Ballet/Jazz Levels

[Ting Tang]

My daughter in in her second year of ballet/jazz at her current studio.  We really like the studio; however, she has been involved in an artistic sport since age 3.  She has had a lot of ballet training within that sport and works on flexibility daily.  It's at the point now where her artistic sport requires more intense training in ballet/jazz than what she receives at her current studio.  But she needs the outside dance training.

Keep in mind she is in the 2nd grade.  Most of the other younger dancers have not been involved in the type of activities she has been in, so I am sure the level is fine for them.

She is the type of child who in a group will just go with the flow. I honestly don't think most understand her skills there, despite my emails and inquiries for private lessons (can't get those).  The policy is to drop them off at the door.  The other day she told me that her teachers are also dancers at the studio, so I now know she is being taught by high school girls---not people with any sort of professional background.  I am paying $50/month.  

We do get sneak peeks through FB videos.  And I am a bit disappointed by what I see.

My husband, who is NOT really into competitive kid activities at all, agrees with me. He's been to enough of her events to know what is required.

Going to a different studio would mean extra driving time, which I cannot really do.  I don't even know what is expected at her age at other studios; I do know there are girls who do competitive dance at this age, and what I see in videos is light years ahead of what I see from the classes.

So I became a "dance mom" today and asked if there was any way to at least put her into the next level class at the very least.  Has anyone had this experience?  I feel like I might annoy someone or upset them, but I was hoping I could just work with the studio to get her what she needs.  Private lessons would be best, but I have found nobody around here to give them. We had one teacher, but she moved out of state.  My daughter was doing harder things two years ago in those lessons.  The way my daughter is, she will just go with the flow of the class, so nobody would suspect much.

Any thoughts?  Experiences?  Do studios vary greatly?

 

[City Mouse]

I don’t have a lot of experience, but yes, dance studios vary a great deal. I will say that only $50 per month sounds low to me so I suspect that your current studio is not focused on competitive dance. My DD is grown now, but I paid more than that for her to take developmental classes (non-competition) 20 yrs ago at a studio that was very into competitions.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by City Mouse

[teachermom2834]

Yes, studios vary greatly. There are all types of studios. Most studios seem to try to keep kids roughly with their age level and won’t be anxious to move kids up a whole lot. Another thing that seems counterintuitive is that the most serious ballet studios do not take classes for the little ones super seriously. You probably would get more of what you are looking from a competition type studio if that is available to you. 

But it sounds like there is nothing available to you except moving up a level? So I guess you can try that if that is the only option you have. But you really might find if your studio is not very serious that there isn’t a big jump at the older levels, honestly. Recreational dance studios might never meet your standards. 
 

A lot of dance studios just aren’t very intense or rigorous at any age, and definitely not when they are young. The competition studios do seem to push more in terms of flexibility etc, while it is probably up for debate if those tricks etc are even the best things for little bodies. So, really, with dance studios you really need to shop around for what meets your needs. If this is the only one available to you I would just make it work or drop it. 

[Ting Tang]

23 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

I don’t have a lot of experience, but yes, dance studios vary a great deal. I will say that only $50 per month sounds low to me so I suspect that your current studio is not focused on competitive dance. My DD is grown now, but I paid more than that for her to take developmental classes (non-competition) 20 yrs ago at a studio that was very into competitions.

 

Thank you! The price is typical of the general area. I spend much more on other things, but aside from having fun being around other girls her age, I don’t feel she’s gotten anything much out of it. Now, they do have competition teams, but it’s open to the older ones. The curriculum also goes through pointe. So it baffles me a bit. I wonder if we should just stay the course knowing that at times. 

[Ting Tang]

21 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Yes, studios vary greatly. There are all types of studios. Most studios seem to try to keep kids roughly with their age level and won’t be anxious to move kids up a whole lot. Another thing that seems counterintuitive is that the most serious ballet studios do not take classes for the little ones super seriously. You probably would get more of what you are looking from a competition type studio if that is available to you. 

But it sounds like there is nothing available to you except moving up a level? So I guess you can try that if that is the only option you have. But you really might find if your studio is not very serious that there isn’t a big jump at the older levels, honestly. Recreational dance studios might never meet your standards. 
 

A lot of dance studios just aren’t very intense or rigorous at any age, and definitely not when they are young. The competition studios do seem to push more in terms of flexibility etc, while it is probably up for debate if those tricks etc are even the best things for little bodies. So, really, with dance studios you really need to shop around for what meets your needs. If this is the only one available to you I would just make it work or drop it. 

I wonder, too, if it will ever meet my standards in that regard. They do offer pointe, so it is baffling. We just want good solid ballet training. And honestly I had the thought she should be at least 3 levels higher there from what I have seen. It’s not that she is phenomenal at ballet, but I just don’t think they’re teaching much at these levels. Thanks for making these points—- I’m not crazy, lol. We like the location and how they do keep it family friendly there. So I hate to leave. 

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

I wonder, too, if it will ever meet my standards in that regard. They do offer pointe, so it is baffling. We just want good solid ballet training. And honestly I had the thought she should be at least 3 levels higher there from what I have seen. It’s not that she is phenomenal at ballet, but I just don’t think they’re teaching much at these levels. Thanks for making these points—- I’m not crazy, lol. We like the location and how they do keep it family friendly there. So I hate to leave. 

Well…there are some places that do pointe very badly so just having pointe isn’t a test. My dd has been in two of those places. It made me nervous she would get hurt, though, so I moved her someplace better even though she will never catch up to the girls who have always been there. There is a lot of bad pointe (and just plain bad dancing) out there. So you have to know your goals. My dd doesn’t need professional training but I wasn’t comfortable with really bad pointe. Everyone has different goals. 

[Hilltopmom]

Sounds like you want a pre professional ballet studio, not a recreational dance studio.

(ETA- Or you want a competition studio that offers private lessons. That will cost big bucks and you’ll be expected to do the competitions which is also big money and travel. There are girls that young doing serious competitions with multiple solo routines in each one- they are practicing every night of the week that they aren’t traveling.)

 

But you have spoken before about your Dd and her other sport, and tbh I think it’s too much, too young for any child that age.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[Clarita]

So, I've heard pointe shouldn't be done with kids younger than 11? No matter where they are technically, something having to do with how bodies develop. In fact my friend's sister who dabbled in professional dance warned strongly against that when I asked her about putting my little girl into dance. Also I know there are dance studios who get their students doing things way before they should be attempting those moves/techniques.

Of course some dance studios are more serious than others and maybe this isn't a super serious studio.

I think you need to review your and your daughter's goals and see if the move to a more competitive studio is in the cards. If you really do like this studio maybe talk with them about the ultimate goals you and your daughter have for dance and ask honestly about whether they can get you there or not.

[catz]

Well that is about what I would expect at a rec based class for $50 a month.  Is that 1 hour a week?  

You seem very intense on this particular young child's activities.  Has she talked about what she wants to do?  If she is go with the flow and isn't complaining, then maybe moving to a more competitive studio isn't the right call for now either.  I would also say ballet levels are more than just about coordination but about physical readiness for different things.  Like I agree, you don't want a kid en pointe until at least 11 or 12.  My daughter started dance at 5 and moved through levels, went en pointe and I watched a slew of girls up into high school.  There were stops and starts in coordination for them all as they grew. Some of the amazing early bloomers had big growth spurts that threw them for a loop for a year or more.  Some were ready for pointe earlier than others. 

If you're really interested in structured ballet training I agree you may want a pre-pro studio.  You could talk about moving up, but I also think there may be good reasons they might say no or not allow more than one level.  Like when you say she could move up 3 levels, to me that sounds like potentially a level that is close to pointe or en pointe.  And no reputable studio would be doing that at all.  A more coordinated 7 year old might just be ready to be a featured dancer among other 7 year olds or in the front line leading.  Also, at level 1, your dance expectations may be 2-3 hours a week.  At level 4, your dance expectations might be 10-12 hours a week and you need that time to build that kind of strength.

