My feelings are hurt

[marbel]

20 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

I think in this case it's particularly hurtful because the parents had said they would not fly/travel to Europe, and now they are, with no explanation of their change of heart. 

I guess I should say I don't think parents owe explanations of their travel plans to their adult children but it seems obvious (to me, anyway) that under these particular circumstances, an explanation would be called for. 

[prairiewindmomma]

20 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

For me, it’s about the mixed messaging and expectations. In my own situation, my parents expect me to maintain the relationship—do all of the travel, etc. 

I suspect OP may feel the same. She is expected to travel “home” but feels lonely living so far away and would love a visit. Yet there is no effort made by parents to do so, yet they are doing other traveling. It’s a sign that she isnt a priority.

[Miss Tick]

30 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

For me a lot of it is the lack of conversation. If you have reasons and are open about things then I know you've thought about it. The reasons don't have to be incontrovertible or unchanging, just keep me in the loop.

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, RyanAir is running oneway tickets for about $50 (40 euros) to her location from various cities in Italy and Greece.  
So, it’d be $200 RT for both of her parents to fly in….

[teachermom2834]

For me it would be less about not tacking an extra few days/flight onto that particular trip as it would be “we can’t visit because we don’t fly” and then making that trip. Hearing they were planning the trip at all would be a gut punch after getting the line about not visiting because of the flight. 
 

I’m sorry. 

[Faith-manor]

32 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

For me, it’s about the mixed messaging and expectations. In my own situation, my parents expect me to maintain the relationship—do all of the travel, etc. 

I suspect OP may feel the same. She is expected to travel “home” but feels lonely living so far away and would love a visit. Yet there is no effort made by parents to do so, yet they are doing other traveling. It’s a sign that she isnt a priority.

This is how it was with Mark's dad. He expected there to be a relationship, and he expected it not only exclusively on his terms AND the sole responsibility of his kids to make it happen with 1400 miles between them, and all of them working full time jobs and raising little kids while he and mother in law were fully retired, flush with funds, and well enough to go anywhere.

Of course we all fell down on that job because LIFE, and just getting sick and tired of being the ones with ALL the responsibility. So we decided to nope out of it after a few years and stick with phone calls. Mark's sibs did the same. Then they complained about not having relationships, never seeing the grandkids. Hmmmmm....whose fault was that? 

Relationships go both ways. But there are people who are self centered enough that they believe should never have to participate yet still reap the rewards.

OP, I would be hurt too because of their excuse about flying and then this. It means flying is just a bogus excuse, and what they really meant was something else.

You couod maybe rethink the cost of flying to them every year if there are better ways to spend that money like college savings for the kids, or taking the kids somewhere if it turns out that they just aren't all that into their adult kids or being grandparents. They may not be the kinds of grandparents who are wanting involvement. The reality is that some folks, once they got their own kids raised, they want to be 'off the clock" so to speak. That is okay too. I get that not everyone wants the same things. Grandparenting has been culturally seen as a command performance. However, it probably should not be seen that way. People choose to have children or not, but they get no say in the appearance of grandchildren in their golden years. The problem is that they lied about why they don't want to travel to you. People should be honest. The lying is flat out wrong!

Also, and this could be a thing, there is a subset of Americans so egregiously misinformed about other countries, that they are not willing to travel to former Eastern European nations. My mom used to be one of these. My sister lives in France and was invited to a wedding in Bulgaria. Mom went bananas! Just odd her rocker. How could she go there? What a terrible place, a society place. Uhm. Mom! The wall came down a long time ago. People travel freely throughout the EU. It is no big deal. It is safe. Have a good time. Now she goes all over Europe with my sister. So being in Poland, one might want to explore if they have some idea that it isn't safe or too close to the Russia/Ukraine conflict or something. But again, lying instead of honesty is the real problem here. And if they have changed their minds about flying, then they should have been honest about that AND the ones to bring up what they said before.

