DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 disagree. whether he's ministering to YOU as a someone to be sent out or helping stock the food pantry, his job is to do what God calls him to do and still shepherd his flock. Even pastors have different spiritual gifts on how best to shepherd the particular flock they are responsible for ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I think that when people say that they mean that the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher is primarily a communication gift. It is a gift that teaches others in the congregation and so requires a certain amount of study time. And many pastor's are kept from having time to study by having to visit the sick etc. So in one sense I agree with the statement. What I don't agree about the statement is it's black and white nature. While it is the pastor's job to equip others to do ministry, part of teaching is also by example. And in that sense a pastor needs to be doing non-teaching ministry to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? I'd feel better if I read that statement in context. Many people think the pastor should do it all, whatever "it" is. If that's what this refers to, then, I agree (that it is *not* his job), with the understanding, of course, that it's really the Holy Spirit Who equips us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? I think a pastor's job is absolutely to equip the congregation to minister to and serve one another and the people in their communities. But a pastor is to lead by example, so I would not agree that it's not part of the pastor's job to minister to his congregants. I have been in churches that expect the pastor and staff to do all the ministry and that is not a healthy way for the church to function; if that's the point he was making, I agree with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 It was said by a pastor whose typical week looks like this: Preach Sunday morning at 8:30 & 11:00. Facilitate men's Bible study every other Sunday night (go through a fill-in-the-blank booklet w/the group). This man also meets once a month with the deacons, once a month with the missions committee, and visits people if they are in the hospital (not often). He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. He does not attend Sunday School or teach it. His church does have small groups, none of which he leads or has any involvement in whatsoever. They are all led by other people, as is VBS, youth group, outreach programs, missions, etc. He has done away with the Sunday night service, the midweek service, and the weekly prayer meeting. Some people in his church feel like he's simply skating by, trying to keep his church responsibilities to a bare minimum. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. Others are convinced that he's right when he says it's not his job to do ministry. They have no problem with the lack of involvement, hospitality, sunday school attendance, etc. They think it's enough that he preaches 2 services on Sunday morning and that's it. Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I think that when people say that they mean that the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher is primarily a communication gift. It is a gift that teaches others in the congregation and so requires a certain amount of study time. And many pastor's are kept from having time to study by having to visit the sick etc. So in one sense I agree with the statement. What I don't agree about the statement is it's black and white nature. While it is the pastor's job to equip others to do ministry, part of teaching is also by example. And in that sense a pastor needs to be doing non-teaching ministry to others. :iagree: In the original language, the word translated to pastor and elder are the same word. When you read about responsibilities and requirements for a pastor, those actually are intended to be shared between all of the elders. The pastor-teacher role (usually the lead pastor) is considered the first among equals. Meaning he does have a headship role, but that does not mean he is supposed to do it all. Ministry to the flock is supposed to be a shared responsibility. His PRIMARY role is to teach/equip the flock. And if you are a believer, then you are THE CHURCH and should have a ministry. And yes, it is the teacher-pastors role to equip you for that ministry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Is this your pastor? Honestly, this sounds like gossip. If he is your pastor, it sounds like you need to set up coffee with him. If he is not your pastor, then you should probably steer whoever is talking with you to do the same. I get a real bad taste in my mouth when people pick apart pastors like this. It was said by a pastor whose typical week looks like this: Preach Sunday morning at 8:30 & 11:00. Facilitate men's Bible study every other Sunday night (go through a fill-in-the-blank booklet w/the group). This man also meets once a month with the deacons, once a month with the missions committee, and visits people if they are in the hospital (not often). He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. He does not attend Sunday School or teach it. His church does have small groups, none of which he leads or has any involvement in whatsoever. They are all led by other people, as is VBS, youth group, outreach programs, missions, etc. He has done away with the Sunday night service, the midweek service, and the weekly prayer meeting. Some people in his church feel like he's simply skating by, trying to keep his church responsibilities to a bare minimum. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. Others are convinced that he's right when he says it's not his job to do ministry. They have no problem with the lack of involvement, hospitality, sunday school attendance, etc. They think it's enough that he preaches 2 services on Sunday morning and that's it. Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Thank you for your input -- it's good!! :D What would you think if the man who said that kept the schedule I posted below AND that all existing ministries in the church today were already up & running and in place 7.5 years ago when this man came to the church? In other words, he did none of the equipping, and nothing new has happened in the 7.5 years since he came, with the exception of some of his responsibilities (Sunday night, midweek services) being eliminated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Good point, and I agree with picking apart pastors and grievances being brought right to the pastor (which has happened with this particular person numerous times over the years). My question is whether or not people agree with the statement or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMindy Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I don't know how big the church is, but the pastor can not be expected to personally meet the needs of every person in the congregation, so he must teach others how to lead. However, I think that being a pastor means giving yourself to the people you are shepherding. In the models where I have seen it work the best, the pastors pour their lives into serving and shepherding the leaders (or elders, or whatever you call them) and the elders then pour their lives into the people in their own ministries. This is very different than what you described. Being a pastor is hard and there are a ton of pressures put on them, but I would be very frustrated by what you described. I think if there is the perception out there that he is skating, this will only hurt his reputation and effectiveness. I would hope that a couple of leaders could talk to him about this and explain how this is being viewed by people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Good point, and I agree with picking apart pastors