Musing about something with attractive work partners

[LucyStoner]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

That is true.  However even on this huge board, with all kinds of y’all having come out of corporate America I am not seeing that it is currently a widespread problem.  

 

So first it's not a problem because you don't know of any examples.  People bring some examples to your attention.  People point out that there are professions where this *really matters* (and not just in corporate America) and gently remind you that you might not know what you don't know about these other professions.  So NOW, you can see that there are examples but you, with no experience in those industries, feel it's appropriate to declare that you don't see that it's currently a widespread problem?  The goal posts are moving.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

No, I'm saying that if a man won't eat a meal alone with every employee, he shouldn't eat a meal alone with any employee.  

I would amend that to say for work purposes. I don’t care who people have  friendly non work related lunches with. But if women have to juggle their time to accommodate men or to have a chaperone then  men should have to do the same. And I can guarantee that most men won’t put up with it for themselves. 

[Amira]

I volunteer in a position where I work with several men on an individual basis.  Most of the men are fine with meeting with me alone to maintain the privacy of the people we’re helping, or with me restocking the food pantry when no one else is around except him, or giving me a ride home if it’s after dark.  But one man absolutely will not be alone with me no matter what, to the point that it’s nearly impossible to discuss private issues with him. His wife or another adult has to be around all the time and he leaves me to walk home alone at night.  While I’m comfortable in my neighborhood, I live in one of the largest cities in the the world and have been harassed and groped on the streets here, and I know women who have been more violently assaulted.  It’s certainly safer for me to get a ride home alone with him than walk home alone by myself.  But he knows he’s safe, and he wouldn’t ever think that his rule has any negative affect on me.  

The Mike Pence rule makes me less effective in a volunteer situation with no potential to move up any ladder.  I have zero trouble believing that it has a major effect on women in a corporate situation. It’s a form of systemic sexism.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Amira

[Scarlett]

38 minutes ago, katilac said:

Why does it have to be a widespread problem to be important? If your dh is fired over something unfair, should I shrug in response and say, well, I am not seeing that as a widespread problem Scarlett, so quit worrying about it? 

I would expect those close to me would show me a lot of empathy and concern.  

[Scarlett]

36 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

So first it's not a problem because you don't know of any examples.  People bring some examples to your attention.  People point out that there are professions where this *really matters* (and not just in corporate America) and gently remind you that you might not know what you don't know about these other professions.  So NOW, you can see that there are examples but you, with no experience in those industries, feel it's appropriate to declare that you don't see that it's currently a widespread problem?  The goal posts are moving.  

Amira did provide an example of how it causes her a problem.  Other than that I have not seen examples of how it has actually caused problems.  I read through the links you posted.  Yes, I can see how in certain industries woman can be affected. So I don't know what the solution is for these situations.  Due to the actions of a few it seems everyone has to suffer. And when men try to protect themselves they are accused of being sexist.  Maybe sometimes it is a deliberate attempt to keep women out of the good ole' boys club.  Maybe sometimes it is just a man doing his best to support his family, make his wife feel safe in their relationship and to avoid a situation where a vindictive woman can falsely accuse him of misconduct.

As much as we want things to be equal for all, it just isn't.  Maybe I have accepted that and I don't really see it changing.  If I knew a woman in that situation I would strongly encourage her to reconsider the type of work she was in. 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

As much as we want things to be equal for all, it just isn't.  Maybe I have accepted that and I don't really see it changing.  If I knew a woman in that situation I would strongly encourage her to reconsider the type of work she was in. 

Why the woman? Why should not the man who feels he needs to put up those rules reconsider the type of work he is in?

[Scarlett]

Just now, regentrude said:

Why the woman? Why should not the man who feels he needs to put up those rules reconsider the type of work he is in?

I said if I knew a woman in that situation.  So that would be why I would give the woman any advice.  

[katilac]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Why the woman? Why should not the man who feels he needs to put up those rules reconsider the type of work he is in?

*mic drop*

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

*mic drop*

Btw, I am pretty sure I said that up thread.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

The situation in Mississippi where male gubernatorial candidates refused to let female reporters travel with them or interview them 1:1, while letting male reporters do the same, doesn't strike you as a problem? 

An action doesn't have to be intentionally sexist (or racist, or ableist, or. . . . )  to be discriminatory, or illegal.  

Why do you feel that the right of the man to support his family should be valued over the right of a woman to support her family?  

Some of us haven't accepted it, and the U.S. government has pretty clearly said that they don't consider this something that is acceptable under law.  

