What do you wish you had read/seen/listened to before beginning homeschooling?

[GoodnightMoogle]

Title says it all. This is my first post here (probably the first of many) and I’m looking for your favorite resources that influenced your homeschooling philosophy.

I’m just a lady with a degree in education and a brand-new baby who came to the conclusion that homeschooling is what I want for him.

So give me what you got. I’ve read “The Well-Trained Mind,” (a few times 0.0) and have a smattering of authors on my shelf, from the Clarksons and a few other Charlotte Mason lovers to John Holt and the unschooling squad. If you squint closely at my bookshelf, you’ll even find that somewhere between a couple of Montessori books is one by Douglas Wilson, who I have decided I do not like at all! 
 

Classical education  (or neo-classical, I suppose, yes, I’ve lurked here for a while and read many a thread 😂) does, however, resonate me. I’m slowly building my philosophy of education. What an impossible feat! How can I say with confidence exactly what I want for my child’s education? 
 

To be a good, Christ-loving man? To be hardworking and a lifelong seeker of knowledge? To be virtuous and wise? To be knowledgeable in many subjects? So many things make up a philosophy of education! 

Please, indulge me by listing the works that helped you formed your own, the ones you did read and the ones you wished you had read.

If you made it this far, thank you all for reading this! I have many years ahead of me before my homeschool journey begins and I look forward to engaging with many of the works you all recommend,  as well as listening to your own stories 🙂 

[Lori D.]

Welcome!

In the summer before we started homeschooling (DSs were going into 1st and 2nd grades), I was very blessed to speak with several dear friends who had been homeschooling for a number of years before we started homeschooling; I went to our state's homeschool convention and got to hear some great speakers on "getting started" topics; and I read The Well-Trained Mind. Oh--and I read through the Rainbow Resource catalog, which, at that time, was small enough to have length explanations about the programs and products, which really helped visualize the materials and how they were used, to be able to see if they would be a good fit for us -- or not.

Between all of that, I feel like I was as well prepared in advance as I could be. From there, it was the "learning by doing" for all of us, as well as discovering some previously unknown learning disabilities, and doing tons of research in our first years of homeschooling to get that figured out.


When our DS#1 was born, we tentatively planned on homeschooling, but for several reasons we decided to start with the good quality Christian private school for kindergarten. At the end of his 1st grade year, the school had decided to make a radical shift that we did not feel was in our children's best interest, and at that time, we brought them both home -- and never looked back from homeschooling all the way through.

I mention this, because 'the best laid plans' can change. So while it's wonderful to be thinking ahead to homeschooling, realize that your family's circumstances may change, which may necessitate changing your educational plans.

Just my 2 cents worth: with having a newborn baby, for right now, I'd spend time loving him, provide a book-rich environment and read, read, read, read to him every day. When he is a toddler/pre-schooler/kindergartener, slowly work on developing age-appropriate good life habits of attitude/choices, a schedule/helping with chores, and provide lots of time and materials for imaginative play and exploration, while continuing to read, read, read, read to him every day.

And as you have time for yourself, read widely and self-educate in all sorts of areas. Everything is of use, and since there is more knowledge than any one person can every know, take your time and enjoy your own self education journey.

As another poster who has long-since graduated her children from homeschooling used to say at the end of her posts: Enjoy your journey, enjoy your little people!

Warmest regards, Lori D.

[GoodnightMoogle]

Thanks for sharing your own experience 🙂 I definitely do love my little guy! But sometimes I need a podcast to listen to during those long times rocking him to get him to sleep 😂

I love the simplicity of how you got started. Well-Trained-Mind, a homeschool mega catalogue, and you were ready to give it a whirl. I also have a rainbow resource catalogue, not because I’m trying to force academics on a tiny one, but because I genuinely enjoy looking at curriculum! That’s the teacher in me I suppose. I think part of it stems from enjoyment of learning, and another from perhaps a dissatisfaction with my own education and looking at “what could have been.” 
 

I’m not looking for stuff to “do” (other than read lots of fun books) with my son. Rather, I am, as you said, seeking to educate myself. I enjoy learning about different philosophies of education as I wrestle with my own. I know it will change when (if it all works out that way) I do get to homeschool, but I’d like to at least have some confidence in my own beliefs around education before I get started.
 

The funny thing is, for my MAE I had to write a statement on my “philosophy of education.” I can’t stand what I wrote now! It’s so generic and clearly what was expected of me going into the public schools. So little real, in depth thought. For the first time, I want to put real thought into what I am doing.

That’s why I was asking for recommendations. Surely you have come across an article or a book that really inspired you as a homeschooler! I’d love to read those things that inspired others, even if I don’t end up agreeing with them myself. 
 

 

[almondbutterandjelly]

You might read The Latin Centered Curriculum by Campbell.  It's interesting.  We didn't go that route, but considered it.  Read Susan Wise Bauer's Writing with Ease book.  Ruth Beechick's the Three R's.  

For me, because my child was a non-traditional learner, I really liked Dianne Craft's articles online.  I also read Visual Spatial Learners by Golon and The Right Side of Normal by Gaddis.

Learning Outside the Lines by Mooney was an interesting book.  More biographical but very interesting.

 

[Susan in TX]

My personal educational philosophy has been formed by John Holt, Charlotte Mason, and Susan Wise Bauer.

For Charlotte Mason I would start with volume 1 of her Home Education series. You can also read it free online here. 

John Holt: How Children Learn, How Children Fail, What Do I do Monday? , Learning All the Time

Also anything by John Taylor Gatto.

 

Susan in TX

[73349]

Maybe you would like Sarah Mackenzie's Teaching from Rest?

I think now is a great time for you to read up on other topics, actually. One of the best things for my child's education has been just engaging in conversation about events/ideas/phenomena, and knowing where to look for resources when something catches his interest. He loves history (which I didn't like as a kid, probably because it was done so badly in schools) and science (which I 💚, but my education in physics in particular did not go as far as his interests do)--it would have helped if I had spent time deepening my understanding of those before he was preschool-aged.

Maybe for you, there's something else that will turn out to be a good choice to dive into right now--math, art history, government, a new language? Or follow your own bunny trails when a news article or conversation makes you realize you might want more of a subject.

[Lori D.]

These threads from the past year raise similar questions, and have some great "bunny trails" to explore:
"Your favorite books/lectures on teaching"
"What does it mean to be educated?"
"How instruction impacts learning"

You may find posts by WTM poster @8fillthehearton using the Jesuit philosophy of education--with a pedagogy of prediction, reflection, active learning, repetition and critical thinking--to be interesting and helpful. (For example, see her posts in the threads linked above, and in:  "Formulating Great Questions".)

Some past threads with discussion of various educational philosophies may be of interest to you, and would provide you with a bit of background about the educational philosophies and the proponents of the different educational philosophies:

"Who's 'pulling the strings' in classical Christian education?"
"What makes the classical approach to Language Arts rigorous?"
"Fr. Francis P. Donnelly, SJ"
"Classical Educational Movement"
"Natural" learning and education" -- discussion of John Holt & Charlotte Mason 
"Support for designing your own curriculum"
"Ella Frances Lych thread #3: New Frontiers" -- discussion on Ella Frances Lynch's ideas, but ranges widely from there 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Lori D.

[GoodnightMoogle]

Lori D. you have given me a goldmine. Can't wait to dive down these threads!

Carolina Wren, educating myself has been on my mind a lot lately. My math education in particular was very lackluster compared to the way it is taught in many schools nowadays, and I know that if I want to teach it well  one day I am going to need to understand the more conceptual methods myself. I am going to begin by reading Lipping Ma's book and seeing where that takes me. As for my own interests, I have always wanted to read and study more of the Great Books but I am , admittedly, intimidated. I think I need to just start and do it slowly but it would be helpful to have some sort of guide to follow, or at least have a friend reading them with me. I feel like Great Books need to be discussed with others to get the full richness of them. Well, maybe that's true of any book! It can't hurt to at least begin reading some. If I had a thousand dollars to spend and I didn't dislike Douglas Wilson so much I would buy  Omnibus for myself! I need a dollar store Great Books education, please. 🤣 

Susan, I have read so many interpretations of Charlotte Mason; I really need to sit myelf down and read what the woman herself actually had to say.  Thanks for the link! That's gonna be a nice project for next year. Also, I'm not an unschooler (as of this moment in time) but I love Holt. The man spoke to me deeply at a hard time in my career; I saw a lot of what he wrote about when I worked in the public schools. 

