Attitude problems and burnout and everything is a mess

[Aspasia]

We are in our 11th year of homeschooling, so we're not newbies. This is all my four kids have ever known. But we are in a major rut, and if I'm being honest with myself, we have been for a long time (probably the last 2 years). Homeschooling used to be joyful but now my kids complain about EVERYTHING. All. day. long. I feel like my entire day is spent managing people's attitudes and pulling teeth to get them to do the bare minimum (math, reading, copy work, some writing). 

My 10th grader used to be the poster child for homeschooling--cheerful and curious and engaged and creative. She was always busy making things and learning about various interests on her own. She was amazing. Now she thinks everything is a drag. She spends all day in her room doing her work (or dawdling and getting behind). I've asked her, if she could design her entire school year herself, choose how to spend each day, what would it look like? I'm met with grunts and shrugs. In the end, she's pulling it off, doing DE and AP courses and some others. She's checking the boxes for a college prep high school experience, but she's not happy like she used to be. (Personal interests are art and music, which she does spend at least 2 hours on every day, so it's not like she isn't investing what matters to her most.)

My 7th grader has always been my biggest attitude challenge, but it's reached new heights. He's gotten to the age where now he's asking what the point of life is, because every day he just gets up and does his school (which he hates) and that's it. We have a very active sports and cultural life--we spend lots of time going to museums and plays and homeschool group activities...all of which he complains about the whole time. He thinks school is pointless, he doesn't care about any of it. The only way to get him to do the basics is to offer incentives. Never mind about anything beyond that. He gets mad and feels victimized if his school work takes longer than 2 hours, because he still thinks he should be able to race through it and play for the rest of the day (like when he was little). This, despite about a billion conversations over the last few years about how to manage his expectations and to expect his work to take longer because he's getting older. When asked what he would like to learn, same thing with the grunts and shrugs. If left entirely to his own devices, he would spend all day on...well...devices. We are a very low-screen family, but he's always, always wanting more and more video games. He has no interests outside of Pokemon, video games, and sports.

My 5th and 3rd graders just complain about every single math page or bit of copy work. They hate everything. Third grader groans every day about how pointless math is, asks why she has to do it, etc. I've engaged in these conversations with her about a thousand times, trying to help her school work have meaning in her life. At this point, I'm done. It's very clear that she isn't actually interested in the why, it's just a way to complain and stall. Don't even get me started on more fun things like history or science. Nobody wants to do any of it. What's fun to me, and I think to most kids, is apparently not fun to mine. 

Every single day has become a slog and now I kinda hate homeschooling. I've tried to add things to brighten up our days, I've asked them for input, I've tried switching to a more open project-based approach where they can choose what they learn about and choose how to express their learning (I compiled a list of project ideas for them to choose from or draw inspiration from), but they just moan and say they hate learning and aren't interested in anything.

I see all these homeschooled kids who have various learning interests that they enthusiastically pursue on their own: WWII, Ancient Egypt, astronomy, literature, whatever. I always assumed that, given enough time and freedom and support, mine would eventually find theirs, too. Why don't my kids have any interests at all? The kicker is that I'm a VERY enthusiastic learner. Way more so than your average adult. I always have a new obsession I'm learning about, tearing through nonfiction books and sharing cool things with my family. Everywhere we go, I'm engaged in learning about everythign around me--I read about it beforehand, soak up all the learning resources onsite, cheerfully try to bring my kids in...and they just resist, resist, resist. I feel like I've failed at the number one goal of homeschool moms everywhere--to inspire a love of learning. 😭 What have I done wrong? Why are my kids so uninterested in learning? How do I fix this? Or should I just give up and send them to school? Because honestly, none of us are happy right now. 

 

[cintinative]

I'm interested to hear what people respond to this, because to be honest, I have never had the eager learners here.  They grumble, and they get it done.  Even the Unity programming my oldest is doing, which was his choice to pursue, he grumbles about sometimes.  When they were younger there were absolutely times when I said "you have to do it because I said so."  I was willing to engage in a certain amount of discussion about the relative merits of a book or curriculum, but not on whether or not we should study math at all.  😃  

Obviously keep the workload expectations at each age in mind.  Sometimes we need to make adjustments.

Without knowing anything about how long you have been at it--is it possible you all just need a couple weeks off?  When will you be "done" for your academic year?  Some years for us we were crawling over the finish line.  Are there any family stressors or other situations that are impacting your day-to-day that could be a sort of "emotional/mental load" your kids are carrying in addition to school? (For example, illness, taking care of grandparents, new work situation for a parent, etc.)?

One thing that seemed to help a bit when they were younger (not high school) was to stagger the starts of different subjects. So as the year went on the ones we started first would end sooner, and the overall load would taper out.  

Your 7th grader sounds like a 7th grader to me.  😃 Maybe I am jaded.  

Susan Wise Bauer has an excellent talk on burnout.  https://welltrainedmind.com/p/burning-out-why-it-happens-and-what-to-do-about-it-mp3/

 

[cintinative]

Read this thread. It will encourage you. I think.  😃

 

[freesia]

At about your point in homeschooling, I was reenergized by listening to Julie Bogart’s podcast. Her book Bravelearner came out a bit after I started listening to her. It really gave me the oomf I needed to keep going and find what I loved about homeschooling. 
 