and grievances being brought right to the pastor (which has happened with this particular person numerous times over the years). My question is whether or not people agree with the statement or not. Yes, your OP was about the statement, but your subsequent posts have moved onto picking apart his weekly schedule and the history of his ministry at that church. Is this your pastor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Honestly, you probably don't want to know what I think, because I don't think pastoring is a job at all. I think it is a gift that many people have -- a gift that people should use in their everyday life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Yes, your OP was about the statement, but your subsequent posts have moved onto picking apart his weekly schedule and the history of his ministry at that church. Is this your pastor? Ellie asked for context, which is what I gave by providing some background. Not "picking apart his weekly schedule"; I'm simply trying to give context to the statement. And to clarify: I'm not sure HOW I feel about the statement itself. I don't know if I agree or not, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Hearing varying opinions will help me think it through and come to my own conclusion on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Honestly, you probably don't want to know what I think, because I don't think pastoring is a job at all. I think it is a gift that many people have -- a gift that people should use in their everyday life. Good point; thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It was said by a pastor whose typical week looks like this: Preach Sunday morning at 8:30 & 11:00. Facilitate men's Bible study every other Sunday night (go through a fill-in-the-blank booklet w/the group). This man also meets once a month with the deacons, once a month with the missions committee, and visits people if they are in the hospital (not often). He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. He does not attend Sunday School or teach it. His church does have small groups, none of which he leads or has any involvement in whatsoever. They are all led by other people, as is VBS, youth group, outreach programs, missions, etc. He has done away with the Sunday night service, the midweek service, and the weekly prayer meeting. Some people in his church feel like he's simply skating by, trying to keep his church responsibilities to a bare minimum. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. Others are convinced that he's right when he says it's not his job to do ministry. They have no problem with the lack of involvement, hospitality, sunday school attendance, etc. They think it's enough that he preaches 2 services on Sunday morning and that's it. Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D Ugh, that's what I say. Our church just got rid of our pastor of 11 years (he was finally caught plagiarizing the sermons). He didn't care one whit for anyone in the congregation, save himself...no visitation, no phone calls, nothing. He would certainly tell you that his job was to equip people, but that was nothing but an excuse. Wouldn't teach, wouldn't attend any church functions that he could possibly get out of, preached maybe 3 Sundays a month....can I just say that he drove our congregation away? We had a congregational meeting today. There are approximately 20 couples aged 75 or older. There are four couples ages 40-70. There are two couples younger than that. We've lost two generations - over 25 couples left. The children are all gone. It's just too upsetting to try to describe Anyway, suffice it to say that I cannot accept as truth what that pastor is saying. While that might be part of the job description, his calling is to shepherd his flock as well. Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 Ugh, that's what I say. Our church just got rid of our pastor of 11 years (he was finally caught plagiarizing the sermons). He didn't care one whit for anyone in the congregation, save himself...no visitation, no phone calls, nothing. He would certainly tell you that his job was to equip people, but that was nothing but an excuse. Wouldn't teach, wouldn't attend any church functions that he could possibly get out of, preached maybe 3 Sundays a month....can I just say that he drove our congregation away? We had a congregational meeting today. There are approximately 20 couples aged 75 or older. There are four couples ages 40-70. There are two couples younger than that. We've lost two generations - over 25 couples left. The children are all gone. It's just too upsetting to try to describe Anyway, suffice it to say that I cannot accept as truth what that pastor is saying. While that might be part of the job description, his calling is to shepherd his flock as well. Ria ((((Ria)))) I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know how painful it is! I pray the Lord will bring peace and healing to you and your church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? Sometimes that means delegation, sometimes that means charity, sometimes it means healing, sometimes it means counseling other ministers (in Jesus' case, the apostles and other disciples). Jesus didn't leave his disciples out in the cold, wondering how to do their job. He equipped them and made them aware of how to serve. But he also did every other work of mercy and ministry. Each of us has different gifts, and in that, the minister was correct. We're all called to a "royal priesthood," and we can't rely on a pastor to do the work of everyone. I don't know how your pastor defines "ministry," but istm that "ministry" involves giving others what they need, whether that's the news of salvation, encouragement in the Christian life, or a specific Christian duty (a youth minister, or minister to the sick or poor, etc). No one can ever neglect to minister to someone, if they take this definition. He might be taking his cue from the 6th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. Your pastor, when he says other pastors are "WRONG," seems to say that there is only one very narrow view of how a pastor should work. If one could criticize him based on this short quote, istm that it would be that he holds such a narrow view and wants to hold others to it, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 He spends most of his time at home, not in the office.... Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D I would give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Often for uninterrupted study time - and for avoiding the appearance of compromising situations with females who may come into the office unexpectedly - he may work better at home. I guess a lot depends on the size of church, how large the office staff is, if there even is a staff. As far as your question being gossipping... I will support your desire to validate your feelings here. Often we need to bounce these types of thoughts off the minds of others, but to do so IRL would indeed be gossipping. You have not truly spoken ill of him if you are stating the truth. JMHO. As far as the original statement, I think you've got some good responses. It's hard to see it totally one way or the other. I believe the poster who mentioned leading by example hit the nail on the head. Jesus was a servant leader, not a pretentious one. Was there a written job description in place when this pastor was hired? Is he continuing to meet the obligations specified therein? Seems like that would have to be your plumb line. That and, as Ria mentioned, whether or not his teaching remains true to the faith. As for me, a pastor who is willing to roll up his sleeves and not act like a prima donna will have my support over one who dresses a little too sharp and has every hair in place (I am speaking literally and figuratively here). One that appears