Problems with CC- Is this the New Normal?

[LinRTX]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

However, I have one comment: not using a graphing calculator is not a sign of a weak math education. I have a PhD in theoretical physics and have never used one, nor have either of my kids who both have physics degrees.

Actually I would say using a graphing calculator in high school and the entry math classes in college is indicative of a weak math program. After tutoring at a public high school for two years even the students taking the highest level classes and getting A's rely on the calculator and do not understand what they are doing.

[KungFuPanda]

29 minutes ago, LinRTX said:

Actually I would say using a graphing calculator in high school and the entry math classes in college is indicative of a weak math program. After tutoring at a public high school for two years even the students taking the highest level classes and getting A's rely on the calculator and do not understand what they are doing.

 

I work at a community college that’s ranked second in the state and 92nd in the country. I’m not hearing the syllabus troubles and complaints about disorderliness that the op describes.  We do get kids who will switch sections when they don’t like the professor but it doesn’t seem to be a school-wide issue. 
 

They are in the process of re-doing the course codes to make it very easy to tell the difference between self-paced online classes and those where you log in at precise times. Even though it’s spelled out in the course description people sometimes register for something they don’t want because they got confused.

DH taught some math classes at this school 25 years ago. He got super annoyed that he was forced to use the graphing calculators in his class. He was evaluated on technology use and he felt strongly that it was a crutch.  The textbooks were written by Texas Instruments and that didn’t sit well with him either. He started creating test questions where you could use the calculator but it didn’t really help if you didn’t understand the problem. He even argued that chalk and a chalkboard ARE technology but the evaluators didn’t care for that.  He got tired of stressed out nursing students crying to him when they started to fail algebra and didn’t stay there too long.  When he switched from government work to contracting he dropped the side gig. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

As they should. 

Absolutely.  We are spending next week organising retakes of class tests. In some cases the students were ill on the original dates, but in other cases there were circumstances around the test where the department accidentally put them at a disadvantage, so the student can choose to retake.

[Roadrunner]

Quality of CCs varies substantially in my experience. Some CCs in CA are absolutely excellent. But some more rural ones (like ours sadly) aren’t. I think Covid made things much worse. I worry that the quality lost during Covid is now impossible to regain.

[regentrude]

24 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think Covid made things much worse. I worry that the quality lost during Covid is now impossible to regain.

One big issue with Covid for colleges is that the quality of the highschool education suffered greatly. Students are less well academically prepared (the math we see is frightening), and more students have mental health problems. I have been teaching the same course for over 20 years, and it is no longer possible to teach at the same level as back then. We have a complete record of all the past exams, and even students have commented that today's exams are significantly easier than the exams from a decade ago. 

Attendance is down, resilience is down, attention span and reading comprehension are down, math skills have scary gaps. It is impossible to hold them to the same standards as we did before. But we have to teach the students we get and not the ones we wish we had. And yes, it short-changes the strong students who aren't adequately challenged. It's incredibly frustrating for instructors. My colleagues see the same issues across disciplines. 

 

Edited April 14 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

49 minutes ago, regentrude said:

One big issue with Covid for colleges is that the quality of the highschool education suffered greatly. Students are less well academically prepared (the math we see is frightening), and more students have mental health problems. I have been teaching the same course for over 20 years, and it is no longer possible to teach at the same level as back then. We have a complete record of all the past exams, and even students have commented that today's exams are significantly easier than the exams from a decade ago. 

Attendance is down, resilience is down, attention span and reading comprehension are down, math skills have scary gaps. It is impossible to hold them to the same standards as we did before. But we have to teach the students we get and not the ones we wish we had. And yes, it short-changes the strong students who aren't adequately challenged. It's incredibly frustrating for instructors. My colleagues see the same issues across disciplines. 

 

I think this is the heart of the issue. High school is failing proposition these day, and it comes on the heels of an elementary education that is an utter failure in imparting a firm foundation to students so they can handle higher expectations which is followed by a spin-the-wheels middle school. 