Perky, I go back and forth on the importance of Latin in a child's education, and am not sure what my current opinion on it is. I do like Memoria Press from what I have seen, though, and I know their curriculum is kind of based on LCC so  I think I will check it out one day. I wonder if Latin is really as useful as they claim, or if it is more of an eliteist niche thing to teach a child intead Latin in place of a modern language? No shade, I genuinely want to know more about that topic . 

Thanks for the recommendations so far! I love adding to my reading list, especially since I have been stuck at home 😕 . 

[daijobu]

This is a long video, but this link will take you past the introduction and start you about 7 minutes in.  Watch about 5 minutes of what Rusczyk has to say about math education and if it resonates, watch the whole video.  

I've seen this personally and and was the primary reason for homeschooling my daughters.    

[PeterPan]

I don't know, I read so many things and they all sorta had an influence and were all sort of incomplete and sometimes even warped or misleading. 

If you read someone else's homeschooling, you're reading THEIR story, not YOUR story. If you read and want to emulate someone else, you're following their path, not yours. If you read about what worked for THEIR kids, you're not honing in on YOUR kids.

Best two pieces of advice?

1) get your photographs in order.

2) talk to your spouse. 

Your kids are likely to be like one or both of their bio parents, so the best way to figure out what will or will not likely work for the kids is to interview the bio parents. Not always possible, but if possible. 

On the photographs, well corollary is cooking and house cleaning, decluttering. But mainly photographs. They kind of creep up on you and you're about to take a lot. 

Best third/fourth pieces of advice?

3) Read your Bible. Everything you're going to do flows out of you. What you value, what you love, what you want to communicate. Corollary is take care of yourself. (exercise, dentist, etc.)

4) Buy the WTM. Tidy outline, long term useful. As far as *philosophy*? Oh my. Like I said, I read so many popular people from when I started. That was like 19 years ago and they were names people don't talk about now so much. I don't think any of them had the niche. And some are still in the homeschooling movement doing things. There was (removing name) lady, and she's fine. But you know, her book didn't help ME teach MY kids. My kids have ADHD and ASD and SLDs and executive function issues and really needed stuff. That's nice to read "if you do this, your kids will do such and such by such and such age" but that's THEIR story. You're going to have to look at YOUR kids and teach THEM as unique individuals. That's it.

My hindsight, looking at my friends from a lot of years of homeschooling? Teach your values, teach what you love, and don't get distracted. It's very easy to get distracted by what you think is important. Figure out what to you is *most* important and how to prioritize it. Some of that will be *caught* by you living it. They'll figure out what you love. Or as Christ put it, the student will be like his teacher.

Edited December 6, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I need a dollar store Great Books education, please. 🤣 

You can have that! You can use online/pdf versions that you can get for free or try the library. Our library system has zero fines for all users. If yours doesn't, join the library board and make it happen. 

When I was at your stage, I had a lot of time to read. I think your drive right now is right to read, fill in your own gaps. You could read history textbooks, GB, whatever you want. You can get the books from the Omnibus reading lists and start working through them. You don't need Douglas Wilson's opinions, mercy. I had some of the Omnibus texts and we ended up not using them. When your kids get to that stage, they may have their own direction and bent. Instead I did Christian philosophy books with dd. Just seemed to fit her. But for working on your own self education, sure, go for it!!

14 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

Also, I'm not an unschooler (as of this moment in time) but I love Holt. The man spoke to me deeply at a hard time in my career; I saw a lot of what he wrote about when I worked in the public schools. 

Ok, fwiw, I read a *lot* of unschooler stuff when I was getting started. Like everything from the library plus a pile of gems/classics an unschooler friend brought me. You can't go wrong reading unschooling stuff because it's such a nice *counterbalance* to the other things you're going to read. Then you sort of filter through it yourself and see where your kids are and what they need and what meets them where they are. Being conversant on a range of schools of thought lets you CHOOSE what will it your kids. You don't need to "pick" a philosophy. You simply are aware of them, aware of what you value, and then look at your kids.

https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Education-Mandate-Educators-Bookshelf/dp/0890846391  So here's a $6 option for you, something in the TOTAL OPPOSITE direction, hahaha. Dr. Horton who wrote this was a profound thinker and he's going to dig deep on issues affecting a christian philosophy of education. So when you're talking THEORY, there you go. And when you're talking IN THE TRENCHES and what does this look like and how do I live that out, well then you've got all this other stuff. (Simply Charlotte Mason, WTM, unschooling, etc. etc.)

I think one of the problems I've always had (and maybe other new homeschoolers have) is trying to do too much. I've learned more and more to look for the simplest way and to keep my priorities focused. You're not going to do everything. You're starting out and it seems LONG, like 18 years is LONG. And it's so, so short. Just saying. 

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I wonder if Latin is really as useful as they claim

The question is not whether it's useful. The question is at what cost? If the dc can do it with ease and enjoys the stimulation, it's a no brainer to do it. The more disabilities the dc has, the more you're going to question that. I did some with my dd and she enjoyed it, could understand it, but found the processing fatiguing. It's part of her ADHD to have very low processing speed. There was value, but the cost was not worth it and after several years we tossed. With my ds, who has more significant disabilities, we've never even tried. He's aware of roots and that will have to do. 

So it depends on the dc. I have a friend who was homeschooled for whom her generous latin background was a HUGE boon. She tutored it in grad school and it gave her the springboard to multiple other languages. It's no doubt beneficial. But for her it had little cost as she had no disabilities and could do it with ease, with no sacrifice. You'll just look at your kids. 

Ok, on the MP/Logos/DW/etc thing, I'll just say discretely that what wasn't clear to me from their writings became clear as I *met* the people. When you go to homeschool conventions (which you can't now but will hopefully get to in a year or two when the mess blows over!), you'll meet these people. You'll start to see the differences in where they're coming from, what they value, and you'll know what you want. For instance, I UTTERLY ADORE Marcia Somerville. I think she has a book on education Love the Journey. That woman encapsulates what I value and where I am, definitely admire her. I haven't used her curriculum TOG (except for bits) because it didn't fit my situations. But when I met her, a lot of where she was coming from and why she was doing what she was doing made sense. 

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/company/products/ltj.php  Here's her book btw. Might be just what you're wanting. 

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

if it is more of an eliteist niche thing

One of the things homeschoolers often find is they're *different* from others or even different from other homeschoolers. If you do something consistently, you're likely to make progress. If you work with diligence, it's likely to show. 

So whether it's latin or excelling at math or just being good at life skills, your kids may be different. You may get the elitist reception ANYWAY. You're going to be different anyway. 

So I go back to my point. Look at your kids and do what fits your kids. Now you can work at excelling to the point where it's a total distraction from something else you valued more, sure. But homeschoolers often excel simply because it's easier to be diligent. 

[PeterPan]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:11 PM, GoodnightMoogle said:

Douglas Wilson, who I have decided I do not like at all! 

Yeah, he came to a homeschool convention I was at. I stood in the back of the room near him while he listened to his wife speak, and then I listened to him. His wife is great btw, but him, nope. Omnibus went in the sell pile. 

Like I said, a lot of this will be clear to you after you start going to conventions. There was this writing program that was crazy popular for a while, and it was almost like "if you were smart enough you could understand how great this program is"... Then I went to a convention and realized even the people REPPING it didn't understand it, lol. It was the program, not me. 

Homeschoolers have a lot of hutspah. We pretty much look at all the professions and say we're willing to become experts in it too. And to me, that's what experts do. They read widely and form their own opinions.

