s/o increasing numbers of asynchronous classes

[cintinative]

I thought this might be interesting to discuss.  

Our local university does not have live online classes.  They have live in person or asynchronous.  I don't know when this change occurred but my understanding is that they used to have live online classes.

My nephew goes to U of Central Florida and this year all but two of his classes are asynchronous. He is in Digital Media.  One of his classes (Spanish) meets once per week in person and the rest is asynchronous. I personally think asynchronous Spanish sounds horrible.

I agree with @regentrude's comment in the other thread--it is rare that an asynchronous class is done well.  

For some of our boardie kids, asynchronous is going to be an extremely bad fit for many reasons.

Other than going through the course requirements and checking some sort of online course catalog to find out if live in person seats even exist, is there a way to know if a school/program is leaning heavily in this direction? Word of mouth?

Is this more common with technology programs?

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by cintinative

[regentrude]

The increase in asynchronous classes comes from two factors, the administration believing this is an easy way to get students and save cost (no limitations from room size, one instructor teaching vastly more students) and on the other hand from  student demands who think it will allow them scheduling flexibility ( but don't realize they still have to budget for adequate time). Sometimes the classes are deliberately dumbed down to undercut other institutions and entice those students to take that class remote through them instead of the more substantial class at their own school. (Sigh)

Having taught synchronous (which I guess is what you mean by "live") online classes, I see them as having little advantages over asynchronous,  since many students will not actually participate. So if one has to offer online classes, one might as well give them the one advantage of scheduling flexibility. That was the rationale when my uni decided that I must offer an online section for my course, way back before the plague.

I think the only way to know is by scrutinizing the class schedule and paying attention to the delivery mode.

I agree that asynchronous language classes are horrible and can't be expected to create anything remotely resembling fluency except for extremely gifted and motivated language students - languages live through conversation. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by regentrude

[Bootsie]

I taught at a state university which was desparately trying to increase its retenetion and graduation rates because of pressure from the state legislature.  One of the solutions was to target classes which had high rates of D's, F's, and W's--especially prerequisite classes.  Not completing business calculus or intro to accounting, for example, would mean that a student could not take the core finance course the next semester, and graduation would be delayed.  The solution was to offer asynchronous, condennsed courses over breaks/holidays so that these students could catch up and remain on track.  The problem is that you have students who are struggling (and are not good candidates for independent study) taking courses that they find to be the most difficult.  

Publishers have also been encouraging this trend with all of their "bite-sized lessons" and electronic resources--basically canned classes.  They want to sell software for which students watch a short video, click a few multiple choice answers for a quiz for 10 minutes and then move on to another packaged lesson.  Although these programs sound impressive (immediate feedback for students, dashboards that show students their progress, badges to motivate students, calendars, adaptive offerings, etc.) I have not been impressed with the learning that takes place.  I used a book for an Investments class from a major publisher and when they went to a new edition last year, I found that my students could not buy a hard copy of the book--all the publisher would sell is access to their electronic course.

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, your best bet to avoid those is to go to small schools that are undergrad focused. One reason why LAC's rose to the top of my STEM kid's stack was that the year of completely online DE showed that colleges just weren't good at it, and most of the bigger state U's had a LOT of classes online and often required classes that were only online. Smaller schools often had NO or minimal online offerings. 

[lewelma]

The rise of educational computer programs in the past 20 years has led to a belief that teaching is the same as content distribution. Thus, if you believe students are a tabula rasa that we can fill with content, computers can deliver content as well as a teacher.  Clearly, this is false. Students are not vessels that can be filled passively. They have to want to learn, have the skills to learn, and be able to integrate new knowledge with existing knowledge in their head. Teachers and face-to-face learning provide this function -- they create community, collaboration, motivation, excitement etc. Replacing teachers with computers will result in poorer educational outcomes for all but the motivated students. And in my experience, that is a small subset of students.

Edited September 19, 2023 by lewelma

[chiguirre]

I went through the UF course catalog for their required Quest classes (one humanities, one biology or social science, I looked at bio) to see what they offered. They had a couple of asynchronous options, one that was obviously a check the box to fulfill this requirement, and one that seemed more interesting but was recycled video from a live class that's no longer offered. 