to be trying to "get out of" ministry work, well, I'd not be feelin' the warm fuzzies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I think that the church could get the same with a radio. It's crazy...are the people at your church friendly? I believe that one of a pastor's jobs is to model Christian Living...how can you tell that they are modeling a Christian Life...if you never seen them live.... I'd say...the guy doesn't need to be a pastor...he needs to just be a speaker. Carrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess in the Burbs Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 what about this one, "a minister is either a pastor or a preacher. a pastor cares about his congregation and a preacher preaches but can't give the personal care of a pastor". I think the pastor has to teach others to do ministry....especially to minister to the congregation. My own minister is a great preacher. but he promises to call and doesn't. he promises to follow up on things but doesn't. but he can reach a lot of people on different levels with his sermon and clearly has God speaking through him when he is preaching. I would prefer the great preacher leading and the flock tending any day!!! It took me awhile to appreciate this. And I would suspect many ministers aren't good in both roles. so it's in the best interest of everyone if they do teach other's to minister in roles the minister can't fulfill daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 I think that the church could get the same with a radio. It's crazy...are the people at your church friendly? I believe that one of a pastor's jobs is to model Christian Living...how can you tell that they are modeling a Christian Life...if you never seen them live....I'd say...the guy doesn't need to be a pastor...he needs to just be a speaker. Carrie The people at this particular church are known for their friendliness, the family atmosphere at the church, and the warmth extended to everyone from the original founding members (been there 50 years) to the first-time visitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. If he works at home because he finds it easier to study and work on his sermons there, I wouldn't have a problem with that. OTOH, if he's drawing a full time salary and spending his days watching TV, I would have a problem with that. Is he using his community activities as opportunities to meet people and minister to people outside the church? I think pastors should be involved in the community. However, I would find it strange for a pastor not to be involved with the people of the church. A shepherd can't lead his sheep (or equip them for ministry) if he's never with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It was said by a pastor whose typical week looks like this: Preach Sunday morning at 8:30 & 11:00. Facilitate men's Bible study every other Sunday night (go through a fill-in-the-blank booklet w/the group). This man also meets once a month with the deacons, once a month with the missions committee, and visits people if they are in the hospital (not often). He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. He does not attend Sunday School or teach it. His church does have small groups, none of which he leads or has any involvement in whatsoever. They are all led by other people, as is VBS, youth group, outreach programs, missions, etc. He has done away with the Sunday night service, the midweek service, and the weekly prayer meeting. Some people in his church feel like he's simply skating by, trying to keep his church responsibilities to a bare minimum. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. Others are convinced that he's right when he says it's not his job to do ministry. They have no problem with the lack of involvement, hospitality, sunday school attendance, etc. They think it's enough that he preaches 2 services on Sunday morning and that's it. Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D I think this sounds like a man who has learned to delegate well. Good for him. Fie on the folks who think he should be doing it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? Err... not sure what that means? How does this person define "doing ministry"? I can't imagine defining ministry in a way that would not include preaching and discipling (i.e. "equipping others.") If what this person means is that the only ministry responsibility of a pastor is to preach, then I'd have to say I strongly disagree with that. All of us have responsibilities to serve one another in practical ways, even if our area of giftedness is in the teaching area. We are blessed to have a pastor who is a true servant. He does everything from preach, to evangelism, to putting on an apron and serving food at church get-togethers. His willingness to serve wherever and whenever is a huge example and encouragement to all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I don't know how big the church is, but the pastor can not be expected to personally meet the needs of every person in the congregation, so he must teach others how to lead. However, I think that being a pastor means giving yourself to the people you are shepherding. In the models where I have seen it work the best, the pastors pour their lives into serving and shepherding the leaders (or elders, or whatever you call them) and the elders then pour their lives into the people in their own ministries. This is very different than what you described. Being a pastor is hard and there are a ton of pressures put on them, but I would be very frustrated by what you described. I think if there is the perception out there that he is skating, this will only hurt his reputation and effectiveness. I would hope that a couple of leaders could talk to him about this and explain how this is being viewed by people. I agree, and I also wonder if this church has a problem getting the congregation to chip in and serve as well? The leaders usually set the tone for the church as far as participation goes, and I would think it would be difficult to motivate people to serve when the pastor himself is not present other than for preaching responsibilities, kwim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Ellie asked for context, which is what I gave by providing some background. Not "picking apart his weekly schedule"; I'm simply trying to give context to the statement. And to clarify: I'm not sure HOW I feel about the statement itself. I don't know if I agree or not, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Hearing varying opinions will help me think it through and come to my own conclusion on the matter. Now that you've explained the situation a bit more, I can say more clearly that I would not be comfortable with a pastor who viewed ministry in this way. Preaching/teaching is the primary role of the pastor, but not the only role. I would prefer a pastoral style that is more of a partner in ministry with us, so that we are all ministering together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 What say you? Eh. I find the statement gimmicky, simplistic and insulting to the role of Pastor. A Pastor's role is complex and multidimensional and can't be encapsulated in a catch sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? It's difficult to assess the comment out of context, but I believe equipping others to minister is itself a form of ministry. That isn't of utmost importance to me, though. If I can hear good, expositional preaching, it matters not a whit to me whether or not the person preaching also leads this, that, and the other group. Generally, most of the body is not gifted in preaching. On the other hand, there's a much larger pool of people available to serve elsewhere. So I'm inclined not to analyze the comment you shared, but to ask you to consider the preaching you're receiving. Although