hi.im.em Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) I’m in a bit of a quandary and would love some help/insight. I am not a mathsy person. My ideal scenario would be to hire a Montessori teacher (who would also loan me the materials) to come to my house and present a new material and work with my dd once a week or so. Then leave the material with us for her to work with at will. I live in a super rural area so that would never happen. My realistic options, therefore, are: 1) Buy the materials and albums myself and DIY it. £315 for a starter pack to get us up to the snake game, or £1,280 for a more complete set to get us to four-digit arithmetic. This option is pretty scary. Expensive, and I will basically have to teach myself to be a Montessori math teacher. It could be a fun challenge, but I plan to have another baby around the time my ds will turn 4. However, it could work out cheaper (and I could get better quality/prettier materials than the options below). I also really like that the materials/games are self-correcting, so my dc could work on them on her own once they’ve been presented. If anyone has done this I would love to hear how it went. 2) Mathessori: £535 - Starts when children can count to 10 and recognize quantity (age 4ish) up to fractions (age 7-8) The quality of materials is pretty high (not as nice as I would buy myself- plastic beads etc). They have everything you need and videos online showing you how to present the materials and in what order. Do you think this would be much more useful than just looking things up online myself or purchasing a Montessori Math album? I really like the fact that it’s authentic Montessori but still somewhat guided. 3) Rightstart Math £420 – approx. price to take us up to fractions People seem to love this. Problems I’ve heard mentioned is that it jumps around too much, children have trouble recognizing that once you get to 10 on the abacus, you can go on to 11, requires playing games which is easy to neglect, and it doesn’t start working with large numbers until later (unlike Montessori). I would probably purchase my own versions of some of the materials (such as the hundred square, wooden number cards rather than paper). Aesthetics are super important to me (slight Waldorf leanings although I'm not a fan of fantasy before 5 so can't really claim it). 4) Miquon £48 for all 6 books I’m the least familiar with this method but would save me A LOT of money. However, I would worry that it doesn’t cover all the concepts (like time and geometry) in a kinaesthetic way. Happy to be corrected though. It also seems even less ‘open and go’ than the others. However, I appreciate that it emphasizes self-exploration which is something that is present in the traditional Montessori materials. A mum I know who is a maths wizz loves it, but I worry that because I’m less mathy I would find it confusing. Nice and aesthetic though 🙂 5) Shiller Math £338 for Kit 1 and fractions, Books only: £210 Montessori-based programme claiming to be open and go. I am skeptical. Similar accusations of hopping around to RightStart. I would also end up buying nicer versions of the manipulatives. Doesn’t seem to leave time for free exploration of the manipulatives and does lay it out nicely for the teacher. I am really hoping to stick with one curriculum until after fractions, at which point we will move to something like Kumon, Singapore or Saxon. I will also use the same method with future kids so the upfront cost is slightly softened by that. Obviously I need to pick one option and lean into it - they are all way too expensive to change my mind on. Any advice gratefully recieved! I have learned so much already just browsing you guys are real pros. Edited May 29, 2022 by hi.im.em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 Of those, I've only used Rightstart. I've literally never heard the criticism that kids can't move from 10 to 11. It hasn't been an issue for my three kids. In any math kids occasionally have trouble moving from one ten to the next, that's a developmental thing and works out at some point. Jumps around too much? It's pretty calculated jumping around. It's not a purely mastery program, and if parents want mastery then it will no doubt bother them. Most kids do occasionally need breaks for the subconscious to chew on the material for a while and are ready to leap forward again later, so I'm not a fan of pure mastery. How large are large numbers? It works addition through the thousands in the second level. It does millions and billions in level E. (D?) So, age 9? It's not super late, and of course you're free to introduce it yourself earlier if you want. Consider looking for materials used to save some money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Those are all pretty expensive, especially for that really young age. I know the idea of teaching math can be intimidating, but there are really a lot of very cost effective and even free ways to teach young ones. You are clearly very drawn to Montessori methods. Is that because you particularly like their scope and sequence, their philosophy, the materials, the emphasis on manipulatives? If you tell us what parts are most important to you, we may have some alternatives or suggestions. Since this is such an investment, I'd start with something extremely simple and cheap, like Kate Snow's Preschool Math at Home, or even free, like MEP. Before investing in something that you are going to be committed to for the long haul, practice teaching your child. Find out what works for you. Do you like using the child's own toys so that they will naturally keep practicing in their free time? Or does your child resent it when you control their toys, so it's best to have dedicated math manipulatives? It maybe your kids quickly jump to doing everything in their heads, so spending any money on manipulatives world be a frustrating waste. I applaud you for looking ahead and preparing, and I assure you that I enjoy doing so as well. I'd urge you to hold off on getting any serious curriculum until first grade, or Kindergarten at the earliest. The math that is helpful for little ones to learn is constantly surrounding them. Kids who are introduced to fractions while maiming ingredients to bake cookies generally have no problem understanding that 1/2 is bigger than 1/3 and is equal to 2/4. Kids counting out raisins to share discover all sorts of principles and relationships between numbers. If you can take this time to discover that with your children, you'll be laying a solid foundation for your children's math future and for your future as their teacher. You may even discover that you are more math-y than you think! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 I really liked Mathessori. I have Kit 2&3. You don't need the super nice Montessori materials. The people who need those are running a Montessori school, because lots of kids are going to use the materials year after year. Your materials only have to last through your kids. To be completely honest if you are short on funds even a paper DIY would work for the normal child, in fact my paper DIY short bead chain beads actually work better for my kids than the actual bead bead chains. I actually now use the Mathessori materials alongside Singapore Primary Math curriculum. I enjoyed the explanation and the videos of Mathessori and the videos definitely help me understand what the lesson is suppose to look like better than the free albums online. The Montessori sequence differs from other math curriculum in when (?) they cover arithmetic concepts. Like they start adding basically at 4 digits and just differentiate between static vs dynamic. Typical math curriculum do < 10 then, > 10 then 2 digits... So there might be some discrepancy and it may be hard to determine that exact point of "after fractions". Also don't feel like you need to "lean into" any math curriculum/philosophy. You need to teach the child(ren) in front of you and "follow the child". You could pick an amazing curriculum that works for 99% of children but not yours or not your second child. The most powerful thing about Montessori is to observe your child in their education journey and guide/follow them. It is not in using the perfect materials or curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 My eldest would only be doing first grade math next year (yes for other boardies he is technically in K next year). So I have not gone through all the math up to fractions yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 Thanks so much for the replies. @Kiara.I This is where I saw the criticisms of RS. However, I went on the comments and some of the concerns were addressed. I think the one that sticks is that if you are looking for authentic Montessori, RS is close but it's not it. However, I have seen that some people (even Montessori teachers themselves) actually prefer it. For me, as a first-time homeschooler possibly starting out our maths journey with a newborn in the picture, it might be just the thing to get us started and give me confidence in teaching. @Xahm I know it seems overkill but I'm one of those people that just needs to have things settled in my mind otherwise I will obsess. I won't buy a curriculum until she's ready for K, I just need to know what the plan is. What draws me to Montessori: As someone who was always baffled by maths and still a bit befuddled by place value, I strongly believe that maths needs to be experienced physically when it's first introduced. I really want my daughter to understand that the number 100 is just the symbol we use for a hundred ones, or ten tens. I want to try and avoid much book-work until 6 or 7 ideally, although will probably have some worksheets available to do for fun (have pegged MEP for that, and Kumon). I also really like the fact that Montessori kids see maths as puzzles, and that many of the materials are self-correcting so can be worked on independently, and solved in many different ways. I like that new concepts are introduced when the child is ready, not when the curriculum says (however I would benefit from a clear scope and sequence). I have no agenda for her in terms of when I need her to move on to the next level - I see maths as a long game. I am hoping to do a non-coercive form of homeschooling in the beginning, so it would be up to her when she wants to 'work on' maths. I basically hope to have some 'school time' in the morning (after some outdoor play and a quick circle time) in which I'm available to help her work on whatever - whether it's music practice, a craft project, a read-aloud, or she can just play if she's really not in the mood. For free playtime, I plan to have the Montessori materials out alongside other open-ended toys like