Vaccine Passports?

[MEmama]

14 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But, those "fixes" come at a cost.  My dd rented an apartment outside the US.  She had to go to the local city office and register where she was living, providing documentation for who she is and exactly who is living with her.  She had an issue becuase she lives in the building Street 12--she is on the second floor-the apartment on the right (there is no apartment number that she knows of).  At the office they asked which apartment and she said on the second floor; the responded that both were empty.  At that point it was clear that the neighbors had not registered where they were living and it was a major issue for them.  

Now DD is in the process of applying for a drivers license in that country.  She filled out all of her paperwork and had her drivers license from the US.  The office wants here proof of residence at that address so that they know that this drivers license was legally given to her.  She has tried to explain that the drivers license shows that was her residence.  They want her to get a stamped, official proof of residence at that address from the city in the US.  They don't understand that doesn't exist.  

There are deifinite advantages of that, but there are disadvantages.  When you have that type of control of knowing who is who and where they are, you can implement things like vaccine passports.  All countries probabsly have some people within the country that are undocumented--but the proportion varies greatly from country to country, and it varies greatly within different regions of the US.  There are multiple and complex reasons for this lack of documentation.  

I’m trying to understand your point, I really am. 

Your example above is one of general bureaucracy; in this case the special fun of living overseas. We’ve lived in a different country and my son currently does, so I get it. But they are not particularly unique circumstances nor insurmountable problems. 

I don’t understand what you are referring to as “fixes” or why updating systems wouldn’t come “at a cost”. I mean, a pretty major role of government is creating systems, of course it costs? 

[Dmmetler]

Vaccines for school admission do have one central repository in my state. When we went to get L's meningitis vaccine and an updated form, the two COVID shots were already there, as were past flu shots. For adults, it might be harder, but I assume that COVID vaccines were probably reported there, too. 

 

The local NBA franchise has announced that proof of vsccination or a negative test within 3 days is required to go to games (college or NBA) and concerts/etc at that arena. I suspect there will be more, not fewer, such declarations in the future. 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m trying to understand your point, I really am. 

Your example above is one of general bureaucracy; in this case the special fun of living overseas. We’ve lived in a different country and my son currently does, so I get it. But they are not particularly unique circumstances nor insurmountable problems. 

I don’t understand what you are referring to as “fixes” or why updating systems wouldn’t come “at a cost”. I mean, a pretty major role of government is creating systems, of course it costs? 

I used the term "fixes" in response to your saying that the place to fix things was at the voting both. The costs are not simply monetary costs; they are in costs of privacy, indpendent decision making, civil liberties, etc.

My example was not simply about bureacracy and the issues of living overseas; it was about the type of data recording that is needed by the government to know who is where.  DD's neighbors were in legal trouble for not reporting where they were living and with whom they were living; they are citizens of that country.   This is not without controversy there becuase this helped detect where Jews were living at one time.  In my lifetime in plaes in the US, it would have been illegal for a white to live with a black spouse.  Hopefully, we have moved beyond those types of situations, but we are not talking about some dystopian, hypothetical situation in which the govenrment might use information in a way we find distasteful.  I am hopeful that we could recognize and stop any government misuse/abuse, but I can understand why others question this.  I also understand why some question whether it is in the best interest of undocument individuals currently in the US. 

We would not have to have the government recording who is where to have vaccine passports.  But, we cannot have meaningful vaccine passports when people can go to whatever medical provider they want who chooses how to record the data, how much data to collect about the person getting the vaccine, how carefully to insure they even know who is getting a vaccine, etc. which is how the vaccine rollout in the US has been--I can have opinions of whether or not I think that was a good way to rollout the vaccine, but the reality is that is how we did in the US.

 

[Bootsie]

16 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m trying to understand your point, I really am. 

Your example above is one of general bureaucracy; in this case the special fun of living overseas. We’ve lived in a different country and my son currently does, so I get it. But they are not particularly unique circumstances nor insurmountable problems. 

I don’t understand what you are referring to as “fixes” or why updating systems wouldn’t come “at a cost”. I mean, a pretty major role of government is creating systems, of course it costs? 

Another "cost" to some people is that they would have been excluded from getting a vaccine when they wanted to.  All of those people who chose to lie about their child's age because they were close to the cutoff would not have been able to get away with that.  How much you or I personally think that is a cost may be different, but for some people it would have been a high cost. It would have also prevented people who had a J&J vaccine who wanted to follow up with a Pfizer or a Moderna from being able to do so.  

[HSMWB]

11 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

 

The local NBA franchise has announced that proof of vsccination or a negative test within 3 days is required to go to games (college or NBA) and concerts/etc at that arena. I suspect there will be more, not fewer, such declarations in the future. 

Is there a difference if a particular business wants to make this a policy vs. the government (and what level city, county, state, national) saying that the business MUST have this policy??  How much does this really help with the overall level of safety (vs people accessing their own personal risk and attending or not) when we know that vaccinated people can and do in fact still spread Covid?

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Another "cost" to some people is that they would have been excluded from getting a vaccine when they wanted to.  All of those people who chose to lie about their child's age because they were close to the cutoff would not have been able to get away with that.  How much you or I personally think that is a cost may be different, but for some people it would have been a high cost. It would have also prevented people who had a J&J vaccine who wanted to follow up with a Pfizer or a Moderna from being able to do so.  

Idk, I still don't understand the various points you are trying to make. Sorry.
 

