Have you changed your view of right or wrong.......

[Scarlett]

Specifically asked about loving someone who does not conform to your moral code? 
 

how did you get to the point of believing personal. allegiance was above moral conviction.

Edited to clarify---I am not personally struggling with this issue.  I do have loved ones who live contrary to what I believe to be right.  I still love them, they still love me.  I wasn't questioning whether a person should continue to LOVE someone who begins some activity (gambling?) ....my question was 'have you changed your mind about the activity being wrong'.  

Thanks for sharing everyone.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Scarlett

[Murphy101]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Specifically asked about loving someone who does not conform to your moral code? 
 

how did you get to the point of believing personal. allegiance was above moral conviction.

Um. Say what now?

No matter what my moral conviction about the choices other people make, my Christian duty is to act in love towards them.  That does not mean I have to agree or accept or condone it.  But I do have to love them.  Sometimes love hurts and requires sacrifice. Sometimes they may not think I’m acting in love.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Murphy101

[maize]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Specifically asked about loving someone who does not conform to your moral code? 
 

how did you get to the point of believing personal. allegiance was above moral conviction.

I don't think loving someone who does not conform to my moral code (and there are many people whose behavior does not conform to my moral code in various aspects) is about putting personal allegiance above moral conviction. I think it is about following the highest of my moral convictions--love God and love my neighbor. 

I don't love people in spite of my moral code. I love people because of it.

The rest of the moral code is secondary and their morality is ultimately not for me to judge.

(This doesn't for me mean that I don't make efforts to shore up areas of morality as I perceive them, nor does it mean that I have to actively support or celebrate everything a person does in order to love them.)

[WildflowerMom]

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking here, but here's my 2 cents...

ds is doing something I'm not crazy about from a moral standpoint.   But since God gave me ds for a reason, I'll love him and be on his side no matter what he does.  I think God is big enough to understand that.    I can't control ds or anyone, for that matter.   I can only love him and let him see God's light in me and pray that he will see that and seek Christ.    Like I said, I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, so I may be way off. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I have been really open here about my faith transition this past year. Interestingly one of the podcasters I listened to interested some ex-JWs and there were so many parallels are both are high demand religions.

One of the things that I found parallel was the notion that the church defines morality. In other words, what you should or shouldn’t do is defined by elders or by other higher ups in the church and their interpretations of scripture rather than by what you personally feel. Now, likely you and I both balk at that thought initially—but you and I both belonged to religions that state that marriage outside of that between a man and a woman is wrong—yet the scriptures don’t explicitly say that. (I explain this later, but don’t want to derail the conversation more.) Another example is to not listen to those who aren’t believers. Shunning is a little more strict in JW but there are absolutely people who divorce their spouse when people leave my old church. 
 

I came to the point of realizing that the moral conviction was wrong on some things. On others, I decided that I would follow the higher commandment of loving one another.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I have been really open here about my faith transition this past year. Interestingly one of the podcasters I listened to interested some ex-JWs and there were so many parallels are both are high demand religions.

One of the things that I found parallel was the notion that the church defines morality. In other words, what you should or shouldn’t do is defined by elders or by other higher ups in the church and their interpretations of scripture rather than by what you personally feel. Now, likely you and I both balk at that thought initially—but you and I both belonged to religions that state that marriage outside of that between a man and a woman is wrong—yet the scriptures don’t explicitly say that. (I explain this later, but don’t want to derail the conversation more.) Another example is to not listen to those who aren’t believers. Shunning is a little more strict in JW but there are absolutely people who divorce their spouse when people leave my old church. 
 

I came to the point of realizing that the moral conviction was wrong on some things. On others, I decided that I would follow the higher commandment of loving one another.

Well I would hope scripture would define morality.  And if a church is teaching contrary to that then maybe re examine your church.  
my question here is about  changing your belief system, or leaving your belief system when It suddenly is in conflict with a person you love.  

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

My views about what is moral have changed. I used to believe that homosexual activity was a very serious sin. My mind was changed by knowing gay people and realizing that they were not different from heterosexual people. 

I also began to understand that "love the sinner, hate the sin" was still bigoted because how could I "hate" something that was a fundamental part of person and claim to love them? 

I also began to question how something could be a very serious sin when people were made that way. 