playsilks, dolls house, lego etc. We don't own a tv so that will hopefully make the non-coercive thing more doable (I am a phone addict though so by no means screen-free). So the Montessori materials will be treated reverentially as 'work', but they will be available to work on whenever (is my ideal don't know whether this will work in practice without supervision - might have to put the materials away outside school time). However, I do take your point that perhaps my daughter will be quick to move on from the manipulatives (my husband is mathy so she might take after him rather than me). I read recently that Dr. Montessori only really developed her method for 3-6 year-olds - the rest is an extrapolation on what she would have done with babies, elementary students etc. If all goes well the plan will be to transition to something like Kumon or Singapore once my daughter has mastered the Montessori primary maths sequence (which I think ends somewhere after fractions are introduced, or around RS book 3). @Clarita so awesome to find someone who's used Mathessori. It's the one I'm most drawn to t as it seems to combine authentic Montessori with teacher guidance. How much prep-time would you say you needed for each presentation? Between presentations would you work at the material together or did you ds do it independently? Did you put it away between lessons or leave it accessible? For context, my plan for K-1 is to only do maths and literacy for 'school' (she will attend a forest school playgroup twice a week). So either All About Reading or Montessori letter work, maths, and maybe something like Kumon maze workbooks or Abeka cursive if the interest is there. I may even alternate between math and literacy blocks to coincide with interest/sensitive periods. ie, put the moveable alphabet away for a bit while we focus on math. Interesting that no one seems to use Shiller... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 We have done some Montessori Maths mostly 0-6. I would strongly recommend investing in the Albums before buying the Materials then buying the Materials as you need them. There is a sequence to the way the materials are introduced and not all are suppose to be on the shelves straight away. A lot of materials can be DIY but there are some that you really need to buy like the Beads. I am UK Absorbent Minds has a really wide range of products otherwise Facebook selling pages. Montessori Research and Development are really well respected with clear instructions and ship to the UK and they have recently started making some of their albums available online at a fraction of the cost to ship them. Montessori Research and Development | Montessori RD There is also an Online Montessori school called Guidepost that do online classes in European time zones. They do send some materials out that you DIY and the online teacher guides the child with the materials. In regards to Hopping around in Rightstart and Shiller IMO its mimicking how kids in a Montessori classroom will explore the maths materials it just doesn't work out as well in book format because it's not working to the child's own natural exploration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 A note about Miquon - there are two guide books to go with, the 1st Grade Diary and the Lab Sheet Annotations. They are specifically written for the less mathy of us who want specific ways to present material or have activities to introduce the work. Another option for you is MEP. We did many of the activities in year 1 orally, or with hands on materials, and let him explore quite a bit with the puzzles. Anything he wanted to do more of, I found ways to do it in independent ways. For that, we really only needed base 10 pieces, c-rods, and number cards (I made my own by cutting index cards into 1/3 (units), 2/3(tens), and 3/3 (hundreds). I still use the copymasters to enhance lessons for kids using other methods and let them puzzle their way through. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 2 hours ago, hi.im.em said: How much prep-time would you say you needed for each presentation? Between presentations would you work at the material together or did you ds do it independently? Did you put it away between lessons or leave it accessible? Prep time for me is 10-15min. I allow my children to play with the materials, although when they do it on their own the never use it as intended. I leave it accessible all the time. I started off strict and did things like restricted access and take the materials away when my kids didn't use them "right". Then my kids would never touch the materials. So, now I let them play with the materials as they see fit during their free time. During our "work period" they choose the subjects to work on. I set out the presentation or activities for that subject and show them what to do. Son (K) gets to use the Montessori materials (or other math manipulatives or none) to complete his Singapore math. My daughter (preschool) just does the presentation activity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 @Mirror I'm in the UK too (midlands) those links are so useful. I had already flagged absorbent mind - prices for the diy montessori model are based on the absorbent mind discount starter kits. The links to the manuals look great too, and I suppose if you needed to supplement there are plenty of videos of how to implement on youtube. Do they have advice about when to move on to the next thing? Are you saying that I should buy materials as I go along because I may not need all of them if my child skips ahead? I prefer the idea of having everything on hand (in storage) rather than scrabbling around for materials online but I don't want to buy stuff that will be redundant. Did you guys invest in the brown stair, red number rods and pink tower for preschool? I think they seem like a fun little intro into the montessori method (for both parent and child). @HomeAgainI will definitely check out the Miquon teacher manuals - just for my own maths understanding as much as anything. They are pretty cheap second-hand so a no-brainer. Thanks! @ClaritaThanks that is exactly how I imagine the relationship between toys/manipulatives would pan out. Nothing wrong with using manipulatives to play with imo - just would worry about losing bits. Can you guys imagine doing Montessori math with a newborn? Would that be overambitious? (I know Dr. Montessori was big on concentration so I'm most worried about sleep deprivation and interruptions). I was initially pretty drawn to a Waldorf style delayed academics approach but you have to do *something* with the 4-year-old to keep them happy and stimulated, so I thought it might as well be maths. In Waldorf, they do lots of drawing, storytime and fingerplays which I also love but it's just as time-consuming to prep. I suppose trying to concentrate on maths with a screaming newborn might be a good way to prepare for office life 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdomandtreasures Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 RightStart failure here (it left me in tears almost every day for the few months we used it, after years of wanting to use it!), however, these cards they make are great for teaching place value: https://store.rightstartmath.com/base-10-picture-cards/ and https://store.rightstartmath.com/place-value-cards/ For $1200, the program better teach and grade all the way up to calculus and trigonometry for me, not just basic arithmetic. With a newborn, do you really have the time and wherewithal to learn a completely new way of doing math and teaching it? In 2 years will you have the patience to try using all these manipulatives with a little one who can climb and throw? I'm not saying that to discourage you. It's a question I have had to learn the hard way to ask myself when I'm tempted to buy curriculum. 🙂 MEP is free and has a lot of "exploration", but not 5 zillion manipulatives to keep track of and worry about a baby grabbing and choking on. Old-school programs like Ray's (free online) or Strayer-Upton ($15/book that lasts two grades * 3 books) can be used with some Cuisenaire rods and the cards linked above, or you can supplement with the RightStart games or books like Challenge Math, Penrose the Mathematical Cat, books by Denise Gaskins, or Math Detectives, or courses from Della at "Beauty of Play". You really don't need to spend a mortgage payment to teach elementary math and have fun exploring patterns and such. Oh, almost forgot, regarding Miquon, if you go that route, just keep in mind that you don't just hand your kid the workbook and have them work page-by-page in order. The lab sheets (teacher guide) will have you do a few pages of one, then jump to page 10 in another. The First Grade Diary has an entire school year's worth of ideas for exploration with math. You could even just buy that and use it as a supplement without the workbokks if you really want. One activity is to have the child hold a geometric shape behind his back and be able to figure out what it is (or describe if they don't know words like cylinder or pyramid). Another has you using Cuisenaire rods as money, and you ask for "$15 in 3 rods of the same color", or other combinations listed in the book, like 2 rods and one is worth twice as much as the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 18 hours ago, hi.im.em said: I’m in a bit of a quandary and would love some help/insight. I am not a mathsy person. My ideal scenario would be to hire a Montessori teacher (who would also loan me the materials) to come to my house and present a new material and work with my dd once a week or so. Then leave the material with us for her to work with at will. I live in a super rural area so that would never happen. My realistic options, therefore, are: 1) Buy the materials and albums myself and DIY it. £315 for a starter pack to get us up to the snake game, or £1,280 for a more complete set to get us to four-digit arithmetic. This option is pretty scary. Expensive, and I will basically have to teach myself to be a Montessori math teacher. It could be a fun challenge, but I plan to have another baby around the time my ds will turn 4. However, it could work out cheaper (and I could get better quality/prettier materials than the options below). I also really like that the materials/games are self-correcting, so my dc could work on them on her own once they’ve been presented. If anyone has done this I would love to hear how it went. 2) Mathessori: £535 - Starts when children can count to 10 and recognize quantity (age 4ish) up to fractions (age 7-8) The quality of materials is pretty high (not as nice as I would buy myself- plastic beads etc). They have everything you need and videos online showing you how to present the materials and in what order. Do you think this would be much more useful than just looking things up online myself or purchasing a Montessori Math album? I really like the fact that it’s authentic Montessori but still somewhat guided. 