I guess my overarching sense is don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure there are hurdles, but every country has them. If they can figure it out, we can too if we want to. I know a lot of Americans don’t appreciate hearing this but it bears repeating: we are not special. Our country’s problems, flaws and issues are not unique. All the bickering in the world won’t change that fact, but it will get in the way of making progress.

I don’t think I have anything else to add to this particular spin-off conversation so I’m bowing out for now. Good luck to your daughter with finding the paperwork she needs.

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

My understanding is that this is different than simply adding a vaccine series to a medical record.  Yes, medical ifnormation in the US is stored electronically.  But, it is not all stored by a central organization.  I can go to one doctor in the US have something recorded electronically with that doctor; it is not in a central database for other medical professionals to access.  Othere countries have more centralized medical record keeping. 

If you have thousands of different health care providers deciding what they will or will not accept as proof of vaccination, any vaccination passport is going to be useless.  The reason a vaccine passport is worth something is that it is a consistent, authoritative record.  

 

 

There is no reason to believe any information will be stored centrally.
I’m not sure you realize how medical information is currently stored and accessed by medical professionals. With your permission and the appropriate software, your record can be accessed. There are only a few EMR vendors in the entire country. There are existing ways that groups that use the same software can share information with each other provided they have patient consent.

All of these EMR providers can develop vaccine record/passport apps that would import information from their system. I would be shocked if they aren’t already at least in the development, if not testing, phase already.  I know there are already multiple vaccine passport apps on the market independent of the EMR providers. Passports provided by reputable vendors will be recognized as authoritative. That’s how our capitalist healthcare system works. 

Believe it or not everything that is in your medical record is there because a medical professional made a judgement call. It’s what they do for a living. They went to school a really long time to learn how to take care of patients, including how to document care.  They actually take the fact that they can loose their licenses to practice really seriously and the default stance won’t be to fake a medical record just so someone can risk life & those of others by doing something they shouldn’t.  

[Bootsie]

Just now, MEmama said:

Idk, I still don't understand the various points you are trying to make. Sorry.
 

I guess my overarching sense is don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure there are hurdles, but every country has them. If they can figure it out, we can too if we want to. I know a lot of Americans don’t appreciate hearing this but it bears repeating: we are not special. Our country’s problems, flaws and issues are not unique. All the bickering in the world won’t change that fact, but it will get in the way of making progress.

I don’t think I have anything else to add to this particular spin-off conversation so I’m bowing out for now. Good luck to your daughter with finding the paperwork she needs.

No, of course we are not special or unique.  We make choices about how to handle problems.  Other countires make other choices.  These choices have consequences--good and bad.  Often there is no simple, obvious way to do things.  That is what dilemmas are.  Once we make certain choices we cannot simply adopt part of the choices of other countries.  We can't get the good from our choices AND the good from the choices of other countries (without the bad that comes from those countries choices).  We can't just say well Country X can do it so it can be done, without considering the process and cost that Country X has to do it.  We may well then say yes it is worth it to us--but we have to consider the entire picture. 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

There is no reason to believe any information will be stored centrally.
I’m not sure you realize how medical information is currently stored and accessed by medical professionals. With your permission and the appropriate software, your record can be accessed. There are only a few EMR vendors in the entire country. There are existing ways that groups that use the same software can share information with each other provided they have patient consent.

All of these EMR providers can develop vaccine record/passport apps that would import information from their system. I would be shocked if they aren’t already at least in the development, if not testing, phase already.  I know there are already multiple vaccine passport apps on the market independent of the EMR providers. Passports provided by reputable vendors will be recognized as authoritative. That’s how our capitalist healthcare system works. 

Believe it or not everything that is in your medical record is there because a medical professional made a judgement call. It’s what they do for a living. They went to school a really long time to learn how to take care of patients, including how to document care.  They actually take the fact that they can loose their licenses to practice really seriously and the default stance won’t be to fake a medical record just so someone can risk life & those of others by doing something they shouldn’t.  

But at this point you have people who have received vaccines outside of these EMR providers.  How will they be provided an authoritative vaccine passport?

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

But at this point you have people who have received vaccines outside of these EMR providers.  How will they be provided an authoritative vaccine passport?

As I said before, they will have to provide adequate information to a medical professional and that medical professional will make a judgement call on whether or not to enter the information into the EMR for that particular patient. 
 

To help you understand - an EMR is the default way to document care in the US at this point. Providers who don’t have access to one are few & far between & I imagine they already have a method for documentation & transferring info to others. They would be the exception, not the rule. 

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But at this point you have people who have received vaccines outside of these EMR providers.  How will they be provided an authoritative vaccine passport?

I’m going to see my PCP next week. I will take my vaccine card. I’ve had three doses received at two different locations. My PCP will enter the info into my EMR. It’s a widely used software (My Chart). I assume once it’s entered there it would be easy to get a vaccine passport. I know there are many people for whom this scenario won’t work for various reasons. But I think it’s what will enable many to be able to easily get a vaccine passport. 

[TechWife]

36 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Another "cost" to some people is that they would have been excluded from getting a vaccine when they wanted to.  All of those people who chose to lie about their child's age because they were close to the cutoff would not have been able to get away with that.  How much you or I personally think that is a cost may be different, but for some people it would have been a high cost. It would have also prevented people who had a J&J vaccine who wanted to follow up with a Pfizer or a Moderna from being able to do so.  

Everyone in the US that qualifies can get a vaccine at this point. I’m not sure what you mean by it being unavailable. I have no idea what “cost” you are referring to. 