I will give you a little launch. The single greatest place to get addicted at the stage you're at is Timberdoodle. Can't go wrong spending your money there, and you'll learn a lot by imbibing their simple philosophy in their views and catalog commentary. https://timberdoodle.com Or put another way, my life would have been a lot simpler if I had just done whatever the Timberdoodle catalog said and called it good. They have a lot of common sense, and after years of over complicating I really respect that. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by PeterPan

[daijobu]

More math reading from Liping Ma.  

[Hunter]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

If you read someone else's homeschooling, you're reading THEIR story, not YOUR story.

3) Read your Bible. Everything you're going to do flows out of you. What you value, what you love, what you want to communicate. Corollary is take care of yourself. (exercise, dentist, etc.)

Teach your values, teach what you love, and don't get distracted. It's very easy to get distracted by what you think is important. Figure out what to you is *most* important and how to prioritize it. 

This is such excellent advice, Peter Pan!

If you do not already know who YOU are, spend this time figuring that out. Many women orbit and obey others so much that they have no idea who they are are. Self-discovery requires trying things and monitoring your response.

You said you want to read the Great Books. FIRST figure out WHY you want to read them, and make sure that is a good reason. Then if you want to proceed, start reading some of them yourself and be honest about how you feel as you read them. I was able to buy the Britannica Great Books collection for 50% off and what I learned reading them was that I could skip them entirely and just read my Bible, and come to same conclusion in the end. https://www.logos.com/product/55052/great-books-of-the-western-world . If you decide that you do indeed have a passion to read the Great Books for yourself, start another thread on that.

When you know who YOU are and then you read a homeschool book, you are able to take small ideas and adapt them to what you already have in motion. A mistake that many readers make is to scrap what they are doing and convert to the new "better" method. "Eclectic" is not what I mean and can be worse if it is like a home with purple velvet curtains, an orange shag rug, and pastel floral couch. Adapting would be like deciding you also want thicker curtains to block the sun and find a pair of drapes that matches YOUR decor; and wanting a rug in a warm color even though the author that inspired you suggested orange; and wanting a couch with a pattern to hide stains, even though the author insisted that it must be a pastel floral couch.

Homeschooling is a marathon and it is a LOT if work. Child-centered methods can burn a mom out, and leave her with no identity. This happens to some moms that arrive at homeschooling not knowing who they are. They orbit the children, and this can be worst than endlessly curriculum hopping. It is another method of following others and not knowing who YOU are. The best thing a new mom can do is self-educate, and get the education that she never had a chance to get earlier. Then bring your children along on YOUR ride. That is not selfish and that is not bad.

The first goal you mentioned was "christ-loving man". If the Bible is important to you, that is the greatest Great Book. So many homeschool literature-based methods can be adapted to using the Bible as the literature. Waldorf 1st grade lessons on Grimms Fairy Tales can be adapted to using the Bible. 

Find out what your library has for self-education resources. Also see if you can get a free card from other libraries, especially the library in the capital city. You can usually access all or some of the online resources from home, no matter how far away that they are.

Is there a language that YOU always wanted to learn? Learn that language and then teach it to your child. Once a child is exposed to language learning materials, they can learn another language on their own and they can choose that one. Their second language will be your second language and that is not selfish: no one is stopping them from learning a third or how many languages that they want to learn. They can self-educate just like you are self-educating.

How is your handwriting? Do you like it? Is it consistent and are you confident making your own flashcards and worksheets? Master a style of handwriting if you have not already done so. Are you and your husband right-handed? If so, and you already write with a right slant, Don Potter stuff is free and great. http://donpotter.net/pdf/direct_path_to_cursive.pdf If you or hubby is left-handed and has any print disabilities, and you think that might get passed onto children, I recommend Spalding Handwriting, and retaining the uppercase manuscript with the cursive lowercase, if and when you transition to cursive.

Before getting into any intensive phonics, I suggest becoming familiar with the pronunciation explanations of words that you know and then using this dictionary for words you encounter as you read. 

Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary, Large Print Edition

https://www.amazon.com/Merriam-Websters-Concise-Dictionary-Large-Newest/dp/0877796440

Your library should be able to get How to Tutor" by Blumenfeld. It widely available used

https://www.amazon.com/How-Tutor-Samuel-L-Blumenfeld/dp/0941995291/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=How+to+tutor+blumenfeld&qid=1607282348&s=books&sr=1-1

Betterworld Books has bulk sales on used books, that go as high as 20% off with free shipping and is my first choice for used books. Thrift books doesn't always send you the book that you chose, but are quick to refund you the money if you contact them.

https://www.betterworldbooks.com/

https://www.thriftbooks.com/

Are you able to draw a bit? Waldorf did not start the blackboard drawing idea. You can study this topic for free with books older than Waldorf. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=MDZV7QCpZ9UC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=blackboard+drawing&source=gbs_navlinks_s

https://books.google.com/books?id=2rg9AQAAMAAJ&dq=blackboard+drawing&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

Music and art: fill your home with music and art, and your child will copy you. Let your children orbit you. That is not selfish.

Cooking and crafts: read some Waldorf books about rhythm and cooking and handcrafts, but adapt them to YOUR belief system and resources. Learn a craft yourself and learn to bake yeast bread or something else.

Ella Frances Lynch books need to be real alongside anything Charlotte Mason. Her method of teaching reading using Hiawatha can be adapted to Psalms and Hymns or whatever poetry that YOU like (start reading at the top of page 75 of Educating the Child at Home).

https://leagueofteachermothers.wordpress.com/ella-frances-lynch/

Nature Study: People make a lot of money over-complicating this and then selling you things to make it "easier". Simply READ about Nature and watch youtube videos about whatever you read about. All the books being sold here are available for free elsewhere.

https://yesterdaysclassics.com/books/nature/

Read the introduction to Handbook of Nature Study and use the lists of questions for individual species as INSPIRATION for things to notice about whatever species that is in your own backyard. It is okay not to the know the name of what you are studying. Do not focus on naming. There was an author I read that refused to tell children the name of species, because she said as soon as they knew the name, they lost interest in it.

You do not need to combine your inside reading and documentary/youtube watching with your outdoor observations. They will eventually overlap.

Math: governments have reasons to push math, especially by recruiting from the lower-income populations. Do not get caught up in races to dominate the universe that need more and more math-soldiers. Few families should make math the center of their homeschool. Is hard not to do that with all the pressure. Adults need to be able to budget and understand the newspaper. And they need to be introduced to the beauty of math. It is not failing to choose not to prioritize math and to find ways to succeed without becoming one of the soldiers. Get sneaky and hide from the draft.

Start with your own education. Make it nurturing. When you get overwhelmed with study, STOP and just live and love. Life is short. LIVE it.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Hunter

[caffeineandbooks]

What a great question!  I, too, read WTM when my eldest was a baby, and read the first volume of Story of the World that year too.  I have been impressed by friends who've jumped into homeschooling mid-stream and done wonderful things, but for us it was decided years in advance and I'm thankful for the time to read, think, marinate in ideas.

One site I love is centerforlit.com.  I didn't get a great books education at school, but these folks are helping me get one now and helping me keep ahead of my kids.  They have several podcasts reading classics out loud (Radio Read Along), discussing books (How To Eat An Elephant) and discussing lit-education-related stuff (Bibliofiles).  Their Teaching the Classics seminar is a goldmine.

My teacher-turned-homeschooler friends tend to love stuff by the Circe Institute, though I personally find them a bit school-y (they're aimed at the Classical Christian school market and only secondarily at homeschoolers).  Plenty of free podcasts and recorded seminars there too.  I'm also slowly reading through books listed on Classical Academic Press's Classical Reader, the "Learning More About Classical Education" section.  I think it's freely available online, though I have the hard copy so I can mark it up 🙂  

If you haven't yet come across Dorothy Sayer's Lost Tools of Learning essay, the full text is reproduced here: https://classicalchristian.org/the-lost-tools-of-learning-dorothy-sayers/?v=a44707111a05

As well as the more serious stuff, I've appreciated several lighter, inspirational books that are practical, if not profound, and help me cut through the fog and see clearly again.  Among these are Teaching from Rest by Sarah Mackenzie, The Brave Learner by Julie Bogart, Adventuring Together by Greta Eskridge and Deconstructing Penguins by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone.