[Bootsie]

I can see many different possibilities in my family.  Mom said she didn't like to fly so she probably wouldn't visit.  Dad said they are going to Europe next summer.  Perhaps they are going to Italy by sea?  Perhaps they are talking about the trip and to Dad that is "going" but mom hasn't really committed to it.  Perhaps dad doesn't know anything about mom saying she doesn't like to fly? Perhaps mom knows that this has been a lifelong dream of dad and they had discussed doing it for a big anniversary trip or retirement trip; mom is very uncomfortable about flying and going, but she is going along because she knows that it is important to her husband; she is prioritizing the relationship with her spouse;  Perhaps there are some friends who are going on the trip who have done a great deal of encouraging--Bob is terminally ill and he his wife would really like to take this trip with friends.  Perhaps mom doesn't feel like she has gotten a real invitation to visit Poland--some people need a very specific invitation to feel welcome; or perhaps she needs more information to visualize how a trip like that would work if she isn't used to traveling/flying; for people not used to traveling there is a big difference in "we meet at the local airport at 12:30pm on July 1. We take care of all of your tickets.  We handle your bags.  There will be a travel expert to help you navigate the airport for the connection and then a bus will meet us at the airport in Rome to take us to XYZ hotel..." and figuring out what airline to fly, what days, what airport to travel to, how to print off tickets, how to handle ground transportation...  

Perhaps this is a sign that mom is getting more comfortable with the idea of flying and it would be a good time to discuss the possibilities of a visit.  I just see that there could be so many possibilities, that it would be impossible to know what the chances of them considering coming for a visit are without directly asking.  

[Garga]

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I can see many different possibilities in my family.  Mom said she didn't like to fly so she probably wouldn't visit.  Dad said they are going to Europe next summer.  Perhaps they are going to Italy by sea?  Perhaps they are talking about the trip and to Dad that is "going" but mom hasn't really committed to it.  Perhaps dad doesn't know anything about mom saying she doesn't like to fly? Perhaps mom knows that this has been a lifelong dream of dad and they had discussed doing it for a big anniversary trip or retirement trip; mom is very uncomfortable about flying and going, but she is going along because she knows that it is important to her husband; she is prioritizing the relationship with her spouse;  Perhaps there are some friends who are going on the trip who have done a great deal of encouraging--Bob is terminally ill and he his wife would really like to take this trip with friends.  Perhaps mom doesn't feel like she has gotten a real invitation to visit Poland--some people need a very specific invitation to feel welcome; or perhaps she needs more information to visualize how a trip like that would work if she isn't used to traveling/flying; for people not used to traveling there is a big difference in "we meet at the local airport at 12:30pm on July 1. We take care of all of your tickets.  We handle your bags.  There will be a travel expert to help you navigate the airport for the connection and then a bus will meet us at the airport in Rome to take us to XYZ hotel..." and figuring out what airline to fly, what days, what airport to travel to, how to print off tickets, how to handle ground transportation...  

Perhaps this is a sign that mom is getting more comfortable with the idea of flying and it would be a good time to discuss the possibilities of a visit.  I just see that there could be so many possibilities, that it would be impossible to know what the chances of them considering coming for a visit are without directly asking.  

This is why the OP needs to talk to them about it. If she doesn’t and if she makes suppositions and if she lets it fester, the relationship is damaged. 

For all we know, Mom said about not flying just on a whim at the time and doesn’t even remember it.

Just ask. Test the water before getting too serious or jump right in being serious.

 

Testing the waters without getting too serious: “I thought you didn’t want to fly to Europe-but now that you do, this opens such great opportunities for us to show you our home here.”

Jumping right in being  serious: “You told me you didn’t want to fly to Europe and that’s why you couldn’t visit me, but you’re flying to Europe on a vacation with a group of (strangers/friends/whoever they are.). That hurts me and makes me think there’s some other reason you don’t want to see me other than flying.”

