Phone call from my mom keeping me up

[saraha]

7 hours ago, maize said:

Something along the lines of:

"Hi mom,  I've thought about your suggestion that I call every Sunday; it's not going to work for me, my schedule is too variable and I don't want you to feel stressed if I don't get a call in. I'll just plan on continuing to communicate the way we have; feel free to call whenever you want, if I'm available to talk I'll pick up. 

Love you!"

I think this is what I’ll say when I call. It’s perfect

[YaelAldrich]

You definitely listen to @Rosie_0801and @Indigo Blueand @gardenmom5. They have personal experience with moms like yours. I do too but it's my MIL.

Keep YOUR boundaries just like you have been doing so wonderfully! You rock! Do not call to apologize or try to be heard because you know you won't be listened to or your feelings and thoughts acknowledged. Why waste your time and mental clarity!? 

Remind yourself you are a caring, kind, and wise woman. 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

 

I'm sorry - I know how frustrating it is.  I know you've shared details in previous threads, but I will often get confused with who said what.  And right now, I'm dealing with brain fog associated with eustacion tube dysfunction.  (my fault for trying to do a saline sinus rinse . . . ) ces't la vie.  (as long as I clears up before I have to fly . . . . . )

sending hugs.
the only way to win, is to refuse to play her mind games.  What you are winning is your sanity.

[wintermom]

Without taking into account any of the back history of the OP and her mother, having a set time for weekly chats with a parent can be effective - particularly when there is long-distance between parents and children. The parent and the child can both manage their expectations and have something to look forward to. They can ensure that they are available for the phone call and have some time to chat. My parents did this with their parents, and it worked well for many years. I've been doing this with my parents and it has been functioning really well. In both cases, parents lived long-distances from children.

If the time that the OP's mom has chosen actually works for the OP, it might be worth just trying this new method and see how it works. Yes, it was decided by the manipulative mother without any consultation from the child, which is far from ideal, but the actual concept might be useful for the OP. It certainly doesn't mean the OP must limit phone calls to just the weekly time. She can phone whenever she wants.

My mom and I both strive hard to be very positive and upbeat during these weekly chats, and they have never been an opportunity for my mom to control me, be critical of my only phoning once a week, bad-mouth me to anyone else, or anything mean or controlling. It's simply a way for us to plan our expectations and time so that we can stay in regular communication and respect each other's weekly schedule, whether that's busy or not busy. 

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

Without taking into account any of the back history of the OP and her mother, having a set time for weekly chats with a parent can be effective - particularly when there is long-distance between parents and children. The parent and the child can both manage their expectations and have something to look forward to. They can ensure that they are available for the phone call and have some time to chat. My parents did this with their parents, and it worked well for many years. I've been doing this with my parents and it has been functioning really well. In both cases, parents lived long-distances from children.

If the time that the OP's mom has chosen actually works for the OP, it might be worth just trying this new method and see how it works. Yes, it was decided by the manipulative mother without any consultation from the child, which is far from ideal, but the actual concept might be useful for the OP. It certainly doesn't mean the OP must limit phone calls to just the weekly time. She can phone whenever she wants.

My mom and I both strive hard to be very positive and upbeat during these weekly chats, and they have never been an opportunity for my mom to control me, be critical of my only phoning once a week, bad-mouth me to anyone else, or anything mean or controlling. It's simply a way for us to plan our expectations and time so that we can stay in regular communication and respect each other's weekly schedule, whether that's busy or not busy. 

Quoting myself to change my suggestion based on reading more of the OP's posts that Sundays are too busy for the weekly call, and a more flexible timing is better for her. 

@saraha You got this! 

 

[saraha]

Well, I called her. She’s not happy, and tried to lay the guilt on, but in the end I basically said I cannot commit to that. I can call when I’m available and you can call whenever you want. She said I don’t respond to voicemails fast enough and it drives her nuts, it drives her crazy when she can’t talk to me when she wants to, and she’s getting older now and if she can’t tell me something when she thinks of it, she’ll lose it 🙄 so I told her write it down and I promised to try to be more timely returning calls. She kept repeatedly saying I don’t want to bug you and your sister, she said it like five times, so when I could get a word in I said firmly “stop saying that, you do not bug me when you call. If I answer it means I have time to talk. If I don’t, I don’t, but you aren’t bugging me.” That stopped the talking for a hot second, then She changed tactic and started in with you and your sister this, you and your sister that and when I could I said “I have no idea what sisters schedule is like, but I know for me, you can call whenever. I will answer when I can and call you back when I can’t. My schedule right now is crazy and I can’t commit to a certain day and time. I stayed super calm and when she realized I wasn’t backing down she said  fine, she will be calling me on Sunday evenings before she goes to bed. I said “Ok, and I’ll answer if I can.” She sighed heavily, paused, and told me she thinks my aunt is dying. And she’s going to do what she can for her. Tell everyone I love them, bye and hung up the phone.