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

I’m going to see my PCP next week. I will take my vaccine card. I’ve had three doses received at two different locations. My PCP will enter the info into my EMR. It’s a widely used software (My Chart). I assume once it’s entered there it would be easy to get a vaccine passport. I know there are many people for whom this scenario won’t work for various reasons. But I think it’s what will enable many to be able to easily get a vaccine passport. 

But this means that your PCP is entering data that you are self-providing.  The quality of the vaccine passport is only good as the quality of the data that is being put into the system.  Self-provided data is not all of a sudden more reliable beause it is entered into an EMR by a PCP.  If we are going to use self-reported data to develop a vaccine passsport, the vaccine passport is no more valuable than having people self-report that they have been vaccinated. 

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, TechWife said:

Everyone in the US that qualifies can get a vaccine at this point. I’m not sure what you mean by it being unavailable. I have no idea what “cost” you are referring to. 

Yes, everyone who QUALIFIES under the government defintion of qualifying can access a vaccination.  There are people who do not qualify under this definition who have chosen to be vaccinated (or vaccinate their children) despite not qualifying.  To those people, not being able to make that choice would be a cost.  

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

No, of course we are not special or unique.  We make choices about how to handle problems.  Other countires make other choices.  These choices have consequences--good and bad.  Often there is no simple, obvious way to do things.  That is what dilemmas are.  Once we make certain choices we cannot simply adopt part of the choices of other countries.  We can't get the good from our choices AND the good from the choices of other countries (without the bad that comes from those countries choices).  We can't just say well Country X can do it so it can be done, without considering the process and cost that Country X has to do it.  We may well then say yes it is worth it to us--but we have to consider the entire picture. 

I think you underestimate the ability, flexibility and willingness to change procedures and adapt expectations that exists among people around the world, including people here in the US.
 

I’m sitting in a solar powered house with an electric car in the garage - you won’t convince me that people can’t or won’t change their minds about culture because that’s just one of the many ways I have done so over the years. I mean - you realize there are people in a series of metal tubes circling the earth hundreds of miles an hour right now? And that as we have this conversation through thin air we are each in our own environments. Amazing stuff we humans can accomplish. I mean that in all sincerity- humans are absolutely amazing. 

[TechWife]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But this means that your PCP is entering data that you are self-providing.  The quality of the vaccine passport is only good as the quality of the data that is being put into the system.  Self-provided data is not all of a sudden more reliable beause it is entered into an EMR by a PCP.  If we are going to use self-reported data to develop a vaccine passsport, the vaccine passport is no more valuable than having people self-report that they have been vaccinated. 

When you go to the doctor and say you have a sore throat, the doctor enters that in your medical record - patient presents with report of sore throat. Bam - there it is -  info you’ve provided is in your medical record. What medicines do you take - great - I’m glad you brought them with you - I’ll have the nurse put them in the system while we talk. Bam - more info you provided is in your medical record. Have you had a flu shot? Pneumonia? Shingles? Covid? When was your last tetanus? Oh - let me take a look at your covid vaccine card. Hmm - lot numbers aren’t formatted like that - let me call the Pfizer md line real quick for more info on this lot oh, don’t bother - you bought this off of the internet? Or, for most of us - Great, thanks for this. The nurse will put this in the system and give it right back to you.  Flu & shingles at the CVS? Let me pull that up real quick - yes , I see it there now. We will make sure it gets into our system to help you keep track. 
 

In areas where cdc cards weren’t provided drs will be able to check reported vaccine dates with area clinics, etc - because somewhere, someone wrote down where & when vaccines were given and those that didn’t document names would again, be the exception, not the rule.

 

 

[TechWife]

15 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Yes, everyone who QUALIFIES under the government defintion of qualifying can access a vaccination.  There are people who do not qualify under this definition who have chosen to be vaccinated (or vaccinate their children) despite not qualifying.  To those people, not being able to make that choice would be a cost.  

What do you mean by cost?? What choice would they have to make? I don’t understand. 

[Pawz4me]

19 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But this means that your PCP is entering data that you are self-providing.  The quality of the vaccine passport is only good as the quality of the data that is being put into the system.  Self-provided data is not all of a sudden more reliable beause it is entered into an EMR by a PCP.  If we are going to use self-reported data to develop a vaccine passsport, the vaccine passport is no more valuable than having people self-report that they have been vaccinated. 

It seems to me that, for whatever reasons, you're really reaching here. Patients self provide data to health practitioners all the time. If I go in next week and am asked if I've had a flu shot and I say "Yes, I got one a couple of weeks ago at CVS" they take my word for it and it gets entered into my record. And this is SO much more than that. I can provide a card that has provider names on it that they will readily recognize (my county health department and Walgreens). It has manufacturer name and batch numbers. Sure they can be faked. But I really doubt significant numbers of people are going to fake one and take it to a health care provider and the health care provider is going to not have some suspicion that it's faked. Is it a foolproof system? Of course not. But it's WAY better than simply taking someone's word that they're vaccinated. 

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To be able to be invited individually for a vaccination appointment would mean that the government would have to know who you are and where you are to invite you.  We have resisted that in the US.  

Why does the government have to be the one giving the invite?Why not an employer holding a clinic for their employees & families?  What if a church secures vaccines and invites neighbors or members to get them? What about a hospital system inviting anyone who lives within a certain zip code? All of those things have really happened. There are dozens upon dozens of ways this could play out without needing the government to have a centralized database. 
 

Also, do you get mail? Does the USPS know where your house is? Isn’t that a centralized data base? Is that a problem? 

Edited September 29, 2021 by TechWife

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I used the term "fixes" in response to your saying that the place to fix things was at the voting both. The costs are not simply monetary costs; they are in costs of privacy, indpendent decision making, civil liberties, etc.