At my daughter's studio our main ballet teacher has a daughter that is a few years younger than mine.  She is in high school now.  But she was/is an extremely precocious dancer starting in preschool. This kid is just amazing.  Her mother (who toured nationally with a ballet company) kept her primarily with age peers moving throughout the program.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by catz

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Well…there are some places that do pointe very badly so just having pointe isn’t a test. My dd has been in two of those places. It made me nervous she would get hurt, though, so I moved her someplace better even though she will never catch up to the girls who have always been there. There is a lot of bad pointe (and just plain bad dancing) out there. So you have to know your goals. My dd doesn’t need professional training but I wasn’t comfortable with really bad pointe. Everyone has different goals. 

I'm not sure I would know the difference between good and bad pointe, to be honest, lol.  But I do know they require the girls stay at certain levels for two years or so in preparation for pointe.  What I saw at the recital last year looked wonderful, but it's not something I've really looked into yet.

1 hour ago, Hilltopmom said:

Sounds like you want a pre professional ballet studio, not a recreational dance studio.

(ETA- Or you want a competition studio that offers private lessons. That will cost big bucks and you’ll be expected to do the competitions which is also big money and travel. There are girls that young doing serious competitions with multiple solo routines in each one- they are practicing every night of the week that they aren’t traveling.)

 

But you have spoken before about your Dd and her other sport, and tbh I think it’s too much, too young for any child that age.

 

Yes, we are NOT interested in competition dance at all.  At this point with her other sport, we mainly do contests in state and they are for one day. She did 5 last year, and one of those was at the state fair, lol.  My niece just finished her competition dance career. I do know of two studios that do not do competitions but rather put on performances, and that is probably the caliber of studio I'd prefer. But alas...more driving, lol.  

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

So, I've heard pointe shouldn't be done with kids younger than 11? No matter where they are technically, something having to do with how bodies develop. In fact my friend's sister who dabbled in professional dance warned strongly against that when I asked her about putting my little girl into dance. Also I know there are dance studios who get their students doing things way before they should be attempting those moves/techniques.

Of course some dance studios are more serious than others and maybe this isn't a super serious studio.

I think you need to review your and your daughter's goals and see if the move to a more competitive studio is in the cards. If you really do like this studio maybe talk with them about the ultimate goals you and your daughter have for dance and ask honestly about whether they can get you there or not.

Yes, from what I understand they need to be strong enough to do it.  So we are not trying to rush towards pointe ballet at all.  I would just like some more technique.  I did ballet for a short bit at a community center around her age, and I really believe even I was doing more---and that isn't saying much at all, lol.

33 minutes ago, catz said:

Well that is about what I would expect at a rec based class for $50 a month.  Is that 1 hour a week?  

You seem very intense on this particular young child's activities.  Has she talked about what she wants to do?  If she is go with the flow and isn't complaining, then maybe moving to a more competitive studio isn't the right call for now either.  I would also say ballet levels are more than just about coordination but about physical readiness for different things.  Like I agree, you don't want a kid en pointe until at least 11 or 12.  My daughter started dance at 5 and moved through levels, went en pointe and I watched a slew of girls up into high school.  There were stops and starts in coordination for them all as they grew. Some of the amazing early bloomers had big growth spurts that threw them for a loop for a year or more.  Some were ready for pointe earlier than others. 

If you're really interested in structured ballet training I agree you may want a pre-pro studio.  You could talk about moving up, but I also think there may be good reasons they might say no or not allow more than one level.  Like when you say she could move up 3 levels, to me that sounds like potentially a level that is close to pointe or en pointe.  And no reputable studio would be doing that at all.  A more coordinated 7 year old might just be ready to be a featured dancer among other 7 year olds or in the front line leading.  Also, at level 1, your dance expectations may be 2-3 hours a week.  At level 4, your dance expectations might be 10-12 hours a week and you need that time to build that kind of strength.

At my daughter's studio our main ballet teacher has a daughter that is a few years younger than mine.  She is in high school now.  But she was/is an extremely precocious dancer starting in preschool. This kid is just amazing.  Her mother (who toured nationally with a ballet company) kept her primarily with age peers moving throughout the program.  

Yes, it is just an hour a week.  It does seem recreational in nature.  So far, the routines always have the girls move from back to front, which I truly think is good for young children so that nobody thinks they are better/worse.  I don't really want her to be pressured into doing competitive dance; we just want better ballet training.  So it'd be nice if we could find something close to pre-professional without a drive.  But the little I know about pointe, correct, that is NOT something we want to rush towards because you just can't rush physical development and strength.  I really just want someone to help with leaps, turns, etc.  

[Ailaena]

DS(7) is at a pre-pro studio and they are very, very relaxed at the younger levels while still making sure they leave level 2 with an excellent foundation. I also used to think that “better ballet training” meant super-serious classes  Now I know it’s artistry and musicality in addition to alignment and strength and those are taught in age-appropriate, fun ways while the kids are young  

I’m only assuming your other sport, and just because a child has dance skills appropriate for one sport does not in any way mean it will carry over to the other sport.  A split leap is not a split leap, so to speak. 

Is there somebody at your other sport that can coach her dance?

eta: our dance studio doesn’t even generally start level 1 until 7yo 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Ailaena

[Bootsie]

Many of the mundane looking things in ballet are very important in developing strength and balance.  Evern the professional ballerinas do their plies and tendues every day.  I would be concerned about any ballet school that was seriously working on leaps and turns with second graders.  Seven or eight year olds dancing one day a week cannot have developed the muscle strength to be doing leaps properly.  

[Ting Tang]

10 minutes ago, Ailaena said:

DS(7) is at a pre-pro studio and they are very, very relaxed at the younger levels while still making sure they leave level 2 with an excellent foundation. I also used to think that “better ballet training” meant super-serious classes  Now I know it’s artistry and musicality in addition to alignment and strength and those are taught in age-appropriate, fun ways while the kids are young  

I’m only assuming your other sport, and just because a child has dance skills appropriate for one sport does not in any way mean it will carry over to the other sport.  A split leap is not a split leap, so to speak. 

Is there somebody at your other sport that can coach her dance?

eta: our dance studio doesn’t even generally start level 1 until 7yo 

Her coach works with her a bit but does feel she needs to be in a ballet class.  But thank you---I do appreciate you sharing these thoughts, that many are relaxed at these lower levels.  

[Jenny in Florida]

As others have said, yes, studios vary tremendously. I'll also echo others to say that, although I don't know where you are, $50 per month sounds very, very low. (For reference, my son is now in his mid-20s and I haven't paid for his dance lessons in a good number of years, but I was paying more than that per month for one-hour weekly classes a good decade ago.)

That said, at your daughter's age, I think most "dance studios," as opposed to "pre-professional dance schools" are going to be far too laid back for what you are expecting. The exception might be studios that are very focused on competition, which I would not want for a child that age and which would, in any case, likely require more commitment than your daughter would be available to make alongside her other sport.

At most neighborhood dance studios, it's extremely typical to have older students teach the classes for the younger kids. 

I suspect, in order to get the level of training you are after, you'd have to look at a pre-pro school. However, you'd very quickly run into the same issues I mentioned as you would find with a competition-focused studio, that the amount of time and commitment expected would exceed what would be feasible to fit into your daughter's life alongside her other training.