The teen years are hard. Complaining can become a habit. I know at one point, we discussed changing the narrative as a technique in our life. I also limited the amount of complaints I would listen to. I also added some elements of fun, relaxed about some things and other things from Bravelearner. 
 

My kids have all gone through slumps. None of my mid-teens were particularly passionate about anything. The have just gone through a massive brain restructure and are finding who their new person is. By late teens they are back at the passions. Don’t judge by this snapshot. It’s the long game. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Aspasia said:

I've asked her, if she could design her entire school year herself, choose how to spend each day, what would it look like? I'm met with grunts and shrugs. In the end, she's pulling it off, doing DE and AP courses and some others. She's checking the boxes for a college prep high school experience, but she's not happy like she used to be.

Have you always picked what needs to get done? I threw my teens into swim or sink mode in middle school because it doesn’t affect college applications. They pick the courses they want to do. We had “peaceful” 7th and 8th grade years. At the end of 8th grade, they could come up with their fluid 4 year plan for high school.  
This may not apply in your scenario. I have friends whose kids (public schools and homeschool) do not give feedback on choices because their education and extracurricular activities are all planned/managed by parents. They don’t think they have a say and they stop saying what they want. 

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

I'm interested to hear what people respond to this, because to be honest, I have never had the eager learners here.  They grumble, and they get it done.

Same here. Sulky face but things get done. My kids eager happy faces are when they are discussing their hobbies with each other or when sharing memes.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that while we as parents/teachers can lay a good foundation and a good educational framework, we have no control of the attitudes of our kids.  They decide on how they are going to react to life (which would happen whether they were homeschooled or not).  It's really hard when we see kids have a heart attitude that leads to more unhappiness and discontent.  But we aren't responsible for the happiness of others - including our kids.  (This doesn't make it any easier or any less stressful to be around it.) 

[8filltheheart]

It may sound trite, but don't accept the complaining and attitudes.  A rotten apple spoils the bushel is a true statement.  Negativity feeds negativity: IOW, it's contagious.  

Children need to understand that not all emotions deserve to be recognized or expressed.  We are rationale beings who possess the ability to control our emotional responses to situations.  Dislikes and likes are not the basis for how humans function.  Life is full of duty which might be a drudge, but without fulfilling our daily obligations, how would life actually function?

Maybe have a discussion and prove its validity.  You go on a laundry, cooking, cleaning, driving, and providing strike for a day.  (No tv, no internet,no phone, no lights.....no $$ from a job paying for those luxuries means you don't have them.)  Bills are paid from earning $$ from working.  You want to eat?  Someone has to pay for the food, go to the store and buy it, prepare and cook it, and clean up afterward. 

If everyone doesn't fulfill their role in a family, chaos will reign.  One person not carrying their weight puts the burden on others.  One person's complaining impacts the atmosphere of the entire household! A child's job is to learn.....to learn academic skills, social skills, life skills.  Complaining about a given is not acceptable.  If they don't like something, they need to learn to just keep it to themselves and grin and bear it.  If they want to be a constant negative, then there should be consequences for making everyone else endure their miserable attitude.

FWIW, I do believe sometimes there are justified complaints.  Those need to listened to and addressed.  Sometimes an assignment is so overwhelming that it needs to be broken down into more manageable pieces or a better foundation provided.  But that is distinctly different than laziness or self-pity bc they want to play vs. work.  Hormones can also wreak havoc on emotions.  But, learning to cope with emotions is a life skill.  Being controlled by emotions and desires is the alternative.  IOW, just because you have an emotion or a desire does not mean it is an appropriate response.

Edited May 4, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Ting Tang]

Big hugs. I’m fairly new to this with my four. It’s our third year, and my oldest challenges me the most. I can relate to some of what you wrote. Sometimes I want to hand them over to a school so I have some peace, but I want to give it another chance. I bought Laying Down the Rails last year, and I failed to implement it. Next year, I’m going to make it a priority to do the habit training lessons in the books. I’m also considering buying Manner of the Week cards from Memoria Press and perhaps some Bible devotionals on attitude, character, obedience, etc. I hate to “add” when I feel it’s hard enough to do the bare minimum, but we’re not going to be a bare minimum homeschool. No advice, but that’s my plan!  

Edited May 5, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Heartstrings]

Ont thing that stood out reading your description is that I don’t see any social time.  You said you’re active with activities and culture, but are your teens getting hang out time with friends of their choice to be frivolous and silly?  Outside of a structured event or activity, so not youth group.  That is a real need for a lot of teenagers.  
 

You’re oldest might be burned out, dual enrollment and APs in 10th grade might honestly be too much. That’s not college prep, it’s college in high school.  There is something to be said for doing high school level work in high school. Maybe she needs the rigor backed off a bit.  Not to slacker land, just down from college level to maybe honors level high school for a few subjects.  Save the DE and AP for only a select few classes.  
 

You seem very dismissive of your sons interest.  I can tell from a few sentences that you don’t value his interest, it’s likely he feels that and interprets it as rejection.  That might fuel some bad attitudes.  