it sounds, from what you shared here, that you have a negative opinion of how this person does his job, and that in and of itself may color your opinion of his preaching, too. Edited February 16, 2009 by Colleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 :iagree: In the original language, the word translated to pastor and elder are the same word. When you read about responsibilities and requirements for a pastor, those actually are intended to be shared between all of the elders. The pastor-teacher role (usually the lead pastor) is considered the first among equals. Meaning he does have a headship role, but that does not mean he is supposed to do it all. Ministry to the flock is supposed to be a shared responsibility. His PRIMARY role is to teach/equip the flock. And if you are a believer, then you are THE CHURCH and should have a ministry. And yes, it is the teacher-pastors role to equip you for that ministry. :iagree: My pastor calls himself the pastor/teacher. He is one pastor among the other 11 men of the elder board. His primary goal is to teach us the Word. He's also a counselor, financial advisor (certified specifically to be of service to the church), and writer. The other elders can preach if needed to fill in, and they over see other ministries. Every member is encouraged strongly to be involved in ministry of some sort. I hate the idea of a pastor calling his position a "job." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 *we* are Christ's body and ministry is our job. But I do think that equipping people to do ministry IS ministry. It's just one type of ministry. So I guess before I agreed or disagreed, I would want to hear from HIM what he really meant and what the context was, but I am inclined to agree that parishoners who look to their pastor to do the ministry of the church are making a mistake. I just really think that you should talk to him personally if you didn't understand what he meant or if you think he's meeting a particular need that you believe needs to be addressed. Teaching Sunday School isn't necesary in my book. Being in a small group isn't necessary and I actually think many pastors avoid them because they don't want to favor one small group, and they also know that the presence of a pastor can change the whole dynamic. He might consider the men's bible study sort of his group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 the word translated to pastor and elder are the same word. When you read about responsibilities and requirements for a pastor, those actually are intended to be shared between all of the elders. I believe pastor/shepherd is poimen and the bishop/overseer (mentioned in 1 Timothy with qualifications) is the word episkopos. Teacher is a separate word along with prophet, apostle, and evangelist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 The people at this particular church are known for their friendliness, the family atmosphere at the church, and the warmth extended to everyone from the original founding members (been there 50 years) to the first-time visitor. ok, based on this bit, I agree w/ Laura about the only thing really open to criticism is that he thinks the way he fills his role applies to ANY pastor. I would likely let him know that *I'm* uncomfortable w/ the way he models shepherding. A shepherd can't effectively tend to his flock once a week. We were at a church in NY that had a WONDERFUL congregation --even in between pastors. That is a very thankful thing IMNSHO. It was even better when the pastor they got was GREAT and leading studies and answering questions --what a GREAT mix!!! It was one of the few things I regretted leaving the frigid cold of NY and coming back to TX. I'm guessing that if the people noticing and complaining are elders, then they will likely seek a new pastor eventually. If the majority of the congregation is ok w/ him not rocking teh boat they had already established, and you are content w/ the teaching you are receiving, then i would likely let the statement roll off my back and let my family --and the pastor/ elders--- know my disagreement and why, but drop it after that. Most of it would depend on the relationship i had w/ the elders/ congregation that had been there previously and their take on the pastor's involvement. good luck- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I would agree with statement if we can omit the word "ONLY." I say it is the primary job of a pastor to equip the people, but equipping the people is a VERY broad job description. The appropriate time spent and how that time is allocated all depends upon where God places a pastor, and with what congregation? A good *preacher* spends 20+ hours per week on preparing the Sunday morning sermon (according to dh's preaching profs at seminary). A lot of that prep could be done at home (and thus not counted on a "time clock"). My dh is in seminary now, and he was actually advised to begin ministry with a new church with the expectation that certain hours of his day are for study at home (uninterrupted, except for emergency;)). A good *pastor* or shepherd spends uncountable hours WITH his flock. Depending on the church size it may or may not mean he makes every single hospital visit, but it does mean that he makes sure that an associate pastor or deacon does the visit. It does mean that he goes on a great many of those visits himself, and most pastors I know have scheduled times throughout the week for visits. Part of the job of pastor is training up others to pastor .....aka leading by example. One cannot say "do as I say, not as I do" - it doesn't work in parenting and in doesn't work to raise up Godly pastors. I also look at what the church can pay the pastor (sadly). If the pastor cannot feed his family on his church wages, then the congregation should expect to allow him the time to provide for his family with another job. That means the pastor must allocate precious time between sermon prep, visitations, extra ministries, etc... There are certainly those who in ministry for "shameful gain," and I wouldn't want to be them on judgement day. I am also very careful to criticize b/c I just don't know what is going on irl. Lots can be twisted or lost when things are relayed from one person to the next. I've actually heard from my dh's mouth (and he's the good sort of ministry man, of course:001_smile:) that he's doing his job when he's working himself out of his job - meaning when he was doing youth ministry, his job at a church was "done" when he had trained up a multitude of mentors for the youth who could carry on the ministry w/o him there.......doing that however takes a LOT of work.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 It's difficult to assess the comment out of context, but I believe equipping others to minister is itself a form of ministry. That isn't of utmost importance to me, though. If I can hear good, expositional preaching, it matters not a whit to me whether or not the person preaching also leads this, that, and the other group. Generally, most of the body is not gifted in preaching. On the other hand, there's a much larger pool of people available to serve elsewhere. So I'm inclined not to analyze the comment you shared, but to ask you to consider the preaching you're receiving. Although it sounds, from what you shared here, that you have a negative opinion of how this person does his job, and that in and of itself may color your opinion of his preaching, too. Well said. I think I'll take this to PM with you :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 ...I agree EXCEPT that I don't believe that equipping the saints for the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4:12) is a pastor's ONLY job. That is one of his jobs, but not the ONLY one. A pastor, like every other Christian, has spiritual gifts that are to be used in ministry