I've been thinking about this recently. I'm not sure how the 'traditional' Christian church continues without accepting homosexuality. I had a conversation with DD tonight. She went to a slumber party a few days ago with a group of 10 and 11 YO girls from Catholic school. Three of the girls claim to be bi-sexual. DD said they talked about pronouns. Morality has shifted. I see traditional people doubling down in reaction to this but how do you keep your kids away from this unless you completely isolate? 

And what I've seen over and over again is that when homosexuality is personal instead of abstract, people accept it. 

This isn't the first evolution of morality. Who cares now about divorce? When Ronald Reagan ran for the presidency in 1980, it was a big deal because he was divorced. Who cares today? Does anyone look down on people who are divorced and re-married? 

These are all prime examples 

[Tanaqui]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Specifically asked about loving someone who does not conform to your moral code? 
 

how did you get to the point of believing personal. allegiance was above moral conviction.

 

Wow, that is an extremely weird and loaded phrasing. I'm not even sure where to begin untangling the bizarre assumptions that seem baked into this question.

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Um. Say what now?

No matter what my moral conviction about the choices other people make, my Christian duty is to act in love towards them.  That does not mean I have to agree or accept or condone it.  But I do have to love them.  Sometimes love hurts and requires sacrifice. Sometimes they may not think I’m acting in love.

Yes,  but am not talking about showing love…….my question is about changing your own views on right or wrong.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

Wow, that is an extremely weird and loaded phrasing. I'm not even sure where to begin untangling the bizarre assumptions that seem baked into this question.

Really?  Seems a pretty straight forward question to me. 

[Murphy101]

Did you watch Star Wars Revenge of the Sith?  (The entire series is crap imnsho which is blasphemy to my Dh. But that’s another topic.)

I have never seen more than a few minutes of it here and there over the years because it bores me to sleep. But there is this one scene where Padma is fat pregnant and realizing the father of her babies is a child mass murdering psychopath.  And she is crying and she tells him. Begs him actually. That she loves him but he is going where she cannot follow and it is breaking her heart. Then the psychopath strangled  her just enough to make her pass out but not kill her, like that means he isn’t really all that bad I guess?  🤨

But I’m there with Padma.  I love all my people deeply. But if they cross that mortal moral line, I cannot follow them across it. And it breaks my heart for them and me. But there it is.  All I can do is tell them I love them but I will not go there with them and I will never be okay with them being on that other side of the line. Because I see no good in that for them. And ultimately, love is wanting the good of another.

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking here, but here's my 2 cents...

ds is doing something I'm not crazy about from a moral standpoint.   But since God gave me ds for a reason, I'll love him and be on his side no matter what he does.  I think God is big enough to understand that.    I can't control ds or anyone, for that matter.   I can only love him and let him see God's light in me and pray that he will see that and seek Christ.    Like I said, I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, so I may be way off. 

Yes, but what you are saying is that you keep loving him inspite of this thing he is doing against your moral code. My question is have you changed your moral,code because your kid is going against it.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Did you watch Star Wars Revenge of the Sith?  (The entire series is crap imnsho which is blasphemy to my Dh. But that’s another topic.)

I have never seen more than a few minutes of it here and there over the years because it bores me to sleep. But there is this one scene where Padma is fat pregnant and realizing the father of her babies is a child mass murdering psychopath.  And she is crying and she tells him. Begs him actually. That she loves him but he is going where she cannot follow and it is breaking her heart. Then the psychopath strangled  her just enough to make her pass out but not kill her, like that means he isn’t really all that bad I guess?  🤨

But I’m there with Padma.  I love all my people deeply. But if they cross that mortal moral line, I cannot follow them across it. And it breaks my heart for them and me. But there it is.  All I can do is tell them I love them but I will not go there with them and I will never be okay with them being on that other side of the line. Because I see no good in that for them. And ultimately, love is wanting the good of another.

Yea, this is me. Exactly. 

[Scarlett]

For instance, say you are  against bank robbing. Your child however decides to become a bank robber.  Do you decide bank robbing is not that bad and embrace it or do you tell your child bank robbing is bad, stop it and change your ways.  

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes,  but am not talking about showing love…….my question is about changing your own views on right or wrong.

That’s not even slightly how your question read to me. At all. 

For me, I’m a convert from basically nothing to Christianity, to the RCC.

How I came to that is through reason for me.  I like a well thought out logical argument.  The RCC does that well for the most part. I’m not unemotional. (Four of my kids were confirmed today and me and their godfather freely sobbed in the pew.) But I don’t trust emotional or drama filled reasonings.

