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College admission said I can't give 1 credit for both apologia science courses

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#1 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 02:49 PM

My son did Apologia chem and adv chem last year then Apologia physics and adv physics this year. I planned to give him 1 credit for each book completed because he did the work, did the labs, did the test etc. He worked at an advanced pace to finish each book in one semester.

I spoke with a counselor at his # 1 choice and she said it needs to be a school year per course to receive 1 credit unless it's a CC course so he should receive only ½ credit per book. If I give him ½ a credit for each he will only have 3 science credits and they require 4. He did do physical science in 9th but I didn't plan on listing it as he is heading for engineering school.

What do you think? Not sure what to do now.

Edited by Quiver0f10, 24 June 2010 - 02:52 PM.


#2 2cents

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:05 PM

Heck No! Your High School-Your rules! I'd absolutely be giving full credit for each course. Just because he finished them quicker does not diminish the intent that each of those is a full course. I'd stand my ground!

#3 April in CA

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:14 PM

Hi Quiver,
Are you keeping his transcript? Is so, I would strongly consider shifting the dates of the courses a bit so that it "looks" like he took them in separate years. He definitely should get full credit for all the courses he completed, and he should not be penalized for completing them more quickly. Perhaps you could list chem and physics as taken in junior year and the advanced courses both his senior year. I assume he has taken a bio course as well? You shouldn't have to jump through such hoops, but if this college is important to your son, it might be worth it.
Blessings,
April

#4 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:23 PM

Hi Quiver,
Are you keeping his transcript? Is so, I would strongly consider shifting the dates of the courses a bit so that it "looks" like he took them in separate years. He definitely should get full credit for all the courses he completed, and he should not be penalized for completing them more quickly. Perhaps you could list chem and physics as taken in junior year and the advanced courses both his senior year. I assume he has taken a bio course as well? You shouldn't have to jump through such hoops, but if this college is important to your son, it might be worth it.
Blessings,
April


I am doing his transcript myself. I don't have grades such as 9th, 10th and so on. Instead I listed each subject area. Under science he has listed:
biology
chemistry
advanced chem
physics
avanced physics

I wonder with no dates listed how would they even know he didn't do each course over a year? Excpept that he has 5 sciences listed? Should I take one off LOL? I dont want to do anything dishonest though.

One thing she did suggest is for me to leave it as is but write a letter explaining how we used the books, what book we used and the TOC. He does have SAT II scores to back up his grades even though this school doesn't require them.

Edited by Quiver0f10, 24 June 2010 - 03:29 PM.


#5 johnandtinagilbert

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:34 PM

I am doing his transcript myself. I don't have grades such as 9th, 10th and so on. Instead I listed each subject area. Under science he has listed:
biology
chemistry
advanced chem
physics
avanced physics

I wonder with no dates listed how would they even know he didn't do each course over a year? Excpept that he has 5 sciences listed? Should I take one off LOL? I dont want to do anything dishonest though.

One thing she did suggest is for me to leave it as is but write a letter explaining how we used the books, what book we used and the TOC. He does have SAT II scores to back up his grades even though this school doesn't require them.

List them as elective credits and assign one credit each as classes he took during the 2009-2010 school year. Simply assign the grades per quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) and not give exact dates.

#6 Photo Ninja

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:02 PM

I wonder if the counselor is not informed.

Under her requirements, a high school student would not be allowed to take any summer school courses because those are usually a full year course done in only a couple months.

Is there anyone else you can contact at the school to ask to clarify the policy?

#7 2cents

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:17 PM

I wonder if the counselor is not informed.

Under her requirements, a high school student would not be allowed to take any summer school courses because those are usually a full year course done in only a couple months.

Is there anyone else you can contact at the school to ask to clarify the policy?


Exactly! I personally would not alter the dates. It is what it is. He finished in an accelerated pace and credit should be given. My son did multiple sciences in a year and it was not questioned. I'm wondering why this counselor is nitpicking the transcript so much. Our counselor looked ours over but we never had to detail curriculum to that degree. I sounds like you need to talk to another counselor.

#8 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:24 PM

Exactly! I personally would not alter the dates. It is what it is. He finished in an accelerated pace and credit should be given. My son did multiple sciences in a year and it was not questioned. I'm wondering why this counselor is nitpicking the transcript so much. Our counselor looked ours over but we never had to detail curriculum to that degree. I sounds like you need to talk to another counselor.