3) Rightstart Math £420 – approx. price to take us up to fractions People seem to love this. Problems I’ve heard mentioned is that it jumps around too much, children have trouble recognizing that once you get to 10 on the abacus, you can go on to 11, requires playing games which is easy to neglect, and it doesn’t start working with large numbers until later (unlike Montessori). I would probably purchase my own versions of some of the materials (such as the hundred square, wooden number cards rather than paper). Aesthetics are super important to me (slight Waldorf leanings although I'm not a fan of fantasy before 5 so can't really claim it). 4) Miquon £48 for all 6 books I’m the least familiar with this method but would save me A LOT of money. However, I would worry that it doesn’t cover all the concepts (like time and geometry) in a kinaesthetic way. Happy to be corrected though. It also seems even less ‘open and go’ than the others. However, I appreciate that it emphasizes self-exploration which is something that is present in the traditional Montessori materials. A mum I know who is a maths wizz loves it, but I worry that because I’m less mathy I would find it confusing. Nice and aesthetic though 🙂 5) Shiller Math £338 for Kit 1 and fractions, Books only: £210 Montessori-based programme claiming to be open and go. I am skeptical. Similar accusations of hopping around to RightStart. I would also end up buying nicer versions of the manipulatives. Doesn’t seem to leave time for free exploration of the manipulatives and does lay it out nicely for the teacher. I am really hoping to stick with one curriculum until after fractions, at which point we will move to something like Kumon, Singapore or Saxon. I will also use the same method with future kids so the upfront cost is slightly softened by that. Obviously I need to pick one option and lean into it - they are all way too expensive to change my mind on. Any advice gratefully recieved! I have learned so much already just browsing you guys are real pros. Here's the thing with Miquon: although it's "self-exploration," *you* still need to sit with your dc during lessons to help her "discover." The teacher book is scripted, and there is an answer key for all pages, so there's that. But you still need to sit there with her. Which isn't a bad thing, but it is something to think about. You don't need a program to teach your dc how to tell time. Children have been learning that for hundreds of years, long before there was such a thing as "programs" or even "curriculum." Buy your dc a watch, and talk about time, such that she has to refer to her watch. Also, be sure to have several analog clocks around the house to refer to. Oh, and ditto with calendars. Children will learn just by natural life habits, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Also, remember that not all children want to learn that way. Having to use manipulatives to figure things out is a terrible chore for some children. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Let me start by saying 2 things: 1. nothing about your plan is bad. I'm suggesting alternatives because you are still a ways from implementing it. If things change between now and then, you may want to have alternatives in mind. 2. I have a slightly negative view of Montessori curriculum. While I've known several smart, capable people who went to Montessori school, a childhood friend when to one from toddler through 8th grade, and they never caught that she has severe dyslexia and dyscalculia. She faked her way through the "works" without gaining any understanding for years upon years. That probably says more about the school than the method, but it means I personally distrust the method. That colors my advice, and so I'm telling you to be fair To me, the best thing about Montessori school for little ones is that it creates a more traditionally home-like rather than school-like setting, creating ways for children to take personal responsibility for their own needs and the needs of the group while engaging with a variety of ages. It seems odd to me when I hear of home educators trying to make their home be like a school that's trying to be like a home. Instead, I'd rather lean into the advantages of being home and working with the kids right in front of me. My kids are currently 9, 8, 5, and 3, so I've had the "teaching with baby in tow" and "teaching while toddler rampages" experience a few times now. What has helped me is using the strengths of that instead of only trying to work around it. Instead of using manipulatives I was worried about a baby putting in his mouth or otherwise destroying, we counted Cheerios, baby toys, or even baby toes. We practiced sharing equally. Older siblings teach younger ones things, which itself is pretty Montessori. We have certain routines we follow, certain chores each one knows to do automatically, which again is pretty Montessori. I guess what I'm suggesting is that, while you still have time before academics need to start, you read Montessori philosophy and other philosophy (which it sounds like you're doing already) and concentrate on making your home the best home for learning you can rather than the best school-like. Then, if life throws you a curve ball and baby number 2 is twins, or child number one hates manipulatives, or any of a number of circumstances comes along, you won't feel bound to plans you made and already purchased expensive supplies for. We get questions here all the time from people who had a great plan and have sunk lots of money into that great plan and then feel stuck when it turns out it wasn't a great plan for their current situation. They aren't stuck; they are legally free to change whenever they want, but they feel horrible stuck because of the amount of money they've already invested. There really are so many cheap and free options that are actually very good. The problem is that such options have an advertising budget of zero, so it's easy to be convinced by slickly produced big-budget productions. You've clearly been doing a lot of good research and are spotting potential flaws, so I think you are on track for making great choices. I just don't want you to feel like a great education needs to be expensive. Anyway, if you, an intelligent, educated woman are staying home and devoting your work to your own children, you are already spending a huge amount of resources on your children. After taking into consideration the $70,000 or so of lost income you are spending on your kids, it's not being cheap to go with the great program that's 30 bucks to implement instead of the great program that's 2,000 bucks to implement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 @wisdomandtreasurescan you remember what it was about rightstart that got to you? I think it is the scriptedness that is putting me off at the moment. It seems inauthentic. I want dd to trust that I know what I’m doing, or at least authentically work on problems together like in miquon. Perhaps montessori in general has this problem as it is all kind of scripted. At the other end of the spectrum (from the scripted programmes) is the living math @Xahm mentioned. Again, it seems super intuitive to do that, but i’d be concerned that it wouldn’t be a ‘complete’ maths program. Also I’d worry that i’d try to teach something way too hard, or botch the explanation and make it more complex than it needs to be, and my dd would 1) think I am and idiot and 2) hate maths. @Xahm great points. I guess I am being sucked into the whole ‘in for a penny in for a pound’ thing. If I’m gonna homeschool it has to be ‘the best’ homeschool 🥴. I also had dreams of a montessori school ages 3-6 for my dd so am perhaps idealising the method. I have started practical life with her and we both love it - sensorial stuff and early puzzles are less of a hit (she’s rather play with a real waterbottle than a twisting toy). On further reflection I’ve realised that expecting my dd to voluntarily get out the montessori math works and use them as intended is totally unrealistic in a home setting. So the ‘i want her to work independently’ thing is off the table. If (most) little kids need manipulatives for maths, they also need supervision. Having done more research, it also seems that many of the montessori bead games and concepts can be replicated using cuisinaire rods and simple number cards. Also the advertising thing is so so true - I am such a sucker for pretty things and fancy curricula (Waldorf curricula hello). It somehow feels more ‘proper’ if you’re spending a lot of money on it and its easy for companies to capitalise on homeschooler insecurity. So i’m getting the vibe that a simple programme (and simple is usually better right?) like MEP would be best. With some miquon rod work and homemade manipulatives like place value cards thrown in. That way I get the benefit of a complete programme but with the option of getting the manipulatives out to reinforce and demonstrate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted May 30, 2022 Author Share Posted May 30, 2022 Also I had my (mathy) dp look at demonstrations of miquon, Montessori and rightstart online and he said they seemed ‘much of a muchness’ in terms of getting a child to grasp maths - they all work in broadly the same way but are dressed up differently. He said go for the one that I think would be easiest to teach, which doesn’t actually help as that’s what I’m trying to figure out. I’d love @Not_a_Numberto chime in. Worksheet life is what I’m trying to avoid by homeschooling, and a deep understanding of numbers is one of the huge huge benefits of teaching at home imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, hi.im.em said: @wisdomandtreasurescan you remember what it was about rightstart that got to you? So i’m getting the vibe that a simple programme (and simple is usually better right?) like MEP would be best. With some miquon rod work and homemade manipulatives like place value cards thrown in. That way I get the benefit of a complete programme but with the option of getting the manipulatives out to reinforce and demonstrate. I think that one thing you'll find is that what you start out with may not be what you end up with. I had one kid start with Saxon, freak out, and did Math U See for the next 7 years. It worked for him, he loved it, he could choose to use blocks or not. He moved to high school math and did wonderfully well. However, the last book he asked for was Saxon Calculus. He was mature enough to appreciate the