Edited December 28, 2023 by Garga

[katilac]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

I do think it makes a big difference that he had already visited. Like OP said, everyone wanted to share their lives with the grandparents in a way that can't be done by visiting them in the states. The grandkids wanting to do that is lovely and valuable and would strengthen the relationship. As others have noted, why are some grandparents confused when the grandkids aren't interested in them, when they weren't interested in the grandkids? This tends to be an area where you get the energy you give. 

 My grown kids are local (heck, they're in my house), but I think they'd give their dad a lot of shit if he skipped a visit he could have made, lol. 

Also, I think it's a big deal that mom said we probably won't visit because I don't like to fly, and then this happens. It doesn't sound like she was waiting for an explicit invitation, but rather heading one off at the pass. 

People have posted about parents/grandparents living their own lives and detaching from kids/grandkids to a certain extent. They are obviously free to do that, but they need to expect to be treated the same way in return. 

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, Garga said:

For all we know, Mom said about not flying just on a whim at the time and doesn’t even remember it.
 

To me, that would be such a weird thing to say on a whim when your kid and grandkids are headed across the ocean for years. 

[Arcadia]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions

My in-laws (or husband’s siblings) would definitely let us know because my husband have to pay a portion of the vacation costs. If my husband’s brother or BIL is here on a business trip, then they are expected to meet my husband at their hotel lobby to collect the gifts to bring home. 
My parents have always come over to visit because I needed help. My parents have never had a vacation without me. My cousins would let me know if they are in my area for business and we would see if it is feasible to meet up. For example, my 59 year old cousin came recently with her close friends on a vacation but included me in their activities for a few hours on two days. My 63 year old cousin didn’t had time to meet on his most recent business trip and let me know. If he had not said anything about his business trip, I would be wondering why he was in a nearby city and didn’t call me to meet up for coffee. 

[Garga]

18 minutes ago, katilac said:

To me, that would be such a weird thing to say on a whim when your kid and grandkids are headed across the ocean for years. 

Oh, I know. But there have been conversations with my parents where they said something, but did something different, and they end up not remember saying what they said. It was just something they sort of tossed out there based on the feelings they were having in the moment and when those feelings were gone, they forgot that they’d made whatever statement they’d made.

The point was, stupid things like that can derail a relationship and you must address it and not let it fester. Someone says something flippantly or on a whim or not really thinking about it, or being a little dramatic, “Oh, I could NEVER fly all the way to Europe,” but over time, the reason they said such a thing fades and they don’t even really remember saying it. 

 

 

[regentrude]

10 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

I find that several factors make a difference. 
The fact that the person is living in a different country seems particularly important to me. Moving to a different country is a much larger life change than relocating within the US. As an immigrant, it was very important to me that my parents visit me. My mom visited several times over the years; my dad only three times, and I admit that I was sad he did not come to see us more often (he had no physical or financial reasons not to join mom on her trip, but our current location isn't particularly attractive to a city-lover).
In your example, travel from Seattle directly to NY isn't really more inconvenient than traveling from Orlando - but having endured the ten-hour long-haul flight to Europe means most of the trip is completed and the rest is easy.

DD and I are discussing our travels and are looking for ways to use synergy. When we travel to the Southwest for vacation next year, we will design our itinerary so that we can stop by in AZ and visit her, and we are coordinating so we can do something together. When they drove from IL to AZ, they made a point of stopping by our house in MO, even though they had only time for a meal. When we were recently traveling to India via Germany, we included a three-day stopover, rented a car, and drove four hours to see my mother. She would have understood if it had been impossible to book flights that way, but it was a nice easy way for a visit since we set foot on German soil anyway.

In many ways, it is a matter of mindset and prioritizing. My parents traveled from Germany to visit me when I did my postdoc in CA, when I lived with a baby in OR, when we lived in Oxford, and now in our location in MO. It was important to them to share this part of my life. Not wanting to get a glimpse of the adult child's experience in the other country is hurtful. In your situation, since your DH had been to see your DD before, he had shown this interest, and it's all good. 

I bet the OP would feel less hurt if her parents had already visited and then were taking another trip where they didn't stop by. Not visiting at all can come across as "we don't really care".