The thing is she doesn't even have his transcript and only has my name, not my son's. I called her to ask an unrelated question and somehow we got on his science courses.

Edited to add: She was very nice and seems really helpful. I don't want to give the impression that she was unfriendly or anything.

Edited by Quiver0f10, 24 June 2010 - 04:27 PM.


#9 2cents

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:29 PM

Ahhhh...I still would list the courses as he took them. Chances are when presented with the actual transcript they probably won't even question it. I sometimes wonder if they really look at those anyway. I bet she was just confused. I wouldn't worry about it. Just document it accurately as to the time period that he completed the courses and give him the full credit. High Schoolers take accelerated courses all the time so they shouldn't question it.

#10 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:35 PM

Ahhhh...I still would list the courses as he took them. Chances are when presented with the actual transcript they probably won't even question it. I sometimes wonder if they really look at those anyway. I bet she was just confused. I wouldn't worry about it. Just document it accurately as to the time period that he completed the courses and give him the full credit. High Schoolers take accelerated courses all the time so they shouldn't question it.



Thanks. I think I am going to leave it as it is and stop worrying about it. If they ask for more documentation later I can send it in at that time.

#11 mcconnellboys

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:50 PM

These sorts of misconceptions by people are one reason why I elected to just list courses without putting a year in which they were completed. If he completed all the work in a text, completed everything that course had to offer - then he completed the course. How long it took him to do that is immaterial. It sounds to me like you have four credits for those four courses.

I'm not sure when college courses, community or otherwise, started being listed as equal to just a half year of high school, either. The level of work should be much higher than high school. My son received one high school credit for each college course completed and it is my understanding that this is the norm.

I tried not to ask questions of college counselors, because like high school counselors, they really don't have a hard and fast answer and you get a different answer from most everyone you speak with. I just tried to figure out the most advantageous way to present my transcript to get the affect I desired. I had no questions from anyone.

#12 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:25 PM

These sorts of misconceptions by people are one reason why I elected to just list courses without putting a year in which they were completed. If he completed all the work in a text, completed everything that course had to offer - then he completed the course. How long it took him to do that is immaterial. It sounds to me like you have four credits for those four courses.

I'm not sure when college courses, community or otherwise, started being listed as equal to just a half year of high school, either. The level of work should be much higher than high school. My son received one high school credit for each college course completed and it is my understanding that this is the norm.

I tried not to ask questions of college counselors, because like high school counselors, they really don't have a hard and fast answer and you get a different answer from most everyone you speak with. I just tried to figure out the most advantageous way to present my transcript to get the affect I desired. I had no questions from anyone.


I agree and this is how I do it too. However, she stressed the fact that I need completion dates by each course. None of the other colleges my kids have applied to have questioned my transcript.

#13 FloridaLisa

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:39 PM

Jean,

I wouldn't fudge the dates. I would be honest about the dates *and* the work completed. Perhaps you could also re-name the Adv. Apologia as Anatomy and Physiology, though I haven't seen the text and don't know whether that is warranted. I would also list Physical Science.

This is your science-minded son, right? List the courses on your transcript. Then, in your guidance counselor letter, you should note how ds went above and beyond the norm by completing an advanced course each year.

Lisa

#14 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 06:07 PM

Jean,

I wouldn't fudge the dates. I would be honest about the dates *and* the work completed. Perhaps you could also re-name the Adv. Apologia as Anatomy and Physiology, though I haven't seen the text and don't know whether that is warranted. I would also list Physical Science.

This is your science-minded son, right? List the courses on your transcript. Then, in your guidance counselor letter, you should note how ds went above and beyond the norm by completing an advanced course each year.

Lisa


I won't fudge the dates. I am going keep it as it is and list the courses under each subject heading. If they do question when the courses were completed or need more information, I can supply that information at that time.

#15 emubird

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 07:04 PM

There are high schools that do block scheduling, so an entire year's course gets done in one semester. As a result, there are a few kids who do 2 sciences in one year. Or 2 math courses. But they get the full year credit for each.

I'd just list the courses and let them decide what to do with it. I'd probably leave off the dates, myself. Maybe they want dates to make sure it wasn't a middle school class posing as a high school class. Or maybe she just hadn't worked in the office long and didn't know what she was talking about.

I suspect there are a lot of inexperienced people working in those offices. Two separate colleges lost my daughter's transcript. At one college, they lost it 3 times.

