I feel the same way about my approach to science, but also feel a bit unmoored by the idea of creating a living books curriculum from scratch. I want something to hang it on you know? The Pyramids and Castle books are just the sort of thing I want to use... maybe it doesn't matter if the order is a bit more haphazard. I have purchased the Nobel curriculum book 'science through inquiry' or something but it just seems a bit much for the elementary years and also has no sense of 'cover this, then this'.

Let us know if you ever find it!

Hi all, I am designing a STEM focused curriculum and would like to use something like SOTW but with a science bent for my spine, learning about the history as we go. Any ideas? So far I've collected books called 'primitive technology' and 'Caveman chemistry' but they are for the teacher. I really like them though so if you have any suggestions for my own reading that'd be helpful (I am a lit major so it's a bit new).

I would be so out of my depth if I had to teach your mathy son @8filltheheart! Although i suppose once they outstrip you they could just teach you to cement what they learn from their curriculum?

So what do you think? Persevere with Gattegno since I already have the c-rods and access to the text books? Or get myself some MUS blocks and a password for the Crewton Ramone videos? I have a feeling I will get further with Crewton, so perhaps i should look at it as an investment in my own professional development as a homeschooler. I really want to *teach* my little ones to do maths, but for that I need to put in the time/effort. Also i have no students to practice on so watching a teacher teach is probably the next best thing. Crewton Ramone/Mortensen probably makes more sense to me just because I have the background knowledge of the Montessori math, I I kind of know the drill (with the three part lesson etc). I will watch the videos of him teaching though, like you say it seems more discovery/socratic based than Mortensen.

Hmm interesting. The literature i’ve seen suggest that little kids really need manipulatives (montessori et al.) but I can see that once some kids get older they would get annoyed with all the guided discovery and just want to be shown the algorithm. I think that misses a lot of the ‘fun stuff’ of maths though. Saying that. I told my husband about the CR trick of ‘all the numbers want to be a ten’ thing that he uses to make mental maths easier, and he was like ‘umm yea everyone does that’. It was news to me. If I have to minus 37 i would minus 30 and 7 not 40 and add 3. But he’s mathy and i’m not. So maybe the stuff that I need to be shown with manipulatives is just obvious to some people. Maybe I would be best to work through an incremental old school program like rays, looking for videos to illustrate how to do stuff with blocks as needed? I don’t really comfortable teaching material that i don’t have a full handle on myself - and taking myself through some sort of program seems to be the best way of getting from a to b. Then if my daughter can be taught the same way I guess its a bonus.. but fully open to picking a curriculum to suit her learning style nearer the time

Oh yea. It’s actually more for my own education at this point. I need the manipulatives, lol. So the reason i’m looking for a full curriculum is that I want to see where it ends up - what it’s working towards. And also because I want to relearn the stuff I just learned the algorithms for in school with the manipulatives to give myself a conceptual maths education. I feel like I can only teach it well if i know where I’m hoping to end up, ykwm? Thanks for the tips re Math U See higher grades. The Gattegno books do freak me out a bit. I’m very visual with maths, i really need to watch a video of it being done. There does look to be lots of CR-style video lessons using the C-rods on youtube though, but am I right in thinking that they are mostly geared towards lower grades? Interesting re the different types of rods. You almost have me convinced to go c-rods @HomeAgain 😉 On the other hand I really like the idea of going through all of the CR stuff myself so that i know the method well, and then watching the video lessons together with my daughter (after the initial play stage), pausing to work through his problems. I like his energy. I already have a small set of C-rods so will do some more messing about with Gattegno text books, but so far he had lost me at fractions 😳. I stopped studying maths at 16, which is allowed in the uk.

CR, i know, does things like factoring with young kids and collecting like terms. The idea is that they learn the four operations by solving quite complex problems with the blocks. They are pretty heavily guided but it means that these things aren’t foreign to them when they encounter them later. Not sure about how Gattegno does it, but i know he likes to name the blocks by their colours before using numbers, so maybe its implicit algebra/factoring etc but its not spelled out.

Interesting that you think there are more resources for C-rods than MUS blocks @HomeAgain, I had always thought it was the other way around. The ones you listed look really good. What grade does gattegno go up to? I really like that Mortensen/MUS can go all the way to 12th.