We ran into something similar when my son was at the pre-pro ballet school here. Although he loved to dance and took it seriously, ballet was not his true passion. He really wanted to be in theatre, not classical ballet. That was okay until he got to be about 10 or 11, when the expectations at the dance school began to ramp up. There was no longer an option for any kind of casual or recreational, single-class enrollment. The presumption was that everyone there was planning to become a ballet dancer, which meant multiple classes each week in different styles, roles in multiple productions each season with all of the rehearsals and costume fittings and performances that entailed, etc. When my son had opportunities to do roles with other theatres in the area, he was constantly in trouble for not being available whenever he was wanted at the dance school. (And I was more than once driven to tears by teachers scolding me for not prioritizing their program.) 

Eventually, he decided not to return after one summer. He then bounced around trying out different studios and schools, most of which were not nearly "serious" or challenging enough for his taste. It took us a good year plus to find a wonderful small, family-run dance studio that combined excellent training with enough flexibility to allow my son to do the things he was taking dance classes to train for. He joined their competition team, eventually became an assistant teacher and then taught classes. The owners and teachers there helped prepare him for his college dance auditions, and he remains in touch with them now.

So, those places exist, but you may have to put a lot of effort into trying out other options until you find one that fits. And, speaking as the mom who routinely spent several hours a day on the road driving two kids and young teens to classes and rehearsals all over the Central Florida area, the right one may not be in your backyard.

Also, one final thing (and I know you didn't ask, but I have to say it): I've never seen a kid who "goes with the flow" be happy or successful in these kinds of activities in the long run when pushed because a parent thinks they should be trying harder. Every kid I've seen in that situation has, sooner or later, burned out and quit.

[Ali in OR]

My dd's ballet studio started Ballet I at about age 8. There were Pre-Ballet classes for 6 and 7 years olds and Creative Movement classes for littles. They followed the Russian Vaganova syllabus--serious technical training. You move to point around age 12 or whenever your foot is ready and that was Ballet IV. No competitions, but wonderful recitals every year and lots of performing opportunities for the highest level dancers in Ballet VI.

[Ting Tang]

8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Many of the mundane looking things in ballet are very important in developing strength and balance.  Evern the professional ballerinas do their plies and tendues every day.  I would be concerned about any ballet school that was seriously working on leaps and turns with second graders.  Seven or eight year olds dancing one day a week cannot have developed the muscle strength to be doing leaps properly.  

I think this is my worry, that they may not even be doing the mundane things enough, too. But that definitely makes sense that most kids are not developed enough at that age to do certain things.  I was just hoping for more. The dance year started after Labor Day, and so they have basically just been learning a dance for the Christmas recital that they have every other year.  

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Jenny in Florida said:

As others have said, yes, studios vary tremendously. I'll also echo others to say that, although I don't know where you are, $50 per month sounds very, very low. (For reference, my son is now in his mid-20s and I haven't paid for his dance lessons in a good number of years, but I was paying more than that per month for one-hour weekly classes a good decade ago.)

That said, at your daughter's age, I think most "dance studios," as opposed to "pre-professional dance schools" are going to be far too laid back for what you are expecting. The exception might be studios that are very focused on competition, which I would not want for a child that age and which would, in any case, likely require more commitment than your daughter would be available to make alongside her other sport.

At most neighborhood dance studios, it's extremely typical to have older students teach the classes for the younger kids. 

I suspect, in order to get the level of training you are after, you'd have to look at a pre-pro school. However, you'd very quickly run into the same issues I mentioned as you would find with a competition-focused studio, that the amount of time and commitment expected would exceed what would be feasible to fit into your daughter's life alongside her other training.

We ran into something similar when my son was at the pre-pro ballet school here. Although he loved to dance and took it seriously, ballet was not his true passion. He really wanted to be in theatre, not classical ballet. That was okay until he got to be about 10 or 11, when the expectations at the dance school began to ramp up. There was no longer an option for any kind of casual or recreational, single-class enrollment. The presumption was that everyone there was planning to become a ballet dancer, which meant multiple classes each week in different styles, roles in multiple productions each season with all of the rehearsals and costume fittings and performances that entailed, etc. When my son had opportunities to do roles with other theatres in the area, he was constantly in trouble for not being available whenever he was wanted at the dance school. (And I was more than once driven to tears by teachers scolding me for not prioritizing their program.) 

Eventually, he decided not to return after one summer. He then bounced around trying out different studios and schools, most of which were not nearly "serious" or challenging enough for his taste. It took us a good year plus to find a wonderful small, family-run dance studio that combined excellent training with enough flexibility to allow my son to do the things he was taking dance classes to train for. He joined their competition team, eventually became an assistant teacher and then taught classes. The owners and teachers there helped prepare him for his college dance auditions, and he remains in touch with them now.

So, those places exist, but you may have to put a lot of effort into trying out other options until you find one that fits. And, speaking as the mom who routinely spent several hours a day on the road driving two kids and young teens to classes and rehearsals all over the Central Florida area, the right one may not be in your backyard.

Also, one final thing (and I know you didn't ask, but I have to say it): I've never seen a kid who "goes with the flow" be happy or successful in these kinds of activities in the long run when pushed because a parent thinks they should be trying harder. Every kid I've seen in that situation has, sooner or later, burned out and quit.

Thank you for sharing your experience! It sounds like you found that needle in the haystack...  And yes, I do not think my daughter should be trying harder in dance class at all.  I just feel like the class should be offering more to her, if that makes sense.  She will often say it is too easy.  And I don't want to make the studio sound horrible, either.  I want more from it, but I also appreciate a lot of things about it.  During Covid, it was one of the few places that kept masking in place for a long time, and they still take great care.  They also make age-appropriate decisions about music, costumes, etc. 

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

My dd's ballet studio started Ballet I at about age 8. There were Pre-Ballet classes for 6 and 7 years olds and Creative Movement classes for littles. They followed the Russian Vaganova syllabus--serious technical training. You move to point around age 12 or whenever your foot is ready and that was Ballet IV. No competitions, but wonderful recitals every year and lots of performing opportunities for the highest level dancers in Ballet VI.

Yes, we are not interested in competition dance.  This is great to know, too, though.  Thanks! 

[catz]

6 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I think this is my worry, that they may not even be doing the mundane things enough, too. But that definitely makes sense that most kids are not developed enough at that age to do certain things.  I was just hoping for more. The dance year started after Labor Day, and so they have basically just been learning a dance for the Christmas recital that they have every other year.  

Well I also think in one hour a week, there really is only so much they can do.  Especially if they're doing like pre-ballet and pre-jazz in that one hour.  

I would definitely not be expecting turns or leaps at this age in a class like this.  

$50 for 4 hours of class a month actually seems reasonable.  I was thinking you were getting maybe like 90 minutes pre-ballet and 60 minutes jazz or something for that price.  

[Ting Tang]

11 minutes ago, catz said:

Well I also think in one hour a week, there really is only so much they can do.  Especially if they're doing like pre-ballet and pre-jazz in that one hour.  

I would definitely not be expecting turns or leaps at this age in a class like this.  

$50 for 4 hours of class a month actually seems reasonable.  I was thinking you were getting maybe like 90 minutes pre-ballet and 60 minutes jazz or something for that price.  

Nope, it isn't a whole lot.  In a way, I am glad that I don't have a huge menu of options at her age at her current studio, so I do not feel like we have to sign up for a gazillion things.  I do know the higher levels go on longer, and then they start separating ballet and jazz.  I wish there was an easier way to see what other classes do at this age.  Sigh.  I appreciate your thoughts, though!

[Annie G]

If her coach suggested it, does coach perhaps have a recommendation for a studio?  

[Storygirl]

DD20 was a serious ballet student, and I studied seriously what kind of training she would need when she was on a pre-professional path (she stopped dancing at age 16). So I will share what I know. And I recommend that you visit this forum https://dancers.invisionzone.com/ to  learn from dance professionals and other serious parents what good ballet training looks like.

