Classical Education Movement

[annegables]

 I have been thinking a lot about the Classical Ed Movement of late. Well, I think it is of late, but I have only been homeschooling for 5 years. 

I have listened to the bigger guns in the movement talk (Chris Perrin, Martin Cothran, Andrew Kern, etc) about lots of different classical ed ideas. I love nerding out on Circe podcasts. I love hearing educational philosophy. And yet. I finally realized that I dont think I am the target audience, even though it is all pitched to homeschoolers, it seems like we are a tagged-on afterthought. I cannot quite put my finger on the underlying attitude. Maybe I am just slow, but it seems like it was all written for and out of experience with Christian schools, but marketed for homeschoolers as well, with the assumption that we wont notice a difference. I have nothing against educational materials developed for schools, but I wish said marketers would be more straightforward about it.

I finally realized that one of the things I like most about SWB and her products is she does not assume a school environment in her materials. 

[8filltheheart]

The names you reference are connected to educational systems.  The neoclassical movement amg homeschoolers can be linked to names like SWB, Laura Berquist, and the Bluedorns (those are the main names I am familiar with)

Edited July 28, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[annegables]

20 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The names you reference are connected to educational systems.  The neoclassical movement amg homeschoolers can be linked to names like SWB, Laura Berquist, and the Bluedorns (those are the main names I am familiar with)

I definitely did not appreciate this until long after I should have figured it out. I had no idea of how much nuance there is in educational materials until lurking on here for a while and actually homeschooling for a few years. What helped me figure it out was using CAP's Argument Builder and every other exercise was for arguing for or against school uniforms. The first month or so I was super confused as to why a classical homeschool curriculum would have this example (I am usually not this slow on the uptake). I FINALLY realized that I am not even close to the target market, despite them having a booth at a homeschool convention and marketing to homeschoolers. 

 

[annegables]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I used to follow Circe on FB. I finally stopped following them after they posted a really terrible (IMHO) article about a kid starting at a classical school. I thought the author placed too much blame on parents. 

I'm not big fans of anyone you mentioned. I'm pretty skeptical about the "Christian classical" movement anyway. Those men talk down to the HSing moms who follow them. I've heard all of these men claim that "Christian classical education" (as they define it) is the way that everyone was educated before Dewey or whatever. That's way too simplistic. 

 

Close Reads podcast and The Play's The Thing are great for me, and they are not homeschooling; more just like listening in on a book club. I just listen to the podcasts though, and dont follow them on FB.

My impression was that their talks on education are way more esoteric than they need to be, given their audience. It sometimes seemed like they are talking more for each other and less for the people listening, whom I am assuming are a fair amount of homeschooling moms. I mean, how many Classic ed school administrators and teachers are listening to this?

[mommysanders]

Like others have said, those names are connected to particular curriculum and don't represent the full scope of what exists as classical education. I have really appreciated SWB as well as our Tapestry of Grace curriculum, which was made solely for homeschoolers. I actually still like the people you listed and what they produce, but I have found some of it to be more for a classroom like you've said. 

[8filltheheart]

All classical ed prorviders on the market are neoclassical and are hugely influenced by Dorothy Sayers (so that dates back to 1948). I don't think it is unique to the men listed in the OP.

In terms of virtue, that does date back to ancient times, but it was in terms of rhetoric since the goal of classical ed was to produce rhetoricians.. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/sac-publicspeaking/chapter/the-roman-republics-adoption-of-rhetoric/

Quote

The mind is exercised by the variety and multiplicity of the subject matter, while the character is molded by the contemplation of virtue and vice. ~ Quintilian

 

Quintilian emphasized the value of rhetoric as a moral force in the community. “My aim,” said Quintilian, “is the education of the perfect orator.”^[6] Since the function of the orator is to advance the cause of truth and good government, Quintilian said he must by definition be a good man morally and not just an effective speaker. According to Gwynn this was a revolutionary doctrine in the development of rhetoric: Aristotle saw rhetoric as morally neutral, a human tool whose moral character resided in the speaker not the art.^[7] Quintilian saw rhetoric as a means for a better self- governing society; to make moral goodness integral to oratory.