in general. This means that the pastor is NOT supposed to be the only minister in a church; the members are also supposed to be ministers. In my experience, many church members seem to think that their pastor is the one who is supposed to do the work of ministry, and their job is to be pew-warmers and to hold the pastor accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 A trend I've seen in the past ten or fifteen years is the 'pulpit guy' being only a preaching person, not a pastor or shepherd in the traditional sense. The thought (which stems from some Saddleback beginnings, IIRC) is that a good 'preacher' needs significant time to study, reflect, pray, and write in preparation for his Sunday (and midweek) sermons (lessons). This line of thought says he shouldn't be required to visit the sick, deal with counseling, or other ministry matters. His preaching is his primary ministry and he should devote himself to it. That's why there is a rise among many churches in employing a 'Body Life' Minister....he is the one who visits the sick, helps those in need, prays with the hurting, counsels, etc. His job is to be among the sheep in a physical, hands-on way. He only gets into the pulpit when the main guy is taking a vacation. The Body Life minister also may teach Bible classes and help organize small groups, etc. Our family has attended a church where the pulpit preacher is a fantastic preacher...rich, meaty, entertaining, and vivid. Absolutely wonderful. And it is well know throughout the large (3300+) members that he has the personality of cardboard. That's not his thing and he is so talented in the pulpit that elderships and memberships allow him to do what he does best. For me, I love a pulpit guy who is also a hands on minister. But I know for a man to have time to study, time for his family, and time to lead administratively, something has to give. The rest of the Body needs to be visiting, tending, and ministering. The pulpit guy needs to be teaching constantly about these things and our relationships to God and each other. Currently at the little church we are a part of, we have a man who is dynamite at connecting with people. He is so good at building relationships. But only so-so in the pulpit. It is my wish that we had enough funds to hire a pulpit guy to be brilliant on Sunday morning and keep our regular preacher for all the connections to be made. So...a long post to wonder if your pastor has been reading some of the same materials I have about separating preaching ministry from other ministries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 My initial reaction to that is if I wanted to be equipped to minister I would go to seminary school. I think of a pastor as a wise counsel and someone who is teaching and helping me make decisions in my life. I should be able to go to them with difficult issues and their guidance as to what Jesus would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) It was said by a pastor whose typical week looks like this: Preach Sunday morning at 8:30 & 11:00. Facilitate men's Bible study every other Sunday night (go through a fill-in-the-blank booklet w/the group). This man also meets once a month with the deacons, once a month with the missions committee, and visits people if they are in the hospital (not often). He spends most of his time at home, not in the office. He also is a volunteer at the local fire department, on a committee at the school where his wife teaches, and a guest speaker at other facilities. He does not attend Sunday School or teach it. His church does have small groups, none of which he leads or has any involvement in whatsoever. They are all led by other people, as is VBS, youth group, outreach programs, missions, etc. He has done away with the Sunday night service, the midweek service, and the weekly prayer meeting. Some people in his church feel like he's simply skating by, trying to keep his church responsibilities to a bare minimum. Neither he nor his wife are involved with the people in their congregation; he simply preaches Sunday morning and does the every-other-week men's Bible study. Others are convinced that he's right when he says it's not his job to do ministry. They have no problem with the lack of involvement, hospitality, sunday school attendance, etc. They think it's enough that he preaches 2 services on Sunday morning and that's it. Just trying to get a feel for how other view the statement. Thanks for your input -- KEEP IT COMING!!! :D Many people assume that a pastor only "works" a few hours a week because the only time they actually *see* him working is when he is in the pulpit or visiting the flock. In reality, there is MUCH more to it than that. People who've never done it have NO IDEA what is involved in sermon preparation. Hours of prayer and study go into each and every message a pastor delivers. Like the pastor you mentioned, dh doesn't attend Sunday School either. He spends that time in prayer and meditation before the worship service/sermon. And that is in addition to the praying that he does for the individual situations of each family in the church. I can't even being to tell you how many hours my dh spends in prayer for the people in our church, as well as their extended families. I can't tell you how many times he has been called away from our own family to go and minister to others. As a matter of fact, RIGHT NOW, he is at the hospital with a church member whose son has been injured in a freak accident. I took the phone call this morning when the father called to ask dh to meet him at the hospital. Dh had been planning to take the morning off and spend it at home with us -- the first time off he's had in at least 2 weeks! Believe me, NO ONE -- absolutely NO ONE -- can tell from the outside the weight that a pastor carries and how much "work" he's doing. It is ENORMOUS, because he is carrying the spiritual burdens of an entire congregation! I could tell you story after story after story that illustrates this -- like the time dh had to officiate at the funeral when dear parishioners' only son committed suicide at the age of 15 -- after having stolen dh's truck (while dh was making a pastoral visit to the boy & his family) and then being sent to drug rehab. Or the time he was called to come back early from our first family vacation in years because the minister of music at our former church had revealed to the deacons that he had AIDS as a result of a homosexual relationship. Or the time he was called to minister to a family who was involved in a car accident that caused permanent brain injury to the teenage daughter, and injured the pregnant mother so that she gave birth permaturely to a blind & crippled baby. Or the times he was called to minister to three. different. families in which the head of each family had sexually abused a young girl living in his home. The latter was probably the most difficult set of circumstances because legally, dh could not talk about the situations, and people in the congregation didn't even know what was going on until much, much later. I could go on and on, but the point is that situations like these are the kinds of things that pastors deal with EVERY.DAY. I say, give the pastor in question the benefit of the doubt. It is very likely that he is dealing with situations of which the congregation is completely unaware. Edited February 16, 2009 by ereks mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 My initial reaction to that is if I wanted to be equipped to minister I would go to seminary school. I think of a pastor as a wise counsel and someone who is teaching and helping me make decisions in my life. I should be able to go to them with difficult issues and their guidance as to what Jesus would do. That doesn't mean all Christians are called to be vocational ministers, but we are all supposed to minister to others