incremental lessons when he needed help. I had one kid start with Math U See, hate it, and then switched to MEP for 4 levels, then Right Start for another 3, and then redid all of math from the beginning with Gattegno's discovery-based program. All in 6 years. He ate through math like it was potato chips. Anyway, with the youngest kid, when MUS wasn't meeting his needs, I switched to something free so I could figure out how he learned and what to invest in. Right Start was his choice later, but it wasn't good for a perfectionist who about had a conniption fit when asked to circle a fraction of a single bead on the picture of the abacus (most people stop at C, which is about where we started). Gattegno's demo on youtube piqued his interest and was free to use, but after we finished book 1 I bought the set. That's a long way to say that, different kids, different needs. I was a decent math teacher with oldest ds. I am a much more skilled math teacher with youngest ds because he forced me to learn how to be. I don't regret investing in some of the Right Start materials because they're useful and get used. Same with my MUS materials. I don't regret them - I follow Mortensen facebook pages that give me ideas on block presentations - but they are not as satisfying as the wooden cuisenaire rods from Gattegno math. They helped me learn how to teach. I"d advise anyone to start with free or cheap, though, and build up slowly. That way you don't feel like you wasted money and panic about how to salvage the year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdomandtreasures Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, hi.im.em said: @wisdomandtreasurescan you remember what it was about rightstart that got to you? For one, the descriptions in the guide were confusing to me (but I'm someone who needs to sort of act out instructions. Just reading them goes over my head, even with simple games--when my kids play games I have to watch several rounds first). Reading and going through the lesson myself would take about 30-40 minutes, and that was just to prepare to do it with my son! I would have to read the lesson several times, and then trying to explain it to my then-7-year-old would leave him confused. Something got lost in translation. 😛 Too many manipulatives in a small house with 5 kids--3 younger than the child who was using it, the youngest at the time was 18 months--made it hard. The only way I even had a chance to try to use it was during the baby's nap, but I'd have to go into a room and lock the door and hope no one woke up the baby or interrupt us for at least half an hour (often a lesson would take closer to an hour), so there was that added stress of trying telepathically keep other kids quiet, keep one on track with math, and then see that he actually understood what I was saying. A lot of lessons were vague and I'd have to wait for my math-y husband to be available to ask for help, so there were a few times where math just did not get done that day because I needed help just understanding the teacher's guide, or the baby wouldn't sleep or got woken by siblings within 10 minutes. The TG would also explain something one way, have you practice it for only about two days, then spend a week or two doing other types of math problems. Then that same concept that was done for two days? Let's go back to that, but describe a whole new way of doing it that uses more steps, is backwards from everything Mom has ever been taught about math, and results in two different answers that can get all muddled in the kid's brain. Two-digit addition is where this happened. They would turn 25 +54 into 25+50 =75 (first answer), then 75+4 =79 (final answer. See, two answers for this process!). I mentioned all this in another post about RS. I know a lot of people like it but I think they're people that take to math easily and can go about implementing it without having to rely on the planets to align perfectly every day. I do think some of the games are nice, though. You can buy the game set by itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 @Xahmsaid it perfectly. A lot of what Maria Montessori was going for is to replicate a bit of home in the school environment. Also you have to remember she was designing her things around having a group of children in a school environment. She was trying to educate the children whose parents had to work instead of being able to stay home with their kids. 8 hours ago, hi.im.em said: @ClaritaThanks that is exactly how I imagine the relationship between toys/manipulatives would pan out. Nothing wrong with using manipulatives to play with imo - just would worry about losing bits. I lose and find golden beads all the time. The unit beads are a choking hazard so I kept them out of reach until my youngest was about 2 almost 3. As for brown stair, pink tower, and the large red and blue rod. I never got them and I'm glad I didn't (although the internet would say otherwise). There is plenty of heavy things around my house for kids to stack and organize from smallest to largest. There is a small red and blue rod set they sell (it is a Montessori thing) I guess it's technically for teaching adding and subtracting some time after the giant set. Get that one to do the 1 - 10 sequencing if you want to. My oldest never had any interest, he just orally counted things and went straight for let's add, subtract, multiply and divide mom. My second does like to do the sequencing work and matching it to the numbers (at newly minted 4 this is pretty easy for her). Don't buy all the Montessori things all at once because you don't know how your kids are going to take to it. They may completely breeze through some concepts without ever even touching the Montessori material. Other things it's short lived even within Montessori sequence that a paper replica is plenty good (example the teen and tens board). 54 minutes ago, hi.im.em said: Worksheet life is what I’m trying to avoid by homeschooling, and a deep understanding of numbers is one of the huge huge benefits of teaching at home imo. My eldest sometimes prefer the worksheets because he can quickly and easily just "prove" to me he knows how to do something and he can move on to something new. Some of the Montessori presentations take a long time to do even if you completely understand the concept. That is why we didn't continue with the Montessori sequence and went into the Singapore Earlybird Kindergarten books instead. Then he got to choose whether to do the hands-on stuff or just have me give him the "worksheet". If you decide you want to give Montessori a try I would suggest just getting Mathessori Kit 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bean Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Have you looked into MEP math? It’s free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrymum Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 I love RightStart here;) Yes some lessons are long like an hour for at least some kids especially the later levels. I am positive that some of that is diddling here...we're working on that and Math Mammoth was no better. I thought RightStart was too teacher intensive in 2021 so we geared up to switch into Math Mammoth(5th) and Kate Snows Math with Confidence(K and pilot test 3). We did them for up to 1/2 the year. Math mammoth lasted the longest. By mid January all 3 children were back in RightStart. It is so easy for me to teach and makes so much sense to me and oldest and youngest especially thrive with it. Level D child switched seamlessly. We are a bit behind now in level A and F, but by the end of next year these 2 should be caught back up. (Both switches I filled in and switched carefully and these 3 programs are simular in many ways). My rising 6th grader never wants to switch again he even knows G has alot of geometrical drawang which he dislikes. He says he learns well with RightStart it makes sense to him. I think that you as the teacher really have to be comfortable with the math curriculum. Read as many samples as you can. What looks fun to teach and understandable to you? You can modify it for your kids. We do not love the card games very much. For more practice I have several montessori materials (100 board, multiplication bead board, Pythagoras board, teens and ten boards, red and blue sticks (the name currently escapes me;)), 10 sticks game with my plastic base 10 blocks, flash cards, and strayer upton texts (lots of great drill and story problems). RightStart is not Montessori, but it works better here. We live in the country with lots to do and my kids basically never get out the Montessori materials themselves. RightStarts discrete lessons work well. Then, I use the Montessori stuff in place of RightStart manipulatives and in some lessons as practice in others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 57 minutes ago, countrymum said: I think that you as the teacher really have to be comfortable with the math curriculum. Read as many samples as you can. What looks fun to teach and understandable to you? You can modify it for the kids. Yes this. They all intimidate me for different reasons. Montessori because I have to set our pace and decide when a new topic should be introduced, also because the method is so reliant on good, clear presentations of the materials. And the child should ideally choose to practice working on the material (although i don’t think this works in homeschool - my plan would be to have a dedicated ‘school time’ where they can either work on maths or literacy and I would supervise). Miquon because for it to work well it seems to require an intuitive understanding of numbers on the part of the teacher. I would love to hear from someone who is familiar with both Montessori and miquon - it’s attractive because it seems to incorporate montessori-style explanations/discoveries with more minimalist materials. Rightstart because of the amount of different material covered in each lesson - i am a ‘one concept one lesson’ kind of person, and the amount of fiddly stuff. Also I think I don’t really ‘get’ the abacus (the golden beads make more sense to me as the relationship between the quantity and the number is so direct). I think I’m gonna pick pure montessori (only purchasing the beads and place value cards) and take it from there. Its could to know that the manipulatives could be used easily with rightstart if i needed more structure/motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 57 minutes ago, hi.im.em said: I think I’m gonna pick pure montessori (only purchasing the beads and place value cards) and take it from there. Its could to know that the manipulatives could be used easily with rightstart if i needed more structure/motivation. I think that would be a great