"Woke" culture

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes, we've had these talks quite a bit. (not sure why they didn't sink in with my oldest but did sink in with my younger kids) Like, one of my dds friends lived in a huge HOA neighborhood with fancy houses and pools and stuff. We talked a lot about how we could live there easily OR we could live in a more modest place out here on the farm with plenty more acreage. 

 

Or you can live in apartments, like us 😉 

I don’t feel judgmental of most living choices, but it bugs me when people don’t admit there are trade-offs involved whatever you do.

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

Someone did touch my boobs, many someone's. I had to carry an empty giant file to keep from my boob being touched even when covered from neck to ankles with just my hands and feet showing and a scarf pinned in front of said boobs. It was utterly dehumanizing and violating. My life was far from charmed. 

How many times does one's boob need to touched, brushed or should it be groped or cupped to not be a special snowflake who complains and not be accused of leading a charmed life ? 

 

I don't know how many times, but here is where I stand on this particular topic. I can not control what other people do. At all. I don't care how many laws are passed or how many trainings companies go through - I have worked in corporate world for a long time and I know what can go on despite all the effort to curb that type of behaviour.

So there is no way in hell would I be getting traumatized to need therapy for someone touching me. I would either slap their hand away, if it's a single occurrence (and I've had that happened) or file a formal complaint for anything other than one time deal.

And if I had daughters I would be teaching them the same thing.

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SereneHome said:

I don't know how many times, but here is where I stand on this particular topic. I can not control what other people do. At all. I don't care how many laws are passed or how many trainings companies go through - I have worked in corporate world for a long time and I know what can go on despite all the effort to curb that type of behaviour.

So there is no way in hell would I be getting traumatized to need therapy for someone touching me. I would either slap their hand away, if it's a single occurrence (and I've had that happened) or file a formal complaint for anything other than one time deal.

And if I had daughters I would be teaching them the same thing.

 

More importantly, teach your sons about consent 😉 .

And theoretically, what do you do if making waves may derail your career? 

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

If a kid told me they don’t feel safe I would first want to listen to hear what it is about—a sibling beating up on them, or some incest problem, I would definitely want to know about, and take very seriously.

However, conversation or words that aren’t what they want is not in the same category generally.  In that case I would want to teach them to speak up to me politely and when appropriate about their own thoughts, but that just as they are entitled to their own thoughts, so are other people, including parents.

 

Ummmm this is entirely different situation than what OP described.

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Or you can live in apartments, like us 😉 

I don’t feel judgmental of most living choices, but it bugs me when people don’t admit there are trade-offs involved whatever you do.

Yep. There's always going to be something negative about any solution.  For my kids, it's been 1. Yard maintenance. We have 2 acres to mow in the summer. 2. We have to drive to activities and appointments and fun stuff. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

Yep. There's always going to be something negative about any solution.  For my kids, it's been 1. Yard maintenance. We have 2 acres to mow in the summer. 2. We have to drive to activities and appointments and fun stuff. 

Yeah, and we had no outdoor space! But we’re close to lots of cool stuff. 

... not as useful during a pandemic, alas.

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I don't know how many times, but here is where I stand on this particular topic. I can not control what other people do. At all. I don't care how many laws are passed or how many trainings companies go through - I have worked in corporate world for a long time and I know what can go on despite all the effort to curb that type of behaviour.

So there is no way in hell would I be getting traumatized to need therapy for someone touching me. I would either slap their hand away, if it's a single occurrence (and I've had that happened) or file a formal complaint for anything other than one time deal.

And if I had daughters I would be teaching them the same thing.

 

 

Therapy is not a bad thing. It's not something you only need if you are an "extreme" victim. I have had all of my kids in therapy at some time, and I've had to fight this attitude from family members. It irks me. 

 

[Happy2BaMom]

3 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I don't know how many times, but here is where I stand on this particular topic. I can not control what other people do. At all. I don't care how many laws are passed or how many trainings companies go through - I have worked in corporate world for a long time and I know what can go on despite all the effort to curb that type of behaviour.

