Grammar

[Clarita]

Peaking my interest after the latest language arts topics. I won't be formally doing grammar with my kids for 1 or 2 more years (eldest is a fall baby in Kindergarten). We are a weak language arts family (speaking for the adults in all the languages we have learned).  

I would like thoughts...

1) Thoughts on MCT. I would not be looking at the Poodle level because the samples of Poodle that I saw really confused me. The Island/Town levels look like at least I could make sense of the textbook. Would this be too hard for me?  I don't really know if I'm grammatically correct.

2) Thoughts on Beowulf Grammar. I saw some discussion on this curriculum on the board a long time ago (sounds like when it was new), wondering if those who used it have thoughts on this. 

3) Thoughts on a book that would be easy for me to brush up on this stuff. It'd be nice if it had descriptions of the stuff that I could use with my kids. So, maybe I could be a little more organic with the whole grammar thing. 

Notes: I'm really happy with using Bravewriter for writing. We are doing the new Quill level and it was the only thing that gets my writing reluctant kid to do any of it without a fight. My 4 year old adores it. 

[HomeAgain]

We did Grammar Land in the early years. It's very cute: all the parts of speech are put on trial, with each chapter focusing on one part and its relationship to the others.  It's available online (I think UnderTheHome has it scheduled for 5th).  But you might enjoy brushing up with it, at least the initial concepts.  I made a file of activities/workbook for my kid and then we just carried over into a more formal grammar study afterward, using ELTL to learn more about diagramming and shifting to a more organized study. 

[Ting Tang]

I only have experience with MCT.  We own the Poodle, Town, and Voyage.

I do find Poodle a wee bit abstract.  We skipped Island and are using the Town level for my bright 5th grader.  The grammar book itself is very concise, deep, and packs a lot in.  The student then practices analyzing sentences for the remainder of the year.  Some of it is hard for me, and I have learned a thing or two, but I really like the approach.  I feel my son has learned a lot, even when he doesn't get it all.  I like how the student learns how everything fits together--parts of speech, parts of a sentence, phrases, clauses, etc.  It is all pulled together in a way I am not sure I have seen until now.  My only hesitation to continue using the entire language arts curriculum, though it works together beautifully, is the literature is pretty advanced and perhaps not what I think would entice most kids in those age ranges.  I bought the next level and am not sure if we will use it for that reason.  

[LinRTX]

I loved FLL for introducing grammar. I had the original (2 years in one book). But I love Rod and Staff for its depth. For you, I would say get the 6th grade book and work through it. It is religious, but very thorough.

[countrymum]

We're really liking Rod and Staff here. Kids say it makes sense and they finally feel like they are getting somewhere. We are currently using 4th and 5th levels.I am sure going to use 6th next year and likely will have dd use 5th alongside Memoria Press classical comp finish Fable and begin narrative. She is doing well with this combo now so if it ain't broke.....

I think I will use cottage press primers with my 2nd grader for 2 years before I begin Rod and Staff in 4th. I do not want to try to do grammar with no workbook in 2nd and 3rd;)

Rod and Staff can be quick and oral, independent and written for some students (the lesson is in the student text with answers and extra helps and examples in the teacher book), or taught and then practiced. There is a fair bit of well done writing instruction in there too. It's cheap and reusable. It has lots of Bible examples but does not seem to deal with sectarian issues....

[Brittany1116]

Another vote for Rod and Staff. Oldest has used 2-7 and next year will use 8 while youngest starts in 2. 

[countrymum]

1 hour ago, Brittany1116 said:

Another vote for Rod and Staff. Oldest has used 2-7 and next year will use 8 while youngest starts in 2. 

Brittany, what did you think of level 2? It looked like a lot of writing for a boy who does not yet read really well? What skills does it work on?

[FreyaO]

I'm using MCT Island with my 2nd grader and it's going well (skipped Poodle).

My kid was confused in 1st grade, when a few grammatical terms were introduced "gently" but haphazardly in her b&m school. She didn't get the significance, the structure, and was just guessing randomly. The MCT approach to introduce all terms of speech together in the first 2 months worked really well for her. I feel she has learned a lot already and she is enjoying it. The curriculum is fun for her, but not in a silly, dump-down way.