Congratulations on the arrival of your little man.  I hope that you enjoy these short years while he is tiny, and that you find the reading and thinking project you're embarking on to be life-giving and soul-widening, a blessing for your whole family.

[The Governess]

The Writing Revolution - writing text for K-8.

[Clemsondana]

I didn't read a lot about homeschooling ahead of time because I didn't necessarily plan to do it for long.  But, I had read about education in general and that included a few books about homeschooling.  What interested me was that people did it so differently.  I'll admit that my gut reaction is to avoid anybody who acts as if there is 'one true way' to do most things, and homeschooling is not an exception.  When I first started I had a couple of ideas that I wanted to pursue. 

Based on reading E.D. Hirsh, I wanted to include lots of content.  I didn't necessarily expect them to remember everything, but I wanted them to have exposure to a big world.  I joke that I wanted kids that were fun to take to museums, because I had observed that kids who know stuff were more interested in learning from the exhibits, and I figured it was probably at least in part because they had 'hooks' to put the new information on - it would be overwhelming to absorb an entire kids museum or zoo if you knew literally nothing!  

I wanted them to have time to develop their own interests and learn to entertain themselves.  When they were young, I was done with seat work by noon.  I set aside stretches where I wanted them to be independent.  I encouraged wandering around, playing in mud, taking a few old jars out to make magic potions out of water and weeds, etc.  Even with teens who are active in sports and thus busy I try to make sure that there is time that is theirs.  There are those that advocate physical work as part of a homeschool day, and while we don't really do it as school we do find that physical activity is important.

I want them to know how to do things and also not think of some knowledge as better than others.  Be impressed at the knowledge of an engineer and the multitasking abilities of the Waffle House short-order cook and the meticulousness of the men who built the stone patio and the skill of the person working the backhoe.  Ultimately you'll probably find that your own talents lead in a particular direction, but have enough experience and humility to not be more impressed with your own abilities than those of others.  I think that, even if you never DO certain kinds of work, it helps if you've seen it done or done it on a small scale enough to realize that it's a skill.  We garden a lot and the kids have learned that being able to determine the ripeness of food is a skill, and they have an appreciation for food that somebody else picks or prepares.  

Probably our biggest issue isn't something that you can read, but it's in finding the balance between when to push and when to back off, when to set goals and when to let things develop at the student's own pace, and when you're helping them be their best and when you're being pushy.  It's a hard balance, and varies by kid, age, subject, and sometimes day of the week.  🙂  But, when you have an advanced kid it's easy to think that they can handle more than they can.  If a kid is behind in something, it's easy to want to push until they catch up. How do you know when they are struggling vs being argumentative or lazy?  It's easy to find all sorts of quotes to convince you of what you want to do, but discernment is more difficult.  And, adapting to specific kids is always...interesting.  I had all sorts of ideas for hands-on activities...which my oldest, at age 5, declared to be an inefficient way to learn when you could just read a book.  My younger, at the same age, argued with me that I was teaching kid to read incorrectly because they decided that certain letters made a different sound than they actually do.  There is no plan that could be used, unadapted, for both of those kids.  But, my overall philosophy of 'learn stuff, have free time, don't do busywork' was enough to get us started.  

[Shoeless]

To be truthful, I didn't really have an idea of what I wanted to accomplish academically when we started homeschooling.  We were sudden refugees from public school, and while I knew that homeschooling was 'a thing', I didn't really know how it was done.  In the beginning, I was much more focused on the relationship we have as a family than academics.  I think it's very hard to homeschool well if you don't have a solid, loving relationship with your kids.  "Home" is the first part of "homeschooling", after all!  It's a place where we should feel comforted, supported, accepted, and affirmed.   

John Holt, John Taylor Gatto, Sandra Dodd were authors I liked.  To me, Sandra's book is more of a "relationship building" book and less about homeschooling. I also liked "Hold On to Your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld and "Love That Boy" by Ron Fournier. Neither are homeschooling books, but they helped me define some important ideas in our homeschool: 1) Accept, Love, and teach the child that is in front of you, not the child that you imagine them to be, want them to become, or that someone else thinks they should be (Love that Boy), and 2) Yes, you absolutely can prioritize "family" over "peers", and that the family unit should be the foundation upon which kids build their identity, not their peer group (Hold on to Your Kids).  Kids and parents get a lot of messaging that being together is a bad thing and that kids best learn independence by being apart from their parents starting at an early age (daycare! preschool! afterschool enrichment activities! endless summer camps!). 

I read some Peter Gray, too, but didn't care for him. He falls into the "Kids should be socialized with and by peers, not adults" camp, which I disagree with.  I'm still glad I read his books, though, because it helped crystalize what I wanted. 

I agree with @Hunterthat you need to have a good idea of who YOU are as a human before you try to teach other people how to figure out who THEY are as humans. If you aren't really sure of who you are as a human, I recommend staying off social media.  You won't find who you are there, but you'll find a lot of messaging about who someone else thinks you "should be". 

[drjuliadc]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:34 PM, daijobu said:

This is a long video, but this link will take you past the introduction and start you about 7 minutes in.  Watch about 5 minutes of what Rusczyk has to say about math education and if it resonates, watch the whole video.  

I've seen this personally and and was the primary reason for homeschooling my daughters.    

I’m pretty sure that is the video that not_a_number posted that I referred to in another recent thread. I loved her for posting it and now I love you too.  I wouldn’t have found it again on my own.

He says so much. I normally don’t like lectures because they are so slow compared to reading the same info but he says so, so much in a relatively short amount of time. Is he always this pithy?

[GoodnightMoogle]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:34 PM, daijobu said:

This is a long video, but this link will take you past the introduction and start you about 7 minutes in.  Watch about 5 minutes of what Rusczyk has to say about math education and if it resonates, watch the whole video.  

I've seen this personally and and was the primary reason for homeschooling my daughters.    

Wow, that video was a  good watch (I did skim past the college-oriented questions and stuff just to hear what he had to say about education itself). I have read about AOPS and Beast Academy on these forums and have always been intrigued by the way they bring math and critical thinking together. What he said about math education resonated with me. I was the kid who took up to calculus and did decently well in all my math classes, but I never really understood what I was doing. As he said in the video, I was a kid who was a great "pattern finder" and had a good memory. With the way math is usually taught, that's all you need. Give me a formula to memorize and I'm ready to plug and chug. 

That math education does not serve you at all when you try to go into something like computer programming! (Which I took a few college classes of for fun). I have never been so intimidated by math in my life as I was in those classes! They would give you problems that you had to (gasp!) figure out how to solve without being given explicit formulas! You had to learn to use math and logic to talk to the computer. I far from the only frazzled student in that class. Our current American math education simply does not teach its students to "discover" how to solve problems. We should be giving math students ingredients and a cookbook, not a predigested meal! I can see why this inspired you to homeschool. 

However, I must say that I found his message a bit off-putting at times. Yes, I understand his audience, but he very much seemed dismissive of the average-intelligence kids. He seemed like he was talking only to those who are gifted or advanced. I don't know if it was the intention, but it came off to me as though he believed this method of teaching math only works for gifted kids. Does the founder of AOPS only believe that gifted children can use their programs?

My final thoughts on the matter are that I liked what he said about people who say they aren't "math people." "I'm just not a math person," "Sorry I'm just not good at math." Like it's a badge of honor. But no one treats reading that way. "Haha, sorry, I can't read!" "I was never a word person." Hah! I hope to mind what I say about myself in front of my son so he never picks up an attitude like that. 

