Does calculus count too much for admissions?

[kokotg]

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2022/02/14/does-calculus-count-too-much-admissions

Calculus absolutely counts too much for admissions. My calculus teacher husband agrees, too. I absolutely believe that my current 10th grader who's probably headed toward some kind of humanities major would be better served by stats than calculus senior year, and yet I'll probably encourage him to take calculus anyway because if he wants to go out of state for college he'll need the excellent need based aid that only highly selective colleges offer, so he'll need to make himself as competitive as possible for those schools (and I'm reasonably sure he can handle calculus fine, particularly with a live-in math tutor on call). So I'm glad to see that some colleges are rethinking this, but it's still a problem that can't be solved by a handful of admissions departments acting alone. 

[Roadrunner]

I never understood why they don’t take into account (or maybe they do?) the intended course of study. I mean why should an engineering bound student have the same exact preparation as a future history major? You should expect to see calculus for one and AP history courses for the other. 
I think it’s madness to push all kids into calculus. 
And yay for statistics. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Roadrunner

[kokotg]

6 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I never understood why they don’t take into account (or maybe they do?) the intended course of study. I mean why should an engineering bound student have the same exact preparation as a future history major? You are oils expect the see calculus for one and a AP history courses for the other. 
I think it’s madness to push all kids into calculus. 
And yay for statistics. 

I think they do consider it...like nearly everyone at a very selective engineering school will come in with calculus. But the conventional wisdom is that calculus is the harder class than statistics, so when admissions departments are evaluating rigor, students who took calculus are seen as taking the more challenging course load. And, I mean, that's reinforced at the high school level. Students who don't do well in pre-calc are recommended for stats instead of calculus. So then when you're trying to make distinctions between a bunch of kids with near perfect grades and test scores, course selection is another thing you look at closely. Honestly, I'm not even sure what the solution is. Maybe it will fix itself because birth rates are going to start to be less favorable for highly selective colleges soon! 

ETA: I guess making AP Stats harder is one possibility. But I don't know enough about AP stats to know if that's feasible or not.

Edited February 14, 2022 by kokotg

[Lori D.]

I would not take Calculus in 12th for the reason of "being competitive" for selective schools. Esp. if NOT heading into a STEM program.

There are MANY other ways to be competitive and stand out for admissions to selective schools. In fact, I would argue that because everyone else applying to those schools has Calculus and many AP tests/classes, that they all look alike. It's the students who pursued a passion, who are unique in their course selection, and who explored a variety of extracurriculars who are unique. 

ETA:
Also, if financial aid is going to be a heavy need, rather than applying to selective schools that all the other top scholars are applying to ("small fish in a big pond") and only a few get the $$$ -- consider being a "big fish in a smaller pond" and look at other schools with high quality programs for the degree that your student is interested in, where your student will score in the top 5-10% of incoming freshman. Far more likely to land big $$$$$ going that route.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Lori D.

[Roadrunner]

I think the answer is to evaluate STEM kids separate from liberal arts when possible, but I get kids don’t always know. 
And I think everybody should take statistics. That class makes better citizens, just like US Government class. 

[Roadrunner]

DS’s BC class only has 15 kids there. Half of them Asian even though Asian population of the school is I think in single digits. Very few girls (actually only one girl who isn’t Asian) and I believe my kid is the only brown one there. Not a single African American and come to think of it Hispanic at least not this year. That’s despite the district twisting itself into a pretzel trying to get girls and minorities into the class. In fact they are having a hard time convincing kids period to take that class and that’s despite being among the top districts with a very wealthy (I once saw a Bentley drive out with a student in it) population. Now we have poor people too, but the school is majority middle and upper middle class. So I would have expected BC to be the norm for seniors. Instead most stop at AB. I think it’s because the math preparation is so poor up to that point, that most are terrified of Calculus. I think most kids in there have either tutors or parents who can help. AP stats is also not favored much but I think it’s because they don’t have a good teacher. 

[kokotg]

28 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I would not take Calculus in 12th for the reason of "being competitive" for selective schools.

There are MANY other ways to be competitive and stand out for admissions to selective schools. In fact, I would argue that because everyone else applying to those schools has Calculus and many AP tests/classes, that they all look alike. It's the students who pursued a passion, who are unique in their course selection, and who explored a variety of extracurriculars who are unique. 

But the report is about how admissions officers acknowledge that they do favor students who take calculus and how many of them acknowledge it's a problem. 

Quote

Consider Wesleyan University, where 79 percent of the incoming fall 2021 class had completed math through calculus—a rate that far exceeds the most recently documented national trends.

They quote one admissions officer as saying, "

“We consider what is available to a student. No penalty if calculus is not offered.” (emphasis mine). 