My example was not simply about bureacracy and the issues of living overseas; it was about the type of data recording that is needed by the government to know who is where.  DD's neighbors were in legal trouble for not reporting where they were living and with whom they were living; they are citizens of that country.   This is not without controversy there becuase this helped detect where Jews were living at one time.  In my lifetime in plaes in the US, it would have been illegal for a white to live with a black spouse.  Hopefully, we have moved beyond those types of situations, but we are not talking about some dystopian, hypothetical situation in which the govenrment might use information in a way we find distasteful.  I am hopeful that we could recognize and stop any government misuse/abuse, but I can understand why others question this.  I also understand why some question whether it is in the best interest of undocument individuals currently in the US. 

We would not have to have the government recording who is where to have vaccine passports.  But, we cannot have meaningful vaccine passports when people can go to whatever medical provider they want who chooses how to record the data, how much data to collect about the person getting the vaccine, how carefully to insure they even know who is getting a vaccine, etc. which is how the vaccine rollout in the US has been--I can have opinions of whether or not I think that was a good way to rollout the vaccine, but the reality is that is how we did in the US.

 

I've lived in countries like that. But in the UK, the doctor I choose to register with, the utilities companies, the tax authorities,  the voting authorities, my employer and the companies of which I am a customer know where I am. That's it.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

But, those "fixes" come at a cost.  My dd rented an apartment outside the US.  She had to go to the local city office and register where she was living, providing documentation for who she is and exactly who is living with her.  She had an issue becuase she lives in the building Street 12--she is on the second floor-the apartment on the right (there is no apartment number that she knows of).  At the office they asked which apartment and she said on the second floor; the responded that both were empty.  At that point it was clear that the neighbors had not registered where they were living and it was a major issue for them.  

Now DD is in the process of applying for a drivers license in that country.  She filled out all of her paperwork and had her drivers license from the US.  The office wants here proof of residence at that address so that they know that this drivers license was legally given to her.  She has tried to explain that the drivers license shows that was her residence.  They want her to get a stamped, official proof of residence at that address from the city in the US.  They don't understand that doesn't exist.  

There are deifinite advantages of that, but there are disadvantages.  When you have that type of control of knowing who is who and where they are, you can implement things like vaccine passports.  

I don't understand the relevance of this. I've lived in the UK and France, and my experience is nothing like your daughter's — no registering with the state, no declaring who you live with, no unusual paperwork to get a driver's license. I don't remember having to provide any more proof of residency in the UK than I do in the US (e.g. a bank statement or utility bill with my name and current address). If I moved it would be up to me to inform my healthcare provider of my change of address, just like in the US. If your argument is that the only way to have universal healthcare, or even just a vaccine database, is to have the sort of system you describe for Austria, that is simply not true.

My kids got their childhood vaccines in the UK, and when we moved to the US, I brought their immunization records with me. Their US pediatricians entered the UK data in their records and added their US vaccines, and when we moved to our current state, we had our records transferred. I got my covid vaccines at a Kroger pharmacy and they showed up in my personal portal (MyChart) within days, without my having to show my vaccine card to my doctor. DD got hers at a mass vax clinic and DS got his on campus; they showed up in their MyHealth portals. There's no reason that MyChart and MyHealth couldn't link with an app or something to generate a QR code. The fact that Texas doesn't handle medical records that way doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it can't be accomplished without some huge sacrifice of freedom and privacy.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Corraleno

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

But at this point you have people who have received vaccines outside of these EMR providers.  How will they be provided an authoritative vaccine passport?

I got my vaccination at a mass vax site.  When I next visted my primary care doc, the records were in her system.  Yes, when I signed up for the shot it asked for my primary care doctor's contact info, but it was not some kind of rocket science or nefarious plot.  Just common sense and efficiency.

[KSera]

 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

 I also understand why some question whether it is in the best interest of undocument individuals currently in the US. 

 

I can certainly believe that this is a question for you, but it would be disingenuous to suggest concern about the best interest of undocumented individuals has even the tiniest bit to do with why the majority of people who object to vaccine passes do so. These are largely the same (unvaccinated, anti-mask) people who list undocumented immigrants as one of the biggest reasons we are still struggling with this pandemic 🙄.

1 hour ago, HSMWB said:

How much does this really help with the overall level of safety (vs people accessing their own personal risk and attending or not) when we know that vaccinated people can and do in fact still spread Covid?

I shared yesterday an article suggesting it's making a significant difference. European countries using this model are having a lot of success with it. The fact that vaccinated people have the potential to spread Covid doesn't change the fact that unvaccinated people spread it at a much higher rate, and decreasing that rate of spread is essential in order for us to get on top of this thing. And they are the ones making it so that our health care system is overhwhelmed. Not to mention the fact that it's clear at this point that people are completely lousy at assessing their own personal risk level.

I still can't get over people thinking that it's a more fair system for the majority to stay home so that the minority doesn't have to take any responsibility for their decisions. In what other circumstance would you really think that was just?

[bookbard]

4 hours ago, HSMWB said:

if it is required for admittance- is there a way for exemptions to allow allow the person admission (natural immunity, medical, religious, etc,)?

In NSW (state of Australia) right now you have to carry with you a letter from your Dr (in fact I think it's a form) if you can't wear a mask for medical reasons. I would assume it would be the same if you can't be vaccinated for medical reasons (prior immunity would be considered a medical reason within a few months, 6 I think). There are no religious exemptions at present for vaccination - there was an article about it, there used to be exemptions for Christian Scientists but even they are getting vaccinated now apparently. There were no other religious group where anti-vax was a thing, so religious exemptions were meaningless.