Hi all, I’ve been giving myself a maths re-education while trying to work out how I want to teach it. I want to teach conceptually, playfully and early (start at 4). I started with Montessori (too ££) and from there found Mortensen blocks, which I found out have been approved by montessorians of a cheap alternative which are in some ways better and more adaptable than the montessori materials. See paper by montessori teacher Judith Townsend: https://www.crewtonramoneshouseofmath.com/support-files/townsend-mortensen.pdf I have enjoyed watching the Crewton Ramone House of Math videos and I think thats the way I want to go. In an ideal world I would buy all the Mortensen Math books to make his videos work as an actual program and give us some structure - but their prices and shipping costs are extortionate. CR says not to bother with the books and just ‘play math’ but that freaks me out. I don’t have his passwords though and he claims his program is more structured inside the paywall, but some of the reviews suggest otherwise. Gattegno and the C-rods are super accessible in the UK but i’m struggling to nail down the differences. I will refer to the different approaches as Mortensen v Gattegno as they were the originals. CR and MathUSee are spin offs from Mortensen and Miquon is from Gattegno. So far I have: -Gattegno and Moretenson both introduce algebra right off the bat. Gattegno doesn’t have any actual numbers until book 3 (just says one green is three whites etc). Mortensen encourages associating the rods with a number and has lines on them so kids can count them. In Mortensen, one of the first games is to build pictures and count them. Mortensen does algebra traditionally with x and Gattegno uses letters to signify the colour of rods eg 3r = g (three whites is one green). This is to encourage a relational understanding of math. MathUSee doesn’t do early algebra and Miquon does some, but uses shapes. -Mortensen/MathUSee blocks are bigger and easier for little kids to handle. They also have an ‘empty’ underneath that can be used to signify a negative number. Some people on this board say the C-rods are better for being smooth as it discourages counting. - Mortensen uses a montessori three part lesson, and also moves from the concrete blocks, to pictorial representations of the blocks on paper (square for 100, line for 10 and dot for 1) to finally just working with numbers. I believe singapore does this too. MUS misses the pictorial step. No idea about Gattegno. - Mortensen goes right up to 12th grade, not sure about gattegno. I know miquon only goes to third. I don’t know Gattegno that well but have I missed things? If Gattegno is basically the same as Moretenson it makes no sense to shell out for the text books. I could just buy the Gattegno text books and adapt them to MUS blocks? (I think I want to use MUS blocks to make it easy to follow CRs videos, or to switch to MUS for a bit if i’m struggling because ill or have a newborn or something) Another idea I had is to use a vintage text book like Rays or Grubes (it seems like they were more conceptual back then) and use blocks to lay out the word problems and work through the questions (i don't like having to think of my own questions like CR does). That way I would at least know I was covering a certain amount of material. I could print off MUS worksheets for extra practice. If anyone has any experience then please, tell me more! It seems like Mortensen is out of fashion (and I can see why with the price!), but it looks like it would fit my teaching style well - I prefer like a bit of structure but not scripted lessons. This is why I ruled out right start but will be getting their games book for drill.

Hi @Hunter, Sorry to revive this ancient thread. I’d love to hear your reasoning behind cursive first = no spalding. I am looking into LA programs and pretty much settled on RLTL. Handwriting lessons through literature, it’s sister programme has a ‘slant cursive’ option which is my preference aesthetically. However RLTL is a spalding program so now I’m not sure. Any thoughts? I feel like the barefoot meandering programmes are really strong and much easier to implement than a vintage programme for a newbie (is that true?). As an early-reader-bad-speller myself, the spalding method makes a lot of sense. But will I have to compromise teaching gorgeous cursive? For background my dd is still little but quite advanced for her age in language and motor skills - no sign on any LDs so far. I am learning cursive myself and find it very soothing to practice while in boring zoom meetings 🙂

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I've had a couple of days to mull on this. I also figured out how to use the search function properly (use google and tag welltrainedmind,com), and discovered some old threads on the Robinson Curriculum and ELTL/RLTL that were helpful. RC seems to be quite controversial (for good reason!) but from what I observed, the way most people are using it/interpreting it is actually not that dissimilar from usual classical practices. Art Robinson needed his kids to be independent early on, most of us don't need to be anywhere near as extreme. I think it's useful in that it gives homeschoolers permission to go back to basics. I love all the fancy curriculums (hell I LOVE Waldorf!) but sometimes writing a half-page narration in a plain exercise book and doing some maths drills is all that you/the student can handle that day. Not every season has to be super rich and juicy and teacher intensive (which is what CM and Walforf encourage and is probably ideal if you have someone else running the household). @Clarita, @Xahm , @HomeAgain- because I only have a toddler, I actually don't have a clue what most 6-year-olds are like. so thanks for your insights. I can see that the age distinction above is completely arbitrary. It seems like being able to read for meaning, do all four operations with single digits confidently and recall maths facts are the minimum possible requirements for working independantly. And even then there will be waves. Something I'm thinking about now - maybe I want to stick with a level of work that they CAN accomplish alone (so say working a grade behind for ELTL/Maths drills), and then work with them 1:1 on higher-level stuff. That way they are still having the experience of independent work and the sense of agency/self-esteem/discipline that goes with that, but still getting the challenge of a teacher-intensive program like miquon and ELTL. @8filltheheart I think I meant 'hand-holding' rather than 'spoon feeding'. I do want to hand-hold my children, I just also want like an hour in the day of 'independent work time' where there is no hand-holding. I will still read aloud a lot, but interest-led rather than on a schedule. I was thinking of using Wayfairers as a menu, and kind of strewing the books around the house. I think of it like a Montessori-style controlled environment. If there are lots of good books around on a variety of different subjects, my kids will either look through them themselves or ask me to read them aloud. Ditto with board games etc. I will save the teacher-lead stuff for the 3Rs and let the students lead on the rest. The independent time I imagine as consisting of a certain number of easyish problems from maths-mastery program (Saxon, Kumon) and some independent copywork, drawing, journaling or narration, This would run alongside me working though a maths program like miquon or Saxon, and a complete LA program such as ELTL. This is obviously with older students who have passed the basic requirements for independant work outlined above.