place to start. the beads and place value cards are really useful in a lot of other math curriculums as well. Since I guess you aren't going with Mathessori. I would suggest just printing out the place value cards on nice cardstock instead of getting the wooden ones. There are a lot of free pdf of the place value cards online. Low cost and takes up less space. To help with presentation make sure you watch a video of the presentation of the material vs. just reading. The presentations are actually really easy; it's just when it's written in words it gets confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 Thanks Clarita - I’ve found this lady to be really good and watching her demo’s has reassured me that it’s not overcomplicated. I might still go with Mathessori though if the price of the materials works out similar. I bet the kids get really used to the rhythm of the three part lesson, it makes ‘teaching’ very simple (at least in theory). I’m actually kind of excited about teaching maths now I’m glad I did this deep dive 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 1 minute ago, hi.im.em said: I bet the kids get really used to the rhythm of the three part lesson, it makes ‘teaching’ very simple (at least in theory). I’m actually kind of excited about teaching maths now I’m glad I did this deep dive 🙂 I don't know about the kids but I actually kind of apply the three part lesson thing to everything, even our now more textbook-y route. I like having that rhythm as the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolate-chip chooky Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Hi folks 🌻 Just popping in to say that I am a trained 0-3 and 3-6 Montessori teacher, and I'm also involved in Montessori teacher training for 0-3 and 3-6. I'm happy for you all to bounce any ideas off me if you think that could help. I've had two of my children go through Montessori from age 3 to age 12. I homeschooled my third. I don't use this part of the forum often, because my own children are past K-8, so please tag me if you'd like me to pop in. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 On 5/30/2022 at 6:08 PM, hi.im.em said: Also I had my (mathy) dp look at demonstrations of miquon, Montessori and rightstart online and he said they seemed ‘much of a muchness’ in terms of getting a child to grasp maths - they all work in broadly the same way but are dressed up differently. He said go for the one that I think would be easiest to teach, which doesn’t actually help as that’s what I’m trying to figure out. I’d love @Not_a_Numberto chime in. Worksheet life is what I’m trying to avoid by homeschooling, and a deep understanding of numbers is one of the huge huge benefits of teaching at home imo. I'd love to chime in, but you probably know I don't have personal experience with the programs 🙂 . Is there anything specific I can help out with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 (edited) It looks like you have lots of good input already. I find a lot of Montessori stuff inefficient in terms of the cost/effort required to set up for a couple of kids. I do like Maria’s book for getting some ideas on education but most modern resources seem geared toward a classroom environment and ticking ed department type boxes. Id just use a traditional kind of math curriculum and then make the activities Montessori style yourself by letting the kids play/experiment till they’re done with the topic. I like Singapore although it did give us some frustrations as well. I could never figure out Miquon and I’m somewhat mathy. (Not uni mathy but I did all the high school math I could and got As mathy). It didn’t have enough structure for my lack of executive function skills to work out. Also your budget might differ but I’d try to limit spend on curriculum a bit now because high school gets sooo much more expensive! If your budget is pretty unlimited that might not matter but if it’s tight putting away something for later is good. Primary curriculum is negotiable - high school not so much. Edited June 3, 2022 by Ausmumof3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Also, I did some of the free stuff from Shiller Math and didn’t find it that great tbh. I can’t say exactly what but we just didn’t like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 3, 2022 Author Share Posted June 3, 2022 Thanks for all the info everyone. @chocolate-chip chooky I have spoken to another montessori teacher who said that she wouldn’t try to implement the primary maths sequence at home as you guys go through such rigorous training that there are nuances that I would miss and it would just be too much work to get myself to that level of expertise. (I’m only really interested in maths - feel confident that I can teach reading). Do you second that? The videos of presentations make the process look very scripted/simple but of course that’s without a real, wiggly child in front of you. My second question is do you think the presentations can be given online via video link? I would probably do a group class initially and then a weekly 1:1 session when things get more complicated. https://www.worldmontessoriacademy.com/math @Ausmumof3 Thanks for the heads up about high school curricula. Regarding front loading my investments into the early years - i have a few thoughts. Maths will be my main big outlay. I am planning to actively only teach maths and literacy before around 7, and for literacy I’m going to do diy and 100 easy lessons, so super cheap, and library books, and a nice handwriting program. Later for social studies we will do wtm and more library books. I also think that if you have a strong foundation in something like maths you can throw almost any curriculum at them later and they will survive (this is important as they may be back in school by highschool). Therefore, shelling out for my children to go through the montessori primary series is worth it to me. Like I said, I would pay for a private tutor if i could persuade one to come out to the middle of nowhere where i live. Maths is the one subject that I think it’s worth it to outsource or spend money on (as a non mathy person). @Not_a_Number I’m sure you get this all the time, so sorry if this is a repeat. From what I read on your blog you have added some extra micro steps between traditionally taught concepts (such as counting on as a micro step within learning to add). It seems you find the ‘established’ programmes lacking in that they neglect to explicitly teach these small steps, but is there one programme in particular that’s closer to the ideal? Do you second my husband’s conclusion that they are ‘much of a muchness’? (He just watched some youtube examples of lessons). I have ruled out schiller - shipping cost to the uk makes it even more expensive. Same with right start but I still think it might be a good alternative to pure montessori if I can’t pull that off or my dd doesn’t like it. Miquon is still fascinating to me - I find the rods very aesthetic and ‘fun’ looking. oh, another question @chocolate-chip chooky. It seems to me that most of the bead activities could be adapted to use the c rods instead? If you got some 100 squares and 1000 cubes to supplement? Could be entirely wrong about that. Does anyone with familiarity with Miquon know how the transition from concrete to abstract is handled? I like the way the montessori system gradually gets more and more abstract. Is that the case with miquon? My husband said it could be difficult for kids to transition away from a reliance on the rods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 I can contest to it is not hard to transition from concrete to abstract with Miquon. I did Miquon with two of mine. My youngest just graduated college as a math major. She had no problem with it at all. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 With my oldest (who is an electrical engineering major now), we started with Miquon when he was 3 and switched to Singapore math when he finished Miquon purple around age 7-8. I did different things with my middle kids, and with my last child I started Montessori style and then switched to Singapore. Different kids, different needs, etc. A few thoughts, sitting from where I am now looking back. When my oldest was 3, he was very ready to do math but I had a toddler and was pregnant. It was a very busy time, and a lot of people told me that I should just teach him to count and work on math as part of natural life. I knew, intuitively, he was ready for more, but I was also a very new homeschooler. I read a bunch of philosophies on teaching and I think I got ahead of myself and didn't know it. Teaching is really about skill development, and various methodologies are different ways of achieving teaching those skills. I got ahead of myself because I really didn't understand those skills. I could tell you *what* should be taught, but I didn't understand *why* or how those things built upon themselves. Really, much of the early math is about developing subitizing, counting, and place value skills. Those are all interrelated....much like how adding and subtracting are inverse relationships, and same with multiplying and dividing. Montessori, herself, viewed the preschool years as a time of "normalization" with the development of sensory abilities and social skills. She really didn't believe in the introduction of academic work until age 6, when children entered the secondary phase of development. Her work focused on children with "defects" (her word, not mine) and she sought to rehabilitate them. What has become "Montessori math" for the early years---her sensory work and organization work with spindles, number rods, counters, golden beads, etc.--springs from that. I think there are good things that come from being hands on and doing tactile work but once you realize that many of the other programs do much the same thing---cuisenaire rods in place of number rods, counters in ten square cards, etc.----and that those programs do some of that more efficiently and for WAY less money & requiring less storage space---it makes it easier to make curricula choices. Comparing Miquon.....Miquon is hands on, uses cuisenaire rods, and I think is a good problem for kids who naturally struggle with verbal explanations of math. The doing of the thing is the learning of the concept. The Lab Sheet Annotations are important, and for the pencil phobic kid, it can require a bit of support. Honestly, I think Miquon pairs nicely with Singapore primary math series. I would actually recommend you do both at the same time. I am not naturally a mathy person---I am actually probably naturally closer to the math disability side. I learned the material a year ahead of my child in order to teach it well. I watched a lot of YouTube videos and as I developed my own skills, it became so much easier to teach my kids---especially by the 5th time around. 