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Idk, I still don't understand the various points you are trying to make. Sorry.
 

I guess my overarching sense is don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure there are hurdles, but every country has them. If they can figure it out, we can too if we want to. I know a lot of Americans don’t appreciate hearing this but it bears repeating: we are not special. Our country’s problems, flaws and issues are not unique. All the bickering in the world won’t change that fact, but it will get in the way of making progress.

I don’t think I have anything else to add to this particular spin-off conversation so I’m bowing out for now. Good luck to your daughter with finding the paperwork she needs.

Yes but Europe helped the Holocaust by recording the Jews.  Let us say we get the centralization of info you want. Trump wins in 2024. Would you be comfortable with what he could do if he knew where every illegal alien lived in this country?  In thinking of scenarios like this. I may be comfortable if “my” person is in power, but how would I feel if the other person was? There are so many nefarious ways the info could be used.

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

I got my vaccination at a mass vax site.  When I next visted my primary care doc, the records were in her system.  Yes, when I signed up for the shot it asked for my primary care doctor's contact info, but it was not some kind of rocket science or nefarious plot.  Just common sense and efficiency.

I was as well, but no one asked me for any information other than my driver’s lisence. 

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes but Europe helped the Holocaust by recording the Jews.  Let us say we get the centralization of info you want. Trump wins in 2024. Would you be comfortable with what he could do if he knew where every illegal alien lived in this country?  In thinking of scenarios like this. I may be comfortable if “my” person is in power, but how would I feel if the other person was? There are so many nefarious ways the info could be used.

Who is asking for centralized info? No one.

This is a vaccine record. No one is asking the location of every undocumented person. In any case, did you know we ask people who are undocumented to complete the census? This is why there isn't a citizenship question on the form by default (long form, I'm not sure about, but it isn't on the short form).

You do realize that the post office knows where you live? That they have a database containing that information? Do you know that they take pictures of all the mail now? - You can get the photos sent to you every day. Mail reveals a lot about a person. Even in this day of electronic billing, a remarkable amount of information is still sent through the USPS.

Edited September 29, 2021 by TechWife

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Who is asking for centralized info? No one.

This is a vaccine record. No one is asking the location of every undocumented person. In any case, did you know we ask people who are undocumented to complete the census? This is why there isn't a citizenship question on the form by default (long form, I'm not sure about, but it isn't on the short form).

You do realize that the post office knows where you live? That they have a database containing that information? Do you know that they take pictures of all the mail now? - You can get the photos sent to you every day. Mail reveals a lot about a person. Even in this day of electronic billing, a remarkable amount of information is still sent through the USPS.

I was responding to the poster who believed the United States should have centralized information. No, we don't have it right now. She said we were not special. No we are not, but Germany, Poland, etc. paid a very high price.  And yes, we middle class or higher people are tracked everywhere. But there are a ton of poor who are not and not just undocumented. It is why our state had a fight over whether or not you need to have ID to vote.  See whether or not you think having a database depends on the issue: voting-no, immunization- yes.

I no longer belong to a party. I don't have a clue which one I will vote for as both are heartless and hypocritical and no one REALLY seems to care for the poor. They are just a pawn for power. I don't think I am even going to vote because it doesn't matter anymore. None of them have a soul.

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I was as well, but no one asked me for any information other than my driver’s lisence. 

So, they know who you are, how old you are, what you look like & where you live - the right software program can match that info to a medical record in a heartbeat. So, if a vaccine passport became a reality, a software program can easily import that information into an EMR by matching your name, birth date & address. If you don't have an existing EMR, that same software program can create one for you. You can then go to any provider and give them permission to view this record, or allow an app access in order to create a vaccine passport.  None of this is rocket science.

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

So, they know who you are, how old you are, what you look like & where you live - the right software program can match that info to a medical record in a heartbeat. So, if a vaccine passport became a reality, a software program can easily import that information into an EMR by matching your name, birth date & address. If you don't have an existing EMR, that same software program can create one for you. You can then go to any provider and give them permission to view this record, or allow an app access in order to create a vaccine passport.  None of this is rocket science.

I know that. But I went for my annual check-up and they had no record of my getting the shots. So it isn't being done.

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

See whether or not you think having a database depends on the issue: voting-no, immunization- yes.

I think we should have a database of voters, yes. And we do. People shouldn't have to pay for an ID in order to vote. They shouldn't have to pay to have a way to prove their immunization status, either. So voting-yes, immunization-yes.

[TechWife]

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I was responding to the poster who believed the United States should have centralized information. No, we don't have it right now. She said we were not special. No we are not, but Germany, Poland, etc. paid a very high price.  And yes, we middle class or higher people are tracked everywhere. But there are a ton of poor who are not and not just undocumented. It is why our state had a fight over whether or not you need to have ID to vote.  See whether or not you think having a database depends on the issue: voting-no, immunization- yes.

I no longer belong to a party. I don't have a clue which one I will vote for as both are heartless and hypocritical and no one REALLY seems to care for the poor. They are just a pawn for power. I don't think I am even going to vote because it doesn't matter anymore. None of them have a soul.

You were responding to MEmama - who said no such thing. She stated she was in favor of vaccine passports, but said nothing about a centralized data base. IIRC, she mentioned that other countries do this and there isn't anything special about us that would prevent us from doing the same. I'm in agreement with her - there is nothing interfering with vaccine passports. Just because I think that doesn't mean that I think we need a centralized vaccine database or anything else centralized more so than it is now.