So there is no way in hell would I be getting traumatized to need therapy for someone touching me. I would either slap their hand away, if it's a single occurrence (and I've had that happened) or file a formal complaint for anything other than one time deal.

And if I had daughters I would be teaching them the same thing.

 

 

Which is exactly why your chances of being selected as a target (it's not random, you know) are slim-to-none. By the time a woman is old enough to be married and have three kids with work experience, the predators aren't interested.

They know who is financially and emotionally vulnerable, with limited-to-no backup options.

They're still to blame, not the vulnerable women who aren't aggressive enough.

[SereneHome]

6 minutes ago, kand said:

I think a kid who grew up hearing this viewpoint would probably not feel safe sharing with a parent if something happened that felt traumatic  to them. The last thing someone needs when they are feeling distressed is for someone they think will have their back to tell them they’re ridiculous or stupid for feeling that way.

I

 

Wow, that's a huge assumption and jump to make.

There are other alternatives....

[SereneHome]

Just now, Happy2BaMom said:

Which is exactly why your chances of being selected as a target (it's not random, you know) are slim-to-none. By the time a woman is old enough to be married and have three kids with work experience, the predators aren't interested.

They know who is financially and emotionally vulnerable, with limited-to-no backup options.

They're still to blame, not the vulnerable women who aren't aggressive enough.

 

No one wants to touch my boob now, when I am all grown up and mother of 3. I had people who wanted and tried touching me when I was young and cute and my boobs weren't sucked down by 3 kids.

[SereneHome]

5 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Therapy is not a bad thing. It's not something you only need if you are an "extreme" victim. I have had all of my kids in therapy at some time, and I've had to fight this attitude from family members. It irks me. 

 

I never said therapy is a bad thing. I did say that certain things should not require therapy

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SereneHome said:

 

No one wants to touch my boob now, when I am all grown up and mother of 3. I had people who wanted and tried touching me when I was young and cute and my boobs weren't sucked down by 3 kids.

You also aren’t at work, right?

[SereneHome]

6 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Therapy is not a bad thing. It's not something you only need if you are an "extreme" victim. I have had all of my kids in therapy at some time, and I've had to fight this attitude from family members. It irks me. 

 

I never said therapy is a bad thing. I did say that certain things should not require therapy

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

You also aren’t at work, right?

I am, just small office, not big corporate one

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I never said therapy is a bad thing. I did say that certain things should not require therapy

Sorry, that was my poor wording. Therapy is not just for "super bad" things. It can help build resiliency to those "smaller" aggressions. 

[Ausmumof3]

23 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Or you can live in apartments, like us 😉 

I don’t feel judgmental of most living choices, but it bugs me when people don’t admit there are trade-offs involved whatever you do.

We had a bit of time in an apartment once with dhs work.  It was definitely less work in terms of upkeep etc.  But then I had to work quite hard to keep the kids busy because they couldn’t just run outside.  And anyone doing covid lockdown in an apartment deserves a medal.  Actually more than a medal... 

[Ausmumof3]

grr something’s playing up and when I edit it double posts instead 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

We had a bit of time in an apartment once with dhs work.  It was definitely less work in terms of upkeep etc.  But then I had to work quite hard to keep the kids busy because they couldn’t just run outside.  And anyone doing covid lockdown in an apartment deserves a medal.  Actually more than a medal... 

Oh, we’re fine 🙂 . They figure out ways to amuse themselves!!

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, we’re fine 🙂 . They figure out ways to amuse themselves!!

I have friends who've lived in apartments and condos and the reported a huge learning curve for the kids to remember how to not annoy neighbors. Mom felt like she was constantly shushing the kids, telling them to speak more quietly in the evenings, keeping the kids from instrument practice at times of day when neighbors might be home, telling them to stop wrestling around...I think going from a stand alone home to an apartment would have to be hard! 