😂 Hopefully this isn't clear as mud, but basically: 1. Don't stretch your budget to buy things with a bazillion pieces you have to track and manage when you have younger kids around. Cuisenaire rods, a set of dice, a set of counters, a judy clock and some play money will do the trick up. 2. Don't mistake doing the curricula for teaching the skill. Understand what you're after, and you'll figure that out by learning before you teach and reading a lot about learning to teach math. 3. Take advantage of all of the free resources on the internet. I began before dial-up internet was a thing common in homes....the number of videos out there now is amazing. Education Unboxed (free videos on Youtube on cuisenaire rods), Gattegno--much of whose work you can access for free on issue, Hand2Mind (who owns cuisenaire rod rights in the US)all have ideas for cuisenaire rod work as well. 4. Seriously consider doing Singapore Primary Math alongside Miquon, or MEP. I did MEP with kid #4. Good times. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said: 4. Seriously consider doing Singapore Primary Math alongside Miquon, or MEP. I did MEP with kid #4. Good times. Interesting. Why would you suggest that? Asking because Singapore Primary Math is/seems complete to me so what is the benefit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolate-chip chooky Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 3 hours ago, hi.im.em said: Thanks for all the info everyone. @chocolate-chip chooky I have spoken to another montessori teacher who said that she wouldn’t try to implement the primary maths sequence at home as you guys go through such rigorous training that there are nuances that I would miss and it would just be too much work to get myself to that level of expertise. (I’m only really interested in maths - feel confident that I can teach reading). Do you second that? The videos of presentations make the process look very scripted/simple but of course that’s without a real, wiggly child in front of you. My second question is do you think the presentations can be given online via video link? I would probably do a group class initially and then a weekly 1:1 session when things get more complicated. https://www.worldmontessoriacademy.com/math oh, another question @chocolate-chip chooky. It seems to me that most of the bead activities could be adapted to use the c rods instead? If you got some 100 squares and 1000 cubes to supplement? Could be entirely wrong about that. Hmmm. Interesting questions. Sure, there are nuances, and yes, we do a lot of training. But I don't agree that that means no one else should have a crack at it. There's a huge spectrum that falls under the overall flavour of Montessori. I think that it really depends on what your goals are. Obviously, if you want the full genuine Montessori experience, you'd need a fully equipped Montessori classroom with a well-trained and experienced teacher. And honestly, even if you have this, it doesn't automatically translate into Montessori perfection. There are a lot of factors involved, including the culture of the school, the type of training, the level of normalisation of the current cohort of children, government regulations etc. So, I'd suggest that you clearly identify your own goals. Lessons are not that hard to learn if you really want to learn them, so please don't be put off. The key is to know what the main objectives of the materials are, so that you know why you are giving the lesson and why that particular material is being used. As an anecdote, my three children experienced Montessori maths very differently. My eldest (Montessori from age 3-12): not mathy at all. Montessori materials were good for her, as they are structured so well from concrete to abstract. My middle (Montessori from age 4 - 13): textbook Montessori child. She was the student who did the bead chains over and over, and absorbed her times tables from them. She went on to study maths at university. My youngest (Montessori from infant - age 4): concrete materials absolutely frustrated her, because it was too slow. She is my radically accelerated child, who didn't need the concrete, and it actually bogged her down. I pulled her out at age 4 to homeschool her so that she could work at her own pace. (I get the irony here. A BIG part of Montessori philosophy is working at your own pace. But this child is quite an outlier.) For most students, it's the actual repeated handling of the materials that is key and the control of error. The indirect preparation that comes from sensorial materials should not be discounted either. I'm not at all familiar with online lessons. Do you mean that your child never actually handles the materials? They just watch someone else do it? And beads - do you mean golden beads or bead chains? Yes, golden beads can be substituted for other maths materials. The idea is that the hierarchies and the relationships between them are clear. Bead chains though are about linear representations of numbers, and about skip-counting via multiples (leading into times tables). These chains also provide a really great concrete experience of squaring, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 3 hours ago, Clarita said: Interesting. Why would you suggest that? Asking because Singapore Primary Math is/seems complete to me so what is the benefit? The combination offers support to children who don't memorize their math facts easily. It also offers a concrete visualization in comparing numbers. If you are using Singapore Primary Math with the Home Instructor's Guide, you have additional work built in. Likewise, if you were learning in a Singaporean classroom, much of the instruction and drill work would happen outside of the workbooks. But, many parents pop open Singapore Primary math with kids who may be average to slow in learning facts, get frustrated, and jump ship without realizing what the fundamental problem is. If you have naturally mathy kids (half of mine are) this may not be an issue. It wasn't with my oldest. He had a strong internal sense of numbers. He zipped through Miquon, then zipped through Singapore. If you have an average to slow kid, it's a happy blend that creates something like Math-U-See where you have both the hands on work and the paperwork, but you aren't tied to the awfulness of working to mastery in only one operation like the MUS series is in elementary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 27 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said: The combination offers support to children who don't memorize their math facts easily. It also offers a concrete visualization in comparing numbers. If you are using Singapore Primary Math with the Home Instructor's Guide, you have additional work built in. Ahh I see. I can see that Singapore math doesn't provide enough workbook practice and it is not obvious unless you read the instructors guide to supplement the workbook problems with other activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 4, 2022 Author Share Posted June 4, 2022 9 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said: Teaching is really about skill development, and various methodologies are different ways of achieving teaching those skills. I got ahead of myself because I really didn't understand those skills. I could tell you *what* should be taught, but I didn't understand *why* or how those things built upon themselves. Really, much of the early math is about developing subitizing, counting, and place value skills. Those are all interrelated....much like how adding and subtracting are inverse relationships, and same with multiplying and dividing. This is a good reminder - thank you - it is part of the reason why I would like to outsource maths. It seems like maybe 3 kids in I might get the hang of it but I'm nervous about 'trying out' my maths teaching skills on dd. 10 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said: With my oldest (who is an electrical engineering major now), we started with Miquon when he was 3 and switched to Singapore math when he finished Miquon purple around age 7-8. I did different things with my middle kids, and with my last child I started Montessori style and then switched to Singapore. Different kids, different needs, etc. Are you able to share your reasons for not doing Miquon with your middles? I'm getting the impression from various comments that Miquon is amazing for young, mathy children who benefit from the manipulatives initially but then quickly start to 'get it' in the abstract, and that Montessori is better for children for whom maths is less intuitive and need to linger longer over the manipulatives. Is that right? 7 On the other hand, it seems like advanced kids can end up being really absorbed in the materials and doing maths at a way higher level than they would if they were working in the abstract (thinking about @chocolate-chip chooky's middle child here) 9 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said: I think there are good things that come from being hands on and doing tactile work but once you realize that many of the other programs do much the same thing---cuisenaire rods in place of number rods, counters in ten square cards, etc.----and that those programs do some of that more efficiently and for WAY less money & requiring less storage space---it makes it easier to make curricula choices. This is what I suspected. If I can get the same results with cuisenaire rods as I can with the Montessori materials then it's a no-brainer space/money wise. The only thing is is that there seems to be a lot more support out there for Montessori-style maths than Cuisenaire rod maths. Like if I was struggling or had a baby or something I could sign dd up for an online class for a bit and then switch back whereas with miquon she would be pretty dependent on me. 9 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said: I am not naturally a mathy person---I am actually probably naturally closer to the math disability side. I learned the material a year ahead of my child in order to teach it well. I watched a lot of YouTube videos and as I developed my own skills, it became so much easier to teach my kids---especially by the 5th time around. 😂 Yep me too - I actually aced maths exams at school but it was because I was able to memorise all the facts. In real life my maths is abysmal and I have no intuitive understanding of numbers. I am hoping for a big family too though, so maybe there is an ROI on teaching myself to teach maths rather than outsourcing. 