Whether or not I think there needs to be a database based on any given issue is a red herring, because if you read my posts thoroughly, I never mention a centralized database at all. In fact, I go to great lengths to explain how this can be done without government involvement.

Believe it or not, vaccines aren't a political issue. I have no idea why you are trying to make it into one & I'd prefer the conversation not turn in that direction as it will get the thread locked.

[TechWife]

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I know that. But I went for my annual check-up and they had no record of my getting the shots. So it isn't being done.

Not sure how this is relevant to the longer conversation. People provided evidence that it is being done, I explained another way it can be done - using the information that they already have about you. If it isn't being done in your state, it's because the people who live there don't want it to be done, not because it can't be done.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

What do you mean by cost?? What choice would they have to make? I don’t understand. 

I am using the word "cost" as a synonym for "con" or "negative" or "downside".  Most people who find something that limits their choices or ability to make a decision as a "con."  If, for example, the government said I can homeschool but I have to provide proof that I am using one of the three approved math programs and cannot freely choose any program I think is best for my child, I would view that as a "con" or "cost" of that regulation.  Sure, there would be "pros" or "benefits" of the regulation.  It would ensure that a child was provided one of the approved math programs, which I may think is a strong benefit.  The parents that want to make another choice would see this as a negative. Parents who want to vaccinate their 11-year old before 11-year olds are qualified would find it a "con" to have a system which knows exactly who is getting a vaccine.  

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, TechWife said:

You were responding to MEmama - who said no such thing. She stated she was in favor of vaccine passports, but said nothing about a centralized data base. IIRC, she mentioned that other countries do this and there isn't anything special about us that would prevent us from doing the same. I'm in agreement with her - there is nothing interfering with vaccine passports. Just because I think that doesn't mean that I think we need a centralized vaccine database or anything else centralized more so than it is now.

Whether or not I think there needs to be a database based on any given issue is a red herring, because if you read my posts thoroughly, I never mention a centralized database at all. In fact, I go to great lengths to explain how this can be done without government involvement.

Believe it or not, vaccines aren't a political issue. I have no idea why you are trying to make it into one & I'd prefer the conversation not turn in that direction as it will get the thread locked.

I am so confused. I believe on vaccines. I believe businesses and schools should have a right to require them.  It seemed like people were saying that . I do NOT believe in a centralized database.  That is what I thought people like Bootsie were talking about.

But we get tge results if all of mom’s tests tomorrow so i may not be thinking straight.

You nay not wNt vaccines to be political. But tgey are. I don’t understand why, bit both parties SUCK.  

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I am using the word "cost" as a synonym for "con" or "negative" or "downside".  Most people who find something that limits their choices or ability to make a decision as a "con."  If, for example, the government said I can homeschool but I have to provide proof that I am using one of the three approved math programs and cannot freely choose any program I think is best for my child, I would view that as a "con" or "cost" of that regulation.  Sure, there would be "pros" or "benefits" of the regulation.  It would ensure that a child was provided one of the approved math programs, which I may think is a strong benefit.  The parents that want to make another choice would see this as a negative. Parents who want to vaccinate their 11-year old before 11-year olds are qualified would find it a "con" to have a system which knows exactly who is getting a vaccine.  

There are pros and cons to everything. Homeschooling regulations are a good example. However, what would someone who has already been vaccinated be giving up if they had a vaccine passport?

Parents who break the rules shouldn't be coddled &  any cons they may or may not experience from doing so shouldn't be taken into consideration when further developing best practices re: vaccine documentation.

[TexasProud]

5 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Not sure how this is relevant to the longer conversation. People provided evidence that it is being done, I explained another way it can be done - using the information that they already have about you. If it isn't being done in your state, it's because the people who live there don't want it to be done, not because it can't be done.

But SHOULD it be done???? As I said, I don’t wsnt to repeat the Holocaust and I no longer believe either party would prevent something like that in the US. 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

It seems to me that, for whatever reasons, you're really reaching here. Patients self provide data to health practitioners all the time. If I go in next week and am asked if I've had a flu shot and I say "Yes, I got one a couple of weeks ago at CVS" they take my word for it and it gets entered into my record. And this is SO much more than that. I can provide a card that has provider names on it that they will readily recognize (my county health department and Walgreens). It has manufacturer name and batch numbers. Sure they can be faked. But I really doubt significant numbers of people are going to fake one and take it to a health care provider and the health care provider is going to not have some suspicion that it's faked. Is it a foolproof system? Of course not. But it's WAY better than simply taking someone's word that they're vaccinated. 

Why is it way better to take someone's word that they have been vaccinated and then put it on a record than just take someone's word?   If the card you have is sufficient to show that you are vaccinated, why would anything else be needed?  Perhaps your health practitioner would recognize the provider names on your card, but that does not mean that is the case for everyone.  When you are running mass vaccination clinics, not asking for IDs, not having people get out of an automobile, etc. the data is simply innaccurate.  I doubt that most health practitioners would recognize the "provider name" on my CDC card.  

 

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

I am so confused. I believe on vaccines. I believe businesses and schools should have a right to require them.  It seemed like people were saying that . I do NOT believe in a centralized database.  That is what I thought people like Bootsie were talking about.

But we get tge results if all of mom’s tests tomorrow so i may not be thinking straight.

You nay not wNt vaccines to be political. But tgey are. I don’t understand why, bit both parties SUCK.  