So. I guess that’s good. It’s ridiculous that I am a grown woman and still get sick at my stomach when I have to go against her. But, progress? I guess I’ll find out the first Sunday I can’t answer. Not sure what to do with that information about my aunt. I haven’t seen or talked to her in years and years because my mother was the gatekeeper and it’s a long story I didn’t figure out for years. 

[Forget-Me-Not]

Sounds like you did awesome! 

[saraha]

I am afraid the sigh means she’s taking time to reload. I guess she couldn’t think of anything fast enough so threw out there your aunt is dying, bye and hung up the phone. 🙄

[Kassia]

4 minutes ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

Sounds like you did awesome! 

I think so too!  Great job!  I totally understand that feeling you described, but hopefully it will get easier and also that you'll feel good with the boundaries you are setting.  ❤️  

[saraha]

I think every time she said I don’t want to bug you and your sister, I wonder if she means “ it bugs me when…”

[Ditto]

8 minutes ago, saraha said:

I am afraid the sigh means she’s taking time to reload. I guess she couldn’t think of anything fast enough so threw out there your aunt is dying, bye and hung up the phone. 🙄

First, you did a great job and I am really proud you.    Second,  yeah, I agree, she is reloading and will be developing a new plan.  I think that is exactly why she threw that out about your aunt (i was thinking that as I was reading it and am glad you picked up on it too).

[Ditto]

Just now, saraha said:

I think every time she said I don’t want to bug you and your sister, I wonder if she means “ it bugs me when…”

Yep.  

[SKL]

Next time she says she can't remember what she wants to tell you, invite her to send you a letter.

[saraha]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

Next time she says she can't remember what she wants to tell you, invite her to send you a letter.

I can’t! She’s still boycotting the post office!

her birthday is coming up, maybe I’ll get her a nice pad and pen to leave by the phone…

[Grace Hopper]

If she calls you and you do not pick up, she can always leave a voicemail and then you can remind her what she called about.

[Momof4sweetkids]

Maybe she's too old to learn but I wonder if something like voxer or Marco Polo could work? You would not be stuck on the phone, you could respond when you wanted. My mom and I only call with urgent medical stuff, otherwise we Marco polo. It's more personal than text because you can hear tone but still flexible.

Edited to add: I realize I am not addressing the difficulty of the situation but I think that was addressed well by others

Edited March 8 by Momof4sweetkids

[saraha]

That’s neat, I’ve never heard of those. She doesn’t have a cell phone though. No cell phone and no internet 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I can’t! She’s still boycotting the post office!

Hmm, what would she do if you decided to boycott the phone company?  😛

[gardenmom5]

I know she's always been difficult, but I'm wondering if the intensity of her behaviors is increasing?  I'm wondering if some of it is associated with mental decline?    you mentioned anxiety, but some of the other things you mentioned also made me think of depression.  very common in olders - especially if they are missing vital nutrients in their diets.  Or even as a side-effect of meds, either OTC or Rx.

 

mil would loop, some days she'd be grouchy and demanding, then she developed paranoia.  
it's funny that as my grandmother sank into dementia (caused by TIAs), she was easier to deal with as she lost her ability to function . . . . 

[saraha]

Could be. I would have no way of knowing. I’m pretty sure she’s always been very anxious in some ways that, looking back, explains a lot of behaviors I didn’t understand at the time. Knowing that she struggles with her mental health is why I haven’t done like my brother and just cut her off completely. It feels cruel to do it knowing there is an element she can’t control. But boy is it been a hard row to hoe

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, saraha said:

Could be. I would have no way of knowing. I’m pretty sure she’s always been very anxious in some ways that, looking back, explains a lot of behaviors I didn’t understand at the time. Knowing that she struggles with her mental health is why I haven’t done like my brother and just cut her off completely. It feels cruel to do it knowing there is an element she can’t control. But boy is it been a hard row to hoe

It really helped me with understanding this concept.

My mil lived with us for a year when starting when I was a brand new mother and still reeling from childhood trauma.  bad combination.  It was a very difficult time.  she was just ... .difficult.   20+ years later I had an experience with her that made me aware some things really were beyond her control because her brain was broken.  It helped me be a lot more patient with her towards the end of her life and focus on her better qualities.  I was better able to deal with her "moods".  I also had much better "dealing with difficult people" skills.

while I'm starting to think my grandmother was anxious and some of her controlling behaviors were likely based on that, she was also a mean, spiteful, and jealous person. and as is typical of narcissists - insecure.  Some of those were things that were in her control.   I didn't cut her off - But I seriously controlled contact.  

[Indigo Blue]

I was thinking about stuff you can’t control  (anxiety) vs spiteful and mean. I’ve posted before that my mom has anxiety. She could choose to make an effort to get help, but she chooses not to. The outward lying and being spiteful doesn’t stem from her anxiety in a lot of cases. The thing with her is, she is spiteful and mean but so much of it is hidden. I don’t cut her off, either. I just limit contact now and keep topics shallow as much as possible. I do recognize that some parts of her behavior, she just can’t change. 
 