8 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said: As an anecdote, my three children experienced Montessori maths very differently. My eldest (Montessori from age 3-12): not mathy at all. Montessori materials were good for her, as they are structured so well from concrete to abstract. My middle (Montessori from age 4 - 13): textbook Montessori child. She was the student who did the bead chains over and over, and absorbed her times tables from them. She went on to study maths at university. My youngest (Montessori from infant - age 4): concrete materials absolutely frustrated her, because it was too slow. She is my radically accelerated child, who didn't need the concrete, and it actually bogged her down. I pulled her out at age 4 to homeschool her so that she could work at her own pace. (I get the irony here. A BIG part of Montessori philosophy is working at your own pace. But this child is quite an outlier.) Awesome examples thank you. 8 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said: I'm not at all familiar with online lessons. Do you mean that your child never actually handles the materials? They just watch someone else do it? And beads - do you mean golden beads or bead chains? Yes, golden beads can be substituted for other maths materials. The idea is that the hierarchies and the relationships between them are clear. Bead chains though are about linear representations of numbers, and about skip-counting via multiples (leading into times tables). These chains also provide a really great concrete experience of squaring, for example. So the idea with the online lessons is that you either get sent printable versions of the materials or acquire them yourself. The teacher will do the presentation to the child with you there (so you learn it too) - with the child sitting in front of the same materials at home. Then the child will practice working with the materials with the teacher there on video link to make sure they 'get' it and are doing it correctly. Then the child is expected to practice with the work between lessons. The benefit would be I would learn alongside dd, and we would have someone professionally trained to assess whether mastery of the material had been achieved and whether it's time to move on to the next material. 8 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said: For most students, it's the actual repeated handling of the materials that is key and the control of error. The indirect preparation that comes from sensorial materials should not be discounted either. Bead chains though are about linear representations of numbers, and about skip-counting via multiples (leading into times tables). These chains also provide a really great concrete experience of squaring, for example. What I love about Montessori (and keep coming back to) is that it's 'tried and true'. The built-in control of error, and the clarity over which material is used for which purpose is super appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 13 hours ago, hi.im.em said: Does anyone with familiarity with Miquon know how the transition from concrete to abstract is handled? I like the way the montessori system gradually gets more and more abstract. Is that the case with miquon? My husband said it could be difficult for kids to transition away from a reliance on the rods. Miquon does transition all through the six books, so by the end of the last book the number sense is very intuitive. By the end of the 3rd book my Miquon users were able to do the work abstractly and check with the blocks. I had two go through the fifth book and move to Math Mammoth for concept practice and I had one go through the sixth book and move to MEP. All of them were able to mentally manipulate numbers with 2-3 operations involved. My own 12yo kid used Gattegno math, written by the guy who worked with G. Cuisenaire to bring the rods to the rest of the world outside of Belgium. The two wrote math programs together. I say that because you can see the transition if you look up Mathematics At Your Fingertips on Youtube. It's a 3-part series that shows significant growth. The c-rods are specifically designed to assist in moving to abstract maths: stackable for factoring, colored into families, and gives a mental picture of what should be going on. Miquon is like Gattegno-light, with more written work and covering the concepts of the first 1.5 books. Ds's own mental math is phenomenal, as is his work with abstract concepts. He's finishing Algebra 1 this month with a more traditional program and his only has been learning to write the math instead of doing most of the steps in his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Actually, if you are hoping for a large family, I would steer you away from Montessori. I didn’t use Montessori with them because once you have more than two students, schooling becomes a LOT of work. You are teaching multiple levels of math, English, etc. all simultaneously while trying to run a household. Choosing more efficient materials becomes important. My 2nd child had cancer before she died. We did Singapore math only because it was highly portable and we were homeschooling out of a backpack from hospitals. Kid 3 has significant learning issues—we used materials for dyscalculia (Ronit Bird) and then something with a tight spiral of review, and so we chose CLE. Kid3 needs direct explicit instruction, not a discovery style. Kid 4 wanted her “own” math. We started her in MEP and then switched her to Singapore (because it was on hand) and realized she needed more review so switched her again to CLE. There was a 4 year age gap to kid 5 so I had time and energy again by the time we started with her. Miquon is dead simple to teach, if that’s a worry you have… 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bean Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Try Math With Confidence for a hands-on yet more doable and affordable long term solution. Kate Snow's website is a wealth of information and help regardless. https://welltrainedmind.com/c/subject/math/ https://kateshomeschoolmath.com/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) In the interest of this thread being useful to others – here are my observations about Miquon V Montessori For Miquon I’ve been reading the labsheet annotations and messing around with C-rods, for Montessori looking at montessoriinfo.com for scope and sequence and youtube videos. I will admit that I don’t quite understand the scope and sequence of Montessori maths. Maybe it’s because concepts are introduced at the director’s discretion rather than following a linear plan. For instance, the four operations seem to be introduced sequentially, but concurrently with place value (using the golden beads and the bank game). However, it’s not clear at which point you introduce regrouping and move from static operations to dynamic ones? However, children will be starting to work with the stamp game, and then bead boars by age 6, which means they will be doing all four dynamic operations with big numbers (regrouping) by age 6. 1. In Miquon, regrouping is introduced in 2nd grade level three (blue book), place value is level 4 (green)and the annotations say that you shouldn’t show your child how to regroup, but let them come up with it as a solution themselves. This also ensures that they spend longer doing addition and subtraction in their head. 2. Fractions are introduced in level one of Miquon whereas in Montessori they are right at the end of the primary sequence. 3. Skip counting and teens are introduced in Miquon much earlier than Montessori. In Montessori, linear counting past 10 (the teens) aren’t introduced until the four operations with the golden beads are ‘mastered’, but does that mean they are doing long division with remainder before they know what 14 is? Or is it just once static operations with small numbers are introduced? Or is it concurrent and you just introduce teens and skip counting with the coloured beads whenever? 4. C-rods can easily replace any of the coloured bead activites. The only difference is that you can’t count the rods as easily (they learn to recognise quantity anyway). You could play the snake game with the C rods, for example. 5. You can replicate Montessori golden beads by making orange base 10 blocks – 100 squares and 1000 cubes. So, as others on another thread have said, Miquon is aiming for a ‘conceptual’ understanding of maths first rather than Montessori’s ‘procedural’ first. I have also read that for a kid who isn’t likely to want to study pure math, a procedural understanding kind of ‘gets it done’: you learn a way of solving each type of problem and then apply it when needed – drilling is what gets this to be a fast process and your kid will ace their maths exams. I have also been looking into Kumon (for extra drill). They don’t really teach Maths at all, they just give a couple of examples of how to do a problem and then drill drill drill until it’s basically muscle memory. I’ve read that kids who have come through Kumon can beast through exams and get really high marks, but get tripped up when the exam requires you to ‘show your workings’ because they can do it all in their heads. As an adult, I find the stamp game for long division confusing – like I don’t ‘get’ why you must start with the hundreds first and share them out. I don’t understand WHY the stamps have to line up to make a rectangle. A 5-6 year old would surely just learn the steps by rote. But then I see with the bead boards and the dot charts that it slowly moves towards the sort of division that I was taught at school (with crossing out numbers and regrouping). I can see that that gradual move towards abstraction really cements the procedure in kids’ heads, but I’m not sure it necessarily entails a conceptual understanding (which arguably doesn’t matter). It is a lot of faff if all you achieve is a procedure for doing long division. The benefit of this is that long division like this can be taught much earlier than in traditional programs, so they have more time to drill and get fast. So, in conclusion, I still have no idea which I prefer. I think they both achieve the same aim of making maths a fun puzzle, and by the time they’re 8 I would imagine both a Montessori kid and a Miquon kid has all the core math skills down pat. I think you would need to make sure you were doing enough drill on the side with either program,. I am going to ‘pick’ Miquon as our spine because it’s easier and cheaper. I also like the discovery aspect of it (although I realise that not all kids appreciate this). I may do some Montessori style activities as an extension to Miquon though if I have the energy/inclination – like work with the base 10 things earlier to do operations with large numbers. Or do you think this would be messing with Miquon's system? I also think I'd like to