Edited May 5, 2023 by Heartstrings

[kathyl]

When I began to feel like that, I took a nice long break.  I told my kids they had to "find something to do" or "I would find something for them to do", and "be ready to start back to school in X weeks with no griping or complaining or we wouldn't be able to take these breaks again".  Then, I would do what I wanted and what helped restore my inspiration for hs'ing, often just reading about hs'ing and decluttering and planning.  We also did some fun stuff like riding down to town and eating at the K&W cafeteria and stopping by some parks or fields on the way home.  Or exploring the area where we lived (woods, nearby national forests, etc.) - stuff like that.  Dc still had to do their chores and I still did basic chores, but we did the minimum during our breaks.  And I had dc help me when I needed it - hauling stuff to the dump, rearranging lots of stuff, etc.

15,12,10, and 8 seem very young to me.

I agree with @Heartstrings that the 15yo sounds just plain burned out.  And I would NOT be having a "billion conversations" with a 12yo about school.  Like @8filltheheart said, don't accept the complaining and attitudes.  When my ds's got like that, I sometimes asked them to come up with solutions and bring them to me.  Writing them out seemed to be good, too, because they had to actually think through them.  But I also learned never to hesitate to just tell them that "school has to get done whether you like it or not.  End of discussion.  And I don't want to hear anymore complaining about it".  But I only said that when I could see that they were complaining just to complain, or, better yet, just to avoid actually doing the schoolwork.

It almost sounds like you're doing too much negotiating with them.  And comparing your kids to other kids (or even to yourself)?  No, don't want to be doing that on any level.  

FWIW, we were a no-screens family when our dc got older.  We never did video games.  And I got rid of the TV early on when I realized dc would pick up a book and read without TV or screens competing for their attention.  It took letting them get bored and not getting sucked into the whining about it, but they all became avid readers eventually once they realized I wasn't going to spend my time dreaming up ways to entertain them and facilitating that entertainment, including hauling them to organized sports, which we did for quite a few years before I put a halt to that.  This was pre-cell phone times, mostly, too.  Our dc didn't get cell phones until they were in college.

IOW, you might have to step back and let them get bored.  Quit hauling them around all over the place.  Give them the quiet time to 'get to know themselves' (that sounds weird, but I can't think of another way to say it at the moment).  And give yourself time to rest, at home. 

Also, my boys seemed to take much longer to learn to 'love' learning than my girls did.  Maybe take that into consideration with your son somehow?

And ymmv may vary on this one, but I added Bible to our curriculum.  In fact, when we first began including Bible study, I had dc (and myself) take the entire month of January off and read through the entire Bible.  We each sat wherever we wanted and individually read our Bibles, taking breaks to move around and eat and do chores.  No school unless they just wanted to do that.  Only Bible.  That still stays with them, even as adults.

Finally, I suppose there is always the option of sending them to school.   I've seen where some here have done it and said it worked and they were glad they did it.  But I can't speak to that.  You could ask specifically about that in a thread maybe?     

Edited May 5, 2023 by kathyl

[ScoutTN]

Sorry you feel stuck!

Not all kids will love formal school, whether homeschool or traditional school. That’s ok. 

It’s ok to send them to school. There are real trade-offs and it’s not a good fit for every kid or family, but it is not the end of the world either.

Where is your kids’ community? Friends are important, esp for teens. What is their fun? 
 

Did your high schooler have substantial input about her courses? 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Heartstrings]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:33 AM, Aspasia said:

ee all these homeschooled kids who have various learning interests that they enthusiastically pursue on their own: WWII, Ancient Egypt, astronomy, literature, whatever

Are you seeing these kids in real life, eyeball to eyeball?  Close enough to know the real daily ins and outs?   Or are you comparing your life to someone else’s highlight reel? 


 

      

[Heartstrings]

I will add an unpopular thought here.  
 

My kids are those kids that pursue learning and knowledge on their own. But, the unpopular part here, they’re using screens to do it.  My oldest once researched a Supreme Court ruling and wrote a 3 page paper with citations….for his video game server.  He wanted an aspect of it be realistic.  He was also really into languages, on duolingo.  And learned programming, photoshop, video editing, beginner AI stuff, on YouTube. He was really into ancient weapons, you tube again. I was not involved at all.  
 

My second kiddo knows every thing you could want about mythology, King Arthur, Beowulf, Robin Hood, mostly from YouTube.  I’m not involved at all.  

Sometimes pursuing passion doesn’t look like I would want it to look.   Watching YouTube isn’t going up on a mommy blogger Instagram.  But my kids are learning, enthusiastically, of their own volition, during time that they could  be playing video games.  Just a thought.  

[PeterPan]

22 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

You seem very dismissive of your sons interest.  I can tell from a few sentences that you don’t value his interest, it’s likely he feels that and interprets it as rejection.  That might fuel some bad attitudes.  

Are you sure this was the most helpful thing to say to @Aspasia??

On 5/4/2023 at 12:33 PM, Aspasia said:

I feel like I've failed at the number one goal of homeschool moms everywhere--to inspire a love of learning. 

I thought it was not to kill them. Just saying. Like seriously, I think you've been hanging with some pipe dreams crowds.

On 5/4/2023 at 12:33 PM, Aspasia said:

We are in our 11th year of homeschooling, so we're not newbies.