#16 katilac

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 07:32 PM

I would certainly list the physical science as well; it will cover the requirements in case they do fuss about the dates/credits. Sometimes you just need to let people check off their ticky boxes, y'know?

#17 mcconnellboys

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 07:32 PM

Oh, Jean, I'm so sorry. That's just rotten. I'm not sure how to handle it. Could you perhaps send them the indexes from each of the books, explaining that all this work was completed intensively? Could you show that he was spending xxxx number of hours a day on this science work? She may be thinking that he was "in class" 45-55 minutes a day when he was in fact working on science much, much more than this. Could you do a tally of total number of hours spent, perhaps, to show that his total hours warrant more than only two credits? Perhaps she would respond more favorably to that, I don't know.....

I might even try asking her how many hours of class time she considers necessary to warrant a credit of science. If she responds and you can come back immediately with a number that is four times that amount, then she shouldn't have difficulty accepting that four credits were accomplished. I'm not sure why our country wants to equate "time served" with knowledge gained, but some just can't seem to get past that....

#18 Quiver0f10

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 07:39 PM

Thank you all for the ideas and encouragement. I am feeling more confident about applying now. I was really worried there for a few.

#19 Joan in GE

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 01:48 PM

Could you show that he was spending xxxx number of hours a day on this science work? She may be thinking that he was "in class" 45-55 minutes a day when he was in fact working on science much, much more than this. Could you do a tally of total number of hours spent, perhaps, to show that his total hours warrant more than only two credits? Perhaps she would respond more favorably to that, I don't know.....


Did you keep track of his hours? Or did he have a schedule that he followed where you could calculate his hours?

As people said, block scheduling is finished in half a year and is just a matter of total number of hours, not total number of days.

My brother, who teaches high school physics, said that when they went to block scheduling, they dropped a bunch of topics! So they weren't even finishing the book. You might be able to find students they have accepted where the schools doing block scheduling if you anyone going there...

Joan

#20 OhElizabeth

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 01:59 PM

Quiver, can I bop in here and give my two cents? I evaluated transcripts at a university, so I know where she's coming from. She didn't explain it fully. There are CREDITS and then there are UNITS. The credit reflects the amount of material covered. The unit reflects the time spent. Now here's where I'm going to get nitpicky. When did he start the course, and how much time did he spend? You literally need a good sense of the number of hours. You're saying he worked extra. A credit means he covered the book. A unit means he spent 5 days a week, an hour a day (plus reasonable homework) for a year. Now schools with other systems (blocks, etc.) rearrange it different ways, but the TIME spent still ends up the same. It's called a Carnegie Unit, so google it and learn more. PE is typically 2 days a week for a year, hence 1/2 unit. Or you could do PE 4-5 days a week for a semester and give a 1/2 unit. Does that make sense? It's the amount of time, and that time can be rearranged ANY WAY YOU WANT.

So think with me. If he worked 1 1/2 hours a day instead of the usual 1 (let's just say as his baseline, then adding in some time for homework, etc.), then over the course of a year that would be *3* unit (or 1 1/2, depending on how you are designating a year, schools do it both ways). Or if he started in the summer, spent 6 months doing that first book working 1 1/2 hours a day and then did the 2nd book the 2nd 6 months of the year at 1 1/2... Do you see what I'm saying? They're looking for the amount of time. You're not going to be able to fudge those completion dates. It can be as simple as semester, but you have to mark SOMETHING. I tell you there's a lot of crock floating around about transcripts, stuff some people have gotten away with because they were applying to schools where it didn't really matter (non-selective). At your school it DOES matter, and she has told you that upfront. You scratch your head and sort it out now. I had to make some calls to homeschoolers asking them to put dates on their stuff, and it sounds like this school will too.

Now as far as the physical science, that's not legit to leave it off. He did it, so it goes on there. They decide how to mark it. If it doesn't count as high school level work to them, then they will cross it off with red ink and not even consider it. However it's not ethical to leave stuff OFF the transcript. People could to that to alter their grade profile, etc. You need to put it all on there.

I think you have one of two tracks. One, you give him 3/4 unit for each book because he started say in June, worked 6 months, and got them done at an accelerated pace. Or two, you give him 1 unit for the two because he did them in one traditional school year, and you label it as Honors Chem. You also put the Physical Science on there. Now you have 3-4 units (not credits, units) of science listed. At that point I would get him into one more science class, just for good measure. Anatomy would be good and give him another AP option, or he could take a calc-based physics class (even better).

