English - Detective themed lit

[RootAnn]

Dd#3 requested detective (murder/mystery)-themed lit as part of Literature for English 10.

I'm thinking one Agatha Christie, one Sherlock Holmes story, ... what else?

Looking for all types of ideas.

[stripe]

I have seen this for a semester’s class

https://expand.iu.edu/browse/iuhs/english/courses/eng-47l

Braun, Lilian. The Cat Who Talked to Ghosts.

Christie, Agatha. The A.B.C. Murders. 

Du Maurier, Daphne. Rebecca.

Fforde, Jasper. The Eyre Affair.

Hillerman, Tony. A Thief of Time.

Hillerman, Tony, ed. The Best American Mystery Stories of the Century.

Paige, Robin. Death at Bishop‘s Keep.

Smith, Alexander. The No. 1 Ladies’ Detective Agency.

[alisha]

Dorothy Sayers
Margery Allingham

Agatha Christie has a couple different series, maybe choose 1 from each: Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple

These are all about the same era as the ones you chose, so not sure if you want to span further, or keep with "classics" or what.

[Miss Tick]

I came to recommend some books, but then i remembered that i am terrible at remembering if there are controversial bits in books or media so i was just going to leave you with the classic, "Are You My Mother?" but then i remembered the Flavia deLuce series. I think the first was "The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie"

 

[Miss Tick]

3 minutes ago, stripe said:

Fforde, Jasper. The Eyre Affair.

We enjoyed this as a read aloud recently. It helped that we had read Jane Eyre just prior. Also helped that WWS had made us all familiar with The Charge of the Light Brigade and a bit of Crimean War History, along with plenty of other random allusions. If those don't excite you might check out his fairy tale book "The Big Over Easy", but there may be some tawdry bits in not remembering - I did like it a bit better, though.

[8filltheheart]

Dracula might work.  My kids have loved it and non-detectives are doing detective work to find Dracula.

[Lori D.]

Check out this Wikipedia article: "Mystery Fiction", which lays out a brief history of the genre, and explains the main sub-genres within the genre. Below are ideas -- I was trying to cover a variety of time-span, including some "roots" of mystery genre, the "classic" mystery authors, as well as mystery as a way of exploring other cultures, and mystery intertwined with other genres.

Be sure to cover literary elements that are heavily among the conventions of the mystery/detective genre: suspense, conflict, the theme of the moral order upended (with the solving of the crime and catching the criminal restoring the moral order)

What a super-fun study you guys are going to have! 😄 Warmest regards, Lori D.

__________________________

short stories
1841 - "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" -- Edgar Allen Poe; short story described as the first modern murder mystery 
1843 - "The Gold Bug" (Poe) -- more of a puzzle-solving short story than a murder mystery
1910s - a Father Brown mystery (Chesterton) -- GK Chesterton was a huge driving force in mystery writing in Britain in the early 20th century; I'd suggest the first 3-4 stories in The Innocence of Father Brown, as they introduce the character AND are connected, while still being complete/separate stories
1931 - "Strychnine in the Soup" (Wodehouse) -- hilarious; a parody of a mystery/crime story; Wodehouse is a genius at humor, and it's fun to see that paired with mystery

plays
1952 - The Mousetrap (Christie) -- classic whodunnit by the Grand Dame; see if you can watch a performance -- very fun!
1954 - Twelve Angry Men (Rose) -- the uncovering of the truth during a jury deliberation!; Henry Fonda stars in the classic film version

novellas
1886 - The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (Stevenson) -- part gothic, part speculative fiction; part mystery

novels
1817 - Northanger Abbey (Austen) -- sort of a "roots of mystery" novel -- it is a parody of gothic novels of the 1700s (esp. The Mystery of Udolpho by Anne Radcliffe), with the heroine imagining there is a dark secret hanging over the household that she is visiting, that she feels she must solve
1868 - The Moonstone (Collins) -- considered the first mystery novel ever

1930s - Gaudy Night, or, Strong Poison (Sayers) -- definitely include the other British mystery Grand Dame and her Peter Wimsey character
1930s - The Big Sleep (Chandler), and/or, The Maltese Falcon (Hammett) -- classic American "hard boiled private eye novels -- then watch the film versions and compare
1938 - Rebecca (du Marier) -- atmospheric, modern gothic; protagonist tries to find out why her predecessor Rebecca died

1951 - The Daughter of Time (Tey) -- the "unknown" British mystery Grand Dame; unraveling of a 15th century mystery by a contemporary detective recovering in the hospital; Josephine Tey's writing is exquisite