How does Quintilian’s perspective on rhetoric compare to Plato, Aristotle, and Cicero? Plato defined rhetoric as a philosophy rather than an art, an unnecessary tool. Plato was concerned more with the truth than Quintilian, while Aristotle believed that rhetoric was “finding the available means of persuasion.” Quintilian challenged this definition because he felt that Aristotle had omitted the fact that anyone, not just the learned, can persuade. To Quintilian, rhetoric was “the good man speaking well.”^[8]

 

[Amy M]

I haven't been on these forums for months and came on today to see if anyone was talking about all of the Classical Consortiums this group of speakers has been having in the past few months. I just got an announcement about another upcoming one with Cothran, Pudewa, Perrin, Kern, and Reynolds. I enjoy a lot of it, but I also admit that I'm skeptical about a few things and underwhelmed in some of their sessions or speaking abilities (especially considering CE's emphasis on Rhetoric).

My main question I'm wondering about is why they don't include SWB? I know she spoke at conventions years ago, but it was mostly before the time I knew about her, and I've only gleaned from her recordings. I would absolutely attend anything at which she spoke--especially on of those CE Unhinged Panels. She has been so helpful to many of us, and while Reynolds seems like a nice lady, SWB could elevate the whole scene immensely. The WTM book and curriculum fit my mind so well as a homeschooling mom. SWB understands us. We also use some MP (which does feel VERY traditional schooling, and the teachers are even more boring than ABeka or BJ) and CAP products. I take courses on ClassicalU and am impressed with Dr. Perrin's explanations of the history of CE and his goals for it. I see humility in his admissions that they're all still trying to figure this out, and I completely support the emphasis on virtue and Christianity.

[Jentrovert]

On 7/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, Patty Joanna said:

...and I guess for me, I knew that I was not well educated enough to deliver either classical or Neo-classical education -- you can't give what you don't have (haven't had).  I had a decent public school education, but my husband's was much better, and we found so much guidance toward HIS kind of education from many of the people / organizations named in this thread, that we knew we could do BETTER that the schools could at delivering an excellent education if we directed it ourselves.  I guess I didn't really care whether it was classical or Neo-classical, because I'm really not educated enough to be able to defend either one.  I just knew that what SWB set forth in TWTM was a LOT better than anything I could do by "rolling my own" or by putting my kid in school, so it could have been called a Mustard Education and I'd have gone with it.  

Same, but without the decent public school education.

[annegables]

5 hours ago, Amy Meyers said:

I haven't been on these forums for months and came on today to see if anyone was talking about all of the Classical Consortiums this group of speakers has been having in the past few months. I just got an announcement about another upcoming one with Cothran, Pudewa, Perrin, Kern, and Reynolds. I enjoy a lot of it, but I also admit that I'm skeptical about a few things and underwhelmed in some of their sessions or speaking abilities (especially considering CE's emphasis on Rhetoric).

My main question I'm wondering about is why they don't include SWB? I know she spoke at conventions years ago, but it was mostly before the time I knew about her, and I've only gleaned from her recordings. I would absolutely attend anything at which she spoke--especially on of those CE Unhinged Panels. She has been so helpful to many of us, and while Reynolds seems like a nice lady, SWB could elevate the whole scene immensely. The WTM book and curriculum fit my mind so well as a homeschooling mom. SWB understands us. We also use some MP (which does feel VERY traditional schooling, and the teachers are even more boring than ABeka or BJ) and CAP products. I take courses on ClassicalU and am impressed with Dr. Perrin's explanations of the history of CE and his goals for it. I see humility in his admissions that they're all still trying to figure this out, and I completely support the emphasis on virtue and Christianity.