#21 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:23 PM

Wow - now I'm totally confused. In essence what you've said could mean that a bright and eager student who did both books in one year could get one unit for both science texts combined because he did them in one year spending an hour each day on science, and at the same time, a student who struggles in science and completes the regular text - just one - in one year, but spends two hours a day on it, could get two units???

I'm glad that from the colleges I've looked at briefly, they seem to look at credits. Units don't make sense to me. :confused:

Would it be counted differently - units wise - if the student did both books one hour a day for the whole year? Would that qualify for two units?

Edited by Teachin'Mine, 25 June 2010 - 02:25 PM.


#22 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:35 PM

I'm still not the OP, but I'm still trying to understand. I googled the Carnegie Unit and got Wikipedia and this info:

"Although in Contemporary use, at least with the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, a Student Hour is 14.4 hours, because a Carnegie Unit is defined now as 240 minutes per week for 36 weeks.[2]"

Many of us use approximately 36 weeks in our home school year, so this would break down to just 4 hours per week in order to make one unit. They're basing this on the usual 50 minutes of class time allotted in high schools to each subject. Doing the book in a semester I'm sure required more than 4 hours per week, and would probably be around the 8 hour mark required to count both books as two units. No?

That 8 hours could theoretically work out to 1.5 hours per day for 4 days and 2 hours on the 5th day (which would probably be a test day).

Based on this, it's looking like two credits, and two units - unless if I'm missing something.

#23 OhElizabeth

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 03:55 PM

Teachin'Mine-The Carnegie Unit is the class time. It is assumed there will be homework. This all is a lot more fluid in a homeschool setting obviously, but the basic principle still applies. If he flies through the material because he's bright, he does NOT get double units, sorry. I took AP Chem as my first chemistry class in high school and I also took AP physics as my first physics. That is in essence what Quiver's boy did. Should I have gotten 2 units for each of those courses?? I did lots of work too... No. She defined the course and the level of difficulty. So he gets the privilege of "honors" or some such designation on his transcript and hopefully a good AP/SAT2 score. That will have to do. Ultimately it's not single numbers like that that get the student into the college but the picture of the student as a WHOLE. They're looking, not at just what he took, but what did DID with what he took, what he did AFTER that. Did he join clubs, apprentice, take another, more advanced class? The number of units/credits on your transcript doesn't matter once you get in, so long as you enter without deficiencies. It's not like this nitpicky differences are going to affect him long-term. The main thing is to translate what you're doing into something they can understand and get enough units/credits on there that he enters without deficiencies. That's what matters.

#24 ereks mom

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 04:15 PM

There are high schools that do block scheduling, so an entire year's course gets done in one semester. As a result, there are a few kids who do 2 sciences in one year. Or 2 math courses. But they get the full year credit for each.

I'd just list the courses and let them decide what to do with it. I'd probably leave off the dates, myself.


:iagree:

#25 Susan C.

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 04:27 PM

We had five science credits on ds transcript, and nothing was said. The admissions officer said, biology, chemistry, physics, I'm good. (The other two were physical and earth).

I would be very tempted to bundle the chemistry and physics each year and call them AP or honors (AP would need to be approved). It gives a higher GPA point value and would give your ds a very nice higher GPA (which comes in handy when scholarships are passed out).

#26 Quiver0f10

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 05:30 PM

Thank you. You all have given me a lot to think about.

#27 Nan in Mass

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 10:08 PM

So what happens with the courses that you complete in intensive chunks with gaps over the course of four years? Or the ones you do a short time daily over a number of years? Or the ones you do intensively for a shorter period of time? The transcript is going to look very uneven if I am forced to put end dates on the courses. I understand the concept of units and used it where it was applicable (sometimes it was not), but end dates are pretty meaningless the way we homeschool.
-Nan

#28 OhElizabeth

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 10:54 PM

Nan, I've read your posts before, so I know where you're coming from. :) I think even among homeschoolers your experience is not the norm. In the end the idea is to take the non-standard things you do and translate them into something the evaluator can understand. But the flipside is that if you put something that looks strange to the evaluator, they may CHANGE how it is marked when they do the tallies. Those tallies matter for purposes of entering without deficiencies. And not only can the red ink spill, resulting in your dc having deficiencies, but you can end up with phone calls from their office asking for further information. If, as in Quiver's case, the school ASKS for dates, she really needs to find a way to put it. Failing to put that information will not endear her to the evaluator. ;)