1962 - Something Wicked This Way Comes (Bradbury) -- suspense, light horror, somewhat of a mystery as the characters try to figure out how to escape, and then expose,  the evil carnival

1988 - A Thief of Time (Hillerman) -- (or other in the series) a wonderful glimpse into Native 4-Corners culture; adult content but not gratuitous; check out this article about the author, with excerpts from some of his books

2001 - The Eyre Affaire (Fforde) -- speculative fiction + adventure + mystery + humor; GREAT fun and very clever
2003 - The Full Cupboard of Life (Smith) -- 5th in the series, but it's a good jumping-in point, and stands-alone well; gentle, at times humorous, with the majority of crimes being non-violent, and stemming from human nature, with the common sense of the detective, Mma Ramatswe, restoring the moral order with her generous heart 
2009 - Finding Nouf (Ferraris) -- adult/gritty, so PREVIEW; fascinating look at crime and police at work in the very fundamentalistic Islamic Saudi Arabia

2011 - The Night Circus (Morgenstern) -- fantastical/speculative fiction, with a main character trying to discover "what happened" -- another carnival setting, this would be good paired with Something Wicked...

Edited May 27, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Haha! I assembled my list and posted BEFORE I saw recommendations from others! Great minds think alike! 😉 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

Dd#3 requested detective (murder/mystery)-themed lit as part of Literature for English 10...

Seriously, this would be EASY to do a full year course on this genre! 😄 And if you add in "roots of detective / mystery" literature, you definitely get some great works in there:

400s BC - Oedipus the King (Sophocles)
Solves the riddle (mystery) of the Sphinx; and the interlocking events that cause him to (unwittingly) destroy the moral order (which is a major theme in mysteries).

1811 - 1001 Arabian Nights
First English translation published, but the collection goes back 1000 years earlier in Arabic. Has sometimes been considered an early precursor to mysteries, as the stories were started one night, and left as a cliffhanger ("how will they resolve?").

1390s - Canterbury Tales: "Wife of Bath's Tale" (Chaucer)
Sometimes thought of as the "Loathly Lady" tale; the Wife of Bath tells this story of King Arthur's court: the queen presents a knight with a challenge ("mystery" to solve): in one year, go questing and discover what women want most in the world 

1847 - Jane Eyre (Bronte)
The mysterious sounds and events going on in Mr. Rochester's home; the mystery comes out: his first wife is still alive, but mad, and he almost married Jane! (up-ending the moral order!); order is restored with the burning down of the house, Mr. Rochester trying to save his first wife, and is injured (paying the cost for his near "crime").

[Farrar]

Um, how did no one mention In Cold Blood by Truman Capote? Or The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler? (Oops, I missed it, Lori did mention Raymond Chandler!)

I do think I'd include something recent. Maybe even a couple of something recents. A Louise Penny novel or Girl with a Dragon Tattoo or something.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Farrar

[Lori D.]

9 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Um, how did no one mention In Cold Blood by Truman Capote? Or The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler?

I do think I'd include something recent. Maybe even a couple of something recents. A Louise Penny novel or Girl with a Dragon Tattoo or something.

Good one! I meant to add In Cold Blood.

And... I DO have the Big Sleep -- AND  4 contemporary (2000s) ideas on my list above! 😄 

I LOVE Louise Penny, but maybe too adult and slow-building for a 15yo... And how graphic is Dragon Tattoo?

And even more than any concern about appropriateness for age of student -- does Dragon Tattoo have any LITERARY merit? Is it WORTH taking one of the limited spots in a lit. line-up? Is there enough to DISCUSS with the book, beyond just contemporary setting... I haven't read that one, so I don't know anything about it, and would love insight. 😄 

Just thinking aloud. 😉

Edited May 27, 2021 by Lori D.

[Aloha2U]

Mr. Monk Book Series – Lee Goldberg

https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CKBTZJE/

Edited May 27, 2021 by Mom21

[El...]

I love this idea. I'm taking notes!

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has some signficant, explicit s****l abuse, which might be too much for some teens. It's important to the story, but it's hard to read. 

[Loesje22000]

I had to read some Judge Dee stories during Highschool: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/499653.Judge_Dee_at_Work?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=jNv50vsww8&rank=16 

A Chinese mysterie has a totally different set up then I was used to, but it might be a nice addition if you need something for comparative writing / discussing assignments. 
 

It might be not really grade 10 literature standard, but nice to balance your program.

[MamaSprout]

I like the list Lori posted. I have not read some of the most modern ones, though.

I can second the Josephine Tey book and "Innocence of Father Brown".