@HomeAgain the waves make sense - thank you. And the 'learning to read' years. I suppose my mistake was thinking that once you can read, you can read. But there are certainly different 'levels' of reading so it makes sense to wait until nearer 8/9 before requiring much independence on that front (sigh). Executive functioning is super interesting. My original thoughts were that you stifle learning executive functioning with too much handholding, but you've made me rethink. Showing them how work can be done is an important step toward becoming independent. I think that's subliminally why I like Miquon and ELTL, I think they both teach the necessary facts and then show you all the amazing ways you can work with those facts. I like the idea of offering more teacher time as needed, and then backing off when they seem to be doing well independently. @wisdomandtreasures your day sounds so lovely. Just like I imagine my dream home school would be like. Are the Robinson vocab cards/matching games good? Do you not rate his 'exams' or just that you don't need them in your homeschool because you can assess understanding orally? His curriculum actually seems quite expensive considering all the books are in the public domain. I kind of want it though. Apparently, he has instructions on how best to use Saxon and adapt it for different needs. Was this useful?

Thanks @wisdomandtreasures I will check her out. How are you finding the Robinson literature quizzes? There aren't any samples online. I probably won't end up buying the Robinson curriculum as I prefer barefoot meanderings' book list, but there is definitely some crossover and I would like to compare the comprehension questions. @HomeAgainI guess I asked for it😅 Thanks for the heads up about The Princess and the Goblin. I haven't read it but definitely plan to read stuff before handing it over, and substituting/audiobooking where necessary. Do you see any other probs with ELTL? It seems great to me - a lot like WTM materials in terms of rigor but a bit more 'in one place'. It has instructions about how to modify if a child needs less writing; and encourages different styles of narration - oral and drawing - to accommodate learning styles/developmental needs. It seems that not many people are using it though, am I missing something? The alternative is to use separate curricula for grammar, literature, and composition. I do like WTM for that but ELTL just seems easier to implement - fewer moving parts. On 1. Yes that's true. I am planning A LOT more interaction than a Robinson purist (if they even exist). My idea is to have c. 1.5h of independent study (or quiet play) a day, 20-40 mins of intense, hands-on, one on one instruction per day, per child. The rest of the time relaxed. project-based, read-aloud, nature walks vibe. If I have three school-age kids that's 2hs tutoring per day, year-round. I may be wrong, but that seems the max that is reasonable to me, fitted around mealtimes, ferrying to and from extracurriculars, facilitating the sudden urge to 'camp' in the garden, emotional meltdowns, just hanging out.. So if each child (over 6.5) is only getting 20-40 mins of skill-based instruction daily, it better be focused on the important stuff, right? For those 2hs I would be in 'teaching' mode, but the rest of the time I would still be in 'mum' mode. Answering a million questions/getting out the book that might answer the question. 2/3. I don't think I expressed myself well - the afternoons would be for having those discussions. Pathways has you all reading about the same era of history and the same science subject, so is deliberately set up for this 'enrichment' type of learning. It just wouldn't be 'formal' in the way that the ELTL and Miquon/Saxon would be. I would sometimes pull a science or history book to use in the morning's writing exercise, but I imagine we would naturally discuss things while going about daily life/eating etc. We don't have a tv so there's not much else to do, and my husband and I talk about the books we read, so it's just part of family culture. 4/5. Not sure it's superior to other methods, just more doable. If I had an only child, or two children close together, I might do a different curriculum for everything, completely bespoke, and spend tonnes of time reading aloud. I actually love the Waldorf curricula but it all seems so so much. With children at different levels, or even a baby/toddler and a school-aged one, I just think it would be overwhelming. I have a toddler now and can't imagine trying to keep her safe and fed and entertained while also doing a full CM, Classical or Waldorf curriculum with another child. I'm not planning to have another baby until she's nearly 4 - so I'll have at least two with very different needs. Establishing the habit of doing independent desk work with dd will set the tone for the rest of the homeschool, and means there's room to add more children into the mix. Having a different set of workbooks for everything I think falls into the trap of trying to replicate what the schools do. For me, the whole point of homeschooling is that you choose where to put your energy. I suppose what I am suggesting is not actually Robinson, but more Classical Education style Maths and Language Arts as a priority, and interest-lead/buffet style for the rest. Maybe it's slightly different for me too because in the UK you only take 3 or 4 subjects for A level at 18, so it seems less important that we 'do' all the disciplines in depth.