[WildflowerMom]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, but what you are saying is that you keep loving him inspite of this thing he is doing against your moral code. My question is have you changed your moral,code because your kid is going against it.

No.   But my moral code doesn't have to be everyone's moral code.   I love my kid regardless of his beliefs.   I love my neighbor regardless of his beliefs.   Actually, that is my moral code--to love my neighbor (insert anyone here) as I love myself and love God with everything I have.   

[WildflowerMom]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

For instance, say you are  against bank robbing. Your child however decides to become a bank robber.  Do you decide bank robbing is not that bad and embrace it or do you tell your child bank robbing is bad, stop it and change your ways.  

You can tell your kid to stop being stupid and robbing banks.  And in the next breath, you tell them how much you love them.   You don't ever have to embrace the sin to keep loving them.   

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

That’s not even slightly how your question read to me. At all. 

For me, I’m a convert from basically nothing to Christianity, to the RCC.

How I came to that is through reason for me.  I like a well thought out logical argument.  The RCC does that well for the most part. I’m not unemotional. (Four of my kids were confirmed today and me and their godfather freely sobbed in the pew.) But I don’t trust emotional or drama filled reasonings.

 Huh? Read my post. I specifically said have you changed your views on morality for someone you loved. And then I repeated myself. Your answer was no you would not.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

You can tell your kid to stop being stupid and robbing banks.  And in the next breath, you tell them how much you love them.   You don't ever have to embrace the sin to keep loving them.   

Yes, I agree. But I am specifically asking if you go so far as to change your mind about what you had previously believed to be right or wrong based upon a loved one going off,the rails.

[Junie]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

For instance, say you are  against bank robbing. Your child however decides to become a bank robber.  Do you decide bank robbing is not that bad and embrace it or do you tell your child bank robbing is bad, stop it and change your ways.  

A better example might be something that is what some might consider immoral, yet is legal.  For instance, gambling.

5 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

You can tell your kid to stop being stupid and robbing banks.  And in the next breath, you tell them how much you love them.   You don't ever have to embrace the sin to keep loving them.   

Yes.  This exactly.  Just because a family member or whoever is involved in something doesn't mean that I should be a part of it, but I can still love the person.  I just won't go with him to a casino or to rob a bank.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Junie

[Scarlett]

Just now, Junie said:

A better example might be something that is somewhat might consider immoral, yet is legal.  For instance, gambling.

Yes.  This exactly.  Just because a family member or whoever is involved in something doesn't mean that I should be a part of it, but I can still love the person.  I just won't go with him to a casino or to rob a bank.

Yes, I am not asking if you would stop loving the person…..but rather would you change your view of the matter. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Junie said:

A better example might be something that is what some might consider immoral, yet is legal.  For instance, gambling.

Yes.  This exactly.  Just because a family member or whoever is involved in something doesn't mean that I should be a part of it, but I can still love the person.  I just won't go with him to a casino or to rob a bank.

Ok. Sure.  So. All,of your life you have believed that gambling is morally wrong. Then a loved one becomes a professional gambler.  Do you say, well now I believe that gambling is not wrong.  

[Junie]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, I am not asking if you would stop loving the person…..but rather would you change your view of the matter. 

For me, I think it would depend on whether the problem is forbidden in Scripture (according to how I have been taught).  In those cases, it would be a hard no.  There are some things that I do look past regarding family members, but I won't participate in the activity with them.  (I guess it's maybe a bit of live and let live mixed with love the sinner, not the sin.)

[WildflowerMom]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, I am not asking if you would stop loving the person…..but rather would you change your view of the matter. 

I guess it would matter what that moral issue actually is.    But you don't have to agree with what they're doing to love them and show kindness to them.  

[Murphy101]

21 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

My views about what is moral have changed. I used to believe that homosexual activity was a very serious sin. My mind was changed by knowing gay people and realizing that they were not different from heterosexual people. 

I also began to understand that "love the sinner, hate the sin" was still bigoted because how could I "hate" something that was a fundamental part of person and claim to love them? 
I guess I view homosexuality as a sin only when they act on it.  For the most part the RCC views homosexuality as a terrible hardship and cross the bear.  Much like heterosexuals who are not married.  They obviously still have sexuality inherent to their biological makeup.  But if they aren’t in a sacramental marriage, sex would be a sin.  So I view them the same as heterosexuals too.