according to our gifts, whether that is teaching preschoolers or cooking a meal for a sick friend or praying for someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 ...I agree EXCEPT that I don't believe that equipping the saints for the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4:12) is a pastor's ONLY job. That is one of his jobs, but not the ONLY one. A pastor, like every other Christian, has spiritual gifts that are to be used in ministry in general. This means that the pastor is NOT supposed to be the only minister in a church; the members are also supposed to be ministers. In my experience, many church members seem to think that their pastor is the one who is supposed to do the work of ministry, and their job is to be pew-warmers and to hold the pastor accountable. Very well said. I agree whole-heartedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Many people assume that a pastor only "works" a few hours a week because the only time they actually *see* him working is when he is in the pulpit or visiting the flock. In reality, there is MUCH more to it than that. People who've never done it have NO IDEA what is involved in sermon preparation. Hours of prayer and study go into each and every message a pastor delivers. Like the pastor you mentioned, dh doesn't attend Sunday School either. He spends that time in prayer and meditation before the worship service/sermon. Believe me, NO ONE -- absolutely NO ONE -- can tell from the outside the weight that a pastor carries and how much "work" he's doing. It is ENORMOUS, because he is carrying the spiritual burdens of an entire congregation! I say, give the pastor in question the benefit of the doubt. It is very likely that he is dealing with situations of which the congregation is completely unaware. Once again, very, very well said. Much more eloquently than I could have said this, but still very much on the mark. People seem to enjoy analyzing and criticizing their pastor (and his wife and children as well). They seem to think because they pay him a salary they have the right to run his entire life. If you have a problem with your pastor do what the Bible says and take your concerns to him first. Don't gossip about him behind his back. If what he tells you does not satisfy you, then take it to your governing board be that deacons or whatever system is in place in your church. Most likely they will be able to address all of your concerns. If they can't; they will look into it and get back with you. Honestly, the 'concerns' brought up by the OP seem to me to be petty and spiteful. The pastor isn't just going to decide to 'only' preach or whatever without the approval of the governing board of the church. Most likely all of this was negotiated as terms of his acceptance of the position when he came to this church. If not, the governing board would take him to task for not fulfilling his job description and ask him to leave. In answer to the OP's question of "what do I think of that statement?": I think that he would not have made that statement if it hadn't been agreed to by the governing board of the church as being the direction that they want their pastor to head. But what *I* think of the statement doesn't really matter. What matters is what *OP* thinks. If she doesn't agree with this direction that this particular church has decided to head, or if she is uncertain of what direction the church is heading in, she needs to talk with the pastor and governing board of her church FIRST, and then make the decision as to whether or not that is the direction she wishes to continue in herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 From my experience in a church, it appears to be the job of the additional ministers, aside from the head pastor, to reach the congregation as a whole and help guide members to find their gifts to help others. The thing I worry about too much focus on just that one thing is people get too busy with doing so much for others and end up making their own family suffer in the process. I think the main job is to make sure those you are guiding to minister to others feel 'right' in their own family and relationships. I don't mean perfect, but working on putting your family first. We all tend to look so great on the outside, when our own families and marriages might be breaking. I think when we feel more whole as an individual it is a greater extension that we will naturally move toward ministry to others. It is so much easier to help others than help ourselves and our own family members. The real challenge isn't getting others to minister, but getting us to have thriving relationships to the people we are most close to. Deep, honest, growing relationships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 People seem to enjoy analyzing and criticizing their pastor (and his wife and children as well). They seem to think because they pay him a salary they have the right to run his entire life. If you have a problem with your pastor do what the Bible says and take your concerns to him first. Don't gossip about him behind his back. ---- Honestly, the 'concerns' brought up by the OP seem to me to be petty and spiteful. The pastor isn't just going to decide to 'only' preach or whatever without the approval of the governing board of the church. Most likely all of this was negotiated as terms of his acceptance of the position when he came to this church. If not, the governing board would take him to task for not fulfilling his job description and ask him to leave. In answer to the OP's question of "what do I think of that statement?": I think that he would not have made that statement if it hadn't been agreed to by the governing board of the church as being the direction that they want their pastor to head. But what *I* think of the statement doesn't really matter. What matters is what *OP* thinks. If she doesn't agree with this direction that this particular church has decided to head, or if she is uncertain of what direction the church is heading in, she needs to talk with the pastor and governing board of her church FIRST, and then make the decision as to whether or not that is the direction she wishes to continue in herself. well, I'll jump in and offer a few cents too. There is nothing wrong w/ vetting whether something IS EVEN a concern. It could have just as easily been a "yup- he's right, be thankful" response and she wouldn't have even bothered the pastor. i don't think that people "enjoy" criticizing their pastor, but like any other Christian we ARE called to hold even him accountable, and as a pastor, there IS a bit higher standard to hold. I do believe they need a lot of grace and support, but that doesn't exonerate them from the role they have been called to. I would hope that seminary DOES do SOMETHING to prepare a pastor for the critiquing he will receive, no? That's a far cry from "running his life." We don't need to bite the hand that feeds us [spiritually], but neither are we called to take EVERYTHING they say as gospel -test everything. If the OP is hearing conflicting opinions in the church, then maybe the pastor's specific role wasn't quite as established as one might think. Maybe the pastor IS doing whatever w/o the direct permission of the governing board --most boards don't expect the PASTOR to consult them for every phrase he utters. Even church leadership is prone to communication problems. And if there are issues, then yeah, she needs to take it to the pastor himself. i would also be very careful about referring to the flock as pew-warmers. Like the pastor's role, we rarely have insight as to the struggles/responsibilities people are facing on a daily basis, and a chance to sit in peace and be spiritually fed may be the one highlight of their week. Unless it's by someone who sees them merely as a pew-warmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Many