Quiver asked what it means if he worked 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, for a semester. Well that means he's a fast learner and worked a bit more than normal to get the book done faster. There's an expectation of homework on top of that 45-50 min. of classtime when you earn the unit. So to say he worked 2 hours means he averaged 1 1/2 lessons (and the accompanying homework) each day. At least that's what it means to me. If he did that 6 months, then he has done 1 1/2 X 6, which is 9, which is a full unit. But if he did that for 13 weeks (typical fall semester), then that's no where CLOSE, kwim? Just means it was a really easy level of chem book for the level of student. And like the others said, if you give it a more impressive name, it might actually do better for you in the long run. That might not be nice to hear, but it's why the rep from that college said what she did.

Obviously when you use methods like Nan's, Omnibus, some of these less familiar things, you have to do some translating to get what you've done into a format that is familiar to the evaluator. They pretty much take what you say at face value. There are no transcript police. :)

#29 OhElizabeth

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:18 PM

BTW, another option for Quiver is to add some more work on labs (including write-ups) to get the quantity of time up enough to count as 2 units. She's more at around 1 1/2 now, so a summer doing the labs would do it. Then she can mark her transcript with the courses having separate years of completion.

#30 kate in seattle

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:48 PM

Okay, my oldest two have only applied to three colleges (Air force Academy, University of Washington and Cornish College of the Arts) but were accepted at all three. I only used credits, not units.

I think Carnegie units are bogus, even at public schools.
1 Carnegie unit =50 minutes.
50 minutes x 180 school days = 9000 min. Divide by 60 and you get 150 hours.

But I know of NO high school class which meets 180 times for 50 minutes. There are early dismissal days, late arrival days, assemblies and field trips that eat up some of those Carnegie units. And the class still earns those Carnegie units if the kids are watching a movie, working on material from other classes, texting on cell phones or not doing anything while teacher grades papers. (and yes, all that stuff happens in our local high school). And a class is considered complete at the 180 Carnegie units - homework is not considered into the calculation.

So, generally I think Carnegie units are bogus.

Just tell the counselor that your home school teaches to mastery and uses credits.

I didn't put dates on my transcripts either, just grouped classes by subject matter.

Is there another admissions person you could work with?

#31 Quiver0f10

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 07:09 AM

Okay, my oldest two have only applied to three colleges (Air force Academy, University of Washington and Cornish College of the Arts) but were accepted at all three. I only used credits, not units.

I think Carnegie units are bogus, even at public schools.
1 Carnegie unit =50 minutes.
50 minutes x 180 school days = 9000 min. Divide by 60 and you get 150 hours.

But I know of NO high school class which meets 180 times for 50 minutes. There are early dismissal days, late arrival days, assemblies and field trips that eat up some of those Carnegie units. And the class still earns those Carnegie units if the kids are watching a movie, working on material from other classes, texting on cell phones or not doing anything while teacher grades papers. (and yes, all that stuff happens in our local high school). And a class is considered complete at the 180 Carnegie units - homework is not considered into the calculation.

So, generally I think Carnegie units are bogus.

Just tell the counselor that your home school teaches to mastery and uses credits.

I didn't put dates on my transcripts either, just grouped classes by subject matter.

Is there another admissions person you could work with?


I'm not sure but I am going to try and find out.

#32 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 07:58 AM

Didn't you mention that your son did the labs for both books as well? I think I've even read here that a high school science course, with labs, counts as 1.5 credits. I wouldn't go for 3 credits lol, but I still can't find any reason not to go with 2, unless if you think that the one listed as honors would carry more weight. I just think that the word "honors" is used so often that it's lost meaning and would think two courses in a subject, with one being listed as "advanced", would be more accurate. Good reasons on both sides though.

Maybe where Elizabeth is coming from is assuming 13 weeks per semester, or a total of only 26 weeks of school??? I know that we do (4) quarters of 9 weeks each, and I think many do about the same. That would give a total of a lot more hours, or units, with him having worked 10 hours a week.

This whole thread has me thinking, because I hope to do something similar - but then again I've never heard of units until this thread. I like credits! :D

#33 Quiver0f10

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 08:33 AM

Didn't you mention that your son did the labs for both books as well? I think I've even read here that a high school science course, with labs, counts as 1.5 credits. I wouldn't go for 3 credits lol, but I still can't find any reason not to go with 2, unless if you think that the one listed as honors would carry more weight. I just think that the word "honors" is used so often that it's lost meaning and would think two courses in a subject, with one being listed as "advanced", would be more accurate. Good reasons on both sides though.