I'm going to keep this lecture in mind as I read Lipping Ma's book and see what she has to say about math education. Thanks for the link!

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

 

However, I must say that I found his message a bit off-putting at times. Yes, I understand his audience, but he very much seemed dismissive of the average-intelligence kids. He seemed like he was talking only to those who are gifted or advanced. I don't know if it was the intention, but it came off to me as though he believed this method of teaching math only works for gifted kids. Does the founder of AOPS only believe that gifted children can use their programs?

I'm going to keep this lecture in mind as I read Lipping Ma's book and see what she has to say about math education. Thanks for the link!

That's fair.  His audience were competitors at Math Prize for Girls, and these students are more or less AIME qualifiers, so yeah, they could probably learn calculus if it was taught in Polish.  His curriculum is designed for gifted math students, but I think we underestimate many students in this country, and I think a lot of students could achieve higher levels in math if given a chance.  

I've used AoPS with more average students and even with a remedial student because she couldn't memorize a formula or algorithm to save her life.  But I could walk her through a few basic principles and then express every new algorithm in terms of those principles.  AoPS really excels this way.  

I should caution that Ma's book doesn't really help you become a better teacher.  It's more about the difference between teaching math in the US and China.  

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

My final thoughts on the matter are that I liked what he said about people who say they aren't "math people." "I'm just not a math person," "Sorry I'm just not good at math." Like it's a badge of honor. But no one treats reading that way. "Haha, sorry, I can't read!" "I was never a word person." Hah! I hope to mind what I say about myself in front of my son so he never picks up an attitude like that.

I think if you hang out in fb homeschool and parenting groups, you will find lots of people who say they "aren't readers" or that their kid "isn't a reader", because they find it dull or tedious. It isn't that they can't read, but that they choose not to, because "ugh, books are boring!". 😕

[wendyroo]

I am a STEM girl through and through, so I read Lipping Ma, but mostly just for fun and to solidify my thinking. I was already confident that I could infuse STEM into my kids’ daily lives and make it an integral lens through which they saw the world. 

But literate and poetry? That was a whole different ball game. I had always done well in language arts classes, but I knew that was entirely due to being a master student and memorizer and test taker and teacher pleaser, not due to any real knowledge or skill in language arts. I worried that if I did not increase my own confidence that I would always project the sense that literate and poetry were artificial school subjects where the main goal is to become a good guesser to make your worksheet answers match the answer key. That isn’t what I wanted for my kids. 

So I spent quite a bit of time educating myself. I read How to Read Literature Like a Professor. I watched Teaching the Classics from Center for Lit. I read Michael Clay Thompson’s poetry books. And then I started reading books and literature guides... but not Great Books. Following the ideas from Center for Lit, I started with kids’ books which I would soon be sharing with my kids. I wanted to practice identifying different conflicts in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, how the author uses mood and atmosphere in Mr. Popper’s Penguins, how James and the Giant Peach is a hero’s journey, etc. My plan was never to bludgeon the books to death by making the kids think about all those things, but rather to practice seeing them myself so I could lightly sprinkle those ideas and connections into our reading and discussions. 

It is a work in progress. I still very much think of myself as a STEM girl, but I have taught myself to think in more literary ways. Now just like I spontaneously point out slopes and fractals to my kids in the real world, I also notice and point out allusions and imagery and juxtaposition during our read alouds. Hopefully, in this more immersive environment, thinking and talking (and eventually writing) about literature will never feel as cryptic and contrived to my kids as it always did to me. 

[Hunter]

I think there are as many people that struggle with language as people that struggle with math. I just think they don't have permission to admit it. Part of my childhood was spent being reared by an illiterate step-parent. There are people confident about their ability to succeed in life with the abilities they have and I think that is good. Our society requires more diversity than we admit. If we ever succeed at our professed goals, I believe Western society would collapse, or at least need to quickly back-pedal on immigration.

Math is hard for most human brains. I can learn it, when I prioritize it and throw lots and lots and lots of time at it. I can make some jumps that others cannot, but I cannot make the jumps that a small minority of people can make. I love math. It is beautiful. But my gifts are greater in other areas. I reared a child who was the opposite, as was his father, and other males in the family. My other son is more language gifted than math gifted to an extreme, but able to learn Asian languages with some ease.

Some people are athletes and artists and musicians and naturalists and spiritual practitioners. Brains are diverse. It should be okay for people to admit what their strengths and weaknesses are, and to be able to spend more time on their passions and strengths, than wasted on endless repetitions on their weaknesses. 

Math is beautiful, but it is just one subject in a vast sea of subjects that lay like a beautiful buffet before us. I don't think everyone should have to crowd around the math dish and hang out there almost exclusively until they finish a full plate, before being allowed to move on.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Hunter said:

Math is beautiful, but it is just one subject in a vast sea of subjects that lay like a beautiful buffet before us. I don't think everyone should have to crowd around the math dish and hang out there almost exclusively until they finish a full plate, before being allowed to move on.

The reason I focus on math with my kids is 

a) critical thinking 

and 

b) the fact that it’s a gatekeeper for other things.

I wouldn’t presume to argue that math is the ONLY important thing for a kid to learn. And in any case, DD8 is a serious piano player, a voracious reader, a good writer,  a natural engineer, and is becoming fluent in another language — we didn’t do math to the exclusion of all else. (Most days, we do an hour a day, like most people.)

However, math is one of the few things in early education that’s sequential and easy to screw up. The reason I talk so much about math is because I think lots of things at this age can be child-led and while math CAN be, it doesn’t give the best results.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

As for what I read before starting to homeschool... pretty much nothing. To be honest, I felt like I had enough to communicate without needing to saddle myself with other people’s philosophies.

I do like reading what people are doing — this forum, for example, is a treasure trove of information and ideas. But at the end of the day, I homeschooled because I could see that school wasn’t going to meet the goals I already knew I had (we had tried kindergarten before pulling DD8 out), and because I thought I could meet those goals at home.

For me, staying goal-oriented keeps me more flexible. Right now, homeschooling meets our goals. At some point in the future, going to school may. The important thing to be is to keep those goals clear to myself 🙂 .

Edited December 8, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Clemsondana]

Hunter got there first - I was also going to comment that I hear 'I'm not an X person' as 'this subject is difficult for me and I'm not interested in doing the work to become proficient/excellent at it'.  My kid that is more advanced in math doesn't particularly like competition math-type problems, so while kid is advanced by usual metric and willing to work a school-appropriate amount of time on math as a subject kid doesn't like it enough to be as good as kid could be at it.  For other kids, working a school-appropriate 1 hr or 90 minutes is going to leave them behind what is 'standard', even with excellent teaching, and of course for most kids it well make them average.  

I liken this to something that I've realized in working with music with my family.  My husband can not hear a piece and tell the time signature.  I don't mean he can't hear if it's in 6/8 vs 3/8 vs 3/4 - I mean he can't easily tell 3/4 from 4/4.  He took several years of piano as a kid, so it's not as if he's had no exposure. For people who are even a little bit musical, we don't understand how it is possible to NOT hear it.  My daughter is like me, my son is like my husband.  Son is taking a music theory class at co-op as a high school fine arts credit and we heard him yell from his desk 'Yes!  I finally got a time signature right!' last week.  

I tend to think that most things can be taught to a reasonable degree of competence, but we tend to treat 'I'm not mathy or reading-y' differently from 'I'm not athletic/techy/good at languages/crafty/able to visualize spaces/good with colors/able to cook/good with machines/artistic/musical' for reasons that I don't understand.  One thing that I hate about the way that our schools and colleges see grades is that they expect that kids will do well in everything.  I think that it should be fine for a kid to have a C in math but As in languages and English, or As in math and English but a C in art or music or PE...because few people excel at everything. 