FWIW, I won't call myself weak in ELA, but I'm a scientist and English is not my first language, so I had very limited English grammar structured study in my life (my first language is European, but distinct from latin/germanic languages). It's working well for me too. The instructor's manuals have all the answers if it'll make you feel more confident.

[Ellie]

13 hours ago, countrymum said:

Brittany, what did you think of level 2? It looked like a lot of writing for a boy who does not yet read really well? What skills does it work on?

Rod and Staff English is a comprehensive English course, covering grammar and composition. You can request a free scope and sequence, as well as free curriculum samples and catalog, by calling the publisher at (606) 522-4348.

I would not do it with a child who does not yet have the reading (and writing, as in penmanship) skills to do the written work. 

[Clarita]

21 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

We did Grammar Land in the early years. It's very cute: all the parts of speech are put on trial, with each chapter focusing on one part and its relationship to the others.  It's available online (I think UnderTheHome has it scheduled for 5th).  But you might enjoy brushing up with it, at least the initial concepts.  I made a file of activities/workbook for my kid and then we just carried over into a more formal grammar study afterward, using ELTL to learn more about diagramming and shifting to a more organized study. 

When did you start Grammar Land? I never thought I could just brush up on it myself using it. That's a really good idea. I think it's super cute too but when I tried to read the story to my kids a few months ago the story went a bit over their heads. 

5 hours ago, FreyaO said:

I'm using MCT Island with my 2nd grader and it's going well (skipped Poodle).

My kid was confused in 1st grade, when a few grammatical terms were introduced "gently" but haphazardly in her b&m school. She didn't get the significance, the structure, and was just guessing randomly. The MCT approach to introduce all terms of speech together in the first 2 months worked really well for her. I feel she has learned a lot already and she is enjoying it. The curriculum is fun for her, but not in a silly, dump-down way.

This is what it is for me too grammatical terms were introduced haphazardly throughout K-12. Like your daughter I was very unclear about why it's useful beyond because you are suppose to be able identify the parts of speech or other random terminology. I didn't connect that the grammar stuff would help my own writing clarity until college when my technical writing lecturer decided the class's grammar was so bad she needed to take a week off the curriculum to teach us something about grammar. So I'm interested in front loading the information and then let's apply it and see how that information is useful.

[HomeAgain]

24 minutes ago, Clarita said:

When did you start Grammar Land? I never thought I could just brush up on it myself using it. That's a really good idea. I think it's super cute too but when I tried to read the story to my kids a few months ago the story went a bit over their heads.

We started in 1st, but we went really slowly, like a chapter a week.  I made little stand up characters for my kid to play with while we read part of it, like these.

I think it's an easy way for an adult to reintroduce themselves to concepts - make it stick a little easier in the mind than just a plain grammar text.

I also thought of another thing.  There's an old volume called The Child's Own English Book, which introduces just the parts of speech through classroom games.  It's probably more at a 1st-3rd level, even adapting some of the games for smaller homes or modern children.

[Clarita]

56 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

We started in 1st, but we went really slowly, like a chapter a week.  I made little stand up characters for my kid to play with while we read part of it, like these.

That's a great idea. 

[Brittany1116]

On 1/5/2023 at 9:57 PM, countrymum said:

Brittany, what did you think of level 2? It looked like a lot of writing for a boy who does not yet read really well? What skills does it work on?

We liked it a lot. I used it easily with my older boy when he was technically in first grade, and will be using it again with my younger in second. There isn't a ton of writing necessary. 

I just pulled out the student text. I should say that I don't have mine read the lesson or work alone in English until at least grade 4. We read together and do some written work, some oral. You have to build hand stamina.

Lesson 1 is on sentences and requires the child to answer numbers 1-3 with a single word from a word bank. Then, they read 10 phrase sets and decide if A or B is a complete sentence. This could be done on paper or aloud. For writing practice, they can continue to write the 4 complete sentences they find in a set of 7 phrases.

Halfway through the book, they discuss plural vs singular. There is a 12 question oral drill. Then they have to write 4 sentences about their family, 2 using US and 2 using WE. After that, 4 sentences about self, 2 each I and ME. 

Towards the end, there is a lesson on choosing synonyms for 6 words from a word bank after looking them up in the dictionary. 