The noise thing would really be hard for my family, my dh and I included. We're a very noisy bunch! Loud voices, LOTS of loud laughing, tickle wars, pillow fights, etc.

[SereneHome]

OK ladies, this has been fun, but I can't keep replying to numerous people who bring up all kinds of things that didn't have anything to do with OP or my post. So, here is to summarize where I stand

1. Therapy is great and needed. Therapy bc someone touched you once or twice is leading a charmed life. (and bc I can see a slew of many posts coming up with 1000 examples - I am only talking about a few unrelated occurrences)

2. A child living at home and coming to parent with feelings of being unsafe-  needs to be seriously addressed. A 20 yr old coming for a visit and not feeling safe bc conversation wasn't pleasant - needs a serious reality check

3. Sexual harassment is bad. Sexual assault is horrible. None of that was described in OP. I never commented on actual harassment or assault, only on what was described in OP.

Overall, I think, as with many other issues, things start to improve in certain areas of life, but then go completely overboard. I think it's great to recognize feelings and bad behaviour and address both. I think it's ludicrous to where it has gone in many instances. I think OP is one of those instances.

Now, if you all want to pick my words apart, by all means.

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I have friends who've lived in apartments and condos and the reported a huge learning curve for the kids to remember how to not annoy neighbors. Mom felt like she was constantly shushing the kids, telling them to speak more quietly in the evenings, keeping the kids from instrument practice at times of day when neighbors might be home, telling them to stop wrestling around...I think going from a stand alone home to an apartment would have to be hard! 

The noise thing would really be hard for my family, my dh and I included. We're a very noisy bunch! Loud voices, LOTS of loud laughing, tickle wars, pillow fights, etc.

I’m sure the adjustment thing was part of it.  Any time we caravan or camp or stay in town there’s a whole lot of shh.. shh going on!  

[kiwik]

4 hours ago, Home'scool said:

I agree with this. Words have power. I remember watching Dr. Phil once and there was a divorced woman who was spending the first Christmas without her children. She said she was devastated. Dr. Phil helped her put words to it that didn't imply life-ending. I always try to remember that .

Yes, when I went to college it was much cheaper. But, the cafeteria was gross and only open for very limited hours, the library closed at 10;00 pm so good luck finding somewhere to study and when finals came the only accommodation made was quiet hours in the dorms. 

When my daughters went to college their cafeteria had won national awards for the food, it is open from 5:00 am to 10pm and then again for "late night snacks" at 11:00 pm, the library is open 24 hours and has it's own 24 hour cafe, they had food trucks and delivery from the cafeteria, bouncy houses and puppies were brought in during finals for stress relief. They did not have the stripped down education I had. 

I would rather have the cheaper version.  Puppies and bouncy castles? Late night food?  

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

Someone did touch my boobs, many someone's. I had to carry an empty giant file to keep from my boob being touched even when covered from neck to ankles with just my hands and feet showing and a scarf pinned in front of said boobs. It was utterly dehumanizing and violating. My life was far from charmed. 

How many times does one's boob need to touched, brushed or should it be groped or cupped to not be a special snowflake who complains and not be accused of leading a charmed life ? 

 

That is a bit different.  If it is inherent in the culture to the point you feel like you will be touched every time you see a male then you are being sexually harassed especially if you cannot strongly object.  If it is once at a party and you will be supported if you tell him to keep his hands to himself then it will do nothing but make you feel a miserable victim to dwell on it. 

[Not_a_Number]

31 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I have friends who've lived in apartments and condos and the reported a huge learning curve for the kids to remember how to not annoy neighbors. Mom felt like she was constantly shushing the kids, telling them to speak more quietly in the evenings, keeping the kids from instrument practice at times of day when neighbors might be home, telling them to stop wrestling around...I think going from a stand alone home to an apartment would have to be hard! 

