when we do Barton.  Still, we are moving through a bit at a time....Latin HAS helped with spelling and vocabulary, as well as some of the Greek he has been exposed to, since so much of our language is based on those two languages.

[Heathermomster]

I've heard how hard learning a second language can be for dyslexics. I assume it's because of the reading and writing involved. Would this be different for mandarin then?

 

We're currently just casually watching and discussing salsa Spanish but the wheels are turning...

My take with a second language and the dyslexic learner was to start early and engage the conversational aspects of the language first.  Alongside the conversation, use early primers and native grammar stage materials.  If your DS is a strong visual learner, Mandarin might suit him.  You may need to hop over to the high school board and ask about materials.  TokyoMarie has many interesting thoughts about second languages and teaching approaches.

 

Your child is very young.  I cannot think of a reason NOT to study Mandarin.  It can be fun, and you could pursue the cutural angle such as food, art, literature, fairy tales, and daily living. 

[Laura Corin]

There is some intriguing evidence that dyslexia in native Chinese speakers involves different areas of the brain than dyslexia in native speakers/readers of alphabetic languages, possibly indicating that a child who struggles with an alphabetic language could find Chinese characters easier to work with. http://www.ugc.edu.hk/rgc/rgcnews18/eng/04.htm

 

Calvin is not dyslexic - he has/had coordination delays and low motor memory.  For a long time he drew each English letter afresh rather than writing automatically.

 

He started writing Chinese a few years after English, and had much less of a problem with Chinese characters than he did with the Latin alphabet.  I don't know if this is to do with being a bit older or the different nature of the written language.

 

L

[Heathermomster]

Calvin is not dyslexic - he has/had coordination delays and low motor memory.  For a long time he drew each English letter afresh rather than writing automatically.

 

He started writing Chinese a few years after English, and had much less of a problem with Chinese characters than he did with the Latin alphabet.  I don't know if this is to do with being a bit older or the different nature of the written language.

 

L

What materials do you use to teach Mandarin?  Is there a particular curriculum that you prefer?

[OneStepAtATime]

There is some intriguing evidence that dyslexia in native Chinese speakers involves different areas of the brain than dyslexia in native speakers/readers of alphabetic languages, possibly indicating that a child who struggles with an alphabetic language could find Chinese characters easier to work with. http://www.ugc.edu.hk/rgc/rgcnews18/eng/04.htm

 

 

My take with a second language and the dyslexic learner was to start early and engage the conversational aspects of the language first.  Alongside the conversation, use early primers and native grammar stage materials.  If your DS is a strong visual learner, Mandarin might suit him.  You may need to hop over to the high school board and ask about materials.  TokyoMarie has many interesting thoughts about second languages and teaching approaches.

 

Your child is very young.  I cannot think of a reason NOT to study Mandarin.  It can be fun, and you could pursue the cutural angle such as food, art, literature, fairy tales, and daily living. 

 

 

Calvin is not dyslexic - he has/had coordination delays and low motor memory.  For a long time he drew each English letter afresh rather than writing automatically.

 

He started writing Chinese a few years after English, and had much less of a problem with Chinese characters than he did with the Latin alphabet.  I don't know if this is to do with being a bit older or the different nature of the written language.

 

L

I am very interested in this.  DS wants to learn many languages and his struggles hurt him emotionally.  Perhaps starting with something like Mandarin Chinese might be more feasible, give him a useful skill and boost his emotional state, too.

 

OP I agree with others on general principals, your child is young.  If you start with a conversational tack, go slowly, incorporate a lot of fun activities, it might be a great way to get your child into a foreign language.

[geodob]

Learning Mandarin can be confusing for Dyslexics with a phonetic difficulty?

As most often they find that they aren't Dyslexic with Mandarin?

 

Mandarin is an Orthographic language, which we might understand like 'Sight Words'.

Phonemes aren't involved.

So that Mandarin is a more natural language for them.

Which reframes their idea of having a 'Disorder' with written language?

As it has disappeared with Mandarin.

Which has been replaced by a feeling of strength in their written language abilities.

As they observe Phonetic learners, struggling with Mandarin.

 

But with the Chinese economy about to become the world's largest economy in not too many years?

From a future professional perspective?

Learning Mandarin provides a great future professional advantage.

[Heathermomster]

Better Chinese

Free Lessons

Speak Mandarin

 

 

[Matryoshka]

More interesting research:

 

Can Learning Japanese or Chinese Help Dyslexia

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/sep/23/research.highereducation2

 

http://boingboing.net/2008/04/09/dylexia-in-alphabeti.html

 

http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2008/04/23/chinese-and-western-dyslexics/

[Laura Corin]

What materials do you use to teach Mandarin?  Is there a particular curriculum that you prefer?

We used a tutor and she used materials leading to the UK GCSE exam.  Previous to that, we used a variety of materials available in China.  I do speak Chinese, but I didn't feel capable of teaching it.