Ahh, still babes. I'm the youngest of the oldies here and I'm 19 years in. If others post here, they have even more. And I can tell you over the years we've had threads that explored the idea of the cycles of burnout and when they occur with long term homeschooling. How old are you and what is your body doing? When was the last time you went to the doctor? Because you've been doing this a while, you also have yourself to deal with.

For me, and this is just me, I had health changes over the years, the need to start some thyroid meds (woo woo! energy!!), and just BOREDOM. Oh my stinking lands. I remember how I was as a homeschooler when my dd was 5 and I'm just so not there. I'm the age of a grandma and I have this kind of more calm, methodical, unenthusiastic, unruffled, let's make some cookies and sort this out approach to life. And I don't think that's all bad.

So if you were asking me what I see in your post, with zero criticism, I'd suggest one just asking whether you feel well. I don't know, but it's always a good thing to check. Vitamin D, thyroid, have you had a vacation, are you burnt out, all that jazz. And two, are your needs as a mother honestly being met or is it time to rearrange to meet your needs. Three, is the way you're currently trying to homeschool refreshing to you and fitting your realities. If it's still the way you homeschooled 10 years ago or 5 years ago, maybe dump some stuff and refresh.

Then, the kids. Again, zero criticism. I find 14=16 to be a pretty astonishing pain the butt age. Now they also are pretty cool, blossoming people, but they're majorly pains in the butt. They have emotional upheavals, hormonal changes, and BIG everything. So minor things are a big deal and get big reactions, sigh. You sound like you're describing a lot of typical teenage mess. First time through, I didn't get it. Second time through 10 years later, I'm like hello psychiatrist, put this kid on a med. I'm not saying your kid needs a med, but some kids who don't perk up and go off the rails in high school do. Maybe don't assume everything you're seeing is because of YOU. They are a hot mess for lots of reasons and it's not your fault. The only question is whether you can do anything about any of it.

On 5/4/2023 at 12:33 PM, Aspasia said:

He's gotten to the age where now he's asking what the point of life is, because every day he just gets up and does his school (which he hates) and that's it

I'll just toss out that he might blossom with competition. It's a very male thing and gender and these emotional needs matter. 

Here on the homeschool boards you get the impression that almost everyone homeschools all the way through, but I'd venture, with zero studies to back this up only anecdotes, that probably 80-90% of homeschoolers drop out by the end of middle school and move over to a high school enrollment of some kind. Kids have these emotional needs to LAUNCH, to compete, to figure out who they are in comparison to everyone else. Some AP and online classes can help with that and others don't. My dd thrived at that age with competition, so I suggest considering emotional needs as a factor.

Homeschooling is not some universal good that we just cling to and apply to everyone equally. We have to look honestly at each kid as an individual and do what they need that helps them blossom.

On 5/4/2023 at 12:33 PM, Aspasia said:

(Personal interests are art and music, which she does spend at least 2 hours on every day,

So she's doing AP/online classes and her private pursuits. What is she doing socially in or in a group or in a way that gets her RECOGNIZED with pecking order, achievements, success? Her world HAS to expand beyond her family. I only had two kids, so don't listen to me. I just think their world has to become bigger than their family so they can launch. Make her world BIG; get her out of her bedroom. Send her somewhere for three months. Get her out.

On 5/4/2023 at 12:33 PM, Aspasia said:

My 5th and 3rd graders just complain about every single math page or bit of copy work. They hate everything. Third grader groans every day about how pointless math is, asks why she has to do it, etc. I've engaged in these conversations with her about a thousand times, trying to help her school work have meaning in her life. At this point, I'm done. It's very clear that she isn't actually interested in the why, it's just a way to complain and stall. Don't even get me started on more fun things like history or science. Nobody wants to do any of it. What's fun to me, and I think to most kids, is apparently not fun to mine. 

Every single day has become a slog and now I kinda hate homeschooling. 

That seems really fair!! You're not having fun and it's ok to say that. And you know what, you've served your time. What do you WANT to do? That high schooler is about to launch, so changing doesn't make sense. The junior higher could enroll to meet his social/competition/pecking order needs, boom done. So you've got these two youngers. You wouldn't believe how common this is that Mom is like I'm done, I've done this, go enjoy life in a nice classroom. The kids survive, everyone survives. Sometimes by that point Mom has her own goals, things she wants to do/study. Have you been honest with yourself about what you want? Do you WANT to be home or do you WANT to be doing something else? You may just have to be very honest with yourself about this. Maybe take some time for self-reflection. 

So I'll just ask. Did these kids have a spring break? Are they burnt out? Usually about this time, at least in our house people have spring fever and just want to be out. Homeschooling in May can be a lost cause, haha. Have you thought about taking a break or doing something really different? We used to do May Term where I'd pick something (a unit study, an art book, whatever) and we'd do just that in May. With my son, honestly, I travel. Don't even ask what crazy travel we're getting ready to do. 

If you don't feel well, nothing is going to go well. You have to take care of yourself. I'm not sure from your post what part of this is your health or intrinsic to you (shifting needs, shifting health, whatever) and what part is just normal burnout and readiness for a change. Do you have a trusted homeschooling friend locally who could sit down with you and review things and give you advice? In our state we are required to do portfolio reviews, so we have slews of certified teacher homeschoolers who will sit down and for a small fee review your year and give you some chaste advice. I ALWAYS recommend this. 