Those are just a couple of examples. Certainly kids can get into highly selective colleges without calculus, but the prevailing wisdom right now among both high school counselors and college admissions officers is that students applying to these colleges are expected to take calculus if it's available to them. I watched my kid with a 4.0UW/1550 and multiple university or AP classes in every core subject get waitlisted at 8 schools. If my 10th grader wants to have a good shot at those same schools, I'm not going to tell them, "no one will care if you don't take calculus" because all evidence is that that's simply not the case, whether I think it should be or not.

[kokotg]

I'll also echo again that this is with the caveat that my kid does have access to calculus and likely will do well in it with a reasonable amount of effort. If I thought he would struggle in calculus I would suggest something else, and if it weren't available to him I would encourage him to apply to selective schools anyway. But if he wants the best shot at admission to schools like Wesleyan I will advise him honestly that calculus will "look better" on his transcript than stats. ETA: and I feel so strongly that everyone ought to take stats that I might encourage him to double up senior year and do both if he can fit it in. My oldest is a math major so knew he'd take stats in college, and my current senior did calc AB in 11th and then stats in 12th, but 10th grader won't get to AB until 12th grade.

Edited February 14, 2022 by kokotg

[fourisenough]

25 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 So I would have expected BC to be the norm for seniors. Instead most stop at AB. I think it’s because the math preparation is so poor up to that point, that most are terrified of Calculus.

I’m sure you didn’t intend this, but it sounds like you don’t consider AB to be calculus. It is— it’s the first semester of college calculus, which is more than most students will ever need (though not enough for STEM students, obviously).

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, fourisenough said:

I’m sure you didn’t intend this, but it sounds like you don’t consider AB to be calculus. It is— it’s the first semester of college calculus, which is more than most students will ever need (though not enough for STEM students, obviously).

I didn’t intend it 🤣

I meant to say in a competitive and wealthy school where kids have ambitious goals (a ton of kids trying for Stanford, Pomona, and the likes) you would think that many would want to go into BC, but at the most, AB is what they attempt. In fact pretty much everybody in our district manages to finish precalc as a junior because of the way they stack math classes. Very few kids wouldn’t be calculus ready by junior or senior year. So having only 15 kids out of several hundred attempt BC was unexpected to me. I would guess Bay Area is different. 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

But the report is about how admissions officers acknowledge that they do favor students who take calculus and how many of them acknowledge it's a problem. 

They quote one admissions officer as saying, "

“We consider what is available to a student. No penalty if calculus is not offered.” (emphasis mine). 

Those are just a couple of examples. Certainly kids can get into highly selective colleges without calculus, but the prevailing wisdom right now among both high school counselors and college admissions officers is that students applying to these colleges are expected to take calculus if it's available to them. I watched my kid with a 4.0UW/1550 and multiple university or AP classes in every core subject get waitlisted at 8 schools. If my 10th grader wants to have a good shot at those same schools, I'm not going to tell them, "no one will care if you don't take calculus" because all evidence is that that's simply not the case, whether I think it should be or not.

Are you saying he got waitlisted and didn’t have calculus so that could be the reason? 
My brain has walked out on me today. 
 

 

[kokotg]

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Are you saying he got waitlisted and didn’t have calculus so that could be the reason? 
My brain has walked out on me today. 
 

 

nope--I'm saying that even with calculus + 2 maths past calc and even with everything else going for him academically he still got waitlisted a ton of places (and got in at a lot of other great schools; our experience was that once you hit the top 20 or so of LACs it feels like a crapshoot)...so I know that at that level of competition you need every advantage you can get, and calculus is one of those advantages, even if it shouldn't be. Another quote from the report:

Quote

“Calculus is an easy answer to a complicated question. Institutions are looking for a simple gatekeeper. We are looking for ways to determine excellent and extraordinary students.”

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by kokotg

[kokotg]

2 hours ago, Lori D. said:

 

ETA:
Also, if financial aid is going to be a heavy need, rather than applying to selective schools that all the other top scholars are applying to ("small fish in a big pond") and only a few get the $$$ -- consider being a "big fish in a smaller pond" and look at other schools with high quality programs for the degree that your student is interested in, where your student will score in the top 5-10% of incoming freshman. Far more likely to land big $$$$$ going that route.

My oldest applied to a range of colleges, including a couple of true safeties. At one of them he was indeed offered a full ride, but the school turned out to be not a good fit for him and his interests, though it's a great school in many ways. But a full ride there was certainly not assured; he was offered a scholarship funded by a federal grant that was specifically for STEM majors. Another offered him pretty good financial aid but couldn't compete with the packages offered by much more highly ranked needs-met schools. Chasing merit at lower ranked schools is a great strategy for many middle income families and for many high achieving kids, but there's really not much competition for generous needs-met schools for kids who are Pell eligible/have very low EFCs. ETA: and, of course, the way to be competitive for the very best scholarships at lower ranked schools is the same as the way to be competitive for admission at highly selective schools: i.e. rigor counts, and admissions officers see calculus as a shorthand for rigor.