I also began to question how something could be a very serious sin when people were made that way. 
Heterosexuals are made that way too, doesn’t make it not a sin to have sex outside a sacramental marriage.

I've been thinking about this recently. I'm not sure how the 'traditional' Christian church continues without accepting homosexuality. I had a conversation with DD tonight. She went to a slumber party a few days ago with a group of 10 and 11 YO girls from Catholic school. Three of the girls claim to be bi-sexual. DD said they talked about pronouns. Morality has shifted. I see traditional people doubling down in reaction to this but how do you keep your kids away from this unless you completely isolate? 

Catholics schools have always been 50-90% non Catholics.  That’s the nature of evangelization via schools.  And yet the church has not changed much.  

And what I've seen over and over again is that when homosexuality is personal instead of abstract, people accept it. 

🤷‍♀️ I personally know homosexuals. I know lots of sinners. I am a sinner. I do not accept sin as okay.  I accept that we all struggle with it and need help to battle that struggle. 

This isn't the first evolution of morality. Who cares now about divorce? When Ronald Reagan ran for the presidency in 1980, it was a big deal because he was divorced. Who cares today? Does anyone look down on people who are divorced and re-married? 

Look down on? Or think it’s sad and to be avoided if at all possible?   I know extremely few people who are okay with divorce or don’t care about it.  I know a LOT more people absolutely terrified of it to the point they don’t want to ever marry. But none of that means they are “looking down” on someone who has divorced.

 

[Junie]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok. Sure.  So. All,of your life you have believed that gambling is morally wrong. Then a loved one becomes a professional gambler.  Do you say, well now I believe that gambling is not wrong.  

No, I would still believe that gambling is wrong, but I would still love the person.  I'm sure that person would find things in my moral code that they also disagree with.

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Ok. Sure.  So. All,of your life you have believed that gambling is morally wrong. Then a loved one becomes a professional gambler.  Do you say, well now I believe that gambling is not wrong.  

No, of course not.    But if that person chooses to gamble, that's between them and God.   I don't get to be his judge and jury.  I can express my beliefs (but in a loving way) and still love him if he continues to gamble.   

[Junie]

My sister and I do not see eye-to-eye on many, many things.  If she were on this message board, you would soon see that pretty much everything that I am for she is against, and vice versa.  (Except vaccines.  We agree on vaccines.)  We live very different lives.  We love each other even though we think that the other person is completely wrong, we have learned (mostly) to set those things aside and enjoy the things that we have in common -- our family.

[Tanaqui]

32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Really?  Seems a pretty straight forward question to me. 

I'm sure it does. However, you start with "changing your views on morality" and then move to a weird "how did you decide personal allegiance was more important than morals" comment, which... look, I don't know what you're struggling with here, but that dichotomy is bizarre.

Like, I can still love my kid who is a bank robber or whatever. That has nothing to do with my views on theft. Or, using your other example of gambling, there are lots of reasons I might change my opinion of the morality of gambling, in either direction, that have nothing to do with "personal allegiance", and of course my love for a friend or relative who is a professional gambler again has nothing to do with my opinions on gambling.

You think your question is straightforward, but the assumptions you had to make to even get to the point where you're asking it are *weird*.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Tanaqui

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, I am not asking if you would stop loving the person…..but rather would you change your view of the matter. 

I’m sure many people would say one thing, but might actually do something different depending on the situation and issue. I’m sure that during times of war for instance, some people have changed their view on of stealing food and lying if it meant saving the lives of their children. For instance, a woman might be ok with her husband choosing to steal food for the family. I don’t think you can really know until faced with it. And for many it’s likely an evolving process that might cause them to re-examine previously held beliefs.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, Junie said:

My sister and I do not see eye-to-eye on many, many things.  If she were on this message board, you would soon see that pretty much everything that I am for she is against, and vice versa.  (Except vaccines.  We agree on vaccines.)  We live very different lives.  We love each other even though we think that the other person is completely wrong, we have learned (mostly) to set those things aside and enjoy the things that we have in common -- our family.

Same with me and my brother, but I still love him and I know he loves me. And neither of us has changed our minds.