I absolutely agree that math and reading are foundational in a way that other things aren't as far as more academics if we don't teach them properly in early elementary, and my volunteer work for the past 6 years has been spent trying to catch kids up so that they aren't hopelessly left behind.  But, I think that we have to acknowledge that for some kids (1%? 5%? I don't know) it's going to take an inordinate amount of work to achieve proficiency while for others they may just need to move slowly until they get their feet under them.  And, in my experience many strugglers have problems that we don't recognize or remediate - I've written elsewhere that, for the kids that I worked with this summer, one of the biggest impediments to learning to read was an extremely limited vocabulary.  I absolutely want these things fixed and I think with early work it's probably possible for most kids to be at least reasonably adept at most things.  I also think that if we focused on sports or music by giving kids equipment and lessons at early ages we'd have much better athletes and musicians.  Kids who take apart machines for fun will probably always have a technological advantage.  if you have a reasonably compliant kid you can shape their early experiences a lot, and some kids are naturally interested in academics which makes it easy.  But, some kids are not interested when they are young and some actively fight learning academic content through parts of elementary.  My own kid who fought learning will still end up ahead because they are naturally good at it and I'm around to work in bits of it all the time.  But, I saw the same thing with a couple of kids that I volunteered with.  Without constant exposure, natural abilities, and interest, it's not clear to me that letting them say 'I'm not a math person' and instead teaching them something mechanical, or cooking as a career, might not be the better path.

And, for those that will ask like 'actively resists learning' looks like...it can look like arguing that the teacher doesn't know what they are doing, I'm not talking about the occasional day that they melt down.  It can be an ongoing refusal to accept instruction.  I had my kid tell me that the letters did NOT make the sound that I was saying or argue that it made no sense that putting an e on the end of a word should change the vowel sound.  Sometimes the kids will refuse to read a word correctly becaue 'it doesn't make sense'.  Kids I tutored often told me that I was doing the math wrong (not stylisitically - I could use whatever approach was modeled in the first problem).  They even argued over simple math facts, even if we used a manipulative and could count that indeed 9 - 2 was 7.  Mine is prone to saying that they don't understand why...for things that aren't concepts, just naming conventions.  I mean, there isn't really a why.  x squared means x times x.  There isn't a why - it's just a definition.  I am completely willing to state that something besides 'actively fighting learning' is going on, but 'not learning anywhere close to one's abilities' is  often the end result, whatever the level and ability of the student and teacher.  

[Not_a_Number]

52 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Without constant exposure, natural abilities, and interest, it's not clear to me that letting them say 'I'm not a math person' and instead teaching them something mechanical, or cooking as a career, might not be the better path.

I’d be much more interested in thinking about that trade-off if we had decent teaching already. However, currently this simply locks out people without family advantages out of certain careers, because they are taught so badly. As @daijobuwas recently saying on another thread, right now, the people who get a good education in the math and sciences are primarily immigrants from countries that value those subjects. And given that those lead to lucrative careers, that seems like something worth changing.

I think you’re right that kids are missing foundational basics like vocabulary. I found the same thing true in my math classes — lots of the kids has spent very little time even counting things, didn’t know how to use their fingers, and didn’t have practice subitizing. Those are all a problem.

[Clemsondana]

The whole reason I volunteer is because, as I've told the kids, they're too young to know what they need to know. But, that being said, what do you do with a kid who looks at the counting blocks and says 'that's too much work - I'm not going to count that' and then just writes down random numbers for every answer?  While I've often questioned the methods and amount of homework, I'd be the first to say that none of the kids I work with is being taught so poorly that they can't learn basic arithmetic...and yet, there are those who don't learn it.  This is likely to be less of an issue for a homeschool kid with involved parents, although I have not doubt it happens.  I think this is why people often end up talking at cross purposes - unless you've seen it, it's hard to imagine.  I will say that, over the course of my years with that group, I did evaluate my thinking about what my ultimate goal was.  Some kids were doing great and most were doing OK and just needed general 'mom helping with homework' help, but for some I realized that my goal was more 'Help them learn enough skills that they will be able to get a job of some sort'.  It's not what I'd ideally want for them, but it's better than the alternatives.  

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

The whole reason I volunteer is because, as I've told the kids, they're too young to know what they need to know. But, that being said, what do you do with a kid who looks at the counting blocks and says 'that's too much work - I'm not going to count that' and then just writes down random numbers for every answer?  While I've often questioned the methods and amount of homework, I'd be the first to say that none of the kids I work with is being taught so poorly that they can't learn basic arithmetic...and yet, there are those who don't learn it.  This is likely to be less of an issue for a homeschool kid with involved parents, although I have not doubt it happens.  I think this is why people often end up talking at cross purposes - unless you've seen it, it's hard to imagine.  I will say that, over the course of my years with that group, I did evaluate my thinking about what my ultimate goal was.  Some kids were doing great and most were doing OK and just needed general 'mom helping with homework' help, but for some I realized that my goal was more 'Help them learn enough skills that they will be able to get a job of some sort'.  It's not what I'd ideally want for them, but it's better than the alternatives.  

Yeah, you obviously have to work with what you’ve got. And you can’t adjust kids’ family environment and the family attitude to education.

[Clemsondana]

And, from my own experience, it's not as if family attitude, whatever it is, is poured directly into kids' heads.  I hear 'Mom, you act as if it's fun to learn things' from one of my kids all the time.  I've known parents of high schoolers to be in tears because their kid won't do what they're supposed to.  When we say that we teach the kid in front of us, sometimes it's...not pretty.  Seeing what I see from families of education-oriented people, I can only imagine what's going on inside the heads of some of the kids that I tutor.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Clemsondana said:

And, from my own experience, it's not as if family attitude, whatever it is, is poured directly into kids' heads.  I hear 'Mom, you act as if it's fun to learn things' from one of my kids all the time.  I've known parents of high schoolers to be in tears because their kid won't do what they're supposed to.  When we say that we teach the kid in front of us, sometimes it's...not pretty.  Seeing what I see from families of education-oriented people, I can only imagine what's going on inside the heads of some of the kids that I tutor.  

Obviously not. Everyone's a mix of nature and nurture. It's just that you can't affect the nature, so you work on the nurture component as best you can. 

[bookbard]

I read Lori Pickert's Project Based Homeschooling when my daughter was two or under, and it was immensely helpful right from the toddler years in terms of setting up a rich environment with opportunities for kids to spend time exploring possibilities. It's a nice easy read and very thought-provoking. Reading up about Reggio Emilia could tie into the concepts, indirectly. 

[GoodnightMoogle]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:10 PM, wendyroo said:

I still very much think of myself as a STEM girl, but I have taught myself to think in more literary ways. 

This is how I hope to be with myself, flipped the other way. I am a literature girl who needs to work on having a more "STEM" mindset. I think it's ok to say that you aren't a "math person" or a "words person" but it is still good to push ourselves in those areas we lack natural talent or drive in, especially as homeschool teachers! I have no idea what will interest my son one day but I know I'm going to need to keep on teaching and improving myself if I am going to be an effective teacher to him. 

On 12/7/2020 at 9:36 PM, daijobu said:

I should caution that Ma's book doesn't really help you become a better teacher.  It's more about the difference between teaching math in the US and China.  

I get what you are saying here (the book isn't going to actually show me teaching strategies), but I think that learning more about a subject for it's own sake could help make me a better teacher, especially since it's an area I wasn't taught very well in. I've read some classical arguments for more "traditional" math but I'm not sure I buy into that. Take this article from Memoria Press, for instance:

 https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/why-johnny-cant-add/

It presents an argument against "new" (conceptual) math. When I read it, something twinged in me. I felt as though I *should* strongly disagree with it; there were several sentences that made me bristle, some of which I listed here:

"You learn arithmetic, not in order to think about arithmetic, but in order not to think about it."

"...there are things you learn in order that you may think about them and things you learn so that you do not have to think about them, and that arithmetic is an example of the latter."

"It [arithmetic] has no value other than as a tool for learning other things, namely more advanced, conceptual math."

I was aghast reading these statements! Yet, how can I truly refute them if I barely understand the subject myself? I want to learn more about conceptual math so I can understand what it is and why or why not I will choose to teach math this way in the future. I want to come back to this article and be able to rip it apart with more understanding of the topic. 