Edited February 14, 2022 by kokotg

[regentrude]

Shrug. Can't get too worked out about that. The tippy top schools can have their pick of outstanding students. So they're using calculus as one of the markers to determine who excels academically. Still, calculus is not rocket science, so it's not ludicrous to expect a humanities major who wants a spot at a top uni to jump through this hoop. (In German high school, calculus 1 used to be mandatory for all college bound students irrespective of major - it was part of the college readiness examination.)

Does a history major need to have calculus? No. But if a school wants students to demonstrate that they are extraordinary among other excellent students, it makes sense to put the bar high across all subjects. Or he can excel in some other way. 

Most colleges accept most students. The majority of colleges don't care if you have calculus or not. Nobody has to apply to Harvard.

Edited February 14, 2022 by regentrude

[kokotg]

(Hi. I can talk about college admissions for far too long). There are (at least) a couple of different things going on here. My personal pet peeve is the way that statistics gets the short of the stick when it comes to determinations of rigor, even though it makes more sense for most non STEM kids to take, and that's the thing that affects my own kids the most:

Quote

Regardless of whether calculus is necessary preparation for college, entrenched beliefs about academic rigor and the premium placed on calculus as a sign of rigor play a significant role in admissions, as illustrated by responses to our national survey of admissions professionals:

• When asked to name which advanced high school math courses carry the most weight for admissions, respondents’ top three choices were AP Calculus (75 percent), regular calculus (73 percent), and precalculus (50 percent)—all ahead of AP Statistics (38 percent).

• An overwhelming number of respondents (79 percent) agreed with the statement, “Students who have taken calculus are more likely to succeed in college.”

• Close to 80 percent said faculty at their institutions place a high priority on calculus as a sign of rigor.

But then the bigger issue is equity. If 79% of Wesleyan students took calculus in high school, but only 50% of high schools offer calculus...well, you don't need to have taken calculus to do that math. 

Quote

While 50 percent of all high schools offer calculus, only 38 percent of high schools
with predominantly Black or Latinx enrollment offer calculus (U.S. Department of Education, 2018). Students in rural areas are also less likely to have access to the course (Saw & Agger, 2021). 

Incidentally, I'm quoting from the report linked to in the article I posted above: https://justequations.org/wp-content/uploads/Just-Equations-2021-Report-New-Calculus-Final-Digital.pdf

 

[regentrude]

On a slightly different note: a high score on the AP Calc AB does not, in fact, guarantee that the student is proficient in math. We regularly have freshmen with AP AB who then do so poorly on the math placement test that they place in  college algebra/trig, i.e. remedial math that won't count towards their degree.

[Roadrunner]

I am assuming here we aren’t taking about Harvard but schools most kids want - selective publics. At least that’s the CA reality. I am guessing tippy top students can pull off calculus, but a UCSD bound history major maybe doesn’t need it (?). 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

But then the bigger issue is equity.

Completely agree - but that does not single out calculus. Many small rural schools offer no rigorous coursework whatsoever. No APs.  40% of US high schools do not offer physics. Equity is a huge problem, and no amount of fudging at the college admissions side is going to help - because the students who received this substandard education aren't prepared for a rigorous university, even if they got in. It's disgraceful.

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Completely agree - but that does not single out calculus. Many small rural schools offer no rigorous coursework whatsoever. No APs.  40% of US high schools do not offer physics. Equity is a huge problem, and no amount of fudging at the college admissions side is going to help - because the students who received this substandard education aren't prepared for a rigorous university, even if they got in. It's disgraceful.

40% don’t offer physics? 😱

That’s just unbelievable. 
 

[kokotg]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Shrug. Can't get too worked out about that. The tippy top schools can have their pick of outstanding students. So they're using calculus as one of the markers to determine who excels academically. Still, calculus is not rocket science, so it's not ludicrous to expect a humanities major who wants a spot at a top uni to jump through this hoop. (In German high school, calculus 1 used to be mandatory for all college bound students irrespective of major - it was part of the college readiness examination.)

Does a history major need to have calculus? No. But if a school wants students to demonstrate that they are extraordinary among other excellent students, it makes sense to put the bar high across all subjects. Or he can excel in some other way. 

Most colleges accept most students. The majority of colleges don't care if you have calculus or not. Nobody has to apply to Harvard.

I guess my beef with it is that there are other advanced maths that would be more helpful to a humanities major, and they're discouraged from taking them if they plan to apply to selective colleges. But then it's also true that AP stats is easier than AP calc, so that's where I'm not sure what the solution is. 

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

I guess my beef with it is that there are other advanced maths that would be more helpful to a humanities major, and they're discouraged from taking them if they plan to apply to selective colleges. But then it's also true that AP stats is easier than AP calc, so that's where I'm not sure what the solution is. 