People aren't talking about a centralized database as a requirement. We are talking about vaccine passports and the various ways that they can be managed. She doesn't want a centralized database and if I am understanding her correctly, she is having trouble figuring out what having a vaccine passport would look like without one. I don't think I've seen anyone on this thread push for a centralized database, while many have been in favor of a vaccine passport.

I hope your mom's test results info is informative - I totally understand how stressful that can be.

I think we as citizens decide if something is political. We don't have to bite every piece of bait that is dangled in front of us by politicians, the media or anyone else. When something that shouldn't be political becomes political, like vaccines, I really think it's because we have allowed it. Personally, I am doing my best not to consider politics in regards to my position on vaccines. I don't know if I've been perfect, but I've spent a lot of time chasing down reputable sources and verifying all the quotes that are attributed to various people.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Why does the government have to be the one giving the invite?Why not an employer holding a clinic for their employees & families?  What if a church secures vaccines and invites neighbors or members to get them? What about a hospital system inviting anyone who lives within a certain zip code? All of those things have really happened. There are dozens upon dozens of ways this could play out without needing the government to have a centralized database. 
 

Also, do you get mail? Does the USPS know where your house is? Isn’t that a centralized data base? Is that a problem? 

Given that the majority of the mail that comes to my house is not for people who live at my address I don't think that is a good example of who knows who is living where.  

I was specifically responding to a poster's comment that where she lived, there was some certainty about who was receiving a vaccine because that person was specifically invited to receive a vaccine.  If a church secures vaccines and invites neighbors to get them, do they know who is actually showing up to get them and recording those in a database that can be turned over to someone else?  Yes, these things have really happened--and that is the problem of trying to get people to prove their vaccine at this point.  Some of these places did not ask for an ID.  Some recorded items one way; some another.  This allowed us to get vaccines in more arms more quickly and to get it arms of people who do not have documentation. 

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But SHOULD it be done???? As I said, I don’t wsnt to repeat the Holocaust and I no longer believe either party would prevent something like that in the US. 

You mean EMR's? The sharing of medical information? I mean, I guess that conversation might be worthwhile on some level, but I really think that barn door is closed - and they are required through Medicare/Medicaid regulations as well.

 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I don't understand the relevance of this. I've lived in the UK and France, and my experience is nothing like your daughter's — no registering with the state, no declaring who you live with, no unusual paperwork to get a driver's license. I don't remember having to provide any more proof of residency in the UK than I do in the US (e.g. a bank statement or utility bill with my name and current address). If I moved it would be up to me to inform my healthcare provider of my change of address, just like in the US. If your argument is that the only way to have universal healthcare, or even just a vaccine database, is to have the sort of system you describe for Austria, that is simply not true.

My kids got their childhood vaccines in the UK, and when we moved to the US, I brought their immunization records with me. Their US pediatricians entered the UK data in their records and added their US vaccines, and when we moved to our current state, we had our records transferred. I got my covid vaccines at a Kroger pharmacy and they showed up in my personal portal (MyChart) within days, without my having to show my vaccine card to my doctor. DD got hers at a mass vax clinic and DS got his on campus; they showed up in their MyHealth portals. There's no reason that MyChart and MyHealth couldn't link with an app or something to generate a QR code. The fact that Texas doesn't handle medical records that way doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it can't be accomplished without some huge sacrifice of freedom and privacy.

No, I would not say that the only way to have universal health care, or even a vaccine database, is to have the system that I described.  What I am saying is that there has to be some system, which does not exist in the US at this point for one reason or another.  You cannot simply say that Country X has a vaccine passport so it must work here also.  

[TexasProud]

5 minutes ago, TechWife said:

People aren't talking about a centralized database as a requirement. We are talking about vaccine passports and the various ways that they can be managed. She doesn't want a centralized database and if I am understanding her correctly, she is having trouble figuring out what having a vaccine passport would look like without one. I don't think I've seen anyone on this thread push for a centralized database, while many have been in favor of a vaccine passport.

I hope your mom's test results info is informative - I totally understand how stressful that can be.

I think we as citizens decide if something is political. We don't have to bite every piece of bait that is dangled in front of us by politicians, the media or anyone else. When something that shouldn't be political becomes political, like vaccines, I really think it's because we have allowed it. Personally, I am doing my best not to consider politics in regards to my position on vaccines. I don't know if I've been perfect, but I've spent a lot of time chasing down reputable sources and verifying all the quotes that are attributed to various people.

Yeah I trust no news. All buased one way or another. 

Thank you for mom. 

U

Yes. That is the point with passports. Tgey are not worth the paper printed on. You are right thst Texas and other states have no will. So shoukd New York say ours are nit valid??? You cannot orove mine is valid.  Too many examples as Bootsie is showing. Require tgem, but they don’t mean anything. 

 

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Given that the majority of the mail that comes to my house is not for people who live at my address I don't think that is a good example of who knows who is living where.  

I was specifically responding to a poster's comment that where she lived, there was some certainty about who was receiving a vaccine because that person was specifically invited to receive a vaccine.  If a church secures vaccines and invites neighbors to get them, do they know who is actually showing up to get them and recording those in a database that can be turned over to someone else?  Yes, these things have really happened--and that is the problem of trying to get people to prove their vaccine at this point.  Some of these places did not ask for an ID.  Some recorded items one way; some another.  This allowed us to get vaccines in more arms more quickly and to get it arms of people who do not have documentation. 