1) Anyone can open a studio and say they are teaching ballet, and some studios are not good. As in, they teach improper and dangerous technique. You should be concerned if the high school students are regularly teaching the younger classes. Could they sub sometimes, if the regular teacher isn't available? Sure. But the class should have a regular, trained teacher, not a teen, in charge. Feel free to call up your studio and ask about this. You should know.

2) You can also ask if your daughter can move up. But I would expect the answer to be no. A reputable studio would say no. To be frank, if you think your daughter should be three levels higher, your ideas about her abilities are likely not in line with standard ballet training. No school would put a second grader three levels up (with fifth graders???), and you shouldn't want that, as a parent, for the well being of your child. Both for her physical development and training as a dancer, and for her social emotional well being. She should not be with older students.

I recommend asking for a conference with the studio owner and asking them to teach you more about their methods. You can also ask them for an assessment of where your daughter is at this time. Talent can be evident at this young age (it was evident for my DD), BUT it means nothing, really, because the road to good ballet training is long and slow, and no one can say how the kids who seem talented will end up.

3) Standard good ballet training looks like:
  * Before third grade -- pre ballet and movement classes, learning very basic ballet positions and body movement. One hour per week
  * Third - fourth grade -- two 90 minute ballet technique classes per week. Probably half that time is spent working at the barre, and the other half learning movements across the floor. Very basic leaps and turns may be taught. The idea is to PERFECT TECHNIQUE, not to look like a polished dancer yet. Ballet is about the footwork first, and then the body carriage and arm placement, and those will always be the focus, even at the highest levels. Watching ballet class can be boring LOL
 * Fifth - sixth grade -- three 90 minute ballet technique classes per week. No one should go en pointe before having at least a year of three classes per week first, and not before age 11 or 12. Girls should not automatically be put en pointe as a class, but should be invited when they are ready.
* After that, ballet training will increase year by year, until high schoolers are taking ballet technique class four to six times per week. Other dance classes may also be offered to expand their training.

It becomes extremely difficult to do activities other than dance, as the training hours increase.

If your school's schedule does not look like this, or if they are willing to move a young child up through the ranks quickly, they are possibly a less desirable school. Now, there are recreational dance places that don't offer as much ballet, and that is FINE, if you are okay with it. But if you are looking for GOOD ballet technique (which I assume is what you want to supplement your daughter's other training), you are looking for something like the above schedule. There are plenty of ballet schools that teach BAD ballet technique. If you hang out on the forum that I linked above, you can begin to discern whether your school teaches good technique or not.

Good technique develops extremely slowly over a long period of time -- that is what ballet is like, even for the most talented of all dancers. It cannot be rushed, and parents often think their kids are being held back. But really, that's just how ballet is.

I think you will find that if your daughter stays interested in her other activity, that progressing in ballet will be difficult. At some point, she won't be able to fit both things into her schedule and will need to choose.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

I'm curious what her other activity is. You seem to not want to reveal it, and I wonder why.

[Ting Tang]

53 minutes ago, Annie G said:

If her coach suggested it, does coach perhaps have a recommendation for a studio?  

She would ordinarily, except this is the one we drive super far to see, so I’ve tried to keep the supplemental things closer to home.  We live in a rural area, so it’s slim pickings. 

[Storygirl]

It is very normal for teachers not to allow parents to watch class. Then there would be a parent visitation a couple of times per year, when parents could watch.

I also agree that $50 is reasonable for a one hour per week class. That's about $12 per hour. Some studios might be cheaper, but it doesn't seem out of line to me.

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

DD20 was a serious ballet student, and I studied seriously what kind of training she would need when she was on a pre-professional path (she stopped dancing at age 16). So I will share what I know. And I recommend that you visit this forum https://dancers.invisionzone.com/ to  learn from dance professionals and other serious parents what good ballet training looks like.

1) Anyone can open a studio and say they are teaching ballet, and some studios are not good. As in, they teach improper and dangerous technique. You should be concerned if the high school students are regularly teaching the younger classes. Could they sub sometimes, if the regular teacher isn't available? Sure. But the class should have a regular, trained teacher, not a teen, in charge. Feel free to call up your studio and ask about this. You should know.

2) You can also ask if your daughter can move up. But I would expect the answer to be no. A reputable studio would say no. To be frank, if you think your daughter should be three levels higher, your ideas about her abilities are likely not in line with standard ballet training. No school would put a second grader three levels up (with fifth graders???), and you shouldn't want that, as a parent, for the well being of your child. Both for her physical development and training as a dancer, and for her social emotional well being. She should not be with older students.

I recommend asking for a conference with the studio owner and asking them to teach you more about their methods. You can also ask them for an assessment of where your daughter is at this time. Talent can be evident at this young age (it was evident for my DD), BUT it means nothing, really, because the road to good ballet training is long and slow, and no one can say how the kids who seem talented will end up.

3) Standard good ballet training looks like:
  * Before third grade -- pre ballet and movement classes, learning very basic ballet positions and body movement. One hour per week
  * Third - fourth grade -- two 90 minute ballet technique classes per week. Probably half that time is spent working at the barre, and the other half learning movements across the floor. Very basic leaps and turns may be taught. The idea is to PERFECT TECHNIQUE, not to look like a polished dancer yet. Ballet is about the footwork first, and then the body carriage and arm placement, and those will always be the focus, even at the highest levels. Watching ballet class can be boring LOL
 * Fifth - sixth grade -- three 90 minute ballet technique classes per week. No one should go en pointe before having at least a year of three classes per week first, and not before age 11 or 12. Girls should not automatically be put en pointe as a class, but should be invited when they are ready.
* After that, ballet training will increase year by year, until high schoolers are taking ballet technique class four to six times per week. Other dance classes may also be offered to expand their training.

It becomes extremely difficult to do activities other than dance, as the training hours increase.

If your school's schedule does not look like this, or if they are willing to move a young child up through the ranks quickly, they are not a reputable school.

Now, there are recreational dance places that don't offer as much ballet, and that is fine, if you are okay with it. But if you are looking for GOOD ballet technique (which I assume is what you want to supplement your daughter's other training), you are looking for something like the above schedule. There are plenty of ballet schools that teach BAD ballet technique. If you hang out on the forum that I linked above, you can begin to discern whether your school teaches good technique or not.

Good technique develops extremely slowly over a long period of time -- that is what ballet is like, even for the most talented of all dancers. It cannot be rushed, and parents often think their kids are being held back. But really, that's just how ballet is.

I think you will find that if your daughter stays interested in her other activity, that progressing in ballet will be difficult. At some point, she won't be able to fit both things into her schedule and will need to choose.

 

Thank you, this is super helpful! So last year, she had adult teachers. This year, she says it’s always the high school students. I do think I need to discuss with them more about their curriculum. I agree that she shouldn’t really be with students so much older, but I honestly don’t see much of a difference in the videos they share, which concerns me. The next level begins with age 8, and my daughter will be 8 in about 5 weeks. So I thought maybe that could be an option, but I’m not sure. I also do think at some point, she’ll have to decide what to focus on for reasons you mentioned. 

[Ting Tang]

10 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I'm curious what her other activity is. You seem to not want to reveal it, and I wonder why.

I’ll pm you. It’s a very small world. That’s mainly why. 😞

Edited October 20, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Ting Tang]

8 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

It is very normal for teachers not to allow parents to watch class. Then there would be a parent visitation a couple of times per year, when parents could watch.

I also agree that $50 is reasonable for a one hour per week class. That's about $12 per hour. Some studios might be cheaper, but it doesn't seem out of line to me.

I sent you a message. Yes, I don’t even mind that because I enjoy the peaceful time waiting, lol. And the cost isn’t bad, except I do want to make sure it’s proper. I really haven’t researched all this in depth. If anything, maybe my message will prompt a conversation. Maybe they will reassure me. 