Only about 20% of our local high school students are realistically college material in terms of truly being capable of doing the work that should be considered college level, but 50-60% or more apply to and attend college because there is so little work available without a degree. A job that comes with actual health insurance and some sort of account for saving retirement is not taking high school diploma kids. Almost no employers within the trades offers benefits. Everyone in the trades here are 1099 contractors who have to figure it out themselves and operation costs are very high. Everyone says "look at what the trades bill for their work, go into the trades" and then encounter several things:

1. Trades are nearly always, apart from say house painting, landscaping, that type of thing, related to public safety. So there are strict rules, difficult programs to complete. To wink at kids who are struggling academically and tell them that they can go into trades is just such a lie. The 2 year program for automotive requires algebra, mechanical engineering topics, high reading comprehension skills (ever read an actual automotive mechanic manual? Uhm....very tehcnical). The electrical journeyman program requires solid algebra 1 and 2, basic geometry, physics and some chemistry, VERY high reading comprehension skills, etc. Only 12 people out of every 200 who begin the program in my state actually pass the licensing exam. The year our daughter entered EMT training, of the 37 people in the room who took the entrance exam and had to write the two required essays, only 3 were admitted to the program. Med math and the demonstrated communications skills to fill out medical field reports were sorely lacking. The contractor's exam is NOT for the feint of heart and those who struggle to test well. Solar technician, same thing. Dental hygienist has a high failure rate. Same for many other programs like lab tech, paramedic school, radiologist assistant. So it is a total lie and disservice to kids to say, "If you struggle in academics, the trades are for you."

2. Nearly all the start up costs of being involved in the trades are on the student to come up with. The required tools for entrance to the CC/tech school for the diesel mechanic program is $3500 not paid for by any financial aid or scholarship. This is not the only program with high costs of attendance. While some states do offer financial.aid for paramedic school, ours does not, and the current cost of the program is $8000 plus uniforms, not eligible for the student loan program.

3. Most trades programs are over hyped, over admitted so they tend to flood areas with a whole bunch of mechanics, a whole bunch of mechatronics techs, a whole bunch of cosmetologists, a whole bunch of vet techs, a ton of dental hygienists, a bunch of plumbers, and there is no work for them, no employers to hire them. The cost of operating a business of this nature is so high, employers run on skeleton crews because it is more profitable even if the wait times are a huge frustration to customers. Commercial construction companies pay a lot better and come with benefits. But, where climates/weather do not allow for working on structures like roofs, painting and exterior finish work, paving and sealing driveways, etc. 12 months per year, these jobs come with a lay off every Nov. - March, and so the worker has to budget for being on unemployment 4 months every year. This is RARELY disclosed to students at the beginning of the program.

And every one of these programs require reading comprehension at a college level, memorization skills, board exams, significant numeracy skills. The answer to our broke education system and high number of kids for whom a four year degree is not a good fit or unattainable is not "trades". The answer is to fix the dang education system so that students have the choice of a plethora of programs to choose from for an employment future with high success rates, and universal healthcare to take that expense off of employers while legislating some other changes that are pro-small business, and not pro-wealth hoarding corporations.

The large percentage of our local students who do not apply to and attend college but also flunk out of trades and professional licensing programs are pretty much doomed to being the low paid, low appreciated, no benefits workers that corporate overlords like Walmart, McDonalds,  and others, especially retail, just love. Under-pay because " reasons", perpetually part-time so no health insurance and no retirement plans, and all that goes with it. Yes, the local Taco Bell advertises every day that they have openings, tuition reimbursement, health insurance for full time workers, etc. But that is just false advertising like all the others. They claim to the government that they can't find full time workers and this generation will not commit so they are not deserving anyway. The reality is their workers beg to be put on full time so they can get the benefits. The only full time workers the regional managers are willing to approve, the franchise owners are willing to actually pay, are the manager on each shift. Even the assistant managers are part time. Sam's Club only gives full time hours for 3 months prior to Christmas, and then cuts everyone but management back to 30 or less per week so that no worker ever gets past their 90 day probationary period as a full time worker to become eligible for those benefits. It is a racket, and corporate America is very invested in having a broken educational system as an excuse to treat workers this way, and we need to ask ourselves if we should be a nation so invested in the worship of capitalism and the promotion of wealth hoarding that this is the economic engine we prefer for our children, grand children, and great grand children.