Calculus based statistics 🙂 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I guess my beef with it is that there are other advanced maths that would be more helpful to a humanities major, and they're discouraged from taking them if they plan to apply to selective colleges. But then it's also true that AP stats is easier than AP calc, so that's where I'm not sure what the solution is. 

IMO, the purpose of highschool is to receive a well rounded general education. Anything that is specifically needed for the degree, they can learn in college. I wouldn't tailor highschool to what would be useful for their degree.

There is no reason the history major who has taken calc in highschool to demonstrate that he can take the most rigorous coursework cannot take stats in college.

Edited February 14, 2022 by regentrude

[kokotg]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Calculus based statistics 🙂 

That's what DH said...but that doesn't help if you're trying to pick between calculus and stats for senior year. I'm sure the college board could expect more out of students for stats without requiring calc as a pre-req...but it's ingrained in the standard course sequence that stats is for kids who struggled in pre-calc and aren't up for calculus. 

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

IMO, the purpose of highschool is to receive a well rounded general education. Anything that is specifically needed for the degree, they can learn in college. There is no reason the history major who has taken calc in highschool to demonstrate that he can take the most rigorous coursework cannot take stats in college.

Certainly. But many/most non-stem kids who have any AP math credit probably won't take any math in college. And I think stats is something that it's good to have just to be a good citizen of the world, whether or not it's required for a degree. 

 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, kokotg said:

But the report is about how admissions officers acknowledge that they do favor students who take calculus and how many of them acknowledge it's a problem... “We consider what is available to a student. No penalty if calculus is not offered.” (emphasis mine)...

... I watched my kid with a 4.0UW/1550 and multiple university or AP classes in every core subject get waitlisted at 8 schools. If my 10th grader wants to have a good shot at those same schools, I'm not going to tell them, "no one will care if you don't take calculus" because all evidence is that that's simply not the case, whether I think it should be or not...

The article also stated in multiple places, including a direct quotation from an admissions officer that calculus is NOT required to get into most colleges, AND that only 19% of high school grads HAVE taken calculus.

However, I get it. @regentrude said above, if its the selective/competitive schools use Calculus as a weed-out tool, and those are the schools that your student wants to attend or would best be served by, then, great! It sounds like decision is made. Calculus it is, and not Statistics. 

Alas, yes, that's just life. For every path we DO choose, there are other paths that can NOT be simultaneously chosen and must be left behind. In this case it sounds like choosing Calculus means leaving behind Statistics to have a better shot at the school you're looking at for your student.

Unsolicited info coming up here that you can skip, in case this was just a "vent thread" and aren't interested in pursuing this trail  😉 BUT...

Maybe use the next 1.5 years doing some research into additional options for funding college, which would in turn open up your course selection for the rest of high school for your student. 

Some ideas:
- live at home, attend the local in-town university, and look into scholarships for that school
- 2 years at the community college, transfer and finish the last 2 years at a lower-cost in-state university
- attend a tuition free college
- look into the possibility of an online degree program
- while in high school, student starts working at a company that has a tuition reimbursement program and branches in many states
- spend far less in tuition to earn a good-paying 2-year AAS degree in a field that pays well, OR, apprenticeship and earn while learning a trade; later on, after parent financial info is no longer required, and some money has been earned/saved, go back to school and earn the Humanities degree of interest (which may or may not lead to a stable job with decent pay -- sadly, we're still in that stage of the economy where the best that many people with a Humanities degree can land are low-paying jobs)

Another trend to keep an eye on: currently, enrollment at colleges and universities is down by over 1 million students. If that trend continues to hold, by the time your son is ready to apply to college, there may be more scholarships, grants, and free $$ out there for those who DO want to attend college, so a highly selective/competitive school might NOT have to be your only option for big $$.

Just musing out loud. 😉 

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

 

Unsolicited info coming up here that you can skip, in case this was just a "vent thread" and aren't interested in pursuing this trail  😉 BUT...
 

Not so much venting as saying, "hey, this is an issue I've noticed, and it's interesting to see this big report talk about it and about creative alternatives some schools are exploring." I'm not outraged that my kid will probably take calculus instead of statistics or anything; I just think he would be better served by statistics, and I think it's unfortunate that there aren't better, more forward-looking options in the standard high school math sequence for non STEM students who are aiming for selective colleges.