Maybe where Elizabeth is coming from is assuming 13 weeks per semester, or a total of only 26 weeks of school??? I know that we do (4) quarters of 9 weeks each, and I think many do about the same. That would give a total of a lot more hours, or units, with him having worked 10 hours a week.

This whole thread has me thinking, because I hope to do something similar - but then again I've never heard of units until this thread. I like credits! :D



Right. We do 16 weeks a semester too.

#34 Cinder

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 11:38 AM

Exactly! I personally would not alter the dates. It is what it is. He finished in an accelerated pace and credit should be given. My son did multiple sciences in a year and it was not questioned. I'm wondering why this counselor is nitpicking the transcript so much. Our counselor looked ours over but we never had to detail curriculum to that degree. I sounds like you need to talk to another counselor.


Agree. I don't see this as any different than a school that uses the block system. Students complete a year-long course at an accelerated pace in a semester.

Cinder

#35 LaJuana

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 12:05 PM

...I would try another approach. One of the ways that schools evaluate credits is by the textbook used. If a publisher considers its textbook to be a full-year high school course, the college will usually accept the publisher's evaluation of the text. You might ask if the admissions folks need documentation from the publisher that each text is a full-year course. Accrediting agents like NARHS accept a course as a one-credit course if the student has completed a textbook the publisher considers to be a one-school-year high school course.

Hth

#36 Quiver0f10

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 12:25 PM

...I would try another approach. One of the ways that schools evaluate credits is by the textbook used. If a publisher considers its textbook to be a full-year high school course, the college will usually accept the publisher's evaluation of the text. You might ask if the admissions folks need documentation from the publisher that each text is a full-year course. Accrediting agents like NARHS accept a course as a one-credit course if the student has completed a textbook the publisher considers to be a one-school-year high school course.

Hth


She did mention writing a letter stating how we used the book and including the book publisher, title and TOC. So I could do this if needed.

#37 Nan in Mass

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 05:32 AM

Ok. This is about what I was assuming, except that I hadn't translated "doesn't like" in to the specifics of the red pen. Mine don't whiz through curriculum so I don't have the problem of completing things in an unlikely-looking amount of time. Much of what we do isn't really text-book based, anyway, and gets sort of overlooked, for counting purposes, anyway. If colleges don't want to acknowledge credit for learning to sight-sing ten minutes a day for years on end, it won't be any surprise, or even much of a problem. I'm mostly focused on raising people, not college students GRIN. For my older one, I included a school profile explaining exactly how we homeschool, and if anyone calls, I will be glad to explain. Somewhere early on I read a definition of carnegie units that had the words "direct instruction" and I did a little math involving my own high school credits, and realized that those units left out the homework. My area used/uses 5 credits per unit, so the units/credits thing is familiar to me. The concept of carngie units isn't always useful, but it makes a good beginning. We knew when we chose to homeschool this way that we were narrowing the field of possible colleges, but decided it was worth it. I thought we had eliminated all state schools, but apparently we didn't! Hurray for community colleges. And hurray for the admissions department of the alternative-y college I spoke to early on who said that as a non-standard homeschooler, my son would need CC classes in a variety of academic subjects, and yes, he did have to take the SATs. Thank you, Elizabeth, for explaining.
-Nan

#38 Bostonian

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 06:02 AM

It is recommended that high school students take the SAT subject (formerly known as "achievement") tests soon after they take the class. So have your son take the chemistry and physics achievement tests ASAP, to prove that he did study both subjects seriously. Maybe even have him study for the Advanced Placement exams in both subjects, depending on his motivation and current knowledge. His SAT subject test scores could shed light on that.

#39 Pongo

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 06:02 AM

My friend had the same issue, her son was going to MIT. She made the transcript show he did the regular science class and then for summer school he did the other science class and they accepted it.

#40 creekland

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 06:50 AM

I think Carnegie units are bogus, even at public schools.
1 Carnegie unit =50 minutes.
50 minutes x 180 school days = 9000 min. Divide by 60 and you get 150 hours.