[Murphy101]

Okay. 
 

let’s say my kid says they are homosexual. Well. I’m going to tell them I love them, God loves them, I don’t see a healthy future in this decision and I will help in any way possible for them to handle this struggle. But I’m not going to accept or welcome them having homosexual sex. 
 

let’s say my heterosexual sexual kid runs off with a girl and shacks up with her.  Well I’m going to tell him I love him. God loves him. I don’t think this is a healthy relationship decision, and I’ll support healthy decisions for them as best I can. But they are not going to get to share a room when we go on a family vacation and I’m not going to call her my daughter in law when she isn’t. I will pay for premarriage counseling though. 
 

let’s say my daughter has an abortion.  I’m going to tell her I love her.  God loves her.  I’m sorry she felt that was her only option.  I’ll pay for counseling and I’ll encourage her to go confession and Rachel’s Vineyard.   I would not go with her to get one. I would not support that horrible act. 

[Junie]

I'm going to bed in a few minutes, so I'll have to catch up with the conversation tomorrow.

My sister and I have some rules that we follow to help us.

1. House rules -- we follow my rules at my house and her rules at her house.  Now, the truth is that I never go to her house*, but she respects my house rules.  (These would be things like drinking, swearing...)  If I were to go to her house, I wouldn't begin drinking and swearing, but I also wouldn't stop her for doing as she likes in her own home.  *Note: I don't go to her house because she is single in an apartment and I have six kids.  It's a lot easier for her to fit in our space than for us to fit in hers. 

2.  We live in different states.  Even if it's only a couple of hours apart.  We need the distance.

3.  We never discuss politics.

4.  We never discuss religion.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think that was what I was saying, Scarlett. Look, I don’t owe you the details of my life. I told you how I got there—looking to the higher commandments helped me let go of the rigidity of it all.

———//

You’ve put a lot of conditions on the support you offer people who make choices that conflict with your views on morality. As in, they must meet your morality standards or you don’t support them.

Why? Sincere questions. Do you think god is going to cut off your salvation if you do so? Are you afraid of losing standing in your community? Are you so sure that your position is right and theirs is wrong? What are you gaining from that? Is your sense of self so fragile that that it can’t handle the incoherence of disagreeing with a thing and supporting a person? I truly don’t understand it.

A (now ex-) friend kicked out her teen child when they came out as gay. I think she is an awful person for doing so. She thought she was being consistent in her moral views. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

And how do we rank sins? We are all sinners? Why do accept people who commit some and not others? Who do we let do their ranking?

I know a lot of people who don’t care well for the poor or who are proud in heart and yet they seem a lot more welcome in church than people who are gay.

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

50-90% of students in Catholic schools are non-Catholic? DD's future school is probably almost 100% Catholic students. Every kid who was at that slumber party was Catholic. 

I live in a state where Catholics are only 6% of the population.  Originally Catholics schools were a point of evangelization.  That’s how any of them ended up in the americas and many other countries as they were explored and developed by Western Europe.   And yet the Catholic Church didn’t change much. 
 

How do you say to someone that you love them but tell them that they cannot act on something that is a fundamental part of who they are? You are asking them to be celibate their entire lives. To live without a family. Gay people don't consider that to be love for them. 

Some Catholic homosexuals do  and that’s why they freely choose to join Catholic homosexual support groups that are designed with the purpose of helping them carry that cross.  Heterosexuals are capable of celibacy, why wouldn’t homosexuals also be capable of it?  And they are not being told to live without a family.  They still have parents, siblings, friends, community.  Most heterosexual people have family even if they never marry and or have children.  You seem to be saying that being born wanting something makes it unloving to not have it. That’s not true for heterosexuals, so why would it be true for homosexuals? Is that true for anything people seem born wanting or just sexual wants?  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Why is it ok to tell someone we expect them to have lifelong celibacy?

Like, as a very straight person, I find the idea of personally kissing a girl unappealing. If that was the only option I had because I lived in a homo-normative world, I would be consigned to loneliness or lying to a female partner that I found her attractive. Why is that ok? It’s not. Y’all are horrified by the idea. Why do we put these same constraints onto our gay fellow church goers? Being gay isn’t a choice. 

[Loowit]

I don't want to get into my personal struggles, but I have faced some decisions in recent years that have stretched my faith.  I have a moral code that is based on the Bible, and that can't change no matter how I personally feel about it or want to feel.  It would be "easy" to change how I feel about things to go with the flow in some ways, but then I am not being true to myself or to God.