As far as financing college, we are lucky in that our in-state publics are affordable for us thanks to lottery funded tuition grants, should he choose to go that route (as my current senior might, depending on where else he's accepted). But I think a small LAC would likely be a better fit for my 10th grader, and I'd like him to have that option if he wants it (and so, yes, I'll advise calculus over stats to up the odds). I'm a pretty big proponent of making sure high achieving, low income students are aware of how many needs-met colleges are out there; it's an incredible option for kids who can get into them, and I think many families, particularly of first generation kids, don't realize they're out there. For low income kids, a needs-met college might well be cheaper than the community college to public in-state path (and might well open up more opportunities). But a lot of families don't know that there's anything out there past community colleges and big public universities, or they think that every needs-met school is Harvard, when plenty of them are also Bard or Oberlin or Macalester (i.e. acceptance rates of 30-40% instead of 5%). 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Not so much venting as saying, "hey, this is an issue I've noticed, and it's interesting to see this big report talk about it and about creative alternatives some schools are exploring." I'm not outraged that my kid will probably take calculus instead of statistics or anything; I just think he would be better served by statistics, and I think it's unfortunate that there aren't better, more forward-looking options in the standard high school math sequence for non STEM students who are aiming for selective colleges.

As far as financing college, we are lucky in that our in-state publics are affordable for us thanks to lottery funded tuition grants, should he choose to go that route (as my current senior might, depending on where else he's accepted). But I think a small LAC would likely be a better fit for my 10th grader, and I'd like him to have that option if he wants it (and so, yes, I'll advise calculus over stats to up the odds). I'm a pretty big proponent of making sure high achieving, low income students are aware of how many needs-met colleges are out there; it's an incredible option for kids who can get into them, and I think many families, particularly of first generation kids, don't realize they're out there. For low income kids, a needs-met college might well be cheaper than the community college to public in-state path (and might well open up more opportunities). But a lot of families don't know that there's anything out there past community colleges and big public universities, or they think that every needs-met school is Harvard, when plenty of them are also Bard or Oberlin or Macalester (i.e. acceptance rates of 30-40% instead of 5%). 

I would think LACs would be where having calculus would matter less for kids who aren’t proclaiming their love of STEM. 🙂 

I do find Lewelma’s description of New Zealand system where stats is a solid alternative pathway to math super interesting.

 

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

I guess my beef with it is that there are other advanced maths that would be more helpful to a humanities major, and they're discouraged from taking them if they plan to apply to selective colleges. But then it's also true that AP stats is easier than AP calc, so that's where I'm not sure what the solution is. 

My kingdom for a financial modeling excel based class. If we are making wishlists for our mostly humanities kiddos 😉

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

Certainly. But many/most non-stem kids who have any AP math credit probably won't take any math in college. And I think stats is something that it's good to have just to be a good citizen of the world, whether or not it's required for a degree. 

 

The good news seems to be, at a couple LACs I’m looking at, you need stats for almost any major. 👍 This seems to be independent of most math prerequisites which seems to be, for non stem kids, Calc 1. 

[Farrar]

The thing is, calculus will also make a student more competitive for those 40% acceptance schools. Or for their stage flagships. And that includes in the humanities. I mean, yes, there are schools where it won't be an issue. And yes, you can show rigor in other ways. But I see it so often that a kid got that 8th grade algebra head start, didn't have a particular direction but did pretty well across the board, got a bit of rigor in one area or two but not so much that it's going to blow anyone away on its own, has okay test scores but not super stellar... So how are they going to show they won at the school game? AP Calculus AB is probably going to be a part of a good strategy for applying to colleges whether it's really the right math class for that kid or not. And if they choose not to take it and go AP Stats instead, then they are putting themselves at a disadvantage. Which is not right. But is also true and many people know it.

ETA: I have just as much of a problem with funneling math and science kids through AP Lit and APUSH, which is also all wrong. I would argue those have a little more potential applicability to more long term courses of study and life, but still not enough to push doing them at the highest level if there are other places to show rigor. But again, if it's an option and you don't do it, you're at a disadvantage.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Farrar

[MEmama]

DS took AP Calc AB and DE Stats his junior year, and Calc 2 through WPI over the summer. He’s a stem kid so that kind of rigor was pretty standard or expected, I think, given the competitive schools and major he wanted to apply for. 
 

OTOH he opted to not take AP lit. In no universe would it have made sense for him to struggle through that course and drag his gpa down; skating through general English didn’t hinder his university prospects at all (and helped boost his confidence). The majority of his friends were also stem kids and most opted to forgo AP lit for the same reason— better to put their efforts into taking maths at the college than suffer through a class that wouldn’t benefit them. They were all admitted to Ivys and other top tier schools, so skipping AP lit clearly didn’t hinder them. 
 

I wouldn’t encourage a humanities student to double up on maths, but to take the most rigorous courses that make sense for them. From what we’ve seen, admissions recognizes that most students— even the top tier— can’t concentrate on all the things, even if they do have them available.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

An effort in Virginia to revise state math curriculum into multiple pathways that each had rigorous options but were not all headed towards calculus met with loud opposition from some quarters, as if the parents thought that their student would be personally disadvantaged by the existence of other options.