I feel the entire sequence progresses well and is appropriate at every level. 7 has definitely taught me things I never learned in public school or college, but my child grasps it easily because of how it has built incrementally. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Brittany1116
Thick thumbs

[daijobu]

We didn't have Poodle level when my kids were little.  The 4 level sentence analysis practice books were absolutely key.  The grammar lessons stuck with them through high school.  I also enjoyed the Caesar's English vocabulary lessons, in Levels 2 and 3.  

[Clarita]

57 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I also enjoyed the Caesar's English vocabulary lessons, in Levels 2 and 3.  

Why did you skip level 1? 

[Helpdesk]

This article from the WTM FAQs might be of interest and help.  It is a summary of Susan Wise Bauer's recommendations for Language Arts, and there are a couple of links in the article that go a little deeper into specific topics.  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

Why did you skip level 1? 

Caesar’s English only appears in Levels 2 & 3. There is a much shorter, simpler Intro to Latin-based vocabulary in Level 1 called Building Language & in later levels the vocabulary books are titled Vocabulary of Literature & Word Within the Word.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[ArtHaus]

We have used MCT for the past 3 years (we did Grammar Town two years in a row) and LOVE it. Of all the curricula that have graced our kitchen/homeschool table, MCT is a favorite. I couldn’t say that they have ever complained about one Grammar lesson. And it is probably the only program that I have not considered, at any time, changing.

I love how Grammar is introduced in MCT. The story format is charming, and although relaxing to read with the children, is very meaty. My boys greatly enjoyed Mud, along with the Mud Trilogy.

My only critique would be that, well, it is pricey, but well worth it. Also, the writing in Grammar Town and Paragraph Town can be somewhat abstract, but IMHO, very easy to adapt and modify as needed. With that said, we use IEW for a more structured approach to writing, while MCT is more free and a bit deeper/complex. For example, for the Poetry portion in Grammar Town, I had to modify most of the activities, as my then 7-8 year old could not write poetry to that level (and still struggle). However, they have done much better with Paragraph Town. Lastly, I understand that this is English, but the sort of over glorification of Roman/Western Culture is a bit much for me. I mean, I get it, the English-Latin-Roman connection, but I amend some of the history portions. I just….too much glorification of Western Culture is irritating, but this is truly my own personal pet peeve and not something that most people probably consider, or perhaps need to consider.

Again, even though I have some minor complaints, I think that it is an outstanding program, and  chock full of beautiful poetry, excerpts, vocabulary, and writing. My children have flourished. On a more superficial note (maybe?), the books are beeeaaauuuutiful, and my art loving self is very pleased with the art direction. 

[daijobu]

20 hours ago, Clarita said:

Why did you skip level 1? 

We didn't skip it.  I just really, really like CE 1 and 2.  WWW in the subsequent levels was a disappointment, but I'm not sure if they've updated it since I used them.  

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, HeatherW said:

We have used MCT for the past 3 years (we did Grammar Town two years in a row) and LOVE it. Of all the curricula that have graced our kitchen/homeschool table, MCT is a favorite. I couldn’t say that they have ever complained about one Grammar lesson. And it is probably the only program that I have not considered, at any time, changing.

I love how Grammar is introduced in MCT. The story format is charming, and although relaxing to read with the children, is very meaty. My boys greatly enjoyed Mud, along with the Mud Trilogy.

My only critique would be that, well, it is pricey, but well worth it. Also, the writing in Grammar Town and Paragraph Town can be somewhat abstract, but IMHO, very easy to adapt and modify as needed. With that said, we use IEW for a more structured approach to writing, while MCT is more free and a bit deeper/complex. For example, for the Poetry portion in Grammar Town, I had to modify most of the activities, as my then 7-8 year old could not write poetry to that level (and still struggle). However, they have done much better with Paragraph Town. Lastly, I understand that this is English, but the sort of over glorification of Roman/Western Culture is a bit much for me. I mean, I get it, the English-Latin-Roman connection, but I amend some of the history portions. I just….too much glorification of Western Culture is irritating, but this is truly my own personal pet peeve and not something that most people probably consider, or perhaps need to consider.

Again, even though I have some minor complaints, I think that it is an outstanding program, and  chock full of beautiful poetry, excerpts, vocabulary, and writing. My children have flourished. On a more superficial note (maybe?), the books are beeeaaauuuutiful, and my art loving self is very pleased with the art direction. 