skip things like geometric shapes, clocks and measurements until after the operations are really solid a la @Not_a_Number's blog. Thank you for listening 😊 Please feel free to correct any misconceptions Edited June 7, 2022 by hi.im.em 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 I'm out at the moment, but later today I'll respond to this in more detail. (Not Montessori professional just better than average at math and explored the sequence. I use it to supplement Singapore and when my child asks for something we haven't encountered in Singapore.) Quick answer is static and dynamic move depends on the child's progression in place value. The stamp game for multiplication and division actually show why the procedure we have for big number multiplication and division work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 I do support your choice to do miquon instead. That sounds like a great choice for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 For the stamp game- I use a variation of this in our house. Why starting with the hundreds: in long division, you start with the largest place value and decompose from there. When you run out of a sharable amount of hundreds, for example, you decompose the remaining ones to be tens and add to the tens pile. The amount of back and forth work with place value between multiplication and division is crucial to understanding the stamp game. If you try to do it backward, it may not work out, or it takes more steps. Learning to share from biggest to smallest and seeing the difference in the procedures helps them figure this out. Plus seeing how division is really backward multiplication becomes intuitive. Why in a rectangle: we still use the area method at the end of Algebra 1 because it is the absolutely easiest way to see units. I use this with my Miquon kids: Multiplication and Division Kit. The same thing can be made with a placemat and a permanent marker to outline 1x20cm and 20x20cm rectangles. We move from Miquon, to this, to the checkerboard and then the more abstract numbers only. And then we do it again, and again, and again while working with different base systems and polynomials and finding squares formulas... Always the same method, just the "elephants" changing (Elephants are our way of simplyifying concepts. "5 elephants or 5 tens or 5x.."elephants" is our unit of measurement when the work gets a little boggy). I don't think you can go wrong with Miquon. There's a lot of discovery, and if you wanted more ways to explore the concepts you could look up CSMP or MEP, which both dovetail well with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 40 minutes ago, Clarita said: I do support your choice to do miquon instead. That sounds like a great choice for you. Thanks for your comments. Its kind of frustrating to me. I know Dr. Montessori will have very good reasons for structuring her program in the way she did - and I understand how each activity works individually- it’s just that without practical experience I can’t seem to get my head around how it all fits together. At least with Miquon it’s all laid out in a £7 book. It feels like for Montessori I need a degree (or at least one of those expensive video courses, it cannot be explained in words easily). What about teens and linear counting/skip counting - is that intro’d concurrently with the place value/4 operations work? In the online albums its in its own section. I’m guessing with the stamp game you would transition from dividing using the golden beads (therefore understanding why larger units need to be broken up) to using the tiles as representations. Ok I think I get it now. Thanks @HomeAgain. So I could do miquon as the spine, but perhaps go deeper into place value work with my base 10 material (in place of golden beads) and then transition through the stamp game as an extra, and then the dots etc? It really does seem like Miquon hits most of these concepts but with only a few sheets per idea it might be good to extend them. I’ve also just realised that the snake game is a way of drilling addition - not introducing a new concept. My online meanderings clearly are not cutting it - i might try a montessori maths app (for myself not dd). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 6 hours ago, hi.im.em said: My online meanderings clearly are not cutting it - i might try a montessori maths app (for myself not dd). This was where I found Mathessori had its worth for me. She had these flow charts to show how everything fit together. So, while I could search on you tube for videos on the presentations those flow charts helped me immensely. She would tell you when to move to certain topics, which were parallel, how could it look like in a homeschool setting, when a topic would be done and when you could introduce a certain activity. 15 hours ago, hi.im.em said: For instance, the four operations seem to be introduced sequentially, but concurrently with place value (using the golden beads and the bank game). However, it’s not clear at which point you introduce regrouping and move from static operations to dynamic ones? So first you would introduce the golden beads essentially show the child a unit bead, ten rod, hundred square and thousand cube. Then you would do some fetching games, massive layout (to show sequence of numbers and what they look like)... So after the child has some understanding of what the unit bead, ten rod, hundred square and thousand cube are (including how they are represented in the decimal system that's when you move to start them on the static operations, which are completed first using the golden beads. Concurrently, you start introducing the bank game to prepare the child for dynamic operations (operations where you are required to borrow or exchange between units, tens. hundreds, and thousands). Once they understand the bank game and exchanges then you can introduce dynamic operations. 15 hours ago, hi.im.em said: It is a lot of faff if all you achieve is a procedure for doing long division. The benefit of this is that long division like this can be taught much earlier than in traditional programs, so they have more time to drill and get fast. So with the stamp game it can be more than just giving them a lot of drill early on. The mechanism of the stamp game actually shows connects what you are actually trying to do with the number to the procedure. Personally I believe it has the potential to go farther than an introduction to the long division procedure. I think the connection between the stamp game and the long division procedure can lead to mental math strategies. I'm not convinced though just working with the manipulative will bring an average child there. I would tend to believe that a typical child may need more guidance than that to start gaining actual mental math strategies. 7 hours ago, hi.im.em said: My online meanderings clearly are not cutting it - i might try a montessori maths app (for myself not dd). This is where I have the hardest time doing everything Montessori too. I want to see where we are trying to go and how each activity fits together in the whole of math. I don't just want to "trust the method". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi.im.em Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) Oh yea. I wish I was one of those ‘trust the process’ people- it would make things much easier (and I realise it’s a big luxury to have the time to mull on it). They say the early years are simple, and I agree. However those years are the foundation for how children expect to be taught and sets up the student/teacher dynamic. I’m very weary of accidentally providing edutainment - I think that is one of the big pitfalls of homeschooling (especially with a ‘progressive’ approach) is that you forget to teach them to learn independently, or that learning is often really hard/unpleasant. Suddenly they’re 14 and you’re still doing read alouds and helping them work through maths problems and planning their essays, just because you’ve both got used to that being the status quo. What I love about montessori is the way she couched teachers as being facilitators of learning rather than the origins of it. I think that’s a really healthy attitude to take as a homeschooler. However the actual nitty-gritty of her method I can’t just take at face value. I want to know how it works, why it works, and what i need to do to make sure it’s working. People who are selling curricula and tell me to trust the process really push my buttons (ahem Waldorf). I think I might start a separate topic on fantasy before 6/ Waldorf as edutainment or necessary ‘soul food’ - if anyone knows of old threads about that let me know. It’s my next deep dive now that my maths plans are clearer. 🙂 Edited June 10, 2022 by hi.im.em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/3/2022 at 10:12 PM, hi.im.em said: @Not_a_Number I’m sure you get this all the time, so sorry if this is a repeat. From what I read on your blog you have added some extra micro steps between traditionally taught concepts (such as counting on as a micro step within learning to add). It seems you find the ‘established’ programmes lacking in that they neglect to explicitly teach these small steps, but is there one programme in particular that’s closer to the ideal? Do you second my husband’s conclusion that they are ‘much of a muchness’? (He just watched some youtube examples of lessons). Yeah, this is where I find the fact that I didn't USE these programs a real weakness. (Sorry to just be getting back to you now! I haven't been on much.) My impression from reading on here is that different programs have different strengths. For instance, I recall people saying that something like RightStart is very good at the beginning (place value and adding), and is then much less good when you get to later concepts like multiplication. I know that Beast Academy (the only program we've seriously tried using!) is excellent at trying to get puzzle-oriented kids engaged but is lackluster at introucing new concepts. When I looked at Miquon, I liked the exploratory nature of it (and I really would NOT worry about things like time and geometry. It's much more important to get the basics down), but I'm personally fairly opposed to using number lines as much as they do -- in my personal experience, number lines don't line up with kids' natural mental models all that well. I would also say that a lot more depends on how comfortable you are with the concepts yourself than on the specific programs you use. Different kids require different explanations and a fair amount of flexibility; if you can do that, you can fill in any program. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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