On the other hand, I think some of the opposition should have been anticipated. There was not discussion in the proposed pathways initiative, for example of how sought after colleges like University of Virginia or Virginia Tech would consider applications from students who didn't choose the calculus pathway. The pathways presentation talked about the value of statistics and other coursework for nursing students as one of their models, but didn't address if a student would get into the highly competitive UVA nursing program without calculus.

And yet, the decision about who gets to study to become and engineer is often based in a math tracking choice made in middle school. That should not be the pivotal moment, imho.

[kokotg]

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

ETA: I have just as much of a problem with funneling math and science kids through AP Lit and APUSH, which is also all wrong. I would argue those have a little more potential applicability to more long term courses of study and life, but still not enough to push doing them at the highest level if there are other places to show rigor. But again, if it's an option and you don't do it, you're at a disadvantage.

lol--it perhaps says a lot about my bias that my immediate impulse was "but that's different!" Although, to be fair (of me to me) I'm not really advocating LESS math or even less difficult math for kids who are aiming for selective colleges...just more choices about higher math. Kind of like AP lit vs AP lang perhaps. I don't think there's any career field where learning to understand and structure arguments won't help you, but I don't get the impression that AP lit is considered far superior to AP lang in the same way calc is privileged over stats, even though the test is objectively easier. 

[Farrar]

28 minutes ago, kokotg said:

lol--it perhaps says a lot about my bias that my immediate impulse was "but that's different!" Although, to be fair (of me to me) I'm not really advocating LESS math or even less difficult math for kids who are aiming for selective colleges...just more choices about higher math. Kind of like AP lit vs AP lang perhaps. I don't think there's any career field where learning to understand and structure arguments won't help you, but I don't get the impression that AP lit is considered far superior to AP lang in the same way calc is privileged over stats, even though the test is objectively easier. 

Actually, the AP Lit test is widely considered to be more difficult than the AP Lang test. I'm not sure how it could be objectively easier or harder - the scores are a function of the students who take the test and it's not the same groups. But even with that in mind, the score averages are much lower on AP Lit and that's despite the fact that more students take AP Lang.

 

[Ting Tang]

15 hours ago, regentrude said:

Completely agree - but that does not single out calculus. Many small rural schools offer no rigorous coursework whatsoever. No APs.  40% of US high schools do not offer physics. Equity is a huge problem, and no amount of fudging at the college admissions side is going to help - because the students who received this substandard education aren't prepared for a rigorous university, even if they got in. It's disgraceful.

I live in a rural area, and this is my concern. Education is subpar compared to what I has access to in the 1990s. When I pointed out the problems with our k-8 school, it brought out the narcissistic and offended parents and teachers. They are satisfied with it. 

[kokotg]

24 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Actually, the AP Lit test is widely considered to be more difficult than the AP Lang test. I'm not sure how it could be objectively easier or harder - the scores are a function of the students who take the test and it's not the same groups. But even with that in mind, the score averages are much lower on AP Lit and that's despite the fact that more students take AP Lang.

 

oops, yes--I worded it badly--I meant AP lit is harder than AP lang, basing it on scores (but does not seem to have the same reputation as being indisputably the more rigorous choice like calc does).

[Farrar]

29 minutes ago, kokotg said:

oops, yes--I worded it badly--I meant AP lit is harder than AP lang, basing it on scores (but does not seem to have the same reputation as being indisputably the more rigorous choice like calc does).

Oh yeah, I see. Yeah, it does a little bit. AP Lit and AP Euro are definitely seen as the "harder" humanities exams. And then the rarer ones like AP Comp Gov and AP Art History have a little extra cache attached. Everyone knows both AP Art exams and the AP Music Theory exam are really tough. But it's not the same because humanities doesn't have a direct sequence. I think that's the thing math has that other subjects don't so much. Science a little bit... but not even on the same level. And I don't know how you get around that with admissions folks.

I agree with Sebastian(a lady)'s point too - not just in Virginia, but in other states like California, when they've proposed changing the math sequence, people freak out and no one seems to know what to say about how those students will compete in admissions. So where's the incentive to change it, even if it should be changed? There isn't a good one.

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

 

I agree with Sebastian(a lady)'s point too - not just in Virginia, but in other states like California, when they've proposed changing the math sequence, people freak out and no one seems to know what to say about how those students will compete in admissions. So where's the incentive to change it, even if it should be changed? There isn't a good one.

Yes, for sure. I guess a lot of it is a built in problem with trying to make school in general work for a huge population; there's only so much you can do and so much variety you can offer. Dual enrollment gives you a lot more options, but then you run into the problem of wondering how admissions people are going to evaluate classes they're not familiar with or a non-standard sequence. 