For generations Americans have looked the other way about segregation, and institutionalization, and other discriminatory unequal practices on the grounds that they "just weren't going to change", and then they did.  Sexism can change too. 

Our country needs more women in certain fields.  in my field, education, we need more men.  If people walk away from jobs because of discrimination it hurts everyone.  

Don't put words in my mouth. That is not what I said. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

You said the following

How should I read that other than if a man's desire to support his family interferes with her job, that presumably supports her and her family, she should leave the job?  

If there's another way to read this, please tell me.  

If it's a typo and you meant to say that if you knew a man in this situation, you'd encourage him to quit, I can understand it, but otherwise I can't read it any other way.   

I was only talking about what I would say to a woman who had a job that was problematic for her.  Obviously, if the man was  in the position of power he would probably not be complaining.  I am highly unlikely to have  man like MP ask me for my opinion of the matter of that rule.  But if I did I would tell him the same thing.  Go find a job where your beliefs and marital boundaries don't cause harm to others.  

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Because it would apply to any employment situation or social situation as a blanket principle? And isn’t inherently problematic, as I explained in detail several times back in the thread.

Yes.  I was thinking earlier that MY solution (not that this would ever happen) is to stop the way that sort of business is conducted in the first place.  Insane hours, doing business over meals, and golf courses etc....that should just not happen in the first place.  And as @Arctic Mama pointed out earlier, there are ways to conduct business with glass wall conference rooms so that confidential conversations can happen without any problem.  

[Corraleno]

I think the fundamental disconnect here is that some people think that working lunches and one-on-one meetings between people of opposite genders are, by definition, a "problem" that needs to be "solved," and if the various solutions generally impact female workers in a negative way, oh well.

And other people (who actually have experienced working in careers where this is common) don't think the meetings themselves are problematic at all, and the actual problem is some people's unwillingness to accept that men and women are capable of behaving professionally without there being some level of sexual tension or temptation or "danger" there. The idea that it's acceptable for a man (whether consciously or unconsciously) to damage a woman's career in order to "keep his marriage safe" or "protect his wife's feelings" is just patriarchal BS — women should not have to sacrifice their careers to keep men from having affairs or to keep idiots from gossiping. 

[EmseB]

25 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Uh, because it’s his personal religious practice and belief dictated by conscience as well as best practices in his work environment, supported by HR in how THEY have told the managers to interface with employees of either sex. And when it comes to client meetings it’s doubly important to have more ears on the situation so it doesn’t become a situation of telephone for contracts.

Oh wait, maybe it’s because he’s a closet sexist and nobody noticed yet.  Yeah I’m sure that’s it. He just happens to hire a huge diversity of green EITs straight from college, based on their performance and professor reviews, with the intent of mentoring and growing them to be the best engineers possible, but because he is careful in this aspect surely he is harming their careers.  Right.

Is there any HR department or company lawyers that would advocate for bosses and subordinates to meet privately, one-on-one, routinely behind closed doors? Places where that is considered advisable business practice? Without any type of CYA in place? 

I honestly don't think this is purely an issue of sexual impropriety or appearances. Any number of issues crop up when you have a disagreement about something like intellectual property or who is at fault or who was promised what...and if all that happens with no record and just a he said/she said account of a meeting? It seems like any lawyer would say that's not good business or personal practice. But I tend to watch too much Judge Judy. And have also attended too many military SAP trainings, lol.

Edited July 2, 2020 by EmseB

[Corraleno]

27 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Is there any HR department or company lawyers that would advocate for bosses and subordinates to meet privately, one-on-one, routinely behind closed doors? Places where that is considered advisable business practice? Without any type of CYA in place? 

I honestly don't think this is purely an issue of sexual impropriety or appearances. Any number of issues crop up when you have a disagreement about something like intellectual property or who is at fault or who was promised what...and if all that happens with no record and just a he said/she said account of a meeting? It seems like any lawyer would say that's not good business or personal practice. But I tend to watch too much Judge Judy. And have also attended too many military SAP trainings, lol.

The idea that people who work together should never discuss anything in a room with a closed door is totally bizarre to me. It doesn't even have to be some super secret confidential discussion — sometimes people just want to have a conversation without being interrupted. Sometimes the office is noisy and people just want to have a quiet conversation without listening to other people's conversations or the copier making noise or everyone singing Happy Birthday to Suzi in Accounting.