 

L

[Lecka]

I used Chinese Primer in college.  Um, I would describe it as difficult, but the grammar is so, so interesting.  Just if you were curious :)

[wapiti]

Interesting...  dd13 is considering learning Mandarin in high school.  Maybe I should encourage her?  She is bored with Spanish.  Latin is her other choice, thanks to the bit we did while homeschooling.  We attended an open house yesterday and I talked with the Latin teachers - their impression is that the Mandarin course (I don't know what it is based on) is not more difficult than the Latin course they offer (Cambridge).  Dd is not dyslexic and has no phonemic issues, though she is a rather visual-spatial learner (and had her share of vision issues in the past - tracking mostly).  Incidentally, there was a brochure on the table for the Latin club recommending it for students with LDs - I wish I had written down the link.

[beishan]

 

He started writing Chinese a few years after English, and had much less of a problem with Chinese characters than he did with the Latin alphabet.  I don't know if this is to do with being a bit older or the different nature of the written language.

 

L

 

I think age plays a big role on Chinese handwriting. Chinese characters require more fine motor skills than forming English letters. My son is Chinese English bilingual. He had hard time with English reading at 1st grade but finally caught up by 3rd grade. He started to learn Chinese characters at 1st grade. His word formation at 1st grade was bad. The rule of Chinese strokes are more strict than English letters and Chinese word formation also involves with position and orders of each word components. I could see my son drew all components of certain word but not placing them in right position or drew them in relative proper sizes to form a correct Chinese character even he was looking at the word and tried to copy it. Two years later, he is at 3rd grade. Now he did his weekly Chinese new words practice by himself. Most of time, he can copy the words quite well now (with proper size and position) and Chinese handwriting becomes neat and clean.

[Laura Corin]

Interesting...  dd13 is considering learning Mandarin in high school.  Maybe I should encourage her?  She is bored with Spanish.  Latin is her other choice, thanks to the bit we did while homeschooling.  We attended an open house yesterday and I talked with the Latin teachers - their impression is that the Mandarin course (I don't know what it is based on) is not more difficult than the Latin course they offer (Cambridge).  

 

I can tell you what happened in the UK when Mandarin was introduced as a possibility for GCSE (public exams taken at age 16).  Initially, many parents were very enthusiastic about it.  Then the grades started to come in, and parents ran scared, because getting to a decent level in Mandarin takes a lot more work than, for example, Spanish or even Latin.

 

L

[wapiti]

I can tell you what happened in the UK when Mandarin was introduced as a possibility for GCSE (public exams taken at age 16).  Initially, many parents were very enthusiastic about it.  Then the grades started to come in, and parents ran scared, because getting to a decent level in Mandarin takes a lot more work than, for example, Spanish or even Latin.

 

L

 

Thanks Laura!

 

I just looked up the program in the school's on-line bookstore - it's called Discovering Chinese.  Level 1, text and workbook, for the first year and Level 3 for the second year.  It's always possible that additional resources are involved that are not purchased.  Anyone hear of Discovering Chinese?  (LOL I suppose if I really want to know I should post this on the high school board)

[displace]

I think anything you do *conversationally* will be fine.  To me it's more a question of where the best place is to put your time.  Our psych said the golden number is 90 minutes of LA a day.  Once you do 90 min of LA, 30 min of math, some science, some history, some PE, do you really have time for the rest?  Bodywork, OT, typing, these things are also important.  There's just only so much time in the day.  

 

But you know, if you want to throw on language dvds after your work is done for the day, cool.  You can do anything you want as long as the important stuff gets done.  

 

That is true about all the other things in the day.  We need to incorporate OT and PT into our day, and I haven't even really been doing reading as I just ordered Barton so I know our schedule will become even more important.  Spanish is just watching on TV during breakfast, and I was thinking of reviewing a Spanish word a day to increase vocab (orally).  DH speaks fluently so it makes the most sense, though I'm more comfortable in French.  I guess we probably couldn't do both at this time just because a lot of the day is full already.  I'd like to make history more official but that may be just a project a week at this point (or less) and just listening during the day. 

[displace]

 

 

My understanding is the dyslexia label is your get out of language free card.  I intend to use it on ds.  We just have more important things to focus on.  

 

Thanks for your experience with your dd.  I'm conflicted because I know younger is better with languages and I love travelling and feel learning more than one language is of benefit in many situations professionally and personally.  But, when most of the day is spent on remediation and we may have a long hard road ahead of us, maybe a 2nd language shouldn't take priority.

 

[displace]

I think you could try if he wants to, or if he has a special interest in it for any reason (liking a movie or a book).  You can see how it goes.  He does not have to do any certain level to be exposed and learn something new about another language and culture. 

 

Thanks for all your recs!  I should do this, just expose and let him explore, and great ideas about incorporating it into fine motor practice! 