I really like Dorothy Sayer's short stories for Sir Peter before some of the longer novels.

I know there are some collections of short stories from Agatha Christie. "Masterpieces in Miniature" seems to be pretty complete. I like those because they contain Tommy and Tuppance as well as Harley Quinn (who was one of her favorite characters) in addition to Poirot and Miss Marple. I would almost recommend a collection plus something stand alone like "And Then There Were None"

Wodehouse has a full-on mystery? I know what I need to track down to read! Love his Jeeves stories (the golf ones... not so much).

Edited May 27, 2021 by MamaSprout

[El...]

I'm full of cautionary notes this week... sorry. But you should be warned. I got an unabridged paperback of the complete Father Brown to hand my kid, and read some first. Whew!

In The Innocence of Father Brown, Chesterton used n------ to describe someone by race. Then the main characters describe lynching as an understandable impulse because the black (criminal) character is doing a "cakewalk." I loved the stories as a teen, but I must have had a revised version. This copy would have set my idealistic teen's hair on fire. 

[cintinative]

Most of this is duplicative of the other posts, but I wanted to provide the stories we read for some of the anthologies in case that is helpful.

We read some of the Father Brown stories, but not all. I listed them below. I can't remember where I got this list, but I think it was here on the forums.

“The Blue Cross” “The Secret Garden” “The Queer Feet” “The Flying Stars” “The Invisible Man”   We read Strong Poison by Dorothy Sayers,  The Murders on the Rue Morgue, The Hound of the Baskervilles For Sherlock Holmes, there are tons but we read these: “The Red-Headed League” “A Scandal in Bohemia” “The Blue Carbuncle” “The Speckled Bard” We also read Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie   What about The Invisible Man by H.G. Wells?  It's not a traditional murder/mystery book but it has some of those elements.

[theelfqueen]

How about Name of the Rose? 

And a weird modern suggestion - Devil In the White City (which my 20 year old loved in 11th grade).

Edited May 27, 2021 by theelfqueen

[MamaSprout]

3 hours ago, elroisees said:

I'm full of cautionary notes this week... sorry. But you should be warned. I got an unabridged paperback of the complete Father Brown to hand my kid, and read some first. Whew!

In The Innocence of Father Brown, Chesterton used n------ to describe someone by race. Then the main characters describe lynching as an understandable impulse because the black (criminal) character is doing a "cakewalk." I loved the stories as a teen, but I must have had a revised version. This copy would have set my idealistic teen's hair on fire. 

Is that in the first few stories if Innocence? I recalled it being later and maybe in the other collection. That’s why I didn’t say anything. I’m glad you spoke up. ETA- Now I’m wondering if maybe there is an updated version, like with the Hugh Lofting books.

Edited May 27, 2021 by MamaSprout

[MamaSprout]

51 minutes ago, theelfqueen said:

 

And a weird modern suggestion - Devil In the White City (which my 20 year old loved in 11th grade).

Not weird at all- I’ve seen this taught in college classes. The writing is excellent.

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

...Wodehouse has a full-on mystery? I know what I need to track down to read! Love his Jeeves stories (the golf ones... not so much).

Wodehouse on Crime -- It's a collection of short stories based around "crime" -- things like stealing a book, or using a pea-shooter to get rid of an unwanted guest. It's all of Wodehouse's different reoccurring upperclass characters, doing very childish type of mischief that are "crimes". One or two are Jeeves & Wooster stories, and there's a Lord Emsworth of Blandings Castle (the Lord who raises pigs). In that list above, I linked the full text of the story that you can read online. Enjoy! 😄

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, theelfqueen said:

... And a weird modern suggestion - Devil In the White City (which my 20 year old loved in 11th grade).

Eek! Yes, fascinating, but the serial killer parts were SO very disturbing, that I had to skip those chapters and just read the parts on how they went about setting up the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago. 😩 So, preview if you have a student who would internalize or dwell too much on the serial killer doing dreadful things to men, women, and children.

[LLucy]

Has The Maltese Falcon been suggested yet? 

Wikipedia has an entry specifically for detective fiction, and quite a few syllabi are available online for this genre, too, that show the scope of the development of the detective character.

Most selections can be followed up with movies, too -- my boys would have loved this class!

--LL

 

 

[royspeed]

I've enjoyed the "Spenser" series of detective novels by Robert B. Parker. — Favorite so far: Looking for Rachel Wallace.

I would also second The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep.

In all such novels, I think we're seeing descendants of the Knights of the Round Table and the chivalric code.