But I know of NO high school class which meets 180 times for 50 minutes. There are early dismissal days, late arrival days, assemblies and field trips that eat up some of those Carnegie units. And the class still earns those Carnegie units if the kids are watching a movie, working on material from other classes, texting on cell phones or not doing anything while teacher grades papers. (and yes, all that stuff happens in our local high school). And a class is considered complete at the 180 Carnegie units - homework is not considered into the calculation.

So, generally I think Carnegie units are bogus.


:iagree: And this is exactly the situation at the ps where I work. In many science and math classes, the course covers roughly half to two thirds of what it used to cover before they went to block scheduling and even then they didn't finish any book - ever. Yet they still get one credit and would be assigned a Carnegie unit by admissions folks. It's the main reason I pulled mine out of ps when our school switched to block scheduling.

There are oodles of days where kids do nothing productive due to other activities, days before vacation, subs, or whatever.

Since the OP's student did both books of a series, the regular one and the advanced one, both of which are designed to be one year each, they are definitely worth 2 credits.

Otherwise, I'd list Physical Science too. Our school requires it of all 9th graders as the science course and I doubt we are alone.

#41 Quiver0f10

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:16 AM

It is recommended that high school students take the SAT subject (formerly known as "achievement") tests soon after they take the class. So have your son take the chemistry and physics achievement tests ASAP, to prove that he did study both subjects seriously. Maybe even have him study for the Advanced Placement exams in both subjects, depending on his motivation and current knowledge. His SAT subject test scores could shed light on that.



He took the Chem SAT II after he finished those books. We weren't planning on the physics test but I found out there are tests being offered this fall so I am going to have him work through the SAT II study guide this summer and take the Oct test.

#42 emubird

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:56 AM

Or is the real problem that the counselor has some experience with Apologia and doesn't feel it's a "real" course -- thus she might be willing to accept the advanced course, but not the one before that.

#43 Quiver0f10

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 08:48 AM

Or is the real problem that the counselor has some experience with Apologia and doesn't feel it's a "real" course -- thus she might be willing to accept the advanced course, but not the one before that.



I never mentioned what book or publisher it was so that can't be the issue here.

#44 Miss Marple

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:19 AM

Elizabeth, how would a person transcript 2 sciences (of different types) or 2 maths done in the same year.

In other words, we would like to do both chemistry and biology next year - chemistry at home and biology in a co-op. Would that look terrible on a transcript? Both courses would be done in their own separate time slots. Theoretically the boys would spend 1 hour per day on each subject plus additional time for the labs for each. That would mean that their school day would have 2+ hours per day on science.

Our state system uses units for graduation: to have the equivalent of a state issued high school diploma the students must have 3 units of science - two of which must be lab sciences. Essentially my boys would earn 2 units of science in one year.

One could also conceivably do this with some maths. Geometry and algebra 2 are sometimes done at the same time again using 2 time slots so that the student studies math for 2 hours per day (or more).

Will this be a transcript problem?

#45 emubird

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:41 AM

I never mentioned what book or publisher it was so that can't be the issue here.


Then maybe she doesn't know they're really separate books, meant for different years? If you sent in a quote of a blurb from the Apologia curriculum, would that clear up the problem?

If she continues to insist it's only one year for the two books, I'd list the physical science as a year from way back when and list his two advanced courses as "advanced" or "accelerated" or "2nd" year or something (with a note that the 1st year is included in this accelerated course).

The issue, as I see it, is making sure he gets the credit he's due -- but not necessarily the "credits". If you can't convince her that he's done 5 years of science, show that he's at least done the 3 that they want to see (did I get that right?) and be sure to emphasize that his chem and physics covered 2 years in one year. They don't need to give him all the credit hours for that. It's more important for them to know that he did classes that were a lot more work than the standard courses.

Generally, once you've gone over the number of credits they require for an area, they don't care about the actual number. They're only looking at the breadth and depth of coverage. It may be that listing each of these as one accelerated course may even be more impressive.

#46 Luckymama

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:57 AM

Elizabeth, how would a person transcript 2 sciences (of different types) or 2 maths done in the same year.

In other words, we would like to do both chemistry and biology next year - chemistry at home and biology in a co-op. Would that look terrible on a transcript? Both courses would be done in their own separate time slots. Theoretically the boys would spend 1 hour per day on each subject plus additional time for the labs for each. That would mean that their school day would have 2+ hours per day on science.

Our state system uses units for graduation: to have the equivalent of a state issued high school diploma the students must have 3 units of science - two of which must be lab sciences. Essentially my boys would earn 2 units of science in one year.