About what Gardenmom said about being young and reeling from childhood trauma….personally, I had no clue what “trauma” was then. I only knew that my mom made me cry a lot, and that she seemed mean sometimes. But I had no understanding or perspective. I often thought I was the selfish, spoiled person she seemed to think I was. And that all moms must be like that behind closed doors when disciplining their selfish children. She was/is hyperfocused on selfishness, while at the same time she is a controlling, lying, physically and emotionally abusive person. But very covertly so. 
 

Going back to the socks, think about this: You are a minor  (use any age) and have a whole bag of socks that you don’t want to share. Your mom commands you to share and shames you for not thinking of others and being selfish. You think about it and (being a sensitive person) suddenly feel like the very bad person your mom claims you are being.  On the surface, it seems mom is the “good” person for making her selfish children share, but, really, the controlling and shaming tactics are abusive. A child can’t see this, of course, and thinks they are the problem. Being raised this way, that shame takes root in your core. It takes a lot of maturity and learning to be able to see through this. 
 

Teaching a child to share is important, but it’s devastating to a child to be shamed at every turn like that. That parent is incapable of parenting in a healthy way. My mom just expected automatic awesomeness from her children even when she had not parented and modeled behaviors in a healthy way. Raging, shaming, and screaming was her go to method. She didn’t know any better way. 
 

 

[saraha]

Yeah, all of my moms behaviors can’t be traced solely back to anxiety, so I am working on teasing out which behaviors are (deserving of grace) and which are mean, jealous, spiteful behaviors (need to be dealt with directly). The last few years have been a long journey in my own mind and I have a long way to go. But I have been making progress, with how I handle her internally, how I interact with her, and now I’m getting to the point that the true anger at her treatment of me is moving past and I can start to try to figure out what to do from here.

I really have run the gamut of “if she died next week I wouldn’t even go to her funeral “ to this is the mom I got. There were some good times sprinkled in, and how do I want her to live in my brain for the rest of my life. Trying to limit contact and make it as positive as possible is where I am now. And when she’s gone, I will be sad for her and the life she was dealt/chose to live, and sad for me and mine at the missed opportunity. One thing I know for sure though is that I have clawed and fought hard to be a different kind of mother. She did teach us some good things along with the bad and I do have some things to be thankful for. That’s what keeps me still trying, even when she figuratively slaps me in the face. 

[Indigo Blue]

I could have written that, Saraha. Thanks. 
 

The “how do I handle her internally” part is huge. HUGE. Takes a lot. 

[saraha]

That’s not to say I do t still have visceral knee jerk reactions to her, I almost think even more than I used to. I still have trouble discerning which behaviors are which and how to handle them. I still have a fear reaction to her displeasure (although it is getting better all the time) and I am learning sympathy.
But my patience is also at an all time low with her, dh says she has used up her life time allotment of my patience, and it definitely feels like that. The hardest part is that the anxiety behaviors are mixed in with pure jealousness and meanness. Or she goes about expressing her anxiety in an inappropriate way.

[Indigo Blue]

It’s so hard NOT to call out things I can now see happening in real time ( that I was blind to for so long)!

It needs to be called out, but that runs the risk of having her escalate. The goal is gray rock, but it’s hard. 
 

It’s probably best to err on the safe side as much as possible. 

[Indigo Blue]

“Clawed and fought to be a different kind of mother”…..

Same. 

[gardenmom5]

because it was my grandmother - not my mother - I had the one step removed.  (I felt like I was the extraneous "third" - thank you Orson Scott Card.)  It did offer some protections.  My mother was an only child, and we did spend too much time with/influence-from her ..  but I still didn't actually live with her . . .
but with all this long in my past (she's been dead for 30 years, and my mother has been dead for 13 years), it's enabled me to be able to reflect.
I was able to give my mom more grace for her MANY shortcomings as I was able to understand how broken she was by her mother.  (occasionally she'd be "mean", they weren't typical behaviors for her. (I expect she'd just had contact with her mother.  years later it was clear contact with my brother could change her personality and turn her mean.) she was incapable of a lot of healthy mothering.)

but dh was very used to dealing with his mother and could turn things into a joke.  . . . 

years before grandmother died, dh suggested a grave dance to the tune of "ding dong the wicked witch is dead".    I can still smile at the thought of it.  I also feel sad for her that that's the type of person she was.  She wanted her family to love her, but the more she tried to control everyone, the more they pulled away and the tighter she grasped and the more they pulled away . . . 

[maize]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 She wanted her family to love her, but the more she tried to control everyone, the more they pulled away and the tighter she grasped and the more they pulled away . . . 

Isn't this the real tragedy?

Control is the antithesis of a healthy or happy or mutual relationship. They can't coexist. 

If there is one thing I want to teach my children to understand, it is to let go of control.  Don't let others exert control over you, and don't try to control them.

It's a little tricky for parents to navigate because with small children in particular we do sometimes have to exert control; they don't yet have the maturity and experience to navigate life and keep themselves safe. I don't think we do much good though through control efforts past the "yes I am going to buckle you into your car seat and hold your hand in the busy parking lot" stage.

Edited March 8 by maize