I feel emboldened by Lori D's more outrageous suggestions (Wife of Bath's Tale, Jane Eyre) to mention what I consider one of the earliest detective stories: Shakespeare's Hamlet. — Explanation: The ghost of Hamlet's father, the king, tells Hamlet that he was murdered by his own brother (Claudius). Implications: The crown has been stolen, usurped. But there's a problem with the ghost's testimony: in Elizabethan England, a ghost was not automatically assumed to be the spirit of a dead person; rather, a ghost was believed to be a demon — and in particular, a demon adopting the guise of someone familiar to you, recently dead, in order to lure you into some evil. (Close reading of the text reveals this to be Hamlet's belief.)

So what the play is about is Hamlet attempting to solve a mystery: 

• Has the ghost spoken the truth? — Did Hamlet's uncle really kill Hamlet's father?
• Or is the ghost a demon, speaking lies to lure Hamlet into murdering his own uncle?

Hamlet has to find the evidence...

[theelfqueen]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

Eek! Yes, fascinating, but the serial killer parts were SO very disturbing, that I had to skip those chapters and just read the parts on how they went about setting up the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago. 😩 So, preview if you have a student who would internalize or dwell too much on the serial killer doing dreadful things to men, women, and children.

My middle child is not easily disturbed and liked to feel "edgy" so I sometimes assigned him heavier topics that challenged that and appealed to him. He loves horror stories and dark psychology.

Night not Anne Frank got a serious and deep reaction- definitely more disturbing but  better fit for him. He wept openly the day Elie Wiesel died.

This is the weird kid I assigned Superman vs the KKK and Argo - cause I had to find hooks. Also the kid who at 4 was having Tea parties with Gollum.

Edited May 27, 2021 by theelfqueen

[MamaSprout]

9 minutes ago, theelfqueen said:

My middle child is not easily disturbed and liked to feel "edgy" so I sometimes assigned him heavier topics that challenged that and appealed to him. He loves horror stories and dark psychology.

Night not Anne Frank got a serious and deep reaction- definitely more disturbing but  better fit for him. He wept openly the day Elie Wiesel died.

This is the weird kid I assigned Superman vs the KKK and Argo - cause I had to find hooks. Also the kid who at 4 was having Tea parties with Gollum.

I also need to remember this when I make lit suggestions. My last dd loves Argo-type spy thrillers and other books I probably shouldn't admit she's read (mostly language and intensity). But we talk about every.thing., so I'm okay with it.

[El...]

5 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

Is that in the first few stories if Innocence? I recalled it being later and maybe in the other collection. That’s why I didn’t say anything. I’m glad you spoke up. ETA- Now I’m wondering if maybe there is an updated version, like with the Hugh Lofting books.

Ah. I double checked. It's in The Wisdom of Father Brown, at least the one I'm thinking of. I must admit, I didn't keep the book on my shelves.  I recycled it. I'm sick and tired of finding out that my childhood heroes were racist you-know-whats.

[MamaSprout]

32 minutes ago, elroisees said:

Ah. I double checked. It's in The Wisdom of Father Brown, at least the one I'm thinking of. I must admit, I didn't keep the book on my shelves.  I recycled it. I'm sick and tired of finding out that my childhood heroes were racist you-know-whats.

I did not give the second collection to Dd to read... so that makes sense. I have always at least skimmed older books for racist content before handing them off.

We don’t know that Chesterton would have been racist if he lived in our place and at our time. 

I’m not willing to accept it as okay (or give it to my kids to read), but as an adult I can understand that literature from 100 years ago has unacceptable language and ideas- and not just racism. 

I had a similar experience with a living hero. Turns out he was extremely sexist. No reprieve in my mind for a modern man who can know better. 

[mathnerd]

Dashiell Hammet's works - don't know if it was mentioned upthread. Especially The Maltese Falcon, The Thin Man.

Erle Stanley Gardner's Perry Mason series.

[stripe]

9 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

Is that in the first few stories if Innocence? I recalled it being later and maybe in the other collection. That’s why I didn’t say anything. I’m glad you spoke up. ETA- Now I’m wondering if maybe there is an updated version, like with the Hugh Lofting books.

I found this from “The Wrong Shape” in Innocence

They all three (for the doctor had joined them) turned involuntarily towards the dim grassy bank amid the tossing trees purple with twilight, where they had last seen the brown man swaying in his strange prayers. The Indian was gone. 

"Confound him," cried the doctor, stamping furiously. "Now I know that it was that nigger that did it." 

"I thought you didn't believe in magic," said Father Brown quietly. 

"No more I did," said the doctor, rolling his eyes. "I only know that I loathed that yellow devil when I thought he was a sham wizard. And I shall loathe him more if I come to think he was a real one."