Edited December 28, 2023 by regentrude

[Clarita]

13 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious of what expectations are regarding including one's parents or one's grown children in vacation discussions.  This past summer, DH and I were in Europe and he returned to the US without seeing our daughter who is living in Europe (I extended my stay and visited her).  I don't think there were hard feelings that he didn't visit.  Is it different because he has been to visit her before?  Is it relative distances that are important?  Would it be the same if the parents lived in Seattle and decided to go to Orlando for a vacation and not also stop in New York to see their children who live there while they are "so close"?  

I don't think this has anything to do with expectations (or a general consensus), who's right or wrong, it's about a relationship.  So, what do you think is good for your relationship with your adult child? What would you expect from your adult child? In a healthy relationship between 2 adults, it's reasonable that both persons will put in approximately the same amount of effort. Even adult children want to be cared and thought about by their parents. So, the question really is what would you want from your children and what would show you that they care and thought about you even if they couldn't swing by for a visit?   

[Tree Frog]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:29 PM, fairfarmhand said:

Older peoples traveling stuff is weird. My mil would go with one set of kids/in-laws to places hours away stay in hotels etc, but driving 2 hours to see us was like going to the backside of the moon. 🤷🏽‍♀️ I don’t know why. I’m sorry your feelings were hurt and I’m glad you’re trying to reframe so it’s Not so painful.

I haven't read past this yet, but I agree. My mom told my brother, who lives 3 hours away from her, she wasn't traveling anymore, then turned around and visited us the next week. I live 13 hours away. My dad did the same thing. He and his wife told me they aren't travelling anymore, then drove to a city 4 hours from me to visit her friends and son. They drove to the city my sister lives in to visit her son, but didn't tell my sister. Feelings are hurt all the way around.

@lovinmyboys, I understand your hurt. I would also be hurt.

[Spryte]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:43 PM, Garga said:

This is key. You must ask them. I won’t tell my whole life story about me and my parents, but it’s been a series of all of us not communicating and making up our own reasons for why things did or didn’t happen, which weren’t true at all. We wasted 30 years of our lives believing wrong information about each other and the relationship just can’t be truly fixed now. 

So, flat out say, “I didn’t think you guys wanted to fly out here, but since you do, this is the PERfect time for us to meet up! DH, the kids and I would love to have you see our home. If you’re interested, can we look into tacking on a couple of days at the end of your trip?”

As someone who has lived through these sorts of scenarios with my own parents, I can’t express it strongly enough that you need to talk to them ASAP and do NOT, under any circumstances, let this eat away at you or fester. Lay the cards on the table. Don’t accuse them about how they didn’t think they’d fly out there. Simply merrily say, “I didn’t think you wanted to fly, but since you’ll be out here anyway….”.

This. Garga said this perfectly. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Spryte

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Tree Frog said:

I haven't read past this yet, but I agree. My mom told my brother, who lives 3 hours away from her, she wasn't traveling anymore, then turned around and visited us the next week. I live 13 hours away. My dad did the same thing. He and his wife told me they aren't travelling anymore, then drove to a city 4 hours from me to visit her friends and son. They drove to the city my sister lives in to visit her son, but didn't tell my sister. Feelings are hurt all the way around.

@lovinmyboys, I understand your hurt. I would also be hurt.

Oh, man, why do people do that? Just . . . why?? 

My in-laws did the oh, don't think we'll travel anymore thing. To be fair, yes, they are old, lol, but I feel like they could for sure fly to see us (money is not an issue, they could easily choose first-class and travel in full comfort). They just drove a nice long distance to see their other kid, and my obnoxious self was like So glad y'all feel up to traveling again! When can we expect you? 😄

I very well knew they would start traveling again, they were just hoping we'd make another trip to them before it happened. It's been a somewhat comical stalemate. 

We do have valid reasons for not being able to go up there as often as they'd like, and my grown kids aren't super-interested in giving up their vacation time for a trip there, for all the reasons discussed in this thread. One of them has a no-work, no-pay job, so it's really a lot to ask!