Also, despite how infuriating and, ironically for a company that sells logic curriculum, illogical some of their articles are, I do still like Memoria Press. Hmmm, maybe they aren't "math people" 😂

[GoodnightMoogle]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:56 PM, Enigma6 said:

Anyone suggested The Heart of Learning by Lawrence Williams? Waldorf-ish but not Waldorf.

https://www.oakmeadowbookstore.com/K-8-Curriculum/Preschool/The-Heart-of-Learning.html

Another author I love, though not homeschooling books exactly, is anything by Kim John Payne. Just super great stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/Kim-John-Payne/e/B002IU0CGC/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

I have so many mixed feelings on Waldorf education. On the one hand, when I learned about its founder and origins, I felt some red flags raising. Anthroposophy feels like some kind of scientology for kids 😂 However, who among us doesn't look at their crafts and toys and swoon a little bit? I completely understand the draw toward something more simple for our children. In fact, I have read "Simplicity Parenting" by Payne; I read it when I was pregnant having seen it recommended on some parenting blogs. While I think some of the advice was a little extreme (like getting rid of the television completely) I found that many of its ideas really resonated with me. One portion in particular from that book that really wrote itself on my heart was when the parent would light a candle every morning before her child came down to breakfast. As part of their morning ritual, the child would come down to have their breakfast by the candlelight. What a beautiful and gentle way to start the day, especially on a dark winter morning! 

The biggest part of Waldorf that I hope to incorporate into both my homeschool and my parenting is their use of rhythms. I think routines and rhythms are so important to both adults and children. So now you've peaked my interest on "The Heart of Learning." It is a bit pricy. Do you think it's worth the 30 dollars? Does it give a lot of practical advice and ideas? While I don't think I am interested in Waldorf education per say, I would love some more ideas for "simplifying" childhood in our crazy culture. 

On 12/5/2020 at 10:56 PM, Enigma6 said:

https://www.memoriapress.com/

Another lesser known company to poke around is Logos School online. The website is confusing but perhaps you can call and chat with them for suggestions.

https://logospressonline.com/

I echo your feelings about the whole Latin thing. My husband is in the firmly no camp so we aren't trying it.

 

Thanks for the links; I have actually looked at both of those websites extensively as I am insane. I have no business looking at curricula, but I genuinely think it's fun to do so. That's the teacher in me 😂   I got sad during my brief stint teaching in public schools and started going down curriculum rabbit holes. 

[Clemsondana]

I'd say that there is some truth to the idea that eventually you don't want to be thinking about arithmetic.  On one hand, you want students to think enough to understand what they are doing. But, at some point you want the process to become automatic.  I've done algebra with students who consciously have to think about every arithmetic fact, and it is painful.  I once saw a quote that I can't find, but it was something about people or societies making progress based on the number of things they can do without thinking, with the idea being that the more things that you have practiced enough to do automatically, the more advanced things that you can do.  Sports would not be possible if we had to think about each step the way a 1-year old does, and calculus would be difficult if we had to use counters for each bit of arithmetic.  That doesn't mean that you have to learn it purely by rote, but it does mean that once you understand what multiplication, there is no harm in memorizing that 12 x 12 is 144 - even if you learn nifty tricks to solve it, it's still faster to just know it.  

[GoodnightMoogle]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

I'd say that there is some truth to the idea that eventually you don't want to be thinking about arithmetic.  On one hand, you want students to think enough to understand what they are doing. But, at some point you want the process to become automatic.  I've done algebra with students who consciously have to think about every arithmetic fact, and it is painful.  I once saw a quote that I can't find, but it was something about people or societies making progress based on the number of things they can do without thinking, with the idea being that the more things that you have practiced enough to do automatically, the more advanced things that you can do.  Sports would not be possible if we had to think about each step the way a 1-year old does, and calculus would be difficult if we had to use counters for each bit of arithmetic.  That doesn't mean that you have to learn it purely by rote, but it does mean that once you understand what multiplication, there is no harm in memorizing that 12 x 12 is 144 - even if you learn nifty tricks to solve it, it's still faster to just know it.  

Totally agree, Clem. I do think memorizing basic math facts is really important. But I don't see why it's so bad to teach children to think about and understand the methods they are using, then drill them until they can name their facts by heart. In the Memoria Press forum (in reference to the article I posted) one of the leaders wrote that first graders don't need to know *why* 2 plus 2 equals 4, they just need to memorize that fact. That seemed kind of absurd to me. I mean, why can't we teach them *why* first, and then have them memorize it? It seems weird to fill a child's head with facts that they don't understand. I mean, they will be able to use those facts quickly later on, but I feel that it does them a disservice.

However, note my statement, "I feel." I really don't "know." As I don't have an excellent grasp on advanced math topics myself. So perhaps I am off base! However, since Cothran used an anecdote as evidence, I will too. I was taught my math facts. Drill and kill procedural method. That has served me well, but did nothing for me when I tried to learn how to think about math so I could do computer programming. My brain was never taught to think that way, and starting as an adult was very difficult. I *think* it would do children a service to train them to think about math more abstractly and learn how to problem solve. 

The public schools I taught in, though, are likely the reason why articles like Cothran's exist. They are teaching conceptual math, "new" math as they call it, some crappy Pearson program. Envision, I believe it was called. Anyway, I had otherwise intelligent fifth graders that were still counting on their fingers to do problems like 6+7. Should never have been allowed to happen. Drill and memory definitely has its place. 

[daijobu]

24 minutes ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

 

"You learn arithmetic, not in order to think about arithmetic, but in order not to think about it."

"...there are things you learn in order that you may think about them and things you learn so that you do not have to think about them, and that arithmetic is an example of the latter."

"It [arithmetic] has no value other than as a tool for learning other things, namely more advanced, conceptual math."

I was aghast reading these statements! Yet, how can I truly refute them if I barely understand the subject myself? I want to learn more about conceptual math so I can understand what it is and why or why not I will choose to teach math this way in the future. I want to come back to this article and be able to rip it apart with more understanding of the topic. 

Also, despite how infuriating and, ironically for a company that sells logic curriculum, illogical some of their articles are, I do still like Memoria Press. Hmmm, maybe they aren't "math people" 😂

Well, I'll play devil's advocate here.  Every year in my high school math syllabus, my teacher wrote, "Mere memorization is a mathematical malpractice."  Note the word mere.  It doesn't mean there isn't a place for memorization, but it shouldn't be a large part of your learning.  Being able to no longer think about something does free you up to think about more difficult material.  

I have the formula for the sum of consecutive integers memorized and that's so useful.  I don't even bother thinking much about it, I just starting plugging it in when I need it.   

I no longer simplify   by writing  as a product of a square.  By now I have it memorized, and I hardly think about it anymore.  

I have my squares memorized up to .   It's terrific that I no longer need to multiply these out (or laboriously figure out their square roots).  

I suppose the difference is if you pinned me down, I could reproduce a back of the envelope sketch/derivation of most (but not all) of the theorems I have memorized.  

[daijobu]

21 minutes ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I have so many mixed feelings on Waldorf education.

Waldorf is huge where I live, and a few close homeschooling families were what I call "Waldorf-inspired."  They took what they liked about Waldorf and discarded the rest.  I don't consider myself Waldorf, but I was so grateful to have had them as friends of my kids because when my kids were younger, we were low/no media at home.  Very little TV, very little computer time.  So it was great!  None of the kids were watching iCarly (popular at the time) or any of the other Disney channel stuff.  My dd's friends weren't over sexualized or trying too hard to grow up or be sassy or whatever.  

I also loved that they would invite me for special Waldorfy events like candlemass, where we did candle dipping every January.  But this same uber-Waldorfy family also hosted a haunted house and all kinds of fun stuff.  Take what you like, leave the rest behind.  