Hi everyone, Feel free to pick holes in this - or chime in if you have experience with the curriculum mentioned. Not homeschooling yet so may I be naive. I know it’s controversial, but I’m really struck by the self-teaching home-school. My selfish reasons are: - I’m an introvert and know I will burn out on any teaching-intensive programme - I want a big-ish family and may have other young children who need my attention - I would like to do some (remote) work outside the home My unselfish reasons are - I want a skill-based education for my children so that they can spend as much time as possible pursuing interests (whether they be academic or otherwise) - I think solo-learning is a very important skill. It just doesn’t make sense to spend grades 1-3 spoon-feeding and cajoling, and then teach them ‘study skills’ and expect them to work independently by university. So many university students flail without the handholding, and this applies to the workplace too. Many end up depressed without the structure of school (UK universities are less hand-holding than American ones, at least for Humanities). - It’s been scientifically proven that work you choose to do yourself is better quality than if it had been chosen for you (Montessori schools operate on that basis). I want to keep 'non-negotiables' as minimal as possible. - By teaching the core skills very thoroughly in the younger years (all 74 phonograms, all their Maths facts/concepts), they will be able to read anything or find ways to think through problems with or without me/a teacher. Surely that should be the goal of a solid education. So, my current thoughts/theoretical plans are: Young ones are actively taught maths and literacy every day (or on alternating days): - to read and spell using Orton Gillingham method. I like Kathy from barefoot meanderings' Reading Lessons Through Literature, as I think it has the most hand-holding for me. Spell to Read and Write also look good, also All About Reading. This would be preceded by Montessori early reading sequence with metal insets, sandpaper letters, and learning to ‘write’ with a movable alphabet. It involves learning phonics off-pat with flashcards. Learn Spelling rules off pat. - cursive first – RLTL has that built in (I would pick slant cursive as my handwriting style) and an extra handwriting book or SRW has a cursive first handwriting programme. - Maths (the four operations) – conceptually first with Miquon Math/Montessori activites. Then learn the maths facts off-pat using Robinson flashcards. From approx 8.5-9 years old or once they can read fluently and know their Math basics enough to start Saxon 54. Every morning, after a walk, we would have a ‘school time’ where they would each do their maths first and then any independent written (or drawn for little ones) work. They could choose to work through a workbook once their written work is done (like the critical thinking company ones or science ones) or draw/play/read quietly. I would be in the room with them working on my own stuff. At this point Maths would be independent – they would mark their own work and I would give them regualar placement tests to check retention. I would mark their essays. Maths could be outsourced to a Kumon centre but not ideally. I would remain involved till middle-school for grammar/LA study. I would start Kathy’s English Lessons Through Literature programme once reading is fluent – teaching the grammar lesson and supervising dictation/copy work for middle school ones. I would give each child a formal, 20 min lesson from ELTL or Miquon at some point during the rest of the day (not during 2h school time). I love the look of ELTL as it systematically teaches them how to write an essay/narration with a gentle transition into independent work. Eventually, I would just have them write an essay on something they were interested in/reading about/working on every day and have them work through ELTL themselves. I would ‘edit’ their work journalism style to show them how it could be improved. Typing is fine in later years. The books studied in ELTL would be ‘required’ reading (with substitutions for the ones I/the child doesn’t vibe with) plus one or two books from the Pathways history/science/geography selections. I would adapt certain things according to the student, such as the amount of reading/writing required. Narrations could be done by drawing. Some may need to start the independent work later and take longer with Miquon/RLTL. I’d quite like to make it so they are always reading one fiction and one non-fiction book, or alternating the two – that way the copywork and dictation can be pulled from either. In the later levels of ELTL I think non-fiction is incorporated anyhow. Afternoons would be for activities, playing and free reading. I would do read-alouds and games on request if we were home and according to my availability. There would be a ‘morning basket’ for each child with Wayfairers-esque book selections for the historical period, optional workbooks, and games. The older students would probably be enrolled in online study courses/studying for exams or going to Sixth-form college. I would do a family read-aloud before bed. Something on the historical period we were studying or the Bible, or maybe something like Narnia. Do you think this would keep us sane until the teen years? I'm aiming for simplicity and rigour.