You have so many good options and maybe you need to be free to take advantage of them. Take care of yourself.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Are you sure this was the most helpful thing to say

Perhaps there was a more delicate way to say it, but I did feel like something needed to be said about it.  She used very dismissive language describing her son's interests.  She clearly doesn't see value in Pokemon, video games, or sports.  It's hard for a kid not to take that personally, which is going to be detrimental to the parent-child relationship and there is no real way to hide that from our kids. That's the plot line of so many kids' TV shows and movies, where the academic-minded parents have to learn to support their sporty kid, or the sporty family has to learn to accept their more academic-oriented child.  Our kids aren't carbon copies of us and that has to be ok.

Working on the relationship is common advice for bad attitudes.  This would be a good place to start working on the relationship.  

There is a lot to find valuable in Pokemon and video games and sports.  Sports seem obvious, of course, but Pokemon and even video games can be worthwhile hobbies for a young teen.  My youngest kiddo plays Pokemon at a local comic book store most weeks.  It's actually got a lot of problem-solving and strategy to it, not to mention the social and competitive aspects.  It's no less valuable as a pursuit than playing chess would be.   And for all the derision towards video games, they can have really sophisticated storylines, incredible world-building and require complex problem-solving.  There are things to value in these activities, if you look for the good.  

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Eos]

Hugs to you, OP, such a tough spot.  

I appreciate what Heartstrings is saying about seeing screen time with a different lens. The biggest risk of screens is ennui, in my opinion.

Cognitive dissonance can help - I love the idea of May term, and everything else that PeterPan said.

There are other ways besides school at home and sending to school. Are there people nearby who do interesting things and might be willing to mentor your kids?  I feel strongly that this was a big part of my kids retaining their love of learning.  Connecting kids with a grown-up who's doing cool stuff and loves it is the single biggest piece of advice I have for any homeschoolers. True mentoring is different than just teaching - it's the mentor also showing the kid their expertise and their passion for the topic which is inspiring in multiple ways. It's also different than taking a group class because it gives space for the relationship between them to flourish one-on-one.

Obviously, you need to carefully consider fit and safety, and the reality that some grown-ups just aren't good mentors even if they see themselves this way.  I've found mentors who were retired or still working, some I paid, some I made meals for, some had my kid help them with projects like stacking wood.  My kids have (individually) spent time doing the following and more with mentors: rock climbing including learning to build anchors and lead; music theory; mad-scientist chemistry; costume design, sewing, horse care; watercolor painting; botany.  It's usually started with me arranging a lesson or two and then discerning whether it seems like a worthwhile situation to support. Sometimes it just peters out and the child has still gotten something good out of it. If it's a real fit and the child is inspired, then finding them books, videos, performances, and even college majors all flow easily from the subject being shared.

I don't really know anyone else who does this but it's been a huge part of our homeschool.

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Perhaps there was a more delicate way to say it, but I did feel like something needed to be said about it. 

No, not really. And you'll notice, she didn't come back and post. She probably read that and went fine, not a safe place to talk.

I'm a pretty blunt person too, so I get where you're coming from. 

I hope she comes back to read other people's comments.

Edited May 6, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Eos said:

I don't really know anyone else who does this but it's been a huge part of our homeschool.

You have the disadvantage of less people posting on the boards these days. It used to be that SWB would go to homeschool conventions and talk, and it would drive up people on the boards. That drove the oldies crazy, so many of them left. If you want to see your heritage, haha, you could do google site searches. You use your terms plus "site:welltrainedmind.com" in your google bar and you'll get all kinds of hits. So say you wanted to know if anyone had their kids doing costume design on the boards over the last 20 years (hint, they have), you could google site search for that. 🙂 

You can even put in user names to make it more useful. So maybe you wanted to know everything peterpan did for math over the years (don't do this, haha), then you could search "peterpan math site:welltrainedmind.com" and see what pops up. I spent a LOT of time over the years researching people like this to see both what they did and how it turned out. Interesting stuff.

6 hours ago, Eos said:

If it's a real fit and the child is inspired, then finding them books, videos, performances, and even college majors all flow easily from the subject being shared.

Yes! National History Day is another amazing way that plays out.

We had a point where someone was really sad to realize her super high scoring kid was NOT getting the scholarship offers she thought routinely came with scores like that. What she didn't realize was that schools look for *interesting* people and people with leadership and people skills. Well that and earning skills to become donating alumni, haha. But still, it starts with being interesting! And these things are so good for mental health too. Being able to do them and academics shows you're a diverse, strong person who will bring a lot to the next setting.

My son has more disabilities and is not really a college candidate, but to me these diverse activities are leisure skills and the things that give him a good life!! They build self-confidence and mojo. They help him meet his demons. 🙂

All of which is to say you're doing great, keep doing it. I had this friend here on the boards (who no longer posts, sigh) who used to imply that if everyone just did things they way she did that they would be fine. What I've learned, having been around a long time, is that there are so many mixes and blends. We make the blend that suits our kid and their situation and their reality. And we tend to think someone else is better or feel insecure if no one is doing things like us. I suggest just looking at your kid, and if they're thriving it's fine. 🙂 

[Aspasia]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:06 PM, cintinative said:

Are there any family stressors or other situations that are impacting your day-to-day that could be a sort of "emotional/mental load" your kids are carrying in addition to school? (For example, illness, taking care of grandparents, new work situation for a parent, etc.)?

