(English) Language Usage Question

[Carrie12345]

I’ve only noticed this recently, through things like YouTube and TikTok, and it’s actually making me *more nutty the more I hear it, rather than less, probably because I can’t figure out the WHY! Most regional or cultural language differences feel, to me, like they have an obvious reason/root/logic, but here I’m stumped.

It’s using “whenever” instead of “when”.

I’ve been on message boards and groups with people all over the country and world for more than 20 years and have never noticed this in print, only in strangers recording themselves speaking.

”Whenever I graduated,” “And then whenever we got married,” “Story about the details of the day, including whenever my alarm went off, and then whenever I got to work” … Things with actual, known places in time. Not an unknown “Oh, whenever that might have been” or multiple occurrences like “Whenever I eat too much cheese.”

Why?! Someone please tell me why so I can find a way to get over it!!!

[QueenCat]

Makes me twitchy.

[Acorn]

I haven’t noticed this yet but I am laughing because I’m slowly getting out the door to work. I’m actually in the office this year, but arrival times have been variable for all my coworkers. Whenever we get there…

[wintermom]

Maybe it's the new word usage of the month, similar to "literally" not actually meaning literally, instead meaning "figuratively." As in, "I literally sh*t my pants, I was so scared." Which translates as, "I didn't actually poop in my pants because that would be gross, I was really scared but I need some sort of visual that expresses how strong the feeling was, and literally sounds really strong." Which literally means that they have no idea what 'literally' means.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by wintermom

[bibiche]

@Carrie12345 My phone often changes when to whenever, no idea why. Have you heard anyone say it or just read it? Maybe it’s not a thing. Maybe the phones are trying to change language patterns. 🤖 🤖 🤖 

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, bibiche said:

@Carrie12345 My phone often changes when to whenever, no idea why. Have you heard anyone say it or just read it? Maybe it’s not a thing. Maybe the phones are trying to change language patterns. 🤖 🤖 🤖 

I literally said 😉 😆 I’ve never seen it in print.
But this turns out to be a popular topic on Reddit. Still no answer, lol.

I did see a better example there than mine to demonstrate the usage for those who haven’t heard it. “Whenever I was a child…” Like, “Whenever I was a child, I had my own room.”

[Elizabeth86]

I have really bad grammar habits, but since you ask I have no idea if I do this or not.

[bibiche]

37 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I literally said 😉 😆 I’ve never seen it in print.

D’oh. Indeed you did. I am *literally* dying of embarrassment because of my poor reading comprehension skills now. 😂 💀 😜

[skimomma]

I have one.  "Could care less"  It should be "Couldn't care less!"  When casually uttered, I can excuse it, but I have started hearing it in song lyrics and it drives me bonkers!

[Farrar]

Something like "could care less" is really different to me because it's a well established phrase. "Whenever I did that thing that happened at a specific time" is a new one on me, so it chafes a bit just because it seems mildly confusing. Like, "Whenever you had the baby you're holding? Surely you KNOW when you had the baby. It's not the sort of thing you just forget."

But... language evolves.

[wintermom]

This misuse of 'whenever' reminds me of my French classes in high school and past tenses.

Whenever I was doing abc, xyz happened.  This  is past imperfect, isn't it? The first action was not completed, so the verb tense is passe imparfait.

When I did abc, I enjoyed myself.  The first action was completed, so the verb tense is passe complete. (or something like that, I can't remember the exact French word and I'm not chasing up accents.)

Edited May 6, 2022 by wintermom

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that they were trying to sound more erudite by using the longer word. But of course they failed. 

[wintermom]

14 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that they were trying to sound more erudite by using the longer word. But of course they failed. 

...but failed because they didn't know what erudite actually means.

P.S. I had to look it up. 😅

[Tanaqui]

Wintermom, the use of the word "literally" as an intensifier has been widespread in English for over 300 years. It has existed in that form, in that usage, for as long as it has had its figurative meaning of "true, real". (The original definition, of course, is "of or relating to letters".) You can confirm this by looking it up in a dictionary.

When we say a word such as literally, really, or very is an intensifier, we do not mean that it means "figuratively". An intensifier is simply a word that modifies a statement to make it stronger.

Many words that might seem to mean "this is true, not figurative" are intensifiers in English. It is curious to me that people rail against "literally" but not against the exact same usage of "really". When I say my mother really exploded - well, that is no more real than it is literal. I am not picking pieces of Mom-Bomb off the ground. I simply mean she was angry, and I am using an intensifier to emphasize that statement. Likewise, if I say "I honestly just about died laughing", nobody thinks I had a serious medical emergency due to laughter. They think I laughed very hard.

You cannot replace the words "literally" or "really" or any other intensifiers with the word "figuratively" and retain the same meaning, because those words do not mean the same thing and are not used in the same way.

[Tanaqui]

skimomma, "could care less" has been around and rising since at least the 1970s: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=could+care+less%2Ccouldn't+care+less&year_start=1930&year_end=2019&corpus=28&smoothing=3

It only appeared about a generation after the first written citation of "couldn't care less / could not care less".

As the phrase is common in colloquial speech, it makes sense that it would also be common in popular music, which often is written in a casual, colloquial style.

You and Carrie are making the same mistake, albeit in slightly different forms. You are attempting to understand a fixed expression by looking at the component pieces and adding them up. She is attempting to understand a language change in the same way. You're both trying to apply logic. This is a critical error. It never works.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Tanaqui

[skimomma]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You're both trying to apply logic. This is a critical error. It never works.

This is true for many issues in my life right now! 

[Laura Corin]

I think that usage of 'whenever' is common in  Ireland.

https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/19/whenever-when/#:~:text=In some dialects (notably in,décolletage.” This is nonstandard.

[Tanaqui]

LOL. It might work for other things, but honestly, it doesn't work for this! Wintermom is doing yet a third variation on the same basic error - she doesn't like a usage, she's been told it's wrong, so she's using logic to work out why it must be wrong while ignoring the fact that the same logic could be used on plenty of words that she probably never thought of - "really" is just the tip of the iceberg here. Many widespread intensifiers in English that aren't tagged by listeners as (often regional) slang (such as "wicked", "hella", "mad") have their etymological origins in "truth", and usually those origins aren't exactly well-hidden. About the only one I can think of where your average speaker probably couldn't work it out just by thinking for a minute is "very", and even that, once it's pointed out, is clearly connected to "veracity" and "verify".

[Clarita]

Sometimes I use whenever instead of when on an event that technically I should know the date and time of it's happening to impart the feeling that the when is fuzzy in my mind. 

For example, say "whenever I had the baby" sure I have my kids' birth certificates and clearly, I was present for the event, but I was pretty foggy at the time.