I was looking at it from the opposite perspective. Dd is in Guam, which is literally on the other side of the earth, 12 times zones away from EDT. If a class is not asynchronous, it won't work. In fact, I hope she'll be able to find classes that unlock all of the content from the beginning so she can accommodate any underways she'll have without having to drop a class. But, tbh, she's looking for the relatively easy class that checks the course requirement box and gets the degree that checks the box on a job application. She's already got a "real" job that has to take priority. This isn't ideal for traditional students, but it is what the non-traditionals are looking for.

(As a an extra point that probably only applies to military, but you can't always count on having good wifi. I was checking the Quest classes and sending dd screenshots because she doesn't have access to good wifi on board her ship or on the barge they lived on while they were in the ship yards. She had to rely on me or take her phone to a McD's or Starbucks to really use anything except email. This makes asynchronous even more important to her. She has to be able to download stuff and watch it offline.)

Edited September 20, 2023 by chiguirre

[Frances]

On 9/19/2023 at 4:54 AM, cintinative said:

I thought this might be interesting to discuss.  

Our local university does not have live online classes.  They have live in person or asynchronous.  I don't know when this change occurred but my understanding is that they used to have live online classes.

My nephew goes to U of Central Florida and this year all but two of his classes are asynchronous. He is in Digital Media.  One of his classes (Spanish) meets once per week in person and the rest is asynchronous. I personally think asynchronous Spanish sounds horrible.

I agree with @regentrude's comment in the other thread--it is rare that an asynchronous class is done well.  

For some of our boardie kids, asynchronous is going to be an extremely bad fit for many reasons.

Other than going through the course requirements and checking some sort of online course catalog to find out if live in person seats even exist, is there a way to know if a school/program is leaning heavily in this direction? Word of mouth?

Is this more common with technology programs?

 

How do they get daily listening and conversation practice in an asynchronous Spanish class? I know both of my nieces took Speech as an asynchronous class and personally I found it ridiculous. They just recorded their speeches and submitted them. I think maybe sometimes they had to have an audience of one two people they hand picked. To me, that is not remotely equivalent to waiting your turn and then getting up in front of a group of classmates and a prof and giving your speech. It just doesn’t seem possible for it to be as a good of a learning experience as an in person or at least synchronous class.

[Dmmetler]

20 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I went through the UF course catalog for their required Quest classes (one humanities, one biology or social science, I looked at bio) to see what they offered. They had a couple of asynchronous options, one that was obviously a check the box to fulfill this requirement, and one that seemed more interesting but was recycled video from a live class that's no longer offered. 

I was looking at it from the opposite perspective. Dd is in Guam, which is literally on the other side of the earth, 12 times zones away from EDT. If a class is not asynchronous, it won't work. In fact, I hope she'll be able to find classes that unlock all of the content from the beginning so she can accommodate any underways she'll have without having to drop a class. But, tbh, she's looking for the relatively easy class that checks the course requirement box and gets the degree that checks the box on a job application. She's already got a "real" job that has to take priority. This isn't ideal for traditional students, but it is what the non-traditionals are looking for.

(As a an extra point that probably only applies to military, but you can't always count on having good wifi. I was checking the Quest classes and sending dd screenshots because she doesn't have access to good wifi on board her ship or on the barge they lived on while they were in the ship yards. She had to rely on me or take her phone to a McD's or Starbucks to really use anything except email. This makes asynchronous even more important to her. She has to be able to download stuff and watch it offline.)

I suspect that schools that have a large military component do distance learning and asynchronous better than ones that don't. I went to a school near a big air force base in the early 1990's, and we had a lot of classes which were being televised and recorded for that purpose, because some of our students couldn't come to campus because they were preparing for deployment, and some were deployed. Basically, class schedules were set so that the largest number of the military students could attend, either in their remote classroom via closed circuit TV connected to us on the main campus, or at their own time and schedule.  I think, overall, it was done about as well as it could be done with the tech at that time, but it was definitely a different experience. I will also say that that school did better at accommodations like "need to record class audio" and "need note takers" BECAUSE the remote students needed classes recorded and written transcripts since sometimes they couldn't get video depending on where they were, so if you were a kid with a 504, no problem-you were directed to the sections that were set up for remote students, and got added to the distribution list, essentially becoming both an in-person and remote student. 

 

L did a class from a Uni in Canada to knock out a prereq that was not only 100% asynchronous, but was about 99% text files and email-lots of read, look up, go to the library, do the written assignments, and email to the professor, who emailed comments back. It went well, and would definitely have worked for someone with limited internet access. L said it was a boring way to do a class, but it served the purpose.  