In my state, yes. All of that information is being recorded and is kept at the county level, just like other vaccines. Here, when a provider gives a vaccine, they register it with the county health department, who shares it with the state health department as needed by public health concerns. One example of this might be an attempt to determine why an outbreak of a particular illness, for example measles,  occurred in a given area, say a school. When the health department looks at vaccination rates for a county and sees that they are low, they can then conduct efforts to up the vaccination rates in order to prevent a larger outbreak. So, if county A has 10 kids at School 1 that have the measles, the county & state would look at the vaccination rate to see if they need to educate parents or provide a clinic to get kids caught up. Without that, an exposed kid who goes to School 1 goes to church with the kid who goes to school 2 and then school 2 might also have a measles outbreak. It goes on & on.

 

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, TechWife said:

In my state, yes. All of that information is being recorded and is kept at the county level, just like other vaccines. Here, when a provider gives a vaccine, they register it with the county health department, who shares it with the state health department as needed by public health concerns. One example of this might be an attempt to determine why an outbreak of a particular illness, for example measles,  occurred in a given area, say a school. When the health department looks at vaccination rates for a county and sees that they are low, they can then conduct efforts to up the vaccination rates in order to prevent a larger outbreak. So, if county A has 10 kids at School 1 that have the measles, the county & state would look at the vaccination rate to see if they need to educate parents or provide a clinic to get kids caught up. Without that, an exposed kid who goes to School 1 goes to church with the kid who goes to school 2 and then school 2 might also have a measles outbreak. It goes on & on.

 

Ok, now I don’t understand your point. Fine. Being done where you are. Not where we are….so point is…..

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah I trust no news. All buased one way or another. 

Thank you for mom. 

U

Yes. That is the point with passports. Tgey are not worth the paper printed on. You are right thst Texas and other states have no will. So shoukd New York say ours are nit valid??? You cannot orove mine is valid.  Too many examples as Bootsie is showing. Require tgem, but they don’t mean anything. 

 

That's where having the reputable providers comes in - to provide validation. Reputable healthcare providers and reputable software vendors. "Here at stadium z, we recognize vaccine passports from EPIC, Cerner and AllScripts." Also, I don't for a minute think they are going to be printed regularly - I'm thinking maybe you were using this as a figure of speech?

I guess I just dont' think this is insurmountable or beyond the pale with the technologies we have available to us and the amount of information that is already in a medical record that is secure only because at the core, honest people are in charge of it. The entire healthcare system runs on honesty - as does so much else. Perhaps I'm a little bit more optimistic that the system will hold, and if it doesn't hold, it won't be because of EMR's or vaccine passports.

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, TechWife said:

People aren't talking about a centralized database as a requirement. We are talking about vaccine passports and the various ways that they can be managed. She doesn't want a centralized database and if I am understanding her correctly, she is having trouble figuring out what having a vaccine passport would look like without one. I don't think I've seen anyone on this thread push for a centralized database, while many have been in favor of a vaccine passport.

I hope your mom's test results info is informative - I totally understand how stressful that can be.

I think we as citizens decide if something is political. We don't have to bite every piece of bait that is dangled in front of us by politicians, the media or anyone else. When something that shouldn't be political becomes political, like vaccines, I really think it's because we have allowed it. Personally, I am doing my best not to consider politics in regards to my position on vaccines. I don't know if I've been perfect, but I've spent a lot of time chasing down reputable sources and verifying all the quotes that are attributed to various people.

If I am the "she" you are referring to, I do not know how you know what I do or do not want.  I do not recall saying a do not want a centralized database.  I said that we do NOT have one and that there are a number or pros and cons about that.  

Personally, I do not think a vaccine passport, in the absence of some consistent, authoritative way of providing a record of vaccination is worth anything.  

Even in countries that have gone to showng QR codes places, have had trouble with the QR codes being hacked.  I also see enough fake drivers license and medical documentation every semester to know that plenty of people are going to great lengths to fake documents. 

 

[TechWife]

Just now, Bootsie said:

If I am the "she" you are referring to, I do not know how you know what I do or do not want.  I do not recall saying a do not want a centralized database.  I said that we do NOT have one and that there are a number or pros and cons about that.  

Personally, I do not think a vaccine passport, in the absence of some consistent, authoritative way of providing a record of vaccination is worth anything.  

Even in countries that have gone to showng QR codes places, have had trouble with the QR codes being hacked.  I also see enough fake drivers license and medical documentation every semester to know that plenty of people are going to great lengths to fake documents. 

 

No, you are not the she. I was continuing our previous conversation.

[TexasProud]

4 minutes ago, TechWife said:

That's where having the reputable providers comes in - to provide validation. Reputable healthcare providers and reputable software vendors. "Here at stadium z, we recognize vaccine passports from EPIC, Cerner and AllScripts." Also, I don't for a minute think they are going to be printed regularly - I'm thinking maybe you were using this as a figure of speech?

I guess I just dont' think this is insurmountable or beyond the pale with the technologies we have available to us and the amount of information that is already in a medical record that is secure only because at the core, honest people are in charge of it. The entire healthcare system runs on honesty - as does so much else. Perhaps I'm a little bit more optimistic that the system will hold, and if it doesn't hold, it won't be because of EMR's or vaccine passports.

Oh it could be done. No arguments there. But Trxas and other states have no political will to do so. So mute point. It will not be done. And yeah seen arrests for fake ones. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by TexasProud

[TexasProud]

@Techwife. I mean my state is suing a local school distric for requiring masks. The district did so because numbers were HIGH first week of school. Like 50 on 2nd day of school at high school alone and 8 teachers at the school.  Andbit is working! Their numbers are fine now. But no, my state would tather sue thdm than actually do somtabout naking vaccines more available.