[Serenade]

Just a question, here, but is AP Calc the only calc offered in high school?  I mean, if a school offers calc, is it going to be AP Calc?  (Neither of my kids attended public school so I am clueless about this)

[Serenade]

This is an interesting discussion. My kids are beyond this now, but both kids took their high school higher math classes at the CC.  Both took/are taking the path of Associates Degree then transferring to a 4 year school with one kid being a biology major/chem minor and the other transferring into a mechanical engineering program this fall.   My son who is the bio major was required to take Calc for his degree, and he did well, but he told me that the basic stats class he had back at the CC has been way more valuable in his bio classes than the Calc class ever will be.  Which makes me wonder, why doesn't the bio degree require stats instead of calc?  Stats is encouraged, but it's not required. 

[Dmmetler]

9 minutes ago, Serenade said:

This is an interesting discussion. My kids are beyond this now, but both kids took their high school higher math classes at the CC.  Both took/are taking the path of Associates Degree then transferring to a 4 year school with one kid being a biology major/chem minor and the other transferring into a mechanical engineering program this fall.   My son who is the bio major was required to take Calc for his degree, and he did well, but he told me that the basic stats class he had back at the CC has been way more valuable in his bio classes than the Calc class ever will be.  Which makes me wonder, why doesn't the bio degree require stats instead of calc?  Stats is encouraged, but it's not required. 

That's school dependent. The LAC L attends requires statistics for bio majors (including Public Health/Pre-Med and Neuroscience). Having said that, the course required is Calculus based, and I'm guessing there aren't many STEM majors there who haven't had calculus in high school, so it might simply be that with most kids coming in with calculus vs Stats, it makes more sense to make Statistics the required first semester math class. 

[Dmmetler]

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Oh yeah, I see. Yeah, it does a little bit. AP Lit and AP Euro are definitely seen as the "harder" humanities exams. And then the rarer ones like AP Comp Gov and AP Art History have a little extra cache attached. Everyone knows both AP Art exams and the AP Music Theory exam are really tough. But it's not the same because humanities doesn't have a direct sequence. I think that's the thing math has that other subjects don't so much. Science a little bit... but not even on the same level. And I don't know how you get around that with admissions folks.

I agree with Sebastian(a lady)'s point too - not just in Virginia, but in other states like California, when they've proposed changing the math sequence, people freak out and no one seems to know what to say about how those students will compete in admissions. So where's the incentive to change it, even if it should be changed? There isn't a good one.

When we went to the state Math/Science education conference in 2019, the new curriculum framework for TN had outlined a Calculus path and a statistics path, with the idea being that STEM bound students need calculus, but everyone else (humanities and non-college bound) would be better served with a path that led to Stats. It makes sense to me, but I'm willing to BET that basically all college bound students end up taking calculus, even if they have no desire to do anything requiring math ever again. 

The same has been true with efforts (by college professors and industry chemists) to create a single course Chemistry class for high schoolers which would teach the understanding of chemistry needed for everyday life, including a lot more biochem and organic chem, but less math, balancing equations, etc. For the most part, it has not been adopted as intended (which would make it a more standard first high school chem course for all but the students who are advanced in math and STEM-bound)-at best, it's been adopted as a "non-college bound" course, and seen as not being an option for college bound kids, and, over time, has had to be adapted to be much more like a standard class (and therefore less useful) due to state standards. 

[EmilyGF]

My experience with public high school is that every class that isn't seen as a pre-req for something else gets watered down over time until it is a shadow of its former, possibly excellent, self. My kids have stopped taking classes that aren't AP or pre-reqs. So, an interesting general chemistry class that is seen as the final chemistry class students might take will be made easier and easier until it ceases to be interesting or useful. Hence the draw to the rigor of calculus that is taken by future engineers instead of financial math taken by humanities majors.

Goodness, my science/math CS/bio major kid is taking AP Lit next year because his other English classes have been such a disappointment. This is my kid who doesn't even like fiction. It was his choice. To quote him, "If I take AP Lit, I'll learn something. I don't think I'll learn anything in English 4; I haven't in English 3." This is at a top-5 in state public high school.

Emily

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Serenade said:

Just a question, here, but is AP Calc the only calc offered in high school?  I mean, if a school offers calc, is it going to be AP Calc?  (Neither of my kids attended public school so I am clueless about this)

Basically, yes. Calculus is college level material. I'm not a math expert, but as I understand it, if you're going to teach calculus, you're going to cover at least the majority of the syllabus for AP Calculus AB, so you may as well teach it. So it's not like, say, US history where you could teach a version that's AP and a version that's not. Note that there are two AP's - Calculus AB and Calculus BC. AB is the shorter syllabus. BC covers everything in AB and more.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

When we went to the state Math/Science education conference in 2019, the new curriculum framework for TN had outlined a Calculus path and a statistics path, with the idea being that STEM bound students need calculus, but everyone else (humanities and non-college bound) would be better served with a path that led to Stats. It makes sense to me, but I'm willing to BET that basically all college bound students end up taking calculus, even if they have no desire to do anything requiring math ever again. 