Part and parcel of what is happening, what colleges and CC's, and tech schools. and professional licensing programs are seeing is the political influence of corporate America on the education system of the country. I can't say more about that due to board rules, but as always in the USA, follow the money trail to find out WHO is making the asshat decisions that continues to make K-12 education ever more broken and why they are doing it.

Of course, as usual, I am preaching to the choir because this is the choir that chose to remove their children from the broken system to homeschool or took upon themselves after schooling or private schooling in order to give their children a leg up, a better foundation, a path with many, many options. You get it. But we represent just a small number of parents capable of and willing to buck the system. I don't have a clue anymore how to create meaningful change on behalf of the rest of America's kids. I am even less clueless of what would need to be done for our hivers in other nations who face similar issues.

As always, some of this is very state and region oriented. There are always places doing better, and ones even worse. So that is a big part of the equation in a nation with 50 states and a bunch of territories where when something is done well, it isn't capable of spreading that success though seems quite good at spreading chaos and brokenness.

[Clemsondana]

My older has taken 6 DE classes from 2 CCs and found that variation is huge.  5 of the classes were online due to scheduling difficulty, and even within that group the experience is not the same. 

In the humanities classes, kid's biggest complaint is that the classes seemed designed to encourage cheating.  Texts were online, so it was simple to search the text while taking a quiz if one was inclined to do so.  I know that one can do that with a book, but it's easier to copy the unknown term to the search bar than it is to scan 100 pages of textbook.  Kid thought 2 of the 3 humanities classes were reasonably OK, and it's hard to say otherwise - Psych 101 is pretty easy at most schools.  There was some complaint about a British Lit class - they were assigned a specific version of the text, but the quiz questions sometimes came from online quiz sources that used different versions or translations, such that the term or description wasn't present in the assigned version of the text.  Although there were a few deadline issues, it was mostly OK and of the sort that is easy to work with - forgetting to post an assignment, so allowing a few extra days to finish. 

The online physics and calc 3 were a real challenge.  I had worried about the physics lab, but that was actually reasonably done - dropping items or rolling them down inclines can be done at home and is on par with what I remember doing as a student.  But, these classes involved a ton of self-teaching, with no book or video lecture (there were little snippet lectures linked to certain homework problems, which could help but gave no context or big picture).  The calc class was reasonable, with quick responses from the managing instructor (the course itself was part of a state-wide ecampus program).  The midterm and final were taken at the campus testing center.  The physics was a real challenge.  There was minimal feedback - you could see your grade, but had to ask to even find out what problems you missed on tests.  There was no partial credit - on one test kid miscalculated the first part of a problem and subsequently missed the next 2 subparts (done correctly, but using the wrong answer from part 1), so earned a 75%.  Despite earning As on every other assignment and test, kid went into the final knowing that if a single question was missed kid would likely earn a B in the class.  Kid was incredibly relieved to earn an A, but it seemed absurd that missing 2 questions in a semester (in which there were multiple tests) would be enough to pull your grade to a B.  We did think it was good that the homework was self-checking and you had multiple tries to get each question right - it encouraged students to work until they could do most of it.  

After that, kid decided to take the next physics class in person.  Kid has found it to be very well done - much easier and less stress, but mostly because there is actual teaching and ability to ask questions.  The instructor has had to make changes to the schedule and syllabus - there was a week of snow closure, and also an event on campus that caused classes to be canceled.  It's been handled in a very reasonable way, with some of the lab time being diverted to working problem sets and taking tests, and 2 short labs being done in one lab session.  It's all been clearly communicated.  The only complaint is that some work isn't graded promptly.  