Well, we did just move to a new state. And from a big city to a rural/exurban community. The whole moving process has definitely thrown us off. And my husband and I have been having a lot of relationship issues as well. I'm definitely not at my best. These homeschool problems predate any of this, but I'm sure it's not helping!

[Aspasia]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:58 PM, 8filltheheart said:

It may sound trite, but don't accept the complaining and attitudes.  A rotten apple spoils the bushel is a true statement.  Negativity feeds negativity: IOW, it's contagious.  

Children need to understand that not all emotions deserve to be recognized or expressed.  We are rationale beings who possess the ability to control our emotional responses to situations.  Dislikes and likes are not the basis for how humans function.  Life is full of duty which might be a drudge, but without fulfilling our daily obligations, how would life actually function?

Maybe have a discussion and prove its validity.  You go on a laundry, cooking, cleaning, driving, and providing strike for a day.  (No tv, no internet,no phone, no lights.....no $$ from a job paying for those luxuries means you don't have them.)  Bills are paid from earning $$ from working.  You want to eat?  Someone has to pay for the food, go to the store and buy it, prepare and cook it, and clean up afterward. 

If everyone doesn't fulfill their role in a family, chaos will reign.  One person not carrying their weight puts the burden on others.  One person's complaining impacts the atmosphere of the entire household! A child's job is to learn.....to learn academic skills, social skills, life skills.  Complaining about a given is not acceptable.  If they don't like something, they need to learn to just keep it to themselves and grin and bear it.  If they want to be a constant negative, then there should be consequences for making everyone else endure their miserable attitude.

FWIW, I do believe sometimes there are justified complaints.  Those need to listened to and addressed.  Sometimes an assignment is so overwhelming that it needs to be broken down into more manageable pieces or a better foundation provided.  But that is distinctly different than laziness or self-pity bc they want to play vs. work.  Hormones can also wreak havoc on emotions.  But, learning to cope with emotions is a life skill.  Being controlled by emotions and desires is the alternative.  IOW, just because you have an emotion or a desire does not mean it is an appropriate response.

Oh, I was so hoping you would respond! I love this advice, and definitely think we could use a family meeting where we talk about this stuff and I just make it clear that I won't be entertaining the complaints. I have sort of been saying that to a couple of the habitual complainers (after I explained why we have to do it a hundred times before I realized that they aren't actually interested in why, they just don't want to do it). But this is just good life advice. I've been realizing lately that much of our problems as a society are rooted in obsessing over every little feeling and giving emotions way more energy than they deserve. Thank you so much. 

[Aspasia]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:42 PM, Heartstrings said:

Ont thing that stood out reading your description is that I don’t see any social time.  You said you’re active with activities and culture, but are your teens getting hang out time with friends of their choice to be frivolous and silly?  Outside of a structured event or activity, so not youth group.  That is a real need for a lot of teenagers.  
 

You’re oldest might be burned out, dual enrollment and APs in 10th grade might honestly be too much. That’s not college prep, it’s college in high school.  There is something to be said for doing high school level work in high school. Maybe she needs the rigor backed off a bit.  Not to slacker land, just down from college level to maybe honors level high school for a few subjects.  Save the DE and AP for only a select few classes.  
 

You seem very dismissive of your sons interest.  I can tell from a few sentences that you don’t value his interest, it’s likely he feels that and interprets it as rejection.  That might fuel some bad attitudes.  

Oh, they have TONS of social time. We have a very active homeschool community, tons of groups and activities. Lots of sports. And they spend lots of unstructured time with friends. If anything, honestly, they could use LESS of that, because most of your life is running around meeting up with friends. anything that's not fun feels like a drag. 

I'm not dismissive of my son's interests. But Pokemon and video games aren't school. Fun is fun, but sometimes we have to get things done. 

[cintinative]

13 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

Well, we did just move to a new state. And from a big city to a rural/exurban community. The whole moving process has definitely thrown us off. And my husband and I have been having a lot of relationship issues as well. I'm definitely not at my best. These homeschool problems predate any of this, but I'm sure it's not helping!

honestly, this could be a very real source of stress for all of you.  Is there any possibility of taking some time away from school to do some fun family things together?  

ETA: And, it is affecting your mental/emotional load, even if you might not see it as clearly. Sometimes when we are carrying a lot, the behaviors of our children that used to only irritate us a little become intolerable. Sometimes we just feel overwhelmed and the demands made of us seem too much. Those are times to show ourselves compassion and take a break to regroup. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by cintinative

[Aspasia]

21 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So she's doing AP/online classes and her private pursuits. What is she doing socially in or in a group or in a way that gets her RECOGNIZED with pecking order, achievements, success? Her world HAS to expand beyond her family. I only had two kids, so don't listen to me. I just think their world has to become bigger than their family so they can launch. Make her world BIG; get her out of her bedroom. Send her somewhere for three months. Get her out.

We just moved from NYC, where this kid had a super active social life. She was out and about all over the city with her friends all the time. We hosted large groups of teens at our apartment every week for game nights and whatnot. She took fun homeschooling classes at the Met. She plays soccer. If anything, my kids could use LESS social time. 