The same has been true with efforts (by college professors and industry chemists) to create a single course Chemistry class for high schoolers which would teach the understanding of chemistry needed for everyday life, including a lot more biochem and organic chem, but less math, balancing equations, etc. For the most part, it has not been adopted as intended (which would make it a more standard first high school chem course for all but the students who are advanced in math and STEM-bound)-at best, it's been adopted as a "non-college bound" course, and seen as not being an option for college bound kids, and, over time, has had to be adapted to be much more like a standard class (and therefore less useful) due to state standards. 

I think the the other thing is that when they change things up like that, the families who are more in the know, more likely to be able to hire a college consultant, more likely to have legacy at some school, etc. know to push their collegebound kids into the calculus track because they know there will be a payoff. And the more modestly middle class and lower middle class and certainly all the socioeconomically disadvantaged families don't know and then the school starts funneling more of their collegebound kids through the no calculus path so then they get doubly disadvantaged. 

There's a lot of equity issues around who can take calculus and who can't.

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Basically, yes. Calculus is college level material. I'm not a math expert, but as I understand it, if you're going to teach calculus, you're going to cover at least the majority of the syllabus for AP Calculus AB, so you may as well teach it. So it's not like, say, US history where you could teach a version that's AP and a version that's not. Note that there are two AP's - Calculus AB and Calculus BC. AB is the shorter syllabus. BC covers everything in AB and more.

I don't see any reason that high school calculus must always cover the material of AP Calc AB. Of course you can design a calculus course that does not match the AP syllabus!
You can cover the basic ideas of calc, go slower and build in some algebra and trig review, and OTOH save the time by not covering the mandatory graphing calculator stuff (which is a. idiotic and b. not  comparable to a college course since most college calc classes don't allow calculators.)
Some colleges offer a slower calculus 1 sequence that goes over two semesters, because many incoming students desperately need the algebra/trig review. 

The term "college level material" makes little sense when the level of calc 1 courses offered by different colleges varies so widely.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

My experience with public high school is that every class that isn't seen as a pre-req for something else gets watered down over time until it is a shadow of its former, possibly excellent, self. My kids have stopped taking classes that aren't AP or pre-reqs. So, an interesting general chemistry class that is seen as the final chemistry class students might take will be made easier and easier until it ceases to be interesting or useful. Hence the draw to the rigor of calculus that is taken by future engineers instead of financial math taken by humanities majors.

Goodness, my science/math CS/bio major kid is taking AP Lit next year because his other English classes have been such a disappointment. This is my kid who doesn't even like fiction. It was his choice. To quote him, "If I take AP Lit, I'll learn something. I don't think I'll learn anything in English 4; I haven't in English 3." This is at a top-5 in state public high school.

Emily

Oh this exactly. 
My DS signed up for AP World History next year at PS only because the regular class is so terrible. If he had an interesting alternative, he would have never done a history AP. Basically every class in high school that is an AP alternative is remedial. It’s sad. 
My homeschool kid doesn’t have too many APs and certainly will have a fraction of what his brother will rack up at PS. Now I wonder how hard that’s going to bite him in the behind. 

[NittanyJen]

On 2/14/2022 at 6:44 PM, kokotg said:

That's what DH said...but that doesn't help if you're trying to pick between calculus and stats for senior year. I'm sure the college board could expect more out of students for stats without requiring calc as a pre-req...but it's ingrained in the standard course sequence that stats is for kids who struggled in pre-calc and aren't up for calculus. 

Odd. I have plenty of kids in my AP stats class who already took and passed AP Calc BC who find AP Stats both challenging and interesting. The Math is mechanically pretty straightforward, but the applications and emphasis on interpretation add a lot of interest, and a different dimension than what they do in calc.

[Sneezyone]

6 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Oh this exactly. 
My DS signed up for AP World History next year at PS only because the regular class is so terrible. If he had an interesting alternative, he would have never done a history AP. Basically every class in high school that is an AP alternative is remedial. It’s sad. 
My homeschool kid doesn’t have too many APs and certainly will have a fraction of what his brother will rack up at PS. Now I wonder how hard that’s going to bite him in the behind. 

Our district has four options—developmental, academic, honors and AP/DE. Your experience is your own. I really wish you would stop talking as if that’s the public school norm. It’s the norm where YOU live.

[Roadrunner]

45 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Our district has four options—developmental, academic, honors and AP/DE. Your experience is your own. I really wish you would stop talking as if that’s the public school norm. It’s the norm where YOU live.

I always make it clear that I speak about my school. And I agreed with the different poster about the fact that mine was similar. I always mention my state, and circumstances (demographic and  rural location). If you have an amazing high school (and I have seen some amazing course catalogues from larger districts on east coast), do share. That’s the point of the forum.  🙄

By the way, there is an ignore button. I would be happy if you put me on one.