[Storygirl]

I wasn't a dancer as a child, so when DD wanted to take ballet, it was a completely unknown world to me! Learning how to navigate the dance world can be tricky. I learned a ton from the Ballet Talk forums. I haven't visited in a number of years, since DD gave up dance, but there was a time when I read everything on there and even went back and read posts from years and years before, because I wanted to educate myself. For a long time, I thought DD would be a professional ballet dancer, and.... there's a whole story, but I will say that it's easy as the parent of a talented kid to become overly invested, because the parents have to invest their own time and money into their child's endeavors. I love-hated DD's ballet journey, because it was so positive for her (until it wasn't), but it was hard on our family life and required me to devote much more of my time to dance, as a non dancer, than I ever would have anticipated.

Our whole family sacrificed, and one of the biggest sacrifices is that DD was away from the rest of the family so much. By the time she was a teenager, she was at the studio six days/ nights a week, and I missed her so when she wasn't with the rest of us.

Anyway, I understand the pull of looking for all of the best options to help a child move forward in an area of talent. It can be rewarding but also really hard.

[Farrar]

Another ballet mom. Seconding all this good advice, but I have to say that I think you're wrong about not wanting a comp studio. I think you probably do want a competition studio, you just don't want to do competitions. Comp studios nearly always offer privates. Comp studios absolutely are happy to push young kids to learn as many tricks as possible. Comp studios are very focused on the performance aspect - both literally preparing for performances and competitions, but also figuratively, they like the showy aspects of dance. Any time you've ever seen a super young dancer who really wows, that kid was almost certainly initially trained at a competition studio because kids who are in pre-pro schools never get trained to do anything fun to watch at a young age. While I don't know your kid's other activity, my guess is that those things would all be important to you.

Less important would be the sort of things that are emphasized on the ABT Vaganova syllabus or a Cecchetti school or any of the other super classical approaches to teaching classical ballet. The schools that use these classical approaches tend to be super slow paced because they are drilling down hard on some elements that to a non-ballet eye are just nothing. They're utterly invisible. If you're not literally training to be a classical dancer, then there's no real point to any of that approach. And most of those schools won't start kids before age 8.

The high school teachers thing is anyone's guess, but I have to say... my own newly graduated kid who is a trainee with a company is perfectly qualified to teach a 7 yo classical ballet. He's not qualified to patiently manage a class of 20+ 7 yos so there's that. It does sound like it's just a poor fit all the way around though.

[Ting Tang]

46 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I wasn't a dancer as a child, so when DD wanted to take ballet, it was a completely unknown world to me! Learning how to navigate the dance world can be tricky. I learned a ton from the Ballet Talk forums. I haven't visited in a number of years, since DD gave up dance, but there was a time when I read everything on there and even went back and read posts from years and years before, because I wanted to educate myself. For a long time, I thought DD would be a professional ballet dancer, and.... there's a whole story, but I will say that it's easy as the parent of a talented kid to become overly invested, because the parents have to invest their own time and money into their child's endeavors. I love-hated DD's ballet journey, because it was so positive for her (until it wasn't), but it was hard on our family life and required me to devote much more of my time to dance, as a non dancer, than I ever would have anticipated.

Our whole family sacrificed, and one of the biggest sacrifices is that DD was away from the rest of the family so much. By the time she was a teenager, she was at the studio six days/ nights a week, and I missed her so when she wasn't with the rest of us.

Anyway, I understand the pull of looking for all of the best options to help a child move forward in an area of talent. It can be rewarding but also really hard.

Well, I just read a few threads on a ballet forum. It’s a bit eye opening. I’m not sure that’s the life for her or for us. I just have been getting the sense that the focus is more on cute routines at this age than the technique/specifics. My daughter is used to learning routines and performing, but at this studio, the kids are still following the teachers at the recitals. Maybe it all changes at some point?  I admit I don’t like the idea of having a child gone that many nights in a studio. I know that’s how it is as they get older as my niece did it. She quit it all and joined the high school dance team—no more studio. 

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Well, I just read a few threads on a ballet forum. It’s a bit eye opening. I’m not sure that’s the life for her or for us. I just have been getting the sense that the focus is more on cute routines at this age than the technique/specifics. My daughter is used to learning routines and performing, but at this studio, the kids are still following the teachers at the recitals. Maybe it all changes at some point?  I admit I don’t like the idea of having a child gone that many nights in a studio. I know that’s how it is as they get older as my niece did it. She quit it all and joined the high school dance team—no more studio. 

This post feels to me like you're not sure what you want. In one breath, you dis the routines a bit by saying they're just learning cute routines and not real technique... but in the next you complain that at this studio the kids don't even learn a routine. 

At my kid's super classical serious studio at that age, the kids were in pre-ballet. They focused on very basic technique all the time and so they did follow the teacher for the "recital" which was really just a little demonstration class with a bit of choreography tossed in at the end. That's not so unusual. A demonstration class instead of a real recital in ballet at this age. It's not because the kids are too lame to learn choreography. It's because they almost never teach any choreography at all in classical ballet at this age. They just work on things like turnout and basic movement.

[Ting Tang]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Another ballet mom. Seconding all this good advice, but I have to say that I think you're wrong about not wanting a comp studio. I think you probably do want a competition studio, you just don't want to do competitions. Comp studios nearly always offer privates. Comp studios absolutely are happy to push young kids to learn as many tricks as possible. Comp studios are very focused on the performance aspect - both literally preparing for performances and competitions, but also figuratively, they like the showy aspects of dance. Any time you've ever seen a super young dancer who really wows, that kid was almost certainly initially trained at a competition studio because kids who are in pre-pro schools never get trained to do anything fun to watch at a young age. While I don't know your kid's other activity, my guess is that those things would all be important to you.

Less important would be the sort of things that are emphasized on the ABT Vaganova syllabus or a Cecchetti school or any of the other super classical approaches to teaching classical ballet. The schools that use these classical approaches tend to be super slow paced because they are drilling down hard on some elements that to a non-ballet eye are just nothing. They're utterly invisible. If you're not literally training to be a classical dancer, then there's no real point to any of that approach. And most of those schools won't start kids before age 8.

The high school teachers thing is anyone's guess, but I have to say... my own newly graduated kid who is a trainee with a company is perfectly qualified to teach a 7 yo classical ballet. He's not qualified to patiently manage a class of 20+ 7 yos so there's that. It does sound like it's just a poor fit all the way around though.

Thank you so much. I’ve asked even the “better but slightly farther” studios about private lessons. The most I’ve found is offerings during the summer only. I still wonder if the group classes might be better. I’m really not wanting to add to our time in the car. And yes, I don’t want to do the competitions, lol. I just want a good hour of dance for right now for her.  I’m hoping her current studio can help us figure this out. I think your son sounds like he has excellent qualifications. I am guessing the girls teaching the class are in the high school dance team. 

[Ting Tang]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This post feels to me like you're not sure what you want. In one breath, you dis the routines a bit by saying they're just learning cute routines and not real technique... but in the next you complain that at this studio the kids don't even learn a routine. 

At my kid's super classical serious studio at that age, the kids were in pre-ballet. They focused on very basic technique all the time and so they did follow the teacher for the "recital" which was really just a little demonstration class with a bit of choreography tossed in at the end. That's not so unusual. A demonstration class instead of a real recital in ballet at this age. It's not because the kids are too lame to learn choreography. It's because they almost never teach any choreography at all in classical ballet at this age. They just work on things like turnout and basic movement.

Well, what I mean by that is that they don’t expect them to have it memorized? Whereas elsewhere with what she does, there is no coaching from the sidelines. Maybe I’m trying to convey that I thought more would be expected of them, but maybe that’s wrong thinking on my end. I probably don’t have a great understanding of how all this works. I just thought she should be working on more ballet moves than she has been. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Clarita]

21 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Less important would be the sort of things that are emphasized on the ABT Vaganova syllabus or a Cecchetti school or any of the other super classical approaches to teaching classical ballet. The schools that use these classical approaches tend to be super slow paced because they are drilling down hard on some elements that to a non-ballet eye are just nothing. They're utterly invisible. If you're not literally training to be a classical dancer, then there's no real point to any of that approach. And most of those schools won't start kids before age 8.