There are big problems with unprepared students in classes.  My kid has been amazed that in easy classes assignments like 'make a discussion post on the topic, 2 paragraphs of at least 4 sentences each' lead to students writing 1 paragraph, or 2 paragraphs of 2 sentences each, or posts on the wrong topic.  But, there are also issues with too much self-teaching being required.  My younger kid has taken a couple of Derek Owens math classes, which are online, but involve teaching and reasonably prompt feedback on your work.  I recommend those classes to others looking for solid math instruction.  I would never recommend that anybody take the online math and physics classes at the CC.  I would recommend the in-person class, and would say that, at least for the classes that my kid took, the online humanities was fine - nothing spectacular, but 2 were 100-level classes, and those are usually pretty generic and easy no matter where you take them.  

 

 

[Corraleno]

54 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

they were assigned a specific version of the text, but the quiz questions sometimes came from online quiz sources that used different versions or translations, such that the term or description wasn't present in the assigned version of the text.

This was a problem with several of DD's classes that used multiple choice test banks that included questions that were either from a different edition or from sections that were not assigned for the class. I think part of the issue was that many of her classes allowed multiple tries on the quizzes, and each time you'd get a different set of randomly generated questions, increasing the odds of getting questions that weren't covered in the class, which in turn increased the incentive to take the quiz again in the hope of not getting too many rogue questions. And I think that knowing that they'd likely be taking the quiz multiple times anyway also decreased the incentive to study, because kids figured they'd just keep taking it until they got an acceptable grade.

[Bootsie]

I teach mostly juniors and seniors.  My colleagues and I are seeing things we had not encountered in the past--students not putting their names on exams (or putting "Michael" when there are 200 students in the class), filling out Scantrons in pen, scribbling and scratching out answers on a Scantron, going to the classroom for office hours, asking what to do if they aren't sure if the answer is A or B, asking if they can get partial credit for a T/F question...  Not are we only seeing weak math and study skills, we are seeing a general lack of knowledge of how to be a student.  (We even had a group of students petition the dean asking that all faculty be required to provide a copy of the exam and answer key before exams were given so that they could study!)

This semester an adjunct professor in my department was terminated in the middle of the semester-I have never seen this happen before--but the individual's teaching, class atttendance, grading, etc. was so atrocious, that a recently retired faculty member has been rehired to finish the semester.

So, I have seen major shifts on both sides of the classroom experience

 

 

Edited April 14 by Bootsie

[Shelydon]

23 hours ago, regentrude said:

What you write about English sounds atrocious.

However, I have one comment: not using a graphing calculator is not a sign of a weak math education. I have a PhD in theoretical physics and have never used one, nor have either of my kids who both have physics degrees.

This is true.  In this particular case, it was because they did not have the basics of Algebra and had never done any sort of graphing on paper or a calculator.  My kids all get a graphing calculator for Alg 2 once they have the hang of doing things on paper.  It is just faster

23 hours ago, regentrude said:

As they should. 

It was a good call in this case.  Often students complain about dumb things, but this complaint was warranted.

[Roadrunner]

8 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

My older has taken 6 DE classes from 2 CCs and found that variation is huge.  5 of the classes were online due to scheduling difficulty, and even within that group the experience is not the same. 

In the humanities classes, kid's biggest complaint is that the classes seemed designed to encourage cheating.  Texts were online, so it was simple to search the text while taking a quiz if one was inclined to do so.  I know that one can do that with a book, but it's easier to copy the unknown term to the search bar than it is to scan 100 pages of textbook.  Kid thought 2 of the 3 humanities classes were reasonably OK, and it's hard to say otherwise - Psych 101 is pretty easy at most schools.  There was some complaint about a British Lit class - they were assigned a specific version of the text, but the quiz questions sometimes came from online quiz sources that used different versions or translations, such that the term or description wasn't present in the assigned version of the text.  Although there were a few deadline issues, it was mostly OK and of the sort that is easy to work with - forgetting to post an assignment, so allowing a few extra days to finish. 