[ieta_cassiopeia]

My current university almost entirely consists of asynchronous classes, but given that this is what it's been doing since before the majority of its students were born, I would imagine the teething troubles are sorted by now. Most of the courses have been all-online for quite a while, for that matter. It's very upfront on the website about this because it considers this a selling point. Given the increasing number of students who can't afford to either go away for university or study full-time, asynchronous online is now considered a positive for motivated students who know they can successfully learn that way. Thus, a well-thought-out option for online asynchronous is likely to be easily identified, simply by checking its website and/or promotional materials.

Look for phrases like "our teaching fits around you", "study when it suits", any mention of a MOOC (massive open online course) in relation to studying that isn't hidden in a corner somewhere, a lack of emphasis on lecturer quality and increased emphasis on the importance of independence, supports available that don't make sense in a live context (such as student forums for social connection or having 100% of assessments not being done at a set time) and having the marketing at the top appear to be aimed at students who aren't likely to be looking for a residential experience. If you see "blended learning", it's definitely going to have at least part of the course be asynchronous (since the philosophy with those is that if live is worth doing, it's worth doing in person). Some of the less well-thought out options do online asynchronous less because of the strengths of that method, but because the online market is growing and live asynchronous methods were perceived as the worst of both worlds (the scheduling issues and variability of live, the technical glitches and student disengagement of online - and in many cases the lecturers could see the disengagement happening before their eyes. Smaller classes can get round it by having the lecturer use certain techniques to make it less like a online presentation, but that doesn't work in hundreds-strong introductory classes). Or worse, because they already recorded the lectures during the pandemic and figure they might as well use (some of) them.

As for the local bricks-and-mortar institutions, one is not 100% clear on whether their online courses are live or asynchronous (they're the latter). Another is using a mixture of what appears to be every delivery method under the sun as it explores options (some may be more established than others but I don't know which ones are the most established for distance at that particular location). A third one is largely continuing to use live online classes for the non-face-to-face ones (as it has for over a decade). Another is openly all-asynchronous except for assessments if not doing the face-to-face option. The other one has a single blended learning course left (law), and is otherwise all face-to-face.

[Clemsondana]

My homeschooled DE kid loves the flexibility of asynchronous online classes.  But, kid has taken either things that are non-major courses (humanities for a STEM kid) or are highly proscribed (Calc 3 and Physics).  The last 2 are actually part of a state-wide ecampus, so I think that the goal is to make sure that prereq classes contain the material needed to succeed in the next class in the sequence.  

From what kid says, though, a lot of classmates struggle with the online classes.  There is a ton of time management required.  It's not usually a problem for a kid who gradually worked up to completely managing their schedule over the years, but I can imagine that for a lot of students they struggle to plan 15 hours of hard work spread across a week.  

A friend's kid is living at home and commutes to State U.  This student signed up for their required sophomore classes, picking the favored professors and class times that worked together, only to find that all but one of their classes was online.  Some are synchronous, a way for the U to put more students in a class without having to add another section in another classroom.  The mom made 2 comments - 1 is that it can be a challenge because the student needs to do one online class on campus before running to their live class, so they have to set up somewhere to do that.  The second is that she'd be really ticked if she were paying for a student to live on campus, only to have most of their classes taken from a dorm room.  

[Wheres Toto]

I did a bunch of my degree credits through Thomas Edison State U so I'm very familiar with online learning.    Back when oldest dd was in school she attempted one online course and it didn't go well, but it was also a subject she hated.

Ds is in his 4th semester at CC and is taking his first asynchronous course.    Two of the courses he wanted/needed to take were only available asynchronous or at times that he couldn't make (ex, astronomy only offered at night and he doesn't like to drive in the dark).   So far he's doing well.  I gave him some advice about how to handle posting requirements and how to keep on top of things and so far, so good.   I haven't asked him yet if he likes it, hates it or it's just fine and he doesn't care.   He is going on campus for one class plus a second day for a social activity so I have a feeling he likes the asynchronous classes since he felt sitting in some of his past classes was a waste of time, and he's still getting in person time with others.  

His school was very clear on what classes met in person and what were online, what had set meeting times and what were asynchronous.   

I do believe his CC has been doing online classes for quite a while.   They are very popular with adults returning to school and I think they've been offering options like satellite campuses, online courses, etc for at least 20 or so years.  