The noise thing would really be hard for my family, my dh and I included. We're a very noisy bunch! Loud voices, LOTS of loud laughing, tickle wars, pillow fights, etc.

We do make noise, lol. We do try not to have them stomp, but we’ve generally lived in apartments where voices don’t carry that much.

[SereneHome]

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

More importantly, teach your sons about consent 😉 .

And theoretically, what do you do if making waves may derail your career? 

Speaking for myself only.....I have picked a profession where I could always find a job. I have never been very career oriented, I never wanted to be a CEO. I was Sr. Manager - that's as far as I wanted to go. I also knew that I would never file any kind of law suits. I probably wouldn't have even filed a complaint. Just would get another job. Bc at the end of the day - I cared only about myself and how it would affect my own life.

I can tell you that I've seen women who did wanted a career handle this kind of stuff  in many different ways, some of them not so nice. But they did what they had to, in the system that was not easy. I haven't worked in corporate for about 10 yrs....may be things have changed....

[SereneHome]

17 minutes ago, kand said:

It’s great that it wouldn’t be traumatizing for you, especially since you say it’s something that has happened to you. People don’t necessarily get to choose if something messes with their head, though. I’m a tough person. I didn’t go to my parents when something like what you describe happened to me. It was horribly disturbing for me, though I coped fine with it on my own. I would feel terrible if my own kids didn’t feel like they could tell me something like that because I would belittle them for being so upset. I have at least one kid who would be devastated by a thing like that. She doesn’t have the same kind of emotional resilience I do. I can’t make her have it, no matter how much I want to.  “Needing therapy” isn’t something someone should be shamed for, no matter how silly you think the reason is. 

 

 

OK, you are right. You make a great point.

Would your kid need therapy after that one time? I am not being snarky, I am really curious. Bc I see what you are saying and of course I understand that people handle things differently, but therapy after someone touched your waist?

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Speaking for myself only.....I have picked a profession where I could always find a job. I have never been very career oriented, I never wanted to be a CEO. I was Sr. Manager - that's as far as I wanted to go. I also knew that I would never file any kind of law suits. I probably wouldn't have even filed a complaint. Just would get another job. Bc at the end of the day - I cared only about myself and how it would affect my own life.

I think it's harder when it's a more limited field, like, say, academia. There wasn't really a good way for me to handle my specific issue. 

 

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I can tell you that I've seen women who did wanted a career handle this kind of stuff  in many different ways, some of them not so nice. But they did what they had to, in the system that was not easy. I haven't worked in corporate for about 10 yrs....may be things have changed....

Yeah, it's a bad system. I agree that I didn't find it traumatic, and that perhaps some of the ways we talk about it nowadays make young women feel MORE upset than they might otherwise. But I wonder if some of that is because an illusion of equality is ripped away? 

I haven't talked to my girls about this stuff yet. It breaks my heart that I'm going to have to, frankly. DD8 is so incredibly smart and original and interesting. It sickens me that there will be men that treat her as an object, but I know that there will be. And I don't know how I'll talk to her about that. I'm sure I'll do so when she's older... 

[Amy Gen]

When I was a teenager, my boss came up behind me when I was working. He pretended to rub my shoulders which creeped me out, but then he put his hand down my shirt and grabbed my breast. 
 

I jumped up and ran into the next office and locked myself in. I called his girlfriend who was the manager. She was out sick that day. She believed me, and rushed to the office to get me and drive me home. 
 

My mother, on the other hand, asked me what I was wearing. I was wearing baggy jeans, a t shirt, a button down shirt and a sweatshirt with tennis shoes and no make up. Why does that even matter? 
 

I quit my good job because I didn’t want to go back. Because I was a minor, my mother was on my savings account. She used that opportunity to spend all of the money I had saved when working. 
 