I agree with the slow pacing of the Vaganova syllabus. I did that for a while as an adult. It's all about technique and not very exciting if you are watching. As the dancer though these are the classes that teach you how to listen to your body and have muscle memory for the actual moves. If she's getting the choreography training and performance stuff with her other sport then this might be the perfect fit. So a lot of athletes like football players and stuff if they are learning ballet to get better at their other sport would benefit from these types of classes. 1) It can be just once a week with no competitions and 2) the techniques taught in these classes actually help them with their balance, core muscles, muscle memory, etc. than learning choreography and dances.

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Clarita said:

I agree with the slow pacing of the Vaganova syllabus. I did that for a while as an adult. It's all about technique and not very exciting if you are watching. As the dancer though these are the classes that teach you how to listen to your body and have muscle memory for the actual moves. If she's getting the choreography training and performance stuff with her other sport then this might be the perfect fit. So a lot of athletes like football players and stuff if they are learning ballet to get better at their other sport would benefit from these types of classes. 1) It can be just once a week with no competitions and 2) the techniques taught in these classes actually help them with their balance, core muscles, muscle memory, etc. than learning choreography and dances.

See, I just don’t know enough about all of this! Thank you. I think I just need to talk to them more and find out if there are any solutions before I try again elsewhere.  

[teachermom2834]

Really, for a very long time with ballet it looks like they aren’t doing anything. I don’t fully understand all that but it just doesn’t look like anything unless you know what you are looking at until they are much older and doing really impressive things. 
 

If they really know their routines solid then all they are doing in class is learning their routine. One place my dd went for awhile did a lot of recitals and I felt like all they were ever doing was learning dances. The better place she goes now just does one recital at the end of the year and they only work on the dance for about the last month of class and even then only the last 20 minutes or so of class. The entire rest of the year is not spent on learning recital dances. The dances presented are not perfect but they are learning so much more. Other performances are available with rehearsals entirely outside of class time.

I think if you want your dd pushed on performance quality, flexibility, tricks, in a way you can see a competition studio was better for you and Farrar that explained better than I did. 
 

I am also going to say, even though I know it is never well received from an old mom, that your dd is very young. I’ve BTDT with an 8 yo in travel baseball…but it does seem like you are very intense about activities for such a young child and I know you have been warned about the pitfalls of that. Your child is very young. I know our kids don’t seem that young to us when we are in the moment. A lot of us here go the extra mile for our kids activities, myself included, but your posts continue to seem really really intense. And I’ve been accused of being way too intense myself.
 

Good luck to you. 

[Storygirl]

The more that I'm reading and thinking about what you are saying, I think you probably would benefit from reading about how studying ballet can help athletes in other disciplines. This was mentioned in someone else's post -- that sometimes even football players take ballet.

Because the reason that your daughter's other coaches want her to take ballet is NOT for the performance aspect, but for the foundational technique. She is getting the performance training from her other activity.

I seems you are frustrated, because you want her ballet school to give her opportunities to show off her artistic and performance abilities. That is understandable!

But, remember, that is NOT why her coaches want her to take ballet. Obviously, I am not her coach, so you can discuss this with them to get a clearer understanding. But I would think that the core ballet training at the barre is the essential training that they are wanting her to get. Her coaches don't care about her dance choreography and routines at her dance school; they care that her body is trained to do the choreography and routines that THEY want to teach her, and they think that ballet training will help.

You, as a parent, have a different perspective. For dance, you want to see your daughter having fun and floating across the stage and showing off her talents. This is normal! We do love to see that, as parents.

But I think it may help you to remember that that is not her other activity's coach's purpose in recommending ballet for her. Once you know the WHY of ballet training, I think it will help you know whether your current school is meeting that need or not.

******* I'm making a line here, because I probably should have made this into two separate posts.

Also, a little more mom advice -- keep in mind that your daughter very well may change her mind about her interests and what she wants to pursue. It's entirely possible for her to find that she likes dance more than her other activity. Or tennis, or soccer, or being in plays, or playing guitar..... If this happens, let it happen, and remember that it is her life to enjoy.

My daughter started gymnastics before age 2, then started ballet at age 6 (she wanted to start sooner, but I couldn't make all things happen with four kids -- she is my oldest), and for several years, she did both. It became a problem, because the two studios had classes that conflicted, and eventually she chose dance. I had to require her to choose, because we couldn't logistically do both, any more, and DD didn't like giving up gymnastics. Then DD wanted to be a cheerleader in high school, and that also presented conflicts with dance. She was able to cheer her freshman year, but not her sophomore year, due to scheduling. Then at age 16, she quit dance after an injury and other situations made dance painful (physically and emotionally). All of the decision making about quitting dance or not was as hard on me, as it was on her. I won't go into it, but it's one of the reasons that I recommend that you really try to set in your mind that your daughter's activities are HER journey, and it may not go the way that YOU hope it will. Then DD was a cheerleader for the rest of high school. Then she was a cheerleader in college, but unexpectedly hated it (though she loved high school cheer) and quit. Then she joined the college diving team.

None of that was predictable for her in second grade. In second grade, her dance talent was obvious, and not just to me. In high school, she was told by her preprofessional ballet studio that she had the potential for a career in ballet, if she wanted it. As a mom, I had to grapple with my feelings about her being so gifted (one of her teachers told me she was "a rare talent") but also unhappy. It's not easy, at all, as a parent, to go through these things.

It's not easy, even IF your child stays the course all the way through!

So if your daughter stops loving what she is doing, let her stop. Try to leave room in her schedule to try out other things. This can be hard to impossible, with the kind of schedules that coaches expect young ones to commit to. I remember one year telling her ballet teacher that DD was going to miss a dance rehearsal, because for pete's sake, I was going to let her go trick or treating as a 9 year old, and it was HARD to make that decision, because I knew that either way, I was letting someone's expectations down.

In the moment, all of the commitments seem so high stakes, and we want to provide the best opportunities. Just remember to let your daughter lead the way, and if she loses heart over her main activity, don't hold tightly to YOUR dreams for her. Let her make dreams of her own.

When my DD was going through dance, I would read posts like the one that I'm writing now, and I would think, "yeah, but not my daughter; she will be the one who sticks with it to the end." And I was wrong.

Best wishes.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Storygirl

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Really, for a very long time with ballet it looks like they aren’t doing anything. I don’t fully understand all that but it just doesn’t look like anything unless you know what you are looking at until they are much older and doing really impressive things. 
 

If they really know their routines solid then all they are doing in class is learning their routine. One place my dd went for awhile did a lot of recitals and I felt like all they were ever doing was learning dances. The better place she goes now just does one recital at the end of the year and they only work on the dance for about the last month of class and even then only the last 20 minutes or so of class. The entire rest of the year is not spent on learning recital dances. The dances presented are not perfect but they are learning so much more. Other performances are available with rehearsals entirely outside of class time.

I think if you want your dd pushed on performance quality, flexibility, tricks, in a way you can see a competition studio was better for you and Farrar that explained better than I did. 
 

I am also going to say, even though I know it is never well received from an old mom, that your dd is very young. I’ve BTDT with an 8 yo in travel baseball…but it does seem like you are very intense about activities for such a young child and I know you have been warned about the pitfalls of that. Your child is very young. I know our kids don’t seem that young to us when we are in the moment. A lot of us here go the extra mile for our kids activities, myself included, but your posts continue to seem really really intense. And I’ve been accused of being way too intense myself.
 

Good luck to you. 