[displace]

There is some intriguing evidence that dyslexia in native Chinese speakers involves different areas of the brain than dyslexia in native speakers/readers of alphabetic languages, possibly indicating that a child who struggles with an alphabetic language could find Chinese characters easier to work with. http://www.ugc.edu.hk/rgc/rgcnews18/eng/04.htm

 

This was super interesting!  It may sway me to look into it.  Problem is I don't speak any Mandarin or read it so we'd be learning it together, but I always found it interesting to see how the characters tell little stories sometimes. 

 

[displace]

maize's link is very interesting....

 

We are facing issues with learning a foreign language, too.  And for most of the reasons listed upthread.

 

Conversational language learning doesn't seem impossible at all.

I think this is an important point (also stated upthread).  And my goal for education I guess is more conversational anyway.  If the interest is there in DS as he matures we could look into reading/writing.  We could also/instead do sign language I guess?

[displace]

Learning Mandarin can be confusing for Dyslexics with a phonetic difficulty?

As most often they find that they aren't Dyslexic with Mandarin?

 

Mandarin is an Orthographic language, which we might understand like 'Sight Words'.

Phonemes aren't involved.

So that Mandarin is a more natural language for them.

Which reframes their idea of having a 'Disorder' with written language?

As it has disappeared with Mandarin.

Which has been replaced by a feeling of strength in their written language abilities.

As they observe Phonetic learners, struggling with Mandarin.

 

But with the Chinese economy about to become the world's largest economy in not too many years?

From a future professional perspective?

Learning Mandarin provides a great future professional advantage.

 

This is thought in our family, that it would be a great professional advantage.  I hesitate as I think it may depend on one's profession.  I usually found Spanish more helpful. 

[displace]

This whole thread is making me wonder if dyslexia should be teaching letter stories for the phonemes?  I made up an elaborate story about lowercase b to help DS with his b/d reversal.  I have a tray of sand with a blue paper underneath.  It's the "beach", and the b is standing on the pier, diving into the water, dives all the way down, then comes back up for air and then goes looking for treasure.  The "b" doesn't look anything like the boy, but the path he takes.  It's been working okay.  Unfortunately a lot of the HWT little phrases aren't interesting enough for us to help with memory.  I need to make up stories for all the problem letters and numbers maybe. 

[PeterPan]

Displace, did you give him the pretest for Barton to make sure he passes?  I was just checking.  

 

Our boys are the same age, though maybe yours is on the older end of 6?  Mine is newly 6.  Anyways, for me, having btdt, my MAIN CONCERN with handwriting is motor planning, intentionality, automaticity.  Whether they have a visual picture of it in their mind is a visual memory question.  Since I *know* my ds has some visual processing issues, I'm not banking on that.  I've started back over with him in LIPS, and each letter that I introduce we're doing with LOTS of multi-sensory for the formation.  We've spent months getting the foundational strokes from EZ Write automatic, so now we're using those to do the dialogue.  

 

Geodob had a fascinating suggestion that doing sign language as you study the letters would make connections in the brain between motor planning and language.  Don't know, but it was interesting.  I printed off a page of the hand pictures of the ASL for the letters and thought we could use it as part of our mixture if it seems useful.

 

I don't know.  I'm a lot less concerned about being entertaining than I am about the skills.  My ds is over the top kinesthetic, so the more I can make something kinesthetic, the better.  Today I had his toy plastic animals using their sounds (/i/, /o/, /oo/ for LIPS) to draw him in to the lesson.  It's not like we're devoid of fun.  Really though, this is therapy and it's not gonna be pretty.  Losing focus doesn't make it any better.  Progress is what makes it better.  Reading is what's fun, not this stage.

 

I was BLOWN AWAY by how hard this was for him today.  http://www.schoolmoves.com/product/butterfly-8s-rapid-naming-dots/  I made the dot pages myself, no biggee, on my mac, printed, and put them in a sheet protector.  Very challenging, so when he was done with the page I gave him a sticker.  

 

Stay focused, that's my only advice.  You can introduce a language up until 8, 9, or even 10 and still get a flawless accent.  It's MUCH more important that you build his foundational skills like reading, writing automaticity, core strength, math concepts, etc. Then take 1 hour a day to do your joy stuff.  Whatever gets done in that 1 hour is what gets done.  

 

And yes, since your dh is fluent in spanish, that would obviously be a very good choice!  Given them Saturdays together and encourage your dh to speak only spanish to him on that day.  Then during the week have Muzzy or spanish music or whatever for free time.   

[FairProspects]

Following. We have been using a Mandarin tutor for conversational language, but honestly I'm not sure ds is getting anything out of it. Word retrieval, sound retrieval, and vocab are such big issues for dyslexics that they are significant barriers to making progress in any language.

[EKS]

I've heard how hard learning a second language can be for dyslexics. I assume it's because of the reading and writing involved. Would this be different for mandarin then?

 

We're currently just casually watching and discussing salsa Spanish but the wheels are turning...

 

We went with Latin for my dyslexic son specifically because it was just reading and writing.  The real time conversational component of a spoken foreign language would have done him in.