The idea that two people sitting in an office having a conversation is so inherently scary and dangerous that it cannot be allowed to happen is just not something I ever encountered in more than two decades of working in a variety of careers.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Is there any HR department or company lawyers that would advocate for bosses and subordinates to meet privately, one-on-one, routinely behind closed doors? Places where that is considered advisable business practice? Without any type of CYA in place? 

I honestly don't think this is purely an issue of sexual impropriety or appearances. Any number of issues crop up when you have a disagreement about something like intellectual property or who is at fault or who was promised what...and if all that happens with no record and just a he said/she said account of a meeting? It seems like any lawyer would say that's not good business or personal practice. But I tend to watch too much Judge Judy. And have also attended too many military SAP trainings, lol.

As a professor, I am often in the situation where I have a one-on-one conversation in which no one else knows the content of the conversation  Our offices have windows so that someone can view to whom I am talking and could see if there was inappropriate physical contact, but the content of the conversation is 100% confidential.  I also have a number of times where I need to discuss a confidential situation with a department chair or program director.  

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As a professor, I am often in the situation where I have a one-on-one conversation in which no one else knows the content of the conversation  Our offices have windows so that someone can view to whom I am talking and could see if there was inappropriate physical contact, but the content of the conversation is 100% confidential.  I also have a number of times where I need to discuss a confidential situation with a department chair or program director.  

Yep. My DH is department chair, and many conversations in his office are confidential. Being a public uni with no money, we have a building from the 60s and no fancy glass walls. When I meet with students in my office, I usually leave the door open if we just talk physics, but if there is sensitive information they want to discuss, like grades, personal situations, or disabilities, I have to close the door for privacy reasons. There is no extra person sitting in on these conversations  - who should that even be? (aside from the fact that my office can barely hold me and one other person)

[regentrude]

Been thinking about this discussion and the issue of reputations, and one question occurred to me: even IF a person says they have a policy of not meeting one on one, if somebody were out to ruin their reputation, what if they just claimed an inappropriate interaction happened one-on-one? Nobody has a witness 24 hours every day. If it comes down to accusations, claiming you would never do a certain thing isn't going to be terribly helpful.

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, isn't that what ensuring witnesses are present is really all about?  Sure, no one has a witness 24/7......but really....is it so terribly difficult to ensure that witnesses are present for the 40 to 50 hours people are at work each week?  

Yes. It would be completely impossible for me to create witnesses for any meetings I have with students - who do you think I should recruit to drop what they are doing so they can sit in on my meetings? (Even leaving my door open may not generate witnesses - depending on time of day, there may be a crowd of 20 hovering in the hallway, or I am alone on the floor.)
My DH's office is connected to the main office where the secretaries work, and he could leave the door open if the content is not confidential, but the secretaries go home at 4:30pm. Who is going to watch his meetings between then and 7pm? Seriously, which organization has spare people to chaperone their coworkers? No academic institution I am aware of does; people have plenty of their own work to do.

Edited July 2, 2020 by regentrude

[Bootsie]

10 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, isn't that what ensuring witnesses are present is really all about?  Sure, no one has a witness 24/7......but really....is it so terribly difficult to ensure that witnesses are present for the 40 to 50 hours people are at work each week?  

I would have to intentionally go out of my way, as some of my coworkers would have to do, to make sure that there were never two of us alone without a witness.  For the past couple of years we officed in a trailer during a building project.  Two people were the first two there in the morning.  Should they wait to enter the trailer until a third shows up to work as a witness?  If I am in an empty classroom and the first student walks in, do I need to tell the student to leave until another student arrives?  Can I not allow a student to leave the classroom if there is only one remaining student?  On the night of the week that I have night class and am packing up to leave, and the only person remaining in the trailer, should the janitorial staff send two people rather than one because there are two of us alone?  When I am leading a study abroad program, should the other professor and I not have coffee together in the morning as we discuss the day's schedule?  When a student drops by to tell me that the reason she has been doing so poorly in my class is that she is unexpectedly pregnant and doesn't know what to do, who should suddenly be the witness?  When a student comes by to discuss the accommodations he needs in my class because of a medical condition, who should be the witness?  

Edited July 2, 2020 by Bootsie

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well I see 2 options here....off the top of my head.

Leave the door open and schedule office hours for the time of day when crowds in the hall are common.  Given that class schedule don't generally change once the semester has started, that shouldn't be difficult to plan.

Or....schedule meetings for the library when even if they have to be private, they can be in the glass windowed rooms.  