My son really likes Roman culture, so that part of MCT has been a good fit for us.  I admit---I do feel like it has a more "boyish" appeal, for some reason?  lol  In using another writing program, do you still read the MCT books on writing, or do you skip that, too?  I don't like to mix and match a whole lot because I usually see how beautifully packaged curriculums work together.  The literature illustrations are great for grammar, too, but I am just concerned by Voyage the literature won't interest him very much.

[ArtHaus]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

My son really likes Roman culture, so that part of MCT has been a good fit for us.  I admit---I do feel like it has a more "boyish" appeal, for some reason?  lol  In using another writing program, do you still read the MCT books on writing, or do you skip that, too?  I don't like to mix and match a whole lot because I usually see how beautifully packaged curriculums work together.  The literature illustrations are great for grammar, too, but I am just concerned by Voyage the literature won't interest him very much.

Interesting, I never really thought of it as “boyish”. That is a good observation, maybe it is because I have boys, but yes, it is quite “boyish”:) However, to answer your question, yes. We utilize every bit of every book in the MCT package. I really enjoy all of it, and find all of it beneficial. I just still feel like I need to use a “traditional” approach along with MCT. I think MCT simply approaches writing from a different angle, and that is okay, and maybe for some folks that is complete. For us, I just wanted to make sure we have something that is a bit more structured, or traditional in its approach to writing. Structured and abstract are both necessary IMHO.  

We will do Voyage next year. I have high hopes that my kiddos will enjoy it:). I agree with the Literature seeming a bit boring. We have been doing the literature, but I certainly wouldn’t choose some of the books included, and I don’t find the Lit books as necessary to the curriculum as a whole. I actually would expect the Lit to be a bit more challenging. My boys were really not interested in Alice in Wonderland, lol. The core of the program is a must, but the Lit section is a toss up:)

[Ting Tang]

Just now, HeatherW said:

Interesting, I never really thought of it as “boyish”. That is a good observation, maybe it is because I have boys, but yes, it is quite “boyish”:) However, to answer your question, yes. We utilize every bit of every book in the MCT package. I really enjoy all of it, and find all of it beneficial. I just still feel like I need to use a “traditional” approach along with MCT. I think MCT simply approaches writing from a different angle, and that is okay, and maybe for some folks that is complete. For us, I just wanted to make sure we have something that is a bit more structured, or traditional in its approach to writing. Structured and abstract are both necessary IMHO.  

We will do Voyage next year. I have high hopes that my kiddos will enjoy it:). I agree with the Literature seeming a bit boring. We have been doing the literature, but I certainly wouldn’t choose some of the books included, and I don’t find the Lit books as necessary to the curriculum as a whole. I actually would expect the Lit to be a more challenging. My boys were really not interested in Alice in Wonderland, lol. The core of the program is a must, but the Lit section is a toss up:)

Thank you so much for sharing!  Well, I feel pretty good then about choosing another writing program.  As for the literature, we got through Alica in Wonderland.  The first several pages of Peter Pan haven't quite hooked either of us.  I think there is just so much out there for this age group that I'd rather he read first.

[Resilient]

I gave up on R&S because the sample sentences were too formulaic. The  grammar "skills" didn't transfer over to real life writing and analysis. 

[Clarita]

I just want to say I'm considering all the comments and thinking it through. 

[lmrich]

I love FLL (we  had the older one, too) for first and second grade with  MCT mixed in. And then Rod and Staff for fourth and  fifth grade. Then Easy Grammar for a year (learning how to cross out prepositional phrases makes grammar easier),  and then  back to Rod and Staff or maybe MCT.  

[Nm.]

My kids have used rod and staff a couple years and it definitely has transferred to all their other work.  They even correct me.  They do everything, written work, barely anything oral unless it says so.  I am using FLL for 1st/2nd (didn’t with others, but it’s been fun).  2nd grade rod and staff book for 3rd and continue from there.  I also haven’t taught much for rod and staff, sometimes go over a lesson/concept.  Extremely pleased.  The 2nd grade rod and staff book I love for emerging/ young readers.  It is a lot of copywork, which I appreciate.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Lovinglife123