people assume that a pastor only "works" a few hours a week because the only time they actually *see* him working is when he is in the pulpit or visiting the flock. In reality, there is MUCH more to it than that. People who've never done it have NO IDEA what is involved in sermon preparation. Hours of prayer and study go into each and every message a pastor delivers. Like the pastor you mentioned, dh doesn't attend Sunday School either. He spends that time in prayer and meditation before the worship service/sermon. And that is in addition to the praying that he does for the individual situations of each family in the church. I can't even being to tell you how many hours my dh spends in prayer for the people in our church, as well as their extended families. I can't tell you how many times he has been called away from our own family to go and minister to others. As a matter of fact, RIGHT NOW, he is at the hospital with a church member whose son has been injured in a freak accident. I took the phone call this morning when the father called to ask dh to meet him at the hospital. Dh had been planning to take the morning off and spend it at home with us -- the first time off he's had in at least 2 weeks! Believe me, NO ONE -- absolutely NO ONE -- can tell from the outside the weight that a pastor carries and how much "work" he's doing. It is ENORMOUS, because he is carrying the spiritual burdens of an entire congregation! I could tell you story after story after story that illustrates this -- like the time dh had to officiate at the funeral when dear parishioners' only son committed suicide at the age of 15 -- after having stolen dh's truck (while dh was making a pastoral visit to the boy & his family) and then being sent to drug rehab. Or the time he was called to come back early from our first family vacation in years because the minister of music at our former church had revealed to the deacons that he had AIDS as a result of a homosexual relationship. Or the time he was called to minister to a family who was involved in a car accident that caused permanent brain injury to the teenage daughter, and injured the pregnant mother so that she gave birth permaturely to a blind & crippled baby. Or the times he was called to minister to three different families in which the head of the family had sexually abused young girls living in the home. The latter was probably the most difficult set of circumstances because legally, dh could not talk about the situations, and people in the congregation didn't even know what was going on until much, much later. I could go on and on, but the point is that situations like these are the kinds of things that pastors deal with EVERY.DAY. I say, give the pastor in question the benefit of the doubt. It is very likely that he is dealing with situations of which the congregation is completely unaware. I agree with the majority of this post. However, I've been on the youth committee when it was discovered that our youth guy was spending most of his time playing video games. Over time, it was revealed that he wasn't truely teaching the youth on Sunday mornings during class time. They were messing around a lot. He wouldn't do devotionals because the kids didn't want to. He wasn't leading, nurturing, or teaching our kiddoes at all...and getting paid a quite nice salary. I was one of the lucky ones who got to be on the committee to steer this young minister back to doing what his contract stated. That was a difficult and stressful job, let me tell you. I totally agree with being careful about those 'pew-warmers', too. They often have stress in their personal lives which isn't widely known. they also often have wisdom in what really 'should' be happening, but isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetpeach Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 "A pastor's job is not to do ministry; a pastor's ONLY job is to equip YOU to do ministry. *That* is the job description of a pastor. Many pastors say that their job is to do ministry; they're WRONG. It's not to do ministry; it's to equip others to minister." What say you? If this is the true thing, I'm pretty sure our pastors didn't get the memo. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trivium Academy Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 In order to minister to someone else, a pastor must live by example. If s/he's not partaking in the ministry then s/he will not be able to convince others to do the same. You can be a part of the ministry without leading it, the ministry of the church belongs to the church, a pastor shouldn't 'run' it but should be involved according to his or her strengths (gifts). Not that I think pastors are blameless and sinless but I think of Jesus. He said follow me, he didn't say do what I tell you to do and ignore what I do. Isn't it every Christian's yearning to be like Jesus? In my opinion, a pastor is someone who has dedicated their life to following Jesus and has a gift of sharing the good news, as Jesus would have them do. If a pastor is not spreading Jesus' message by following Jesus' example as much as they can- how effective can that person be as a minister to others? To be clear, I'm not talking legalism or that pastors should be held to an impossible standard but no one forces a pastor to become a pastor- it should be out of a calling, a passion for Jesus, a use of God's gifts to glorify God. Now there are two types of churches- first are the chapels where people gather weekly (or more often) to worship God and then go back home to their lives. The church is for social gatherings and it makes everyone feel good. Then there are churches where there is a true gathering of individuals yearning for God and wish to do all they can for each other and their community. I believe most churches are a mix of chapel and church. I'm not 100% sure where to place the mega-churches b/c I've never been to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) There is nothing wrong w/ vetting whether something IS EVEN a concern. I don't see that I mentioned OP's right to ask about her concern. She is welcome to; that is what these boards are for. i don't think that people "enjoy" criticizing their pastor, *You* may not think so, but I,unfortunately, am well aware of many that enjoy this immensely. I see it as a sick personality trait. You are so very blessed that you haven't encountered this attitude. but like any other Christian we ARE called to hold even him accountable, Yes, as Christians we are, but there is a proper way to do this, certain channels that need to be gone through first and an understanding of if there is even an issue to hold him accountable to in the first place and I wanted to make sure that the OP addressed her concerns to the pastor himself and then to the governing board if necessary. Because she didn't mention that she had done this and she didn't mention it as even a possibility. This is the Biblical directive, not mine. I would hope that seminary DOES do SOMETHING to prepare a pastor for the critiquing he will receive, no? Yes, I'm sure it does, but the wife and children are not afforded such preparation. (unless the wife attended seminary as well, but that is not a requirement in all denominations) Wouldn't it be nice if those that choose to critique would remember that the pastor is also a husband and father and their sometimes unfounded criticism effects the family deeply . That's a far cry from "running his life." When OP states what this pastor's schedule is, down to what he does in his off-time, and finding fault with it, she is saying he is not running his life (schedule is life) the way she would see fit, no? And, this "running his life" statement by me was made in conjunction with the comment that many enjoy criticizing the pastor; those same people think they have the right to run the pastor's