 

I don't imagine professors can fit in all their office hours by scheduling them around crowds in the hallway. Plus, they're supposed to be at somewhat varied times, so more students are able to use them. 

On many campuses, the library may be a 20 minute walk from the professor's office. And office hours can't be all scheduled meetings, it's meant to be a time when students can drop in. 

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Based on DD24's school situation, which is very much different than mine was......I am not so sure that most professors in a general university system have gotten such a message.

I mean, your statement is correct.  But since it has always seemed to me that professors often generally schedule office hours when it's convenient for them, and without regard for their students (between myself, DH, and DD24, there have been approx 5 yrs or so in the last 25 yrs that I haven't had personal experience with college, so I am not just basing this on college when I was 19)  I can't see how professors could find it so impossible to mesh the concepts of meeting when lots of folks are around AND when students are available.  

 

A small percentage of people think that no man should ever be alone in a room with a woman, therefore all businesses, universities, and all other entities that employee both men and women should have to jump through hoops to appease them? How about any man or woman who is afraid to be alone with a member of the opposite sex just avoids any job where that occurs? Adding layers of hassle and inconvenience to "solve" a "problem" that most people do not consider at all problematic makes no sense.

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I have a real question.....

How does this situation play out if it's the woman that is uncomfortable?    I stated earlier in the thread, and it's a statistical fact that from a statistical standpoint, men are more likely to be sexual predators than women.

Is it acceptable for a woman to have a policy of never being alone with a man due to her own concerns of sexual assault?

I can understand a woman not wanting to be alone with a specific person who has demonstrated by his behavior that he is a creeper. But I think a woman who refuses to ever be alone in a room with a man because she thinks every male human is a potential sexual predator might want to seek counseling for that level of fear. I spent 10 years in college, and probably averaged at least one meeting per week with a professor behind closed doors, and never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. I worked for more than two decades in jobs that often involved being alone with a male coworker, either in an office or on a job site or in a restaurant, and never felt uncomfortable or unsafe. I think people who find that situation inherently fearful or worrisome assume those fears are justified and therefore most women must feel that way, but that's not true any of the women I worked with, went to school with, or know IRL.

 

[2squared]

Treating male and female employees differently is sexist. Doesn’t matter if no one knows or it’s for a religious belief or if it’s to make a spouse feel better. It’s sexist. I have seven direct reports. If I meet with my male employees in glass conference rooms but my females employees in my office, that is treating them differently. If I have a rule I’d never be alone with my male employees but I would with my female employees, that is treating them differently. I would be extremely disappointed with myself if I didn’t treat my employees exactly the same. I never think, this person is male, so xyz treatment is needed. Either I meet with everyone in the glass conference room, or I meet with none of them there. In fact, I would feel terrible if an employee figured it out - My boss meets with me in xyz room, but she meets with the rest of the team in her office. It’s bound to be noticed at some point, and then I would have set up our company for adverse actions.

You could extend the same thought to age or race. If I have a personal rule to to never meet alone with my employees > 60 years old but I can with younger employees, that’s wrong.

If I have a personal rule to never meet alone with my Native American employees but I can with my Caucasian employees, that’s wrong. 

I am very surprised people cannot see sexism in this Billy Graham rule, but maybe I shouldn’t be surprised? I expect this inherent bias happens more often than I realize.  

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The idea that people who work together should never discuss anything in a room with a closed door is totally bizarre to me. It doesn't even have to be some super secret confidential discussion — sometimes people just want to have a conversation without being interrupted. Sometimes the office is noisy and people just want to have a quiet conversation without listening to other people's conversations or the copier making noise or everyone singing Happy Birthday to Suzi in Accounting.

The idea that two people sitting in an office having a conversation is so inherently scary and dangerous that it cannot be allowed to happen is just not something I ever encountered in more than two decades of working in a variety of careers.

And what about performance reviews?  By almost every companies policy, they are to be confidential between employee and manager.  I worked for a company of over 1,000 employees.  No way could HR have someone sit in on every performance review and nobody else had the right to know anything about the results.

This conversation reminded me that when I was an executive assistant, more than once I worked late with only my immediate manager (male) there with me.  The boss I supported directly was female but also traveled a lot.  We had submissions that had to be entered into a system between certain hours, which happened to be European time for some of them, so very late our time.  I was the only one who knew how to work the system so I had to stay until all the submissions were ready so I could upload them.  My manager had to finish the financial documents that I then had to upload.   We weren't in a private room or office but we were the only people still at work at least in our side of the building/our floor (there were basically 3 floors divided into 2 sides each by lobbies).   There would have been no way to require another person to stay 4 hours past the usual quitting time just to make sure we weren't alone together.  That would be asinine.  