Perhaps this is how this studio works; I just really do not know, so I need to ask.  The activity she is in is a bit intense for us, but mainly because it requires travel to the lessons and daily practice with a lot of parental involvement.  It might seem as if it is all she does, but she definitely has other interests, too.  The one saving grace is that she can still do a lot of her practice at home, even though she needs to go to a gym some times.  

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

The more that I'm reading and thinking about what you are saying, I think you probably would benefit from reading about how studying ballet can help athletes in other disciplines. This was mentioned in someone else's post -- that sometimes even football players take ballet.

Because the reason that your daughter's other coaches want her to take ballet is NOT for the performance aspect, but for the foundational technique. She is getting the performance training from her other activity.

I seems you are frustrated, because you want her ballet school to give her opportunities to show off her artistic and performance abilities. That is understandable!

But, remember, that is NOT why her coaches want her to take ballet. Obviously, I am not her coach, so you can discuss this with them to get a clearer understanding. But I would think that the core ballet training at the barre is the essential training that they are wanting her to get. Her coaches don't care about her dance choreography and routines at her dance school; they care that her body is trained to do the choreography and routines that THEY want to teach her, and they think that ballet training will help.

You, as a parent, have a different perspective. For dance, you want to see your daughter having fun and floating across the stage and showing off her talents. This is normal! We do love to see that, as parents.

But I think it may help you to remember that that is not her other activity's coach's purpose in recommending ballet for her. Once you know the WHY of ballet training, I think it will help you know whether your current school is meeting that need or not.

******* I'm making a line here, because I probably should have made this into two separate posts.

Also, a little more mom advice -- keep in mind that your daughter very well may change her mind about her interests and what she wants to pursue. It's entirely possible for her to find that she likes dance more than her other activity. Or tennis, or soccer, or being in plays, or playing guitar..... If this happens, let it happen, and remember that it is her life to enjoy.

My daughter started gymnastics before age 2, then started ballet at age 6 (she wanted to start sooner, but I couldn't make all things happen with four kids -- she is my oldest), and for several years, she did both. It became a problem, because the two studios had classes that conflicted, and eventually she chose dance. I had to require her to choose, because we couldn't logistically do both, any more, and DD didn't like giving up gymnastics. Then DD wanted to be a cheerleader in high school, and that also presented conflicts with dance. She was able to cheer her freshman year, but not her sophomore year, due to scheduling. Then at age 16, she quit dance after an injury and other situations made dance painful (physically and emotionally). All of the decision making about quitting dance or not was as hard on me, as it was on her. I won't go into it, but it's one of the reasons that I recommend that you really try to set in your mind that your daughter's activities are HER journey, and it may not go the way that YOU hope it will. Then DD was a cheerleader for the rest of high school. Then she was a cheerleader in college, but unexpectedly hated it (though she loved high school cheer) and quit. Then she joined the college diving team.

None of that was predictable for her in second grade. In second grade, her dance talent was obvious, and not just to me. In high school, she was told by her preprofessional ballet studio that she had the potential for a career in ballet, if she wanted it. As a mom, I had to grapple with my feelings about her being so gifted (one of her teachers told me she was "a rare talent") but also unhappy. It's not easy, at all, as a parent, to go through these things.

It's not easy, even IF your child stays the course all the way through!

So if your daughter stops loving what she is doing, let her stop. Try to leave room in her schedule to try out other things. This can be hard to impossible, with the kind of schedules that coaches expect young ones to commit to. I remember one year telling her ballet teacher that DD was going to miss a dance rehearsal, because for pete's sake, I was going to let her go trick or treating as a 9 year old, and it was HARD to make that decision, because I knew that either way, I was letting someone's expectations down.

In the moment, all of the commitments seem so high stakes, and we want to provide the best opportunities. Just remember to let your daughter lead the way, and if she loses heart over her main activity, don't hold tightly to YOUR dreams for her. Let her make dreams of her own.

When my DD was going through dance, I would read posts like the one that I'm writing now, and I would think, "yeah, but not my daughter; she will be the one who sticks with it to the end." And I was wrong.

Best wishes.

Thank you very much.  I think I do need to learn a bit more about this.  Most of my knowledge came from my niece's experience with competitive dance, but she did not pursue ballet.  Her coach did say even the worst studio should make the girls stand up straight, lol, but she has asked questions that have made me wonder about things.  

As for the rest, she is one who basically says she likes everything, though we can't have her do everything, lol. But I do hope we can always maintain some life balance with whatever ends up being her main thing.  I do believe nobody should schedule a rehearsal on Halloween! Her studio is closed, I believe, that night, lol.  Right now in her other sport, she is only a soloist, so we get to choose the competitions. She may join a group that only does local contests, which includes her sport and also a pom pom routine. I definitely understand about the expectations of not wanting to let people down, though---we've put off her joining the group that goes to the national contests.  She's been asked, and she would love it, but I flat out told her coach I cannot make that commitment for years and years due to our family life.  She finally said she could join the local group as that is what it was designed for new this year, and then she could even take two years off, if we wanted.  Anyway, thank you so much!

[Farrar]

8 hours ago, Clarita said:

I agree with the slow pacing of the Vaganova syllabus. I did that for a while as an adult. It's all about technique and not very exciting if you are watching. As the dancer though these are the classes that teach you how to listen to your body and have muscle memory for the actual moves. If she's getting the choreography training and performance stuff with her other sport then this might be the perfect fit. So a lot of athletes like football players and stuff if they are learning ballet to get better at their other sport would benefit from these types of classes. 1) It can be just once a week with no competitions and 2) the techniques taught in these classes actually help them with their balance, core muscles, muscle memory, etc. than learning choreography and dances.

Just seconding all this. I guess when I said I thought maybe what you really wanted was actually more of a competition style studio because they would focus on things like learning a routine and doing things that look impressive, I was thinking that was the element that was needed for the other sport. But if the goal of ballet classes is more basic - to improve some of these core skills - then going with a more classical syllabus and studio would make sense. In addition to learning more about ballet education, I think you should ask her coach why they recommend ballet - which goal is more important to her development.

[Kuovonne]

12 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

The dance year started after Labor Day, and so they have basically just been learning a dance for the Christmas recital that they have every other year.  

This jumped out at me. At this age, time spent working on a group recital dance is time not spent learning technique. If she gets a one hour class once a week, and half that time is spent working on a recital piece, that leaves half an hour for technique. If that technique is split between ballet and jazz in the same class, that leaves practically no time to actually build up foundational ballet skills—alignment, posture, balance, timing, strength, memorization, etc. 

 

9 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

but at this studio, the kids are still following the teachers at the recitals.

When combining this statement with the above statement that the dancers are practicing the recital piece months before the recital, I really start to wonder if something is amiss. How can second grade kids practice a dance routine weekly for months and still need to follow along with the teacher for the performance? Is there high turnover in the kids? Poor attendance? Choreography not matched up to the ability level?

At the ballet studios I’ve experienced, it is normal for five year olds to perform their dances without a teacher on stage. These kids have a weekly hour long ballet technique class, plus a weekly hour long rehearsal. 

[Ting Tang]

17 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Just seconding all this. I guess when I said I thought maybe what you really wanted was actually more of a competition style studio because they would focus on things like learning a routine and doing things that look impressive, I was thinking that was the element that was needed for the other sport. But if the goal of ballet classes is more basic - to improve some of these core skills - then going with a more classical syllabus and studio would make sense. In addition to learning more about ballet education, I think you should ask her coach why they recommend ballet - which goal is more important to her development.

Thank you! Yes, thank you for helping me articulate what I should be asking!  

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Kuovonne said:

This jumped out at me. At this age, time spent working on a group recital dance is time not spent learning technique. If she gets a one hour class once a week, and half that time is spent working on a recital piece, that leaves half an hour for technique. If that technique is split between ballet and jazz in the same class, that leaves practically no time to actually build up foundational ballet skills—alignment, posture, balance, timing, strength, memorization, etc. 