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

Totally agree, Clem. I do think memorizing basic math facts is really important. But I don't see why it's so bad to teach children to think about and understand the methods they are using, then drill them until they can name their facts by heart. In the Memoria Press forum (in reference to the article I posted) one of the leaders wrote that first graders don't need to know *why* 2 plus 2 equals 4, they just need to memorize that fact. That seemed kind of absurd to me. I mean, why can't we teach them *why* first, and then have them memorize it? It seems weird to fill a child's head with facts that they don't understand. I mean, they will be able to use those facts quickly later on, but I feel that it does them a disservice.

I think you're already way ahead of the article you're citing 😉 . That's exactly the right goal: you want the kids to get a thorough feel for what they are doing, and THEN you want them to memorize the fast methods all in order to free up their working memory and let them work on the next thing. 

I will say that the way we approached arithmetic in our household was absolutely instrumental in allowing us to start algebra early and without any growing pains. People who dismiss arithmetic as something that just needs a "get 'er done" attitude don't understand that algebra is nothing but generalized arithmetic, and if you waste all of your arithmetic time in NOT noticing the interesting patterns, it's very hard to then use them in algebra, when you're supposed to be generalizing those patterns! 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

That has served me well, but did nothing for me when I tried to learn how to think about math so I could do computer programming. My brain was never taught to think that way, and starting as an adult was very difficult. I *think* it would do children a service to train them to think about math more abstractly and learn how to problem solve. 

You're absolutely right. It makes a huge difference to teach kids to organize their thinking in early math -- it's the perfect playground for that kind of thought. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Main thought to remember (that I came up with and lived by pretty consistently, albeit with considerable angst):  TEACH YOUR ACTUAL CHILD, NOT SOME THEORETICAL CHILD IN A BOOK.

Having said that, there are some great books out there that have not come up yet but were somewhat foundational for me.

—Family Matters and The Underground History of American Education were what really made me into a homeschooler to the core.  It was nice to remember them on hard days.  No turning back at that point.

—Homeschooling:  A Tapestry of Days helped me to picture different ways to actually go about it.  And The Skylark Sings With Me was nice in that regard also.

—Teach Like Your Hair Is On Fire was a nice sanity check for 4th / 5th grade.  No sense reading it now, but keep it in mind for later.

—The Writers’ Jungle, coupled with TWTM First Edition, taught me how to teach writing.  These were far from the only resources that I used, but they gave me that crucial overview.  And I became good at it, which was in considerable question. Because I could write well, but was not at all sure how to teach writing well.

 

[Clarita]

Your little one is still a baby. I wish The Montessori Toddler by Simone Davies came out before I had my first child. I feel like that book would have (and has) put me on right track on how to foster independence and self motivated learning in my children early on. 

I don't planned to use "Montessori Curriculum" past kindergarten (I prefer Charlotte Mason/Classical).    

[Emily ZL]

I know this thread is super old, but I would put in a plug for "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." Not homeschooling, but one of the best parenting manuals ever.

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Emily ZL said:

I know this thread is super old, but I would put in a plug for "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." Not homeschooling, but one of the best parenting manuals ever.

I just took a peek at that book, and I feel like I need an advice manual that says the opposite stuff. The one that says that you aren't a bad parent if you sometimes do have to punish your children, because after all the thoughtful negotiation it turns out that they are still little and need external motivation to behave 😕 . 

But I already hate punishment and dislike it when people aren't willing to meet me in the middle, so those are always what I try the first, second, third, and hundredth time. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Emily ZL]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I just took a peek at that book, and I feel like I need an advice manual that says the opposite stuff. The one that says that you aren't a bad parent if you sometimes do have to punish your children, because after all the thoughtful negotiation it turns out that they are still little and need external motivation to behave 😕 . 

But I already hate punishment and dislike it when people aren't willing to meet me in the middle, so those are always what I try the first, second, third, and hundredth time. 

It's really excellent, I promise! Very practical! It's written with cartoons of what you want to say and what to say instead. There's a million examples, but one I used just today is, "give them their wish in fantasy." Your kid says she wants a granola bar but you don't have any, and yet she keeps screaming about a granola bar, and you're trying to nicely repeat some version of "I don't know how else to explain to you that I don't have one to give you" and yet she keeps screaming. Instead you say "I wish I had a granola bar. I wish I had a whole granola bar factory!! I wish I had one as big as a car." I swear, I dealt with crying kid for 10 minutes before I remembered this trick and the tears dried up in about 20 seconds. 

The punishment thing is definitely a bit of a 1970s throwback, but really they DO advocate punishment, they just like to call it "natural consequences." So like, instead of saying "you hit your sister? No screens for two days!" which just makes a kid feel wronged, you might say "because you used your trains as weapons, you now have to put them away for today. No more trains, we don't use them as weapons." One is a random act that a kid resents, and one is a natural consequence of their action. 

However, the punishment section is definitely the weakest of the book, because sometimes it's hard to see a natural consequence. Sometimes you just send your kid to the naughty corner or to their room, and you ignore that part of the book. But the rest is almost like magic. Like wizards wrote it. I could honestly give you a hundred examples from my half dozen kids.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Emily ZL said:

It's really excellent, I promise! Very practical! It's written with cartoons of what you want to say and what to say instead. There's a million examples, but one I used just today is, "give them their wish in fantasy." Your kid says she wants a granola bar but you don't have any, and yet she keeps screaming about a granola bar, and you're trying to nicely repeat some version of "I don't know how else to explain to you that I don't have one to give you" and yet she keeps screaming. Instead you say "I wish I had a granola bar. I wish I had a whole granola bar factory!! I wish I had one as big as a car." I swear, I dealt with crying kid for 10 minutes before I remembered this trick and the tears dried up in about 20 seconds. 

Ooooh. I'm going to have to try that one! I'm generally very good at redirecting that kind of tantrum, but I've never tried this particular approach. 

 

3 hours ago, Emily ZL said:

The punishment thing is definitely a bit of a 1970s throwback, but really they DO advocate punishment, they just like to call it "natural consequences." So like, instead of saying "you hit your sister? No screens for two days!" which just makes a kid feel wronged, you might say "because you used your trains as weapons, you now have to put them away for today. No more trains, we don't use them as weapons." One is a random act that a kid resents, and one is a natural consequence of their action. 

However, the punishment section is definitely the weakest of the book, because sometimes it's hard to see a natural consequence. Sometimes you just send your kid to the naughty corner or to their room, and you ignore that part of the book.

I think I'm just reacting because I've always been so influenced by the attachment parenting communities -- like, the idea that natural consequences will solve everything would be lovely, but it doesn't work with my very stubborn kids. In the same way that the advice that there was some way to get my kids to sleep well (and be well-rested, which was important for THEM!) without them crying for a while just made me feel guilty, the idea that I don't need to impose punishments also does... because I already hate punishments, prefer natural consequences, and have recently discovered that sometimes I really need to suck it up and punish and not worry about resentment, because nothing else is getting through 😉 . 

 

3 hours ago, Emily ZL said:

But the rest is almost like magic. Like wizards wrote it. I could honestly give you a hundred examples from my half dozen kids.

Ok, you sold me on it, lol! I'll take a look. I do like your fantasy example. I'm going to try it with my almost 5 year old and report back 😄 .

[GoodnightMoogle]

On 3/9/2021 at 12:37 AM, Clarita said:

Your little one is still a baby. I wish The Montessori Toddler by Simone Davies came out before I had my first child. I feel like that book would have (and has) put me on right track on how to foster independence and self motivated learning in my children early on. 

I don't planned to use "Montessori Curriculum" past kindergarten (I prefer Charlotte Mason/Classical).    

You must be me exactly with your plans. I also like the Montessori method for littles. In fact, back when I was still teaching and feeling bummed, I think learning about Montessori education is what started the ball rolling for me to discover the homeschooling world (though “The Well-Trained Mind,” of course, is the first official book I read on that topic)!

I even have my little guy sleeping in a floor bed right now, much to my mother in law’s chagrin 😂 we will see how that pans out when he starts really crawling.