life because the church gives him a paycheck. These people see themselves as the employer and the pastor as the employee and thus they believe they have the right to run this life. We don't need to bite the hand that feeds us [spiritually], but neither are we called to take EVERYTHING they say as gospel -test everything. I agree with this. My post did not say a thing about taking everything the pastor says as gospel, but again....we are back to taking this issue up with the pastor himself. We should ask for clarification from him. Perhaps we misunderstood him? Perhaps we need to check and see if these beliefs of the pastor that we question are actually 'ok' in this particular denomination and we are not aware of it? Perhaps we need to check with the church governing body and ask them if, indeed, the pastor was out-of-line. These are the steps to take. Each church is so different, you need to question and ask...but within the steps scripture clearly outlines for us to do so. If the OP is hearing conflicting opinions in the church, then maybe the pastor's specific role wasn't quite as established as one might think. Maybe the pastor IS doing whatever w/o the direct permission of the governing board --most boards don't expect the PASTOR to consult them for every phrase he utters. Even church leadership is prone to communication problems. Exactly why I suggested that she take this issue to the governing board. They may have missed what she caught, and if it *is* indeed an issue that needs to be addressed, they will do so and get back with her (as I stated in my post) And if there are issues, then yeah, she needs to take it to the pastor himself. But see, she needs to do this first, before going to the governing board. The Bible says if you have an issue/disagreement with someone, you need to take it to them first, and then taking it to the body (governing board) would be the next step. Once again, all listed in my post. i would also be very careful about referring to the flock as pew-warmers. Like the pastor's role, we rarely have insight as to the struggles/responsibilities people are facing on a daily basis, and a chance to sit in peace and be spiritually fed may be the one highlight of their week. Unless it's by someone who sees them merely as a pew-warmer. I'm sorry, but I did not call anyone a pew-warmer in my post. I hope the above format works for you to read my responses. I'm not sure how to respond to the multiple quote thingy. Actually, I'm not sure exactly, Peek, what you are saying in your post that is contrary to what I said in mine except for the fact that I told the OP she should follow the Biblical mandate to clear up her issue with what the pastor said. Did you have a problem with that? As I said, *I* don't agree with his statement unless he would take out the word ONLY. Then I don't have a problem with it, but the OP obviously does; and not only with this one statement of her pastor's, but also with the way he does his job and his life schedule. She needs to take up these concerns with the pastor himself and/or the church governing board to get the scoop straight from those that have the authority and knowledge surrounding her concerns. Edited February 16, 2009 by Katia forgot to 'bold' something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) follow the Biblical mandate to clear up her issue with what the pastor said. She needs to take up these concerns with the pastor himself and/or the church governing board to get the scoop straight from those that have the authority and knowledge surrounding her concerns. This often results in fifty people nibbling the poor minister to death. Yes, it ought to be a wake up call if fifty people are saying the same thing, but they often aren't. This can have the opposite effect of creating a very defensive wall within the minister so that it is hard to listen to anyone. It is a hard call. In general, I believe you are right, but I feel sorry for the chap who has to listen to everyone, too. Our worship minister laughs with me (because we are good friends) when I tell him that the building is freezing on Sunday mornings. His job is to set the thermostats. He says for every time I tell him that there is another person tellimg me it's hot when he turns the heat up. These days, I wear pants and a sweater. lol Finding a balancing act is a difficult thing. I found the same thing when I headed up our women's ministry...for every women who requested one thing, there was another asking for just the opposite. Made me nuts. :D Church would be a fine place without all those pesky people in it. ;) I dearly love the men and women who serve as paid and unpaid ministers to our church. I need to remind them of that today. Edited February 16, 2009 by Happy add one more sentence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) I hope the above format works for you to read my responses. I'm not sure how to respond to the multiple quote thingy. Actually, I'm not sure exactly, Peek, what you are saying in your post that is contrary to what I said in mine except for the fact that I told the OP she should follow the Biblical mandate to clear up her issue with what the pastor said. Did you have a problem with that? As I said, *I* don't agree with his statement unless he would take out the word ONLY. Then I don't have a problem with it, but the OP obviously does; and not only with this one statement of her pastor's, but also with the way he does his job and his life schedule. She needs to take up these concerns with the pastor himself and/or the church governing board to get the scoop straight from those that have the authority and knowledge surrounding her concerns. I don't have a problem w/ following Biblical mandate --it seems as tho you were confusing discussion HERE to clarify whether it's even an issue as going AGAINST Biblical mandate. So it appears that on one hand you agree that this is a proper venue for discussing the concern to flesh out what the concern really is, but then chastise the discussion for going against the Biblical mandate...??? And honestly, we don't know if this comment came FROM her approaching the pastor first, then elders, and now trying to figure out what to do since she's gotten no clear resolution from following the chain of command, or whether she indeed needs to take her Q to the pastor. The schedule was given because there was some question as to his role in the church. That's not gossiping or criticizing. It may very well be that he's posted it himself so people know the best times to reach him. And while I've met plenty of people that SEEM to enjoy criticizing other people -pastor or no, Christian or no-- I am hesitant to go so far as to say they literally enjoy it. i find those types of people often have a worrywart complex more than a seeking-joy-in-criticizing complex. I will absolutely agree that some people have an ability to notice faults or concerns ;) I understand that the families might not be ready for the extra critiquing and attention that a pastor gets, but it is indeed part of the burden of BEING a pastor. My point is that they should have been made aware of this at seminary and considered the effect it has on families. But that's not really what the OP's discussion is about. and right -- I know you didn't mention the pew-warmers comment, but you agreed whole-heartedly w/ it, so i guess my comment would be directed to both of you and anyone else agreeing w/ it. we probably don't disagree on much here really --we're simply offering different phrases on the same topic. There's a lot we probably don't know about what the OP has or has not already done. eta: altho post #10 sounds like this pastor has already been approached. several times. Edited February 16, 2009 by Peek a Boo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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