The online physics and calc 3 were a real challenge.  I had worried about the physics lab, but that was actually reasonably done - dropping items or rolling them down inclines can be done at home and is on par with what I remember doing as a student.  But, these classes involved a ton of self-teaching, with no book or video lecture (there were little snippet lectures linked to certain homework problems, which could help but gave no context or big picture).  The calc class was reasonable, with quick responses from the managing instructor (the course itself was part of a state-wide ecampus program).  The midterm and final were taken at the campus testing center.  The physics was a real challenge.  There was minimal feedback - you could see your grade, but had to ask to even find out what problems you missed on tests.  There was no partial credit - on one test kid miscalculated the first part of a problem and subsequently missed the next 2 subparts (done correctly, but using the wrong answer from part 1), so earned a 75%.  Despite earning As on every other assignment and test, kid went into the final knowing that if a single question was missed kid would likely earn a B in the class.  Kid was incredibly relieved to earn an A, but it seemed absurd that missing 2 questions in a semester (in which there were multiple tests) would be enough to pull your grade to a B.  We did think it was good that the homework was self-checking and you had multiple tries to get each question right - it encouraged students to work until they could do most of it.  

After that, kid decided to take the next physics class in person.  Kid has found it to be very well done - much easier and less stress, but mostly because there is actual teaching and ability to ask questions.  The instructor has had to make changes to the schedule and syllabus - there was a week of snow closure, and also an event on campus that caused classes to be canceled.  It's been handled in a very reasonable way, with some of the lab time being diverted to working problem sets and taking tests, and 2 short labs being done in one lab session.  It's all been clearly communicated.  The only complaint is that some work isn't graded promptly.  

There are big problems with unprepared students in classes.  My kid has been amazed that in easy classes assignments like 'make a discussion post on the topic, 2 paragraphs of at least 4 sentences each' lead to students writing 1 paragraph, or 2 paragraphs of 2 sentences each, or posts on the wrong topic.  But, there are also issues with too much self-teaching being required.  My younger kid has taken a couple of Derek Owens math classes, which are online, but involve teaching and reasonably prompt feedback on your work.  I recommend those classes to others looking for solid math instruction.  I would never recommend that anybody take the online math and physics classes at the CC.  I would recommend the in-person class, and would say that, at least for the classes that my kid took, the online humanities was fine - nothing spectacular, but 2 were 100-level classes, and those are usually pretty generic and easy no matter where you take them.  

 

 

We had similar experience with physics classes. But I will say that even now at a four year school, a couple of problems can really cost you a grade. My kid’s physics midterm had three questions. The grade in the class is based on two midterms and one final. 
 

What we found is upper division math and physics had the most motivated kids. Those were students hoping to transfer into engineering to four year schools. The classes were always spilt into kids who were excellent (maybe 10% of the class) and everybody else struggling. Almost no middle. 
The biggest issue is kids just want a paper. Most think what matters isn’t knowledge, but a paper that says you earned a credit. Well a credit without knowledge is worthless. But if you don’t understand it, you cheat. And cheating in online classes is rampant. 

[KungFuPanda]

I’m wondering if the decline in student function isn’t so much the pandemic effect but the fact that the kids who have had access to the Internet at their fingertips their WHOLE lives have finally reached college. It’s so bad for their attention spans. It’s no wonder they can barely stay focused long enough to cut and past an answer. 
 

Of course my kids had the internet their whole lives, but it just wasn’t as compelling or easily accessible when they were little. They did Webkins on a shared family computer. They had paper books for school and entire days without screen time. The generation behind them had so much more content aimed at them and instantly available. They had streaming and YouTube and information so quick to look up that many of them don’t know what a sustained search for knowledge feels like. They had the dream of instant knowledge but not the brain development to do hard, time consuming things.  They count escape the screens if they wanted to. 