And the move also gave everyone a few weeks off from school while I unpacked and got settled in. But I know the upheaval is taking its toll on everyone for sure. Probably me most of all! *Sigh* This is hard. 

[Aspasia]

20 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Perhaps there was a more delicate way to say it, but I did feel like something needed to be said about it.  She used very dismissive language describing her son's interests.  She clearly doesn't see value in Pokemon, video games, or sports.  It's hard for a kid not to take that personally, which is going to be detrimental to the parent-child relationship and there is no real way to hide that from our kids. That's the plot line of so many kids' TV shows and movies, where the academic-minded parents have to learn to support their sporty kid, or the sporty family has to learn to accept their more academic-oriented child.  Our kids aren't carbon copies of us and that has to be ok.

Working on the relationship is common advice for bad attitudes.  This would be a good place to start working on the relationship.  

There is a lot to find valuable in Pokemon and video games and sports.  Sports seem obvious, of course, but Pokemon and even video games can be worthwhile hobbies for a young teen.  My youngest kiddo plays Pokemon at a local comic book store most weeks.  It's actually got a lot of problem-solving and strategy to it, not to mention the social and competitive aspects.  It's no less valuable as a pursuit than playing chess would be.   And for all the derision towards video games, they can have really sophisticated storylines, incredible world-building and require complex problem-solving.  There are things to value in these activities, if you look for the good.  

 

I most definitely do value sports. If you saw our family schedule (and my own life as a youth and an adult), you'd know that sports are actually a primary value in my life. That was just a part of the list of things he loves, which I'm actually not dismissing. I participate in them with him. They just aren't sufficient in themselves as an education, which is what he would prefer.

You seem really defensive of screens. Do your thing.  I see value in some screen time, but I choose to limit it because I prefer how my kids spend their time when they're NOT on screens. That's my thing. You do yours. 

[Arcadia]

10 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

Well, we did just move to a new state. And from a big city to a rural/exurban community. 

 

3 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

Oh, they have TONS of social time. We have a very active homeschool community, tons of groups and activities. Lots of sports. And they spend lots of unstructured time with friends. If anything, honestly, they could use LESS of that, because most of your life is running around meeting up with friends. anything that's not fun feels like a drag. 

While my kids are supposedly introverts, they love being surrounded by humans and prefer densely populated areas. So since your move was recent, I would “allow” them more social time to make and keep friends in your current location.
 

My husband is the kind that is industrious. He may complain but still study hard for As. I am the kind that complain once and then purposely fail the tasks/exams. Where we are from, getting As in math and physics national exams would get you into engineering school so we could literally fail English and other “not relevant to your major” exams. I have a cousin who gave up on school and so purposely failed high school. He worked many years and then went to community college. So you would have to customize your reactions to your children’s complaints. 

[Aspasia]

14 hours ago, Eos said:

Hugs to you, OP, such a tough spot.  

I appreciate what Heartstrings is saying about seeing screen time with a different lens. The biggest risk of screens is ennui, in my opinion.

Cognitive dissonance can help - I love the idea of May term, and everything else that PeterPan said.

There are other ways besides school at home and sending to school. Are there people nearby who do interesting things and might be willing to mentor your kids?  I feel strongly that this was a big part of my kids retaining their love of learning.  Connecting kids with a grown-up who's doing cool stuff and loves it is the single biggest piece of advice I have for any homeschoolers. True mentoring is different than just teaching - it's the mentor also showing the kid their expertise and their passion for the topic which is inspiring in multiple ways. It's also different than taking a group class because it gives space for the relationship between them to flourish one-on-one.

Obviously, you need to carefully consider fit and safety, and the reality that some grown-ups just aren't good mentors even if they see themselves this way.  I've found mentors who were retired or still working, some I paid, some I made meals for, some had my kid help them with projects like stacking wood.  My kids have (individually) spent time doing the following and more with mentors: rock climbing including learning to build anchors and lead; music theory; mad-scientist chemistry; costume design, sewing, horse care; watercolor painting; botany.  It's usually started with me arranging a lesson or two and then discerning whether it seems like a worthwhile situation to support. Sometimes it just peters out and the child has still gotten something good out of it. If it's a real fit and the child is inspired, then finding them books, videos, performances, and even college majors all flow easily from the subject being shared.

I don't really know anyone else who does this but it's been a huge part of our homeschool.

I love this idea! Definitely going to chat with kids and look for some mentors. Thank you so much!

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

Well, we did just move to a new state. And from a big city to a rural/exurban community. The whole moving process has definitely thrown us off. And my husband and I have been having a lot of relationship issues as well. I'm definitely not at my best. These homeschool problems predate any of this, but I'm sure it's not helping!

Moving is so, so hard, especially on teens.  We just did that last year and honestly, I don’t think my teen has recovered yet. I’m only starting to feel “at home” now, many months later.    

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

We just moved from NYC, where this kid had a super active social life. She was out and about all over the city with her friends all the time. We hosted large groups of teens at our apartment every week for game nights and whatnot. She took fun homeschooling classes at the Met. She plays soccer. If anything, my kids could use LESS social time. 

And the move also gave everyone a few weeks off from school while I unpacked and got settled in. But I know the upheaval is taking its toll on everyone for sure. Probably me most of all! *Sigh* This is hard. 