Thank you! That is actually why I started this thread, although I wish I had titled it differently. By "education movement", I meant "school", not education. Alas. 

I feel like there is a dog-and-pony show going on. Especially when, right after schools shut down in March, they held an online conference to make up for the fact that the Great Homeschool Conventions were not happening. I appreciate their efforts, but their whole spiel in March was supposedly geared towards homeschoolers, but their products (possibly not IEW - not very familiar with it) are geared more toward classical Christian schools. I struggled with this mismatch. Then, they are having another one-day online conference next week that is geared toward homeschoolers, and it leaves me scratching my head. 

Some of them like to wax poetical whereas SWB seems to get down to brass tacks. I like listening to education pedagogy as much as the next person, but it gets to be a bit much.

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I guess I'm not seeing what you're referring to. I've gone to GHC for several years running now and their conference floor is most definitely geared to homeschoolers. No one is marketing classical schools at GHC, so I'm confused at what you're getting at I think? 

Ahh, I think I was unclear. The only tie-in to GHC is that, in March, when the GHC suddenly shut down (I think you were stuck in limbo at the one in TX?), the classical ed folks like Perrin, Cothran, Kern, Pudewa, etc, put on a 3 day online classical ed conference that was being marketed towards homeschoolers and esp to crisis schoolers. My post was really inspired by the fact that, as @Amy Meyers mentioned, they are doing a one-day online conference next week with very similar topics and towards the same audience. It took me much longer than it should have to realize that all these folks except Pudewa are affiliated with a schooling movement as opposed to being homeschool-focused.

[annegables]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

But I think the classical guys are going to dim out in the next few years. I will be seriously suprised if they don't. Everyone is getting on the older side to keep doing conventions like this and without Andrew Kern, you don't have a Circe draw. It certainly is not going to be Matt Bianco. Likewise, CAP, I don't know who would fill in for Perrin. I love IEW so I would love if Andrew Pudewa's son would come in and start giving talks perhaps- I have heard him speak before and I think he is going to have a gift there. But who else is going to be the face of IEW, really? That is what is interesting as all these programs and products hit the 20-30 year mark. Their founders have to pass the torch, and it's like everyone is getting old at that same time. 

I agree. This reminds me a bit of mega churches that became big because of a founding pastor and now, as the pastor ages, there is a giant issue of passing the torch well. I dont think that CAP will crumble when Perrin retires (and I think he is only in his 50s), but I am curious what will happen. 

[annegables]

I know nothing about Pam Barnhill and Colleen Kessler, but I credit Sarah MacKensie with helping me see the importance of reading aloud to children (I hated being read to as a child, and reading aloud to children used to make me fall asleep). We are strongly a read-aloud family and I will be forever indebted to Mackensie for her putting a spotlight on this topic.

[annegables]

34 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I don't mind the male speakers- I get a lot out of them at the conferences, but I will say it is nice to see homeschooling mothers, the ones in the trenches,  coming back center stage at these conferences. I mean, we ARE the ones doing the work, so it's always been funny to me that the schedule can skew male in the bigger classroom talks. The small curriculum specific workshops are mostly women, but the big talks- huge percentage of dudes it seems like. Sort of weird. 

Fully agree. I enjoy listening to the male speakers whom I have been referencing and have benefitted from their philosophizing. And I agree with @Patty Joanna that there is a ton of overlap between what they do and the market for homeschoolers. I just hadnt realized that homeschoolers were not their primary market. Kind of like when I found out from @square_25 that the majority of kids who do AoPS online are afterschoolers and not homeschoolers. Huh.

Edited July 31, 2020 by annegables

[Doodlebug]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:58 PM, annegables said:

 I have been thinking a lot about the Classical Ed Movement of late. Well, I think it is of late, but I have only been homeschooling for 5 years. 