I know that the person who has been violated should choose how the incident is handled, but if something like that happened to one of my daughters, I would encourage them to file a report. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Amy Gen said:

My mother, on the other hand, asked me what I was wearing. I was wearing baggy jeans, a t shirt, a button down shirt and a sweatshirt with tennis shoes and no make up. Why does that even matter? 

Sigh. The "victim blaming" phrase gets really overused, but there's pure victim blaming right there. 

[SereneHome]

21 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I am glad (no snark) that you cannot empathize with being inappropriately touched "once or twice" because that experience is dehumanizing and anyone who think that is not necessarily traumatizing has no experience themselves in what it really entails is the one with a charmed life. YMMV. Being "woke" is fighting against those sort of instances exactly because the line in the sand is no one will touch me in any form or fashion without my consent period. 

OP came out with more details about the "assault" in the later post that were scary, I am not sure I am ready to throw the daughter under the bus because we do not have details about why she feels that way. In a world where people being touched inappropriately and wanting therapy is called "special snowflake" I am going to take the daughter's side 🤷‍♀️

We are reading two different things based on our experiences.

I agree with you. Just like "feminism" has gone overboard in my native country. But you must ask yourself why ? In my native country women started "responding badly" because they were oppressed.

Movements will take time to stabilize because in my experience when you stand up as I did, I erupted. I was not rational or reasonable because all I saw was a wall of red because people did not listen to me. I became more reasonable once I was listened to. 

I hope to offer a perspective, not just pick apart your words.

I only read OP, so if there were further details, I didn't see it.

So, here is what my over all point was (I seem to have a horrible time getting it across)

I think people's ability to handle things in life doesn't necessarily depends on age or generation, but the comfort of life they have lead. And some of it is nature, of course.

So, for example, when I was 20 and someone touched me, I didn't have time to worry about it bc I was too busy learning English, figuring out how to do college, how to keep two jobs to pay for that college (I didn't know the existence of student loans), etc etc. May be if I had more time on my hands, I would be sitting there thinking how dare he touch me and this is causing me such distress and it would go on and on. Or may be it's just my nature and I wouldn't pay attention either way.

I will say that this is probably a bad example of "handling life" bc this is such a personal thing.
But in general, I do very much believe what I said above.

Oh a side note - I love reading your posts and your experiences.

 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

So, for example, when I was 20 and someone touched me, I didn't have time to worry about it bc I was too busy learning English, figuring out how to do college, how to keep two jobs to pay for that college (I didn't know the existence of student loans), etc etc.

Or maybe you were just resilient. Or lucky. 

The first time someone touched me I was 13 or 14 or so. We had immigrated about 3 years before that. I was still learning English as well. I had my second stepfather at the moment, whom I really didn't like. I felt alienated at school. I wasn't a happy camper. 

And yet being groped by a 50+ year old "family friend" felt profoundly destabilizing and traumatic. I still remember where it was (in my room in my then-stepfather's house) and what he said ("I want to check how you're developing.") I don't remember anything else about it, to be honest, except that my mom had been having a party and they'd been drinking. 

It really colored my feelings about sexuality for a long time. Frankly, it's possible it still does. 

When I had my unpleasant "weird experience" with an older professor in my 20s, that wasn't traumatic in the same way. But it wasn't because my life was less comfortable. It was just easier to deal with at that point in my life. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[dirty ethel rackham]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

True story. My DD has college paid for thanks to DH and I and she came to me, two weeks ago, upset that I hadn’t told her she might have a communal bathroom in college. She declared she didn’t want to go (not an option). She’d seen some kind of YouTube or TV show, I dunno. In any case, she had serious questions (deeply furrowed brows) about how she was supposed to get to/from the shower in nothing but a towel, as is her habit. After laughing myself into a solid ab workout, explaining the mechanics of a bathroom caddy and robe, she skulked away, suitably chastened and embarrassed. I don’t expect I’ll have to say another word on the subject. Definitely no harassment/assault issue but funny nonetheless. Sometimes they just don’t know what they don’t know.