[stripe]

Easy Rawlins mysteries by Walter Mosley combine social / racial justice with that old timey PI vibe

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, stripe said:

I found this from “The Wrong Shape” in Innocence

They all three (for the doctor had joined them) turned involuntarily towards the dim grassy bank amid the tossing trees purple with twilight, where they had last seen the brown man swaying in his strange prayers. The Indian was gone. 

"Confound him," cried the doctor, stamping furiously. "Now I know that it was that nigger that did it." 

"I thought you didn't believe in magic," said Father Brown quietly. 

"No more I did," said the doctor, rolling his eyes. "I only know that I loathed that yellow devil when I thought he was a sham wizard. And I shall loathe him more if I come to think he was a real one."

And yet Father Brown (who, as the protagonist, in a way speaks for the author Chesterton), does not blame the Indian nor is he racist, and the doctor's loud protesting and racist name-calling is all to divert suspicion from himself, because the doctor IS the murderer -- and with a very nasty worldview. He leaves Father Brown with this confession note:

“...I loved Quinton’s [murdered man's] wife. What was there wrong in that? I also thought that she would be happier with a clean animal like me than with that tormenting little lunatic. What was there wrong in that? I was only facing facts, like a man of science... According to my own creed I was quite free to kill Quinton, which was the best thing for everybody, even himself. But as a healthy animal I had no notion of killing myself. I resolved, therefore, that I would never do it until I saw a chance that would leave me scot free. I saw that chance this morning... When I had done it, the extraordinary thing happened. Nature deserted me. I felt ill. I felt just as if I had done something wrong. I think my brain is breaking up; I feel some sort of desperate pleasure in thinking I have told the thing to somebody... What is the matter with me?...Madness...or can one have remorse, just as if one were in Byron’s poems! I cannot write any more."

Context is critical. In this case, the racism was a being used as a red herring by the guilty party, but it also reveals the guilty party's moral superiority complex in thinking he was better than *everyone* and was justified in doing whatever he saw as being right in his own eyes.


Yes, in other of Chesterton's writings he expresses the occasional statement of racism (that African Americans were mentally inferior and so they were happy as slaves -- a prevalent view of the first half of the 20th century), and anti-Semitism (which was the prevailing view of Europe from the Middle Ages up until WW2). The majority of his writing that I have read does not contain these types of statements or ideas. But those instances where those ideas are expressed are WRONG. I do not excuse or condone it. 

BUT, those attitudes and ways of thinking were part of the culture at large for a very very long time.

And, JMO,  it is important to understand that, in order to decide how to handle Chesterton. Ignore it? Process it personally and come to terms with it? Discuss it with others? Promote for an edited version? Expunge the author from one's personal library? Expunge it from all libraries? Ban the book/author in all formats? Something else...?

And really, it's a process for EVERY author. Because every author has a bias or flawed thinking somewhere along the line. And that is overtly, or subtly, going to be hurtful to someone somewhere. Again, context, and overall intent, is critical.

Just my 2 cents for the day. 😉 And, thanks for tracking down that quotation, @stripe! I appreciate the good food for thought that provided! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[stripe]

I definitely agree the context makes a huge difference, and your explanation is helpful, but it would be good to know about that and not have a nasty surprise if you hadn’t pre-read it! Like (for example), “wait, I thought it was Christian-themed and now we’ve got that?!” 
As for me, I don’t know anything about Fr Brown and have only watched one episode of the tv shows! Ha. 

[MamaSprout]

8 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Context is critical. In this case, the racism was a being used as a red herring by the guilty party, but it also reveals the guilty party's moral superiority complex in thinking he was better than *everyone* and was justified in doing whatever he saw as being right in his own eyes.

Yes, in other of Chesterton's writings he expresses the occasional statement of racism (that African Americans were mentally inferior and so they were happy as slaves -- a prevalent view of the first half of the 20th century), and anti-Semitism (which was the prevailing view of Europe from the Middle Ages up until WW2). The majority of his writing that I have read does not contain these types of statements or ideas. But those instances where those ideas are expressed are WRONG. I do not excuse or condone it. 

BUT, those attitudes and ways of thinking were part of the culture at large for a very very long time.

And, JMO,  it is important to understand that, in order to decide how to handle Chesterton. Ignore it? Process it personally and come to terms with it? Discuss it with others? Promote for an edited version? Expunge the author from one's personal library? Expunge it from all libraries? Ban the book/author in all formats? Something else...?

 

These are conversations that happen in literary circles all the time. Think about Huckleberry Finn.