I have listened to the bigger guns in the movement talk (Chris Perrin, Martin Cothran, Andrew Kern, etc) about lots of different classical ed ideas. I love nerding out on Circe podcasts. I love hearing educational philosophy. And yet. I finally realized that I dont think I am the target audience, even though it is all pitched to homeschoolers, it seems like we are a tagged-on afterthought. I cannot quite put my finger on the underlying attitude. Maybe I am just slow, but it seems like it was all written for and out of experience with Christian schools, but marketed for homeschoolers as well, with the assumption that we wont notice a difference. I have nothing against educational materials developed for schools, but I wish said marketers would be more straightforward about it.

I finally realized that one of the things I like most about SWB and her products is she does not assume a school environment in her materials. 

I came to this realization about two years ago.  I was struggling my way into a new season of homeschooling (after an unhappy season at a classical school) and went back to my old standbys (Circe, Kern, Pudewa, etc) for inspiration.  That's when I found that what had inspired me in my initial homeschooling days very clearly spoke the same rhetoric of the classical school.  A lot of puffery.  Celebrated disdain for parents who asked honest-to-goodness, and sometimes stupid, questions.  Three piece suits and beards talking classical model schools as though they were old as dirt.  It didn't sit well.   

I don't believe it was always this way.  At one point, these guys were new in their role and pioneering just like all of us homeschool parents -- there's a universal appeal there.  But in the past 10 years, the market has spoken...  it clamored for classical schools and these individuals filled it.  No harm no foul.

And yes, it made me more thankful for voices like Susan, Cindy ROllins, Angelina Stanford, Pam Barnhill, Schole Sisters, etc.  I don't listen as much as I used to, but there is a time we all need the encouragement of those who are/ have been in the trenches.  

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Doodlebug

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I really don't think it's weird that the big draws are male. Standard disclaimer that HSers don't fit in a box and there are all different kinds - but the 'official' (if that is even a thing) HSing movement comes from certain religious traditions and those traditions are generally patriarchal. Most of the women attending those conventions are accustomed to listening to male authority figures. I think there is a kind of implicit assumption that the men are more important. 

BTW, I believe you are thinking of the Schole Sisters. That's the one with the Afterthoughts blog lady (CM bootcamp) and Misti Winkler. 

I wrote above that I have a lot of issues with all of these guys so I'm with you here. 

Again, I think that is a stereotype and not my longterm experience. There are plenty of homeschooling movements lead by women-WTM for one, also Ambleside and Mater Amabilis both Christian, both women formed.

[8filltheheart]

MODG, Designing Your Own Classical Education---also female.

[8filltheheart]

One convention does not make a broad truth.  That could simply reflect the individual organizers.  I have been to huge conventions in the past and that did not reflect the atmosphere.  Of course, most of those don't even hold conventions anymore.  Conventions are pretty much nothing like they used to be. 

[knitgrl]

I dunno. I think I have gotten a bit jaded about convention speakers. This is year seven that I have been steeped in the homeschool world. I've gone to all the conventions available in my area. I have listened to podcasts and watched webinars and read blogs. All the folks you mention have pretty much only one idea they talk about, which they present in different ways or with a different focus, but in the end, it's all about getting you to buy their product. I understand they have to make a living, but I've gotten so I just don't really pay attention. If I've seen them a few times, I really don't need to see them anymore. (Although, I gotta say, I would totally see MCT again.)

[8filltheheart]

53 minutes ago, knitgrl said:

I dunno. I think I have gotten a bit jaded about convention speakers. This is year seven that I have been steeped in the homeschool world. I've gone to all the conventions available in my area. I have listened to podcasts and watched webinars and read blogs. All the folks you mention have pretty much only one idea they talk about, which they present in different ways or with a different focus, but in the end, it's all about getting you to buy their product. I understand they have to make a living, but I've gotten so I just don't really pay attention. If I've seen them a few times, I really don't need to see them anymore. (Although, I gotta say, I would totally see MCT again.)

That's my view about basically most th things you hear about these days connected to homeschooling.  I've felt that way for about a decade.