Why would you feel the need to belittle her ignorance of the situation?  If she had never experienced this and she was accustomed to leaving the shower in just a towel and it wasn't common to wear a robe, it would be reasonable to extrapolate that to a communal bathroom and be freaked out.  You could have been amused, but simply educated her rather than making her feel "chastened and embarrassed."  It could have been a funny shared moment rather than a divisive, humiliating thing.   
This hit me because I had a whole family who loved to humiliate me any time I didn't understand things.  While I did learn to research stuff on my own, I also learned not to ask for help or to question things because I feared humiliation.  I flunked out of my major in college because I couldn't ask for help.  (Then when I did get up the nerve to ask for help, I had a professor tell me to go home and make babies rather than taking up a spot from a man.)  

Do we really want to model humiliation and intimidation rather than appropriate conflict resolution?  Is that the lesson we want to teach?  

[Amy Gen]

I do think there is something to natural resiliency. I was affected by what my boss did, partly because the rest of my life was such chaos and it cost me my income and my savings and I was in such a bad home environment that I already felt trapped. 
 

But I do think I have natural strength. I had a friend/ business partner who was a hypochondriac. Three times when she knew I was actively having a miscarriage and it was her turn to work she bailed on me because she had a headache or her dog was acting funny and might be sick. 
 

I ended up waiting on customers and squeezing my legs together while they payed so I could get to bathroom before I lost the baby on the sales floor accidentally. 
 

When I was explaining to my adult daughter why I didn’t want to be friends or partners with above person any longer, she said, “We can’t all be you, Mom.” 
 

That really was a helpful thing for me to hear. I needed to not  judge other people by what I would do, because other people aren’t me. 
 

I see this from the outside with my husband who really can’t relate to our son because my husband is as stable as a rock and our son has debilitating anxiety and depression. I find myself saying, “We can’t all be you.” 
 

And while I was traumatized by that year I had 3 miscarriages after seeing a heartbeat each time, it was less than when my boss put his hand down my shirt, at least partly because my life was much more stable and I was helpless over the miscarriages, but not helpless in the rest of my life. 
 

I think some people are just emotionally stronger and that sometimes even very strong people have a straw that breaks the camel’s back. 
 

I don’t always have to understand why something traumatizes someone to believe it does. 
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

This. Exactly this. When the first time anyone touches is inappropriate, it colors your sexuality in ways you do not find out until later.

And the tragedy is that I don't think I can protect my kids from this. I can try to, but unless I want to keep them in a bubble, you can't be sure. 

[Amy Gen]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

And the tragedy is that I don't think I can protect my kids from this. I can try to, but unless I want to keep them in a bubble, you can't be sure. 

We can’t, but we can make sure that they know that if anything ever happens that upsets them, they can come to mom and be heard and we can make a plan together. 
 

For myself, I believe that a watched kid is less of a target, so I’m the mom who is always watching from a little distance. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Depends on what was said.  If it was directly in reference to sexual assault unfortunately discussing politics could be triggering.  I can’t say more here without crossing a no politics line.   

 

If I knew exactly how the conversation went I might change my mind as I did when more details of the waist touching were given. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

For myself, I believe that a watched kid is less of a target, so I’m the mom who is always watching from a little distance. 

I dunno. Who in the world makes sure a 14 year old is not ever in her own room during a party for family friends, though?? That's just weird. And the most common perpetrators really ARE family friends and other people one respects 😕. 

 

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

My generation growing up had so much trauma about bad touch that now in my native country where sexual things are not talked about, children are taught, both boys and girls about "good" touch and "bad" touch. 

That is one of my biggest fears as a parent too. I am super vigilant.

We haven't emphasized that, but we've been SUPER protective of their right to not consent to touch. DD8 is not a hugger, and I tell her that she does NOT have to hug anyone. Yes, including grandparents. Yes, even if it hurts their feelings. (We've added some nuance to this message as she's gotten older, but that's how it's always been.) 