[cintinative]

14 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

The mom made 2 comments - 1 is that it can be a challenge because the student needs to do one online class on campus before running to their live class, so they have to set up somewhere to do that.  The second is that she'd be really ticked if she were paying for a student to live on campus, only to have most of their classes taken from a dorm room.  

This is how my brother's family feels. They didn't pay for tuition because of the FL bright futures scholarship but they are paying $$$ for room and board.  

[cintinative]

I wish there was a way to know which asynchronous classes are run well versus not.  @Clemsondana my son actually chose asynchronous classes this year. They are just such a mixed bag. Some are okay and some are just awful.  There does not seem to be a FB group for dual enrollment parents to ask these questions.  So I am not sure how we avoid these classes except by avoiding asynchronous in general.  We are looking at a calc-based physics class in the spring but it will be a 35 minute drive each way. But asynchronous physics, if it is done poorly like a couple of my son's current IT classes, could be truly awful. It's so hard to know.

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

I wish there was a way to know which asynchronous classes are run well versus not.  @Clemsondana my son actually chose asynchronous classes this year. They are just such a mixed bag. Some are okay and some are just awful.  There does not seem to be a FB group for dual enrollment parents to ask these questions.  So I am not sure how we avoid these classes except by avoiding asynchronous in general.  We are looking at a calc-based physics class in the spring but it will be a 35 minute drive each way. But asynchronous physics, if it is done poorly like a couple of my son's current IT classes, could be truly awful. It's so hard to know.

Can you use Rate My Professor? My dd and I used it every semester when she attended CC. There were always comments about how the asynchronous classes were run and they were accurate. The classes that were well reviewed had professors that were on the ball posting assignments, providing prompt feedback and answering emails. The few she had no choice but to take because they were the only section offered lived up to their low expectations, but she was mentally prepared for the struggle.

[Lecka]

One of my son’s classes was changed to “hybrid” between enrollment and classes starting.  He didn’t understand that meant it could all be done online.  
 

He never wants to take another hybrid class again!!!!!!

 

If he hadn’t done Covid school I think he might not mind taking a class that way for scheduling, but he hates them now.  

[cintinative]

4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Can you use Rate My Professor? My dd and I used it every semester when she attended CC. There were always comments about how the asynchronous classes were run and they were accurate. The classes that were well reviewed had professors that were on the ball posting assignments, providing prompt feedback and answering emails. The few she had no choice but to take because they were the only section offered lived up to their low expectations, but she was mentally prepared for the struggle.

We tried? There just aren't a lot of reviews for some profs, and we had to make some last minute changes because they cancelled certain sections.  Definitely we looked. I can't remember if his one really bad prof even had reviews. I ought to check. I told him we were leaving a review at the end of the semester. 

 

[silver]

The college my son is doing DE at has both completely online and completely in person sections of foreign languages and lab sciences. We asked his advisor how those courses worked as online courses. From the advisors explanation, my son opted to do courses like foreign language and lab science in person. Can you ask the student advisor for advice on which courses or sections work best? They are often familiar with what courses students struggle with and what type of student best succeeds with various formats. 

[cintinative]

2 minutes ago, silver said:

The college my son is doing DE at has both completely online and completely in person sections of foreign languages and lab sciences. We asked his advisor how those courses worked as online courses. From the advisors explanation, my son opted to do courses like foreign language and lab science in person. Can you ask the student advisor for advice on which courses or sections work best? They are often familiar with what courses students struggle with and what type of student best succeeds with various formats. 

We can try, but his advisor is pretty clueless, and he is also leaving in a few weeks. We have asked simple questions and he can't answer them. Like: is this class a corequisite of this other class?   Sigh.

Maybe we would be better off messaging the department head.  I don't know. It's to the point where my son is no longer sure he wants to attend the college because the course quality is so poor.  Since he has absolutely learned from asynch courses before like Coursera, the trouble is not the format, it's the lack of effort and intention put into the courses the college is offering. They are all IT classes.  

[cintinative]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:12 PM, cintinative said:

We tried? There just aren't a lot of reviews for some profs, and we had to make some last minute changes because they cancelled certain sections.  Definitely we looked. I can't remember if his one really bad prof even had reviews. I ought to check. I told him we were leaving a review at the end of the semester. 

 

Update: Prof did not have bad reviews, even the one review for an online course.