One could also conceivably do this with some maths. Geometry and algebra 2 are sometimes done at the same time again using 2 time slots so that the student studies math for 2 hours per day (or more).

Will this be a transcript problem?


Not Elizabeth :) but I don't think that would be a problem at all. In fact, the majority of advanced students at both my kids' high schools take either 2 sciences OR 2 English/literature courses OR 2 history courses (depending on their interests) their senior year, if not their junior year as well. My ds will be taking AP Physics C and AP Environmental Science this coming year, both with labs. He has a friend who will be taking AP Euro and AP Govt this year.

#47 OhElizabeth

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:29 AM

Not Elizabeth :) but I don't think that would be a problem at all. In fact, the majority of advanced students at both my kids' high schools take either 2 sciences OR 2 English/literature courses OR 2 history courses (depending on their interests) their senior year, if not their junior year as well. My ds will be taking AP Physics C and AP Environmental Science this coming year, both with labs. He has a friend who will be taking AP Euro and AP Govt this year.


What she said. No problem at all with taking two difference sciences or maths or whatever in a year. The struggle is doing two levels of the SAME thing in a year and trying to communicate what you actually covered, how much time was spent, etc. Those two things were done consecutively, which raises a lot of questions in the evaluator's mind. But to do subjects concurrently, no problem or oddity there.

You know, the more I think about this, the more odd it seems to me. I'm not familiar enough with the Apologia Adv. Chem book. Does it go all the way back to the beginning and start OVER with topics, like Zumdahl or any typical text used for AP chem? Or does it pick up with the 2nd half of topics they would have covered in a full AP class? Don't know if I'm making sense here. If the Apol. adv. chem book, by itself, covers the same material as any other AP/2nd year text (Zumdahl, whatever), then absolutely I would fight and finagle to get that counted that way on the transcript. Add the labs, get the time up, get the credit. But IF the book actually sort of takes a part 1, part 2 approach, covering the 2nd half of a through scope & sequence, then I would more logically call completing the two books together a single, honors chem class.

In other words, this whole discussion has rested on the assumption of what the Apologia Adv. Chem book covers. I'm now realizing I don't know the answer to that.

Now that's really nitpicky, because they're we're going to have some brave soul pop up and say they gave their kid credit for Adv. Chem, by itself, because it's a book. Well there you go, do anything you want. That is of course the prerogative of schools, to define their courses as they wish, and there are NO TRANSCRIPT POLICE. I could see both situations as being legitimate, depending on the time frame, the student, and what you were trying to communicate. And I'll repeat my original point and the only reason I started posting in this thread. You can DO anything you want, but the transcript clerk may spill red ink over it and change how it is counted. So IF you cut it close and IF they don't calculate it the way you did, you could end up with a problem, deficiencies, etc. So don't do this. Add more time, finagle the dates, call it honors, take more classes at the cc. Just don't cut it close and get yourself in a pinch. :)

#48 mcconnellboys

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:00 PM

Wow, I'm very unsure about this Elizabeth! My son applied to a wide range of schools: state schools, selective schools, schools from Lauren Pope's list (that tell me, at least, that they are selective - I don't know). Not one of them questioned my transcript and I listed no dates for specific courses. In fact, I don't even think I put a "school year, i.e., 2010-11" date on each year's work.....

He was accepted to all but one school. Now, he didn't apply to any true "ivies", maybe they are that strict, but we didn't run up against this requirement anywhere.....

#49 mcconnellboys

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:09 PM

I thought schools were moving away from Carnegie units, too. Many online schools that provide high school transcripts grant course completion after anywhere from 100-180 hours of work, so hours may vary widely.

Time spent does not equivocate, in my opinion, to mastery of a subject. Most other countries do not equate mastery of a subject with "class time" spent on it. They equate mastery with mastery: high test scores, ability to write and/or speak intelligently about a subject, transferral of knowledge to good scores on college entrance exams, etc.

And most colleges I'm familiar with also recognize that many kids who have "done the time" still may not be up to speed on any given subject, despite what their scores are from their schools. Again, I would think that if there is any doubt, then college entrance scores, extra subject tests, etc. should allay any fears they might have about preparation.

#50 Kareni

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:55 PM

I'm mostly focused on raising people, not college students ....



I loved this line, Nan. I think sometimes we get so caught up in the college application process that we lose sight of what is truly important for the long run.

Regards,
Kareni


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