[SereneHome]

37 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Or maybe you were just resilient. Or lucky. 

The first time someone touched me I was 13 or 14 or so. We had immigrated about 3 years before that. I was still learning English as well. I had my second stepfather at the moment, whom I really didn't like. I felt alienated at school. I wasn't a happy camper. 

And yet being groped by a 50+ year old "family friend" felt profoundly destabilizing and traumatic. I still remember where it was (in my room in my then-stepfather's house) and what he said ("I want to check how you're developing.") I don't remember anything else about it, to be honest, except that my mom had been having a party and they'd been drinking. 

It really colored my feelings about sexuality for a long time. Frankly, it's possible it still does. 

When I had my unpleasant "weird experience" with an older professor in my 20s, that wasn't traumatic in the same way. But it wasn't because my life was less comfortable. It was just easier to deal with at that point in my life. 

I was 12, and it wasn't in US. I do too...

 

 

[Amy Gen]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

6 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

 

I dunno. Who in the world makes sure a 14 year old is not ever in her own room during a party for family friends, though?? That's just weird. And the most common perpetrators really ARE family friends and other people one respects 😕. 

Ha! This is the exact situation that I thought of before I posted. In our friend group, we don’t drop kids off at parties. If there is a party, usually the kids are inside and the adults are in and out. This feels safer to me, but I realized that is the situation where children do get violated, particularly if their parents are drinking  

 

There is never going to be a guarantee. We can not prevent abuse 100% but in general, I think a kid that everyone knows is super close to their parents and is closely watched is a less easy target. It is kind of like hoping that having a dog will make a burglar pass by your house for an easier target. 
 

But it all changes once they grow up and get jobs and go off to school. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Ha! This is the exact situation that I thought of before I posted. In our friend group, we don’t drop kids off at parties. If there is a party, usually the kids are inside and the adults are in and out. This feels safer to me, but I realized that is the situation where children do get violated, particularly if their parents are drinking  

It was my room in my house, though. And who even notices if a family friend wanders off to the bathroom? 

I think having a sense for who the creeps are is the best plan, frankly. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I carried and wore my kids a lot because of that. 

Yeah, me too 🙂 . I still wear my 4 year old very occasionally... and it wasn't all that occasional before the pandemic, when she was almost 4. 

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

Why would you feel the need to belittle her ignorance of the situation?  If she had never experienced this and she was accustomed to leaving the shower in just a towel and it wasn't common to wear a robe, it would be reasonable to extrapolate that to a communal bathroom and be freaked out.  You could have been amused, but simply educated her rather than making her feel "chastened and embarrassed."  It could have been a funny shared moment rather than a divisive, humiliating thing.   
This hit me because I had a whole family who loved to humiliate me any time I didn't understand things.  While I did learn to research stuff on my own, I also learned not to ask for help or to question things because I feared humiliation.  I flunked out of my major in college because I couldn't ask for help.  (Then when I did get up the nerve to ask for help, I had a professor tell me to go home and make babies rather than taking up a spot from a man.)  

Do we really want to model humiliation and intimidation rather than appropriate conflict resolution?  Is that the lesson we want to teach?  

She was chastened and embarrassed because she assumed college would be just like home, it won’t, and I told her so. In our household, we don’t pussyfoot around ignorance. She’s been on multiple college tours and never paid a lick of attention despite prompting. Only in the last year has it dawned on her that she will not have all the creature comforts of home. She wanted her own bathroom at college, better yet, her own apartment instead of a dorm with a communal bathroom. Not.Gonna.Happen. We have some means but we’re not wealthy. No need to feel sorry for her and please don’t project. She’s not abused or browbeaten just waking up to new and somewhat unpleasant realities. This kid has had tons and tons of support and guidance in this area. Self-advocacy in all areas, particularly academic ones, is a goal we explicitly work on in MS/HS.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, kand said:

Us to, but when one dd tried to assert this right not to hug when she was about 9 after we had talked her through what to say, it resulted in her getting in big trouble with the grandparents for being rude (she was spending the night, so we weren't there) followed by a big blow up between us and the grandparents when we heard about it. 😪

Ugh. We haven't had this happen yet, although we're sometimes around when there are issues and we defend her then. But nowadays, we aren't always around. 