Some things are right and some are wrong.  It doesn't mean that I don't pray about it, study about it, and seek guidance from trusted friends and fellow Christians.  But, I will not change my morality because my child goes down a path that I can't support.  I still love my child, and my child knows that.  We still have a very close relationship, but agree to disagree about certain things.

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Okay. 
 

let’s say my kid says they are homosexual. Well. I’m going to tell them I love them, God loves them, I don’t see a healthy future in this decision and I will help in any way possible for them to handle this struggle. But I’m not going to accept or welcome them having homosexual sex. 
 

let’s say my heterosexual sexual kid runs off with a girl and shacks up with her.  Well I’m going to tell him I love him. God loves him. I don’t think this is a healthy relationship decision, and I’ll support healthy decisions for them as best I can. But they are not going to get to share a room when we go on a family vacation and I’m not going to call her my daughter in law when she isn’t. I will pay for premarriage counseling though. 
 

let’s say my daughter has an abortion.  I’m going to tell her I love her.  God loves her.  I’m sorry she felt that was her only option.  I’ll pay for counseling and I’ll encourage her to go confession and Rachel’s Vineyard.   I would not go with her to get one. I would not support that horrible act. 

One big difference in your examples is that the homosexual part is forever. The heterosexual son could marry and poof, no more sin for you. With the daughter it is already done and in your belief system (my former belief system), she could be forgiven through confession. So it’s also not ongoing. 
 

You of course don’t have to answer, but I’m curious if you would treat both unmarried partners the same in terms of things like welcoming them to your home for dinners, holidays, family celebrations, etc.

[katilac]

 

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

50-90% of students in Catholic schools are non-Catholic? DD's future school is probably almost 100% Catholic students. Every kid who was at that slumber party was Catholic. 

That's not something I've ever heard either, and I'm a cradle Catholic who lives in an area where I could throw a rock and hit a Catholic school, and it would bounce off and hit another Catholic school. There are non-Catholics at most Catholic schools these days, sure, but the number is more like 20%.

Evangelization via schools is also something I've never heard of in relation to Catholicism. Catholics are not known for evangelization in general - if you enter the words "Catholic evangelize" in your search bar, the first page of hits is mostly results about why Catholics don't evangelize, lol. 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Specifically asked about loving someone who does not conform to your moral code? 
 

Aren't we meant to love everyone? 

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

There are many examples of gay people whose parents handled it this way and they do not feel that they received love from their parents. 

About 20 years ago, when I was still a very serious Catholic, I had a good friend who came out. We became very close. He was struggling with Christianity. His mother responded to his coming out similar to how you would. He was very hurt by his mother's reaction. He asked me to talk with his mother about it. I told him that if I could not tell his mother that I thought his behavior was not sinful. My friend was extremely hurt by what I did and ended our friendship. Now I understand why he reacted like he did. I hurt him very much and so did his mother. I was wrong and regret what I said. 

I wasn't loving him and neither was his mother. 

Okay?

Sin hurts sometimes. Often ime.

I would recognize that my child was hurting. I would be hurting right there with them. But being hurt doesn’t make a sin no longer a sin.  What I would tell your friend is that his mother was hurting too and she loves him enough to only want what she knows to be Good for him. Obviously he disagrees about what that is. But I’d hope he could remember that she does love him.  

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Why is it ok to tell someone we expect them to have lifelong celibacy?

Like, as a very straight person, I find the idea of personally kissing a girl unappealing. If that was the only option I had because I lived in a homo-normative world, I would be consigned to loneliness or lying to a female partner that I found her attractive. Why is that ok? It’s not. Y’all are horrified by the idea. Why do we put these same constraints onto our gay fellow church goers? Being gay isn’t a choice. 

I find it more interesting that they equate heterosexuals choosing celibacy to homosexuals being required to be celibate. One famous story I’ll never forget from this board long ago was one poster equating her mom’s celibacy at one point in her marriage (despite already having children and grandchildren!) to what her church required of gays (no sexual stuff of any type at all ever). I think people want to try and equate things that are basically similar in name only because it makes it not seem so bad or so hard.

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Heterosexuals are made that way too, doesn’t make it not a sin to have sex outside a sacramental marriage.

That’s part of the logic that brought me to the place of thinking gay marriage should be accepted. Let them get married and that’s no longer true. I believe the negative statements about homosexual acts in the Bible are because at that time, it was associated with prostitution and promiscuity. They are very similar to statements about other kinds of fornication.  There was no concept of committed gay marriage. I always wonder if people would have an issue with gay marriage if the couple pledges to be celibate. The Biblical objections I’ve heard are all based on the sex being the wrong thing about it. Some gay people are asexual. Would it be different for them to marry?