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’m wondering if the decline in student function isn’t so much the pandemic effect but the fact that the kids who have had access to the Internet at their fingertips their WHOLE lives have finally reached college. It’s so bad for their attention spans. It’s no wonder they can barely stay focused long enough to cut and past an answer. 

I agree this is most likely a factor for sure, but also, the COVID part of the pandemic gets largely ignored. This is a pandemic disease well known to affect brain function. A lot of the problems described fall under what gets colloquially termed as “brain fog” and is a very common post Covid effect. Same with mental illness.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’m wondering if the decline in student function isn’t so much the pandemic effect but the fact that the kids who have had access to the Internet at their fingertips their WHOLE lives have finally reached college

My kids had iPads with no parental access from a young age. They are now college age, 18 and 19. During the pandemic, kids who are academically proficient and kids who have parents consistently after schooling are going to cope better with the sudden switch to online schooling. I had internet access since 1989, 11th grade. Unlimited internet access in engineering school. While internet access is a factor, the pandemic just make kids who are already behind more behind. It also makes cheating easier and more tempting. There was a Reddit thread venting about college students “demanding” for exams to be online because they don’t want to come on campus to do the exams. The person venting is a student venting about his classmates. People replying said that most likely those students want to cheat. 

[Laura Corin]

Various factors to what we see among students - UK and international.  

- students who have never taken an in-person essay based exam because of Covid are very anxious about that

- they are used to having recorded lectures that they can re-watch, so are unused to attending in person, taking notes and asking questions 

- confusion in terminology between being a bit anxious/down and having anxiety/depression. This makes it very hard for the university to identify students who desperately need help

- and yes, probably some cheating in online tests, putting honest students at a disadvantage. 

[Clemsondana]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

We had similar experience with physics classes. But I will say that even now at a four year school, a couple of problems can really cost you a grade. My kid’s physics midterm had three questions. The grade in the class is based on two midterms and one final. 
 

What we found is upper division math and physics had the most motivated kids. Those were students hoping to transfer into engineering to four year schools. The classes were always spilt into kids who were excellent (maybe 10% of the class) and everybody else struggling. Almost no middle. 
The biggest issue is kids just want a paper. Most think what matters isn’t knowledge, but a paper that says you earned a credit. Well a credit without knowledge is worthless. But if you don’t understand it, you cheat. And cheating in online classes is rampant. 

I had a class like that, too, but they gave partial credit.  It varies between schools and disciplines, but in my classes and those of most people I know classes tended to be either test with a few problems where partial credit was given or tests with a decent number of questions but no partial credit (often because it was a big class with multiple choice).  It was pretty unusual for an intro class to have only 4 questions with no partial credit on a test.  But, it was all made more frustrating by the fact that students were teaching themselves with little feedback other than whether their auto-graded homework was right or wrong.  You got 3 shots at each homework question, but if you didn't get it in 3 then you didn't get credit and also didn't get an explanation.  And there was the test where I'm guessing the program chose questions from a test bank and included a question that wasn't part of the assigned material.  This is one of the few issues that the instructor responded to promptly.  Then there was the homework (not worth much, but every point counts) that the instructor accidentally had due in a different time zone, so that when students submitted it at 11:01 pm it was scored as late and no credit despite being an hour before the usual due date.  Kid emailed the instructor with a time stamped homework but it wasn't changed.  I'm not terribly sympathetic to kids complaining about tech glitches, but having one assignment set to a different time zone than everything else for the semester seems like an instructor mistake, not something that students should be expecting  It was a situation where no one thing was a huge deal, but it seemed like every glitch penalized the students - when I teach, I try to avoid that.    

[Farrar]

Because of my work with kids preparing for college, I hear a lot about community colleges nationwide. I am consistently impressed by some of them. There are some amazing community colleges out there. But also, I've heard a million abysmal stories about disorganized syllabi, absent professors, and poor instruction.

I find that art, music, and upper level math and science at "good" community colleges tend to be the best courses. Also, that if you can get into a CC honors program, that's often where the core of motivated kids taking more regular gen eds are, as well as the good professors.