 

When combining this statement with the above statement that the dancers are practicing the recital piece months before the recital, I really start to wonder if something is amiss. How can second grade kids practice a dance routine weekly for months and still need to follow along with the teacher for the performance? Is there high turnover in the kids? Poor attendance? Choreography not matched up to the ability level?

At the ballet studios I’ve experienced, it is normal for five year olds to perform their dances without a teacher on stage. These kids have a weekly hour long ballet technique class, plus a weekly hour long rehearsal. 

That was one thought--how much time is being devoted to a cute Jo Jo or Kids Bop style routine vs. learning actual ballet---still with kids not being able to memorize a routine?  My daughter's coach did think it was incorrect not to learn a routine by counting at their ages.  So maybe I know nothing, or maybe things are just a complete mismatch for us?  She has 0 friends in this year's class from last year.  She was able to pick out 3 she knew in photos who are taking the same level on a different day.  I do know by the next level, they no longer offer multiple classes at the same level.  It is one class at level 3 only.  I do appreciate many aspects of this studio, but maybe it is a mismatch for us.  I honestly have no idea what to think.  

And of course today my daughter woke up with a very stuffy nose, so after I have asked them a question, we might have to have her stay home, lol. 

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Kuovonne said:

This jumped out at me. At this age, time spent working on a group recital dance is time not spent learning technique. If she gets a one hour class once a week, and half that time is spent working on a recital piece, that leaves half an hour for technique. If that technique is split between ballet and jazz in the same class, that leaves practically no time to actually build up foundational ballet skills—alignment, posture, balance, timing, strength, memorization, etc.

Oh, yes!! And it's the technique that is important, so important.

[Dmmetler]

I will say this. I’m a piano teacher. We have a recital next month-we do two a year. For a 7 yr old, they probably just got their recital music in the last week or two, and we’re spending maybe 5 minutes on it, usually focusing on improving one skill, while progressing elsewhere. I ask for about the same at home. By the time we actually get on stage, the younger ones will likely have their music memorized just due to repetition. Many of my youngest ones will do a duet with me, a teen student, or another student their age just to have emotional support, and I’m right there (usually just out of visibility so I’m not in every mom’s home video :)), so the kids know I’m there and I can prompt as needed.

 

We also do regular group classes where kids come together and show off pieces they’re working on. These provide performance experience, too, but it also provides a really important skill-making mistakes in front of an audience and recovering. 
 

The fact is, in anything performative, there is always a balance between technique and skills and performance. And teachers have to balance that, because ultimately, most parents don’t want to pay, and most kids don’t want to just do scales, arpeggios, and finger exercises. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dmmetler

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

Oh, yes!! And it's the technique that is important, so important.

 

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I will say this. I’m a piano teacher. We have a recital next month-we do two a year. For a 7 yr old, they probably just got their recital music in the last week or two, and we’re spending maybe 5 minutes on it, usually focusing on improving one skill, while progressing elsewhere. I ask for about the same at home. By the time we actually get on stage, the younger ones will likely have their music memorized just due to repetition. Many of my youngest ones will do a duet with me, a teen student, or another student their age just to have emotional support, and I’m right there (usually just out of visibility so I’m not in every mom’s home video :)), so the kids know I’m there and I can prompt as needed.

 

We also do regular group classes where kids come together and show off pieces they’re working on. These provide performance experience, too, but it also provides a really important skill-making mistakes in front of an audience and recovering. 
 

The fact is, in anything performative, there is always a balance between technique and skills and performance. And teachers have to balance that, because ultimately, most parents don’t want to pay, and most kids don’t want to just do scales, arpeggios, and finger exercises. 

 

 

Yes to both! I’m actually sitting here while one of my mid kids takes his piano lesson. He will have two small recital pieces, but they work on other pieces, too, and theory. I honestly wish her dance studio was as good as his music studio. The teacher seems to know how to balance everything. And I do not question her abilities at all to teach or play. 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

That was one thought--how much time is being devoted to a cute Jo Jo or Kids Bop style routine vs. learning actual ballet---still with kids not being able to memorize a routine?  My daughter's coach did think it was incorrect not to learn a routine by counting at their ages.  So maybe I know nothing, or maybe things are just a complete mismatch for us?   

I am wondering if it is much more jazz instruction that you are seeking that ballet instruction.  I have years of classical ballet training, and still take adult ballet classes with a school affiliated with a professional ballet company, and I have never learned a routine by counting.  Ballet is not about memorizing one, two, three, kick, five, six, seven, jump.  Much more time is spent on basic technique and steps with much of the training about how to combine those different steps.  One thing that was very different in a ballet class than what I saw my friends doing in ice skating or gymnastics or other similar activities is that there is a balance of doing every exercise both on the left side and the right side.  Instead of one routine that is repeated over and over, shorter combinations of steps are given that are done to the left side and then to right side.  The mind and the body is trained and a language is learned so that if a new teacher shows up tomorrow, the student can follow the instructions.  That is what ballet training is leading to, at early ages it is going to look different.  I would expect anything before the age of 8 (in most instances even older) to be primarily dance/movement appreciation, listening to the music, gaining a sense of control over the body, devleoping hand-eye coordination, listening to the teacher, learning discipline, etc. 

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am wondering if it is much more jazz instruction that you are seeking that ballet instruction.  I have years of classical ballet training, and still take adult ballet classes with a school affiliated with a professional ballet company, and I have never learned a routine by counting.  Ballet is not about memorizing one, two, three, kick, five, six, seven, jump.  Much more time is spent on basic technique and steps with much of the training about how to combine those different steps.  One thing that was very different in a ballet class than what I saw my friends doing in ice skating or gymnastics or other similar activities is that there is a balance of doing every exercise both on the left side and the right side.  Instead of one routine that is repeated over and over, shorter combinations of steps are given that are done to the left side and then to right side.  The mind and the body is trained and a language is learned so that if a new teacher shows up tomorrow, the student can follow the instructions.  That is what ballet training is leading to, at early ages it is going to look different.  I would expect anything before the age of 8 (in most instances even older) to be primarily dance/movement appreciation, listening to the music, gaining a sense of control over the body, devleoping hand-eye coordination, listening to the teacher, learning discipline, etc. 

I'm honestly not sure, either, lol.  Her coach made the comment that "ballet graduates them two levels," but you are definitely right about the movement being used differently in other sports.  I just asked her coach in an email to help me figure all this out.  I'm finding a lot of this to be a little bit stressful, as I am sure everyone has sensed.  I'm trying to give her the tools to be successful, but I really wish she could just do her one thing instead of having to be in dance and then take separate lessons to learn a walkover (the dance studio stopped offering tumbling due to Covid and never restarted it).  It's probably that way with many things---you must do many other things to do that one thing, argh.  lol

[catz]

7 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I'm honestly not sure, either, lol.  Her coach made the comment that "ballet graduates them two levels," but you are definitely right about the movement being used differently in other sports.  I just asked her coach in an email to help me figure all this out.  I'm finding a lot of this to be a little bit stressful, as I am sure everyone has sensed.  I'm trying to give her the tools to be successful, but I really wish she could just do her one thing instead of having to be in dance and then take separate lessons to learn a walkover (the dance studio stopped offering tumbling due to Covid and never restarted it).  It's probably that way with many things---you must do many other things to do that one thing, argh.  lol

That's unfortunate!  My daughter did dance for a long time at an inclusive, body positive, affordable studio that was mixed style, with very high quality ballet, that also had tumbling options where they'd focus on that and flexibility for 60-90 minutes.  It was technique and performance based (non-competitive) studio.  And the price per hour would slide down as you added more hours.  

It's weird they wouldn't add tumbling back in.  😞