[Murphy101]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

One big difference in your examples is that the homosexual part is forever. The heterosexual son could marry and poof, no more sin for you. With the daughter it is already done and in your belief system (my former belief system), she could be forgiven through confession. So it’s also not ongoing. 
 

You of course don’t have to answer, but I’m curious if you would treat both unmarried partners the same in terms of things like welcoming them to your home for dinners, holidays, family celebrations, etc.

Hmmm. I honestly don’t know. So for example, when my kids have dated, I have not been bothered by kissing hello/goodbye or hand holding.  I don’t think we would be accepting of a homosexual couple doing that in our home.

but otherwise? Like could they bring a homosexual friend over without sexual issues cropping up?  Absolutely. And they have. I mean my kids have gone to state colleges, it’s not like we live in a bubble. They have brought home college friends who are trans, bisexual, gay, lesbian - nearly all atheist or agnostic at best.  We have happily and without incident had them stay the weekend and come for holidays. And they didn’t seem to hate us when they left. Many make return trips.  And we are the say the angelus at noon, grace before all meals, entire family does full office of night prayers and st Michael at bedtime and daily mass kind of Catholics. But they are colleges kids. Maybe it’s just for the food they come around for. 🤷‍♀️

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

But does she really love him if she doesn't accept him and she hurts him? 

Yes.  With all my heart, my answer would be yes.

[Frances]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

Hmmm. I honestly don’t know. So for example, when my kids have dated, I have not been bothered by kissing hello/goodbye or hand holding.  I don’t think we would be accepting of a homosexual couple doing that in our home.

but otherwise? Like could they bring a homosexual friend over without sexual issues cropping up?  Absolutely. And they have. I mean my kids have gone to state colleges, it’s not like we live in a bubble. They have brought home college friends who are trans, bisexual, gay, lesbian - nearly all atheist or agnostic at best.  We have happily and without incident had them stay the weekend and come for holidays. And they didn’t seem to hate us when they left. Many make return trips.  And we are the say the angelus at noon, grace before all meals, entire family does full office of night prayers and st Michael at bedtime and daily mass kind of Catholics. But they are colleges kids. Maybe it’s just for the food they come around for. 🤷‍♀️

Yes.  With all my heart, my answer would be yes.

Of course I assumed you would accept friends of different sexual orientations. I meant only unmarried romantic partners. But you were honest and said you didn’t know. Thank you.

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

I find it more interesting that they equate heterosexuals choosing celibacy to homosexuals being required to be celibate. 

What? Both can choose to have sex or not? 

[prairiewindmomma]

The word we see as homosexual in most English translations of the Bible is the Greek word arsenokoitai. It translates as boy molesters, not homosexual. The problem was pedastery, not homosexuality.

For more on this point:

https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has-“homosexual”-always-been-in-the-bible/

http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_statements/homosexuality-not-a-sin-not-a-sickness-part-ii-what-the-bible-does-and-does-not-say/

I said above I would explain later with re: to what the Bible says v. what the church says.....this is an example of that.

So, that was the baby step for me in leaving my faith. From there I went through a complete deconstruction and have talked about that elsewhere.

 

 

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

What? Both can choose to have sex or not? 

Heterosexuals can choose to get the type of marriage you approve of and then poof, sin no more. I’m assuming that gays getting married does not change your mind about whether or not they are sinning? It sort of goes back to my question about whether you would treat unmarried homosexual and heterosexual partners the same because one can stop sinning by getting married and the other can’t (according to your faith).

Edited June 7, 2021 by Frances

[Junie]

22 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

But does she really love him if she doesn't accept him and she hurts him? 

I think that it is possible for one person to love another and for the other person to not feel loved.  

What the issue is, I think, (and this may be the case in @Scarlett original post, is "What does it mean to accept?"  And I think that is going to mean different things to different people.  

[Frances]

I think people can be very sure about how they will react and change their mind when actually confronted with a homosexual child. Or sadly, change their mind after the child commits suicide after being rejected by their family (or at least that is how they perceived it even if it wasn’t intended). (See the documentary “For the Bible Tells Me So” for an example.) Or of course never change their mind. I mean there are lots of homeless gay teens living on the streets for a reason.