College enrollment is generally down and a lot of CC's are struggling to make ends meet as a result. While I agree that students are struggling for a lot of the reasons being discussed here, I see CC's as the bigger issue. They struggle to meet enrollment/financial goals, so they cut quality, so they struggle to attract more students because quality dipped, and round and round down the drain. I see it as a growing issue.

Edited April 15 by Farrar

[Drama Llama]

On 4/13/2024 at 7:28 PM, regentrude said:

What you write about English sounds atrocious.

However, I have one comment: not using a graphing calculator is not a sign of a weak math education. I have a PhD in theoretical physics and have never used one, nor have either of my kids who both have physics degrees.

Not using a graphing calculator because you do the graphing by hand is very different from not using a graphing calculator because you uploaded a photo of the problem into Easymath or another math app.  I am guessing you and your kids don’t do the latter.  

[Clemsondana]

On 4/13/2024 at 7:28 PM, regentrude said:

What you write about English sounds atrocious.

However, I have one comment: not using a graphing calculator is not a sign of a weak math education. I have a PhD in theoretical physics and have never used one, nor have either of my kids who both have physics degrees.

When my kid prepped for the AP Calc BC exam, we saw that a graphing calculator was on the 'stuff to bring' list.  We bought one, but kid had never used one before that.  AoPS doesn't require one to work through their books and kid had used that program for much of high school math.  So, we went out and got one and kid figured out how to use it.  After taking the test, kid said that there was really no need for a calculator if you knew how to math.  🙂  There may have been some arithmetic done on one, but nothing that required graphing.  I have my frustrations with AoPS, but I did appreciate that they gave answers in messy forms so that kids didn't get into the habit of punching in everything so that they got answers with decimals with no idea how they got it.  

[KungFuPanda]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:55 AM, Faith-manor said:

 

2. Nearly all the start up costs of being involved in the trades are on the student to come up with. The required tools for entrance to the CC/tech school for the diesel mechanic program is $3500 not paid for by any financial aid or scholarship. This is not the only program with high costs of attendance. While some states do offer financial.aid for paramedic school, ours does not, and the current cost of the program is $8000 plus uniforms, not eligible for the student loan program.

 

And every one of these programs require reading comprehension at a college level, memorization skills, board exams, significant numeracy skills. The answer to our broke education system and high number of kids for whom a four year degree is not a good fit or unattainable is not "trades". The answer is to fix the dang education system so that students have the choice of a plethora of programs to choose from for an employment future with high success rates, and universal healthcare to take that expense off of employers while legislating some other changes that are pro-small business, and not pro-wealth hoarding corporations.

I want to discuss your second point. Where I work there are paid apprenticeship programs sponsored by businesses who need the people. There are also funding sources to help cover tuition for the classes that go with the program. A student may be eligible for financial aid, or supplemental grants, or be in a county that subsidizes our tuition so that the student can pay the lower in-county rate. Mentorship is part of the program and free tutoring is always available interesting center. 
 

The drawback is that the student has to have some aptitude and drive. No program is going to feel like scrolling the Internet or watching TV. You have to be an active participant with some hustle and organizational skills. 

[Farrar]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:55 AM, Faith-manor said:

2. Nearly all the start up costs of being involved in the trades are on the student to come up with. The required tools for entrance to the CC/tech school for the diesel mechanic program is $3500 not paid for by any financial aid or scholarship. This is not the only program with high costs of attendance. While some states do offer financial.aid for paramedic school, ours does not, and the current cost of the program is $8000 plus uniforms, not eligible for the student loan program.