What happened after that, if you don't mind me asking? 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No need to feel sorry for her and please don’t project.

Sometimes I feel like I need to put "please don't project" into my signature... 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sometimes I feel like I need to put "please don't project" into my signature... 

Yeah, it’s laughable if you knew how we work with our teens. We talk about this kind of stuff all the time but they don’t always listen. Then, they wander in stupefied with some revelation or other that we’ve discussed over dinner numerous times. Yes, it’s funny. Laugh or cry, laugh or cry. DD literally came to confront me and declared she had a bone to pick. It still makes me chuckle. This isn’t a kid who’s afraid to ask questions or intimidated about approaching us.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Although if time and money were available some self defence classes may actually be quite helpful with all the problems here.  They would help her feel stronger and more capable of dealing with problems that arise instead of vulnerable.

 

That’s probably true.

my son’s black belt friend has tremendous emotional strength which may partly relate to feeling physically very capable 

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, kand said:

I don't know as far as my own kid. My own kid needs therapy and hasn't ever had something like that happen, so I certainly can't see a thing like that making it better, you know? I did wonder how old your kids were when you said if you had girls you would make sure you raised them to not be traumatized by that. Now that I'm on laptop and I see your oldest is 12, that comment is in context more. I've unfortunately found I don't have nearly as much power to determine how my kids will be when they are young adults as I thought I did when they were younger. I wasn't able to raise my dd not to have anxiety even though it's not an issue for me and I know all kinds of methods to suggest to counter it.

Us to, but when one dd tried to assert this right not to hug when she was about 9 after we had talked her through what to say, it resulted in her getting in big trouble with the grandparents for being rude (she was spending the night, so we weren't there) followed by a big blow up between us and the grandparents when we heard about it. 😪

I don't know if I ever would be successful or not....I just know that I would try. I haven't had a hard life but I certainly have dealt with crap. I am trying to prepare my kids to be able to deal with crap. And some crap is more serious than other. And I think if you make little crap seem big, when really big stuff happens, you can easily fall apart. I am hoping and praying that my kids can know and handle the difference.

I have a kid who stresses out about everything. I have a kid who is sensitive in a very private way. I don't know what will happen in 10-15 yrs when they are navigating life on their own, but today I am working on preparing them.

Interestingly enough, the blow out was between my husband and I when my then 5 yr old told his grandparents (my husband's parents) that "my mom told me I don't have to hug you". 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

32 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I have a kid who stresses out about everything. I have a kid who is sensitive in a very private way. I don't know what will happen in 10-15 yrs when they are navigating life on their own, but today I am working on preparing them.

I try to prepare my kids, too. But honestly, I'm not sure that the best preparation isn't simply having a stable home life and reserves of strength that carry you forward inside you. They've made the most difference for my ability to get through things. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[SereneHome]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I try to prepare my kids, too. But honestly, I'm not sure that the best preparation isn't simply having a stable home life and reserves of strengths that carry you forward inside you. They've made the most difference for my ability to get through things. 

I know people always say that.... And I am pretty sure we are stable loving family and yet, sometimes I look at my kids and the things that gets them all upset and I start to wonder if they will be able to handle anything.... We shall see....

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SereneHome said:

I know people always say that.... And I am pretty sure we are stable loving family and yet, sometimes I look at my kids and the things that gets them all upset and I start to wonder if they will be able to handle anything.... We shall see....

Well, they are kids 🙂 . Teach them to know themselves and to work with what they have. You can't help people having sensitivities or weaknesses. You can only teach them to work with them.