That was a huge change!!! I'm not sure how well a teenager recovers from that. I moved a bunch as a teen because my dad was in the military. I'm definitely not connected to those later places where I lived.

Have you thought about talking with a counselor? Maybe your insurance has a mental health services benefit you could take advantage of? Taking care of yourself is the first step in taking care of everyone else. Your situation is pretty complex and could probably use someone to help you unpack it and sort it out. Sometimes they see something we miss or can put it a different way so we realize what we need to do next to get things going better.

You could also try a thread on the Chat forum asking how people handled moves and whether they have tips on helping teens transition. You had such a massive transition, I can imagine why it's extra hard for all of you. Are you planning anything this summer that will be rejuvenating or normalizing?

Edited May 7, 2023 by PeterPan

[SKL]

Not a homeschooler, but we've experienced a lot of those attitudes also.  Starting around age 12 or 13, everything Mom ever did or chose has been wrong, wrong, wrong.  😛  You would not believe how much flak I've gotten for serving healthy foods, re-teaching math, going to museums, doing sports together, volunteering together, and enrolling them in fun summer camps.  So I'm posting this to say, don't take it personally against you or your home school.

The move may indeed have been a setback as far as your homeschool routine.  Would it help to take a break from some subjects to do the following:

• Discover your new location.  Maps, local history, community amenities.  Have the kids choose and plan visits (including driving directions etc) to said amenities / historic places.
  • Also include plans to go back and visit the City.
  • If you haven't already done so, try to find at least one local recreational activity / group for each kid to join.
• You now live rural enough to plant food?  Work together on planning, starting, and cultivating a garden and then enjoying the results.  (No doubt there are some science lessons hidden in there, but maybe don't talk up that aspect of it.)
  • If you can also do something with animals, even better.
• Are there home improvements to be done in the near future?  Work together on planning these, including dimensions, colors, purchases, schedules.  (Again ... some math and even a tiny bit of art in there, but we're not talking about that.)

I've also had a hard time with one of my teen daughters just not being into anything, even though she actually has a long list of hobbies/interests and friends.  She just could not figure out a purpose for her existence.  And without that sort of (tentative) anchor, it was harder to make educational choices or see a purpose in them.  While this is frustrating for all involved, in our case at least, it just needed time.  She now has a view of what career she wants to pursue, and we can discuss a lot of the "why's" with that in mind.  So again ... possibly just an age and personality thing, and hopefully it resolves as your teen learns more about himself and about the world.

All that said, it's not a bad idea to look at the local schools and see if they would be a viable option for some or all of your kids at some point.

[Aspasia]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

Not a homeschooler, but we've experienced a lot of those attitudes also.  Starting around age 12 or 13, everything Mom ever did or chose has been wrong, wrong, wrong.  😛  You would not believe how much flak I've gotten for serving healthy foods, re-teaching math, going to museums, doing sports together, volunteering together, and enrolling them in fun summer camps.  So I'm posting this to say, don't take it personally against you or your home school.

The move may indeed have been a setback as far as your homeschool routine.  Would it help to take a break from some subjects to do the following:

• Discover your new location.  Maps, local history, community amenities.  Have the kids choose and plan visits (including driving directions etc) to said amenities / historic places.
  • Also include plans to go back and visit the City.
  • If you haven't already done so, try to find at least one local recreational activity / group for each kid to join.
• You now live rural enough to plant food?  Work together on planning, starting, and cultivating a garden and then enjoying the results.  (No doubt there are some science lessons hidden in there, but maybe don't talk up that aspect of it.)
  • If you can also do something with animals, even better.
• Are there home improvements to be done in the near future?  Work together on planning these, including dimensions, colors, purchases, schedules.  (Again ... some math and even a tiny bit of art in there, but we're not talking about that.)

I've also had a hard time with one of my teen daughters just not being into anything, even though she actually has a long list of hobbies/interests and friends.  She just could not figure out a purpose for her existence.  And without that sort of (tentative) anchor, it was harder to make educational choices or see a purpose in them.  While this is frustrating for all involved, in our case at least, it just needed time.  She now has a view of what career she wants to pursue, and we can discuss a lot of the "why's" with that in mind.  So again ... possibly just an age and personality thing, and hopefully it resolves as your teen learns more about himself and about the world.

All that said, it's not a bad idea to look at the local schools and see if they would be a viable option for some or all of your kids at some point.

These are great ideas. We have definitely been going back to the city a lot because we still have some sports and classes to wrap up (which, honestly, has probably made it harder to orient ourselves in our new place). At the same time, they are involved in new sports teams here in our new town, and the high schooler is doing a really cool teen volunteer program nearby. Once thecity things are done, and now that dd is done with her AP tests, maybe we can get out and enjoy learning about our new town and state a bit. That seems like it should have been an obvious move, huh? But I think with all the time we missed during the move, I have given in a lot more to pressure to "catch up." Thank you for this reminder to take it easy and let the learning be a little different for awhile. 

And yes, we are planning a garden and some chickens! Kids are super excited, especially the high schooler.

[wisdomandtreasures]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:33 AM, Aspasia said:

Third grader groans every day about how pointless math is, asks why she has to do it, etc. I've engaged in these conversations with her about a thousand times, trying to help her school work have meaning in her life.

"Asked and answered. Next question?"