3. Most trades programs are over hyped, over admitted so they tend to flood areas with a whole bunch of mechanics, a whole bunch of mechatronics techs, a whole bunch of cosmetologists, a whole bunch of vet techs, a ton of dental hygienists, a bunch of plumbers, and there is no work for them, no employers to hire them. The cost of operating a business of this nature is so high, employers run on skeleton crews because it is more profitable even if the wait times are a huge frustration to customers. Commercial construction companies pay a lot better and come with benefits. But, where climates/weather do not allow for working on structures like roofs, painting and exterior finish work, paving and sealing driveways, etc. 12 months per year, these jobs come with a lay off every Nov. - March, and so the worker has to budget for being on unemployment 4 months every year. This is RARELY disclosed to students at the beginning of the program.

I agree with several of your big points, but it hasn't been my experience that the cost of entering trades is always on the student. In some cases, definitely. But a lot of plumbing and electrical programs that I've heard about involve paid apprenticeships really early on. That's how my own brother became an electrician actually. And when the trade is housed in a community college, at least around me, students can use the same CC funding sources for them. I've even known students who have dual enrolled for the first intro level for some of these trades courses, which is nice that they can try them out, even if it's mostly a survey of what the job is in a one credit class.

As for the glut in people trained for trades, that's definitely true in some trades. Clearly there are a lot of young people who "want to work with animals" who train to be vet techs. It's an easy path to train. Not so easy to get a job. But there is a serious master plumber and electrician shortage in most areas. And an auto mechanic shortage in some places. I am just not seeing this glut of tradespeople that you're talking about for the most part. It can be hard to find someone to do these jobs sometimes.

Believe me you're preaching to the choir in general. Trades have a lot of potential downsides that students aren't really told about by people who are like, ooh, just go into a trade. And I think you're highlighting several of them. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I agree with several of your big points, but it hasn't been my experience that the cost of entering trades is always on the student. In some cases, definitely. But a lot of plumbing and electrical programs that I've heard about involve paid apprenticeships really early on. That's how my own brother became an electrician actually. And when the trade is housed in a community college, at least around me, students can use the same CC funding sources for them. I've even known students who have dual enrolled for the first intro level for some of these trades courses, which is nice that they can try them out, even if it's mostly a survey of what the job is in a one credit class.

As for the glut in people trained for trades, that's definitely true in some trades. Clearly there are a lot of young people who "want to work with animals" who train to be vet techs. It's an easy path to train. Not so easy to get a job. But there is a serious master plumber and electrician shortage in most areas. And an auto mechanic shortage in some places. I am just not seeing this glut of tradespeople that you're talking about for the most part. It can be hard to find someone to do these jobs sometimes.

Believe me you're preaching to the choir in general. Trades have a lot of potential downsides that students aren't really told about by people who are like, ooh, just go into a trade. And I think you're highlighting several of them. 

Yes, this can all be very regional. Unfortunately, my area does not really give much of a leg up in this regard at all. Costs are high. Licensing exams and annual fees are very high. DTE does do tuition free electrical journeyman program, and their journeymen make a lot of money. But, what kids don't understand is that the competition is insanely fierce, and most of the recent high school graduates that apply for the program fail the entrance exam. They also fail to understand that DTE does not need to hire a 1000 a year either. They don't seem to understand that not applying oneself in school will come back to haunt them if they want a job besides part time fast food or gas station attendant. My area is so anti-education, for the most part, that the parents spend a lot more time telling their kid to be belligerent and not do homework, not do the projects, not earn the all while maligning the teachers, that it isn't making the job of repairing a broken education system any easier.

And many of them do not understand how easy it is to be badly hurt on the job in some trades, and how little SS disability pays nor that apart from a few corporate trades jobs that everyone is vying for, they will need to purchase their own medical insurance. I just wish there was a way to get the messaging out there. We need trades, and in some areas, very very badly. But we need universal healthcare and better safety net too so that it is a fair risk for students to take.

Currently our biggest glut is cosmetology. There just aren't very many jobs in it, and by the time rent and supplies are paid, the net is low. I think there was a pretty big shift in my state, and many customers did not come back after the shut down lifted either because they got used to doing their own or adopted a simpler look, or the economics took over, and they could no longer afford it. Probably a combo of factors.