I was way more uncomfortable the few times I had to work really late on my own.  An office that size completely empty is a creepy place. 

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What if he has never given off creeper vibes, and she doesn't actually believe every male human is a potential predator.......but still feels uncomfortable.

If the man she's meeting with has never given her any reason to believe he's a threat, and she doesn't see men as potential sexual predators by default, then why would she be afraid she was going to be assaulted if she met with him?

Would having a second man in the room make her feel more comfortable?

Unless the door is actually locked to prevent her from escaping, which would never happen in a normal office or university interaction, why is a closed door scarier than an open door? Anyone could suddenly open a closed door, and an open door (or glass door) may not have anyone passing by.

If an open door or another person in the room or nearby makes the interaction "safe," then why isn't a working lunch or dinner in a crowded restaurant safe? 

 

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I mean....we can assume that every adult person who ever leads any sort of youth organization (scouts, ball teams, youth group leaders) is not a sexual predator and yet......we are totally comfortable with the concept that no adult is ever alone with a child....regardless of gender (and regardless of the statistics regarding adult males vs adult females.)

You don't see the difference between an interaction between a child and an adult, and an interaction between two adults? 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Well I see 2 options here....off the top of my head.

Leave the door open and schedule office hours for the time of day when crowds in the hall are common.  Given that class schedule don't generally change once the semester has started, that shouldn't be difficult to plan.

Or....schedule meetings for the library when even if they have to be private, they can be in the glass windowed rooms.  

 

I am not looking to take this to extreme ends.  If there is absolutely NO OTHER way to have a one on one meeting between a professor an a student than at 7pm, in the professor's office, with no one else around, and there can't possibly be any other solution........sure, have at it.  I mean, generally speaking, most professors aren't going to sexually assault a student, so yeah, generally speaking that sort of situation is perfectly safe anyway.

 

 

At my school, faculty offices are not on the same floor as classrooms.  My office is in a suite area where there are not generally crowds in the hallway any time of day.  I teach some students who work during the day and I must meet with them after 5:00; I teach weekend classes and I can't meet with those students during the day when there are more people around.  Our library does not have glass windowed rooms that faculty can reserve for meetings.

...And I just realized I am in this situation right now. I am at my office doing a streamed lecture to a graduate class and we are on a break.  The campus is almost entirely deserted as most people are still working from home.  The male janitor just came into the office suite to clean and I think we are probably the only two people in the entire four story building right now.  

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As to the first bolded...it's likely because she knows statistics.  1 out of 6 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.  And 90% of sexual assault perpetrators are male.  I don't understand why, given those two statistics....it's weird to think that woman might be really extra cautious in one on one situations.  

What percentage of women do you think have been sexually assaulted by a coworker in their office during a normal workday, or in the middle of a working lunch in a restaurant? What percentage of women do you think have been sexually assaulted by a professor during office hours? 

Not being alone in a room with a guy you just met at a frat party is smart. Not going on a date with a guy you don't know to a remote place or his apartment is smart. Refusing to meet with a coworker during a normal workday because you're afraid he'll suddenly sexually assault you in his office? That is not a reasonable fear, statistically or otherwise.

[EmseB]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

As a professor, I am often in the situation where I have a one-on-one conversation in which no one else knows the content of the conversation  Our offices have windows so that someone can view to whom I am talking and could see if there was inappropriate physical contact, but the content of the conversation is 100% confidential.  I also have a number of times where I need to discuss a confidential situation with a department chair or program director.  

Okay, yeah, I guess I'm thinking of private as in no one could see in or anything. Or even if it was just having a recording of a meeting or something if no one could see what was happening. Confidential, I understand...no record of what happened or accountability for either party is what I'm wondering about.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Okay, yeah, I guess I'm thinking of private as in no one could see in or anything. Or even if it was just having a recording of a meeting or something if no one could see what was happening. Confidential, I understand...no record of what happened or accountability for either party is what I'm wondering about.

Who would do the recording?  How would it be stored? If it is confidential, who would be allowed to hear it?  Would both parties have to agree?  You have 1000 professors on a campus having every one-on-one conversations recorded every day?  How long would the records need to be kept?  I just don't see how that would be practical.

Having a third person in the room would not necessarily make me feel better.  If Person A gets to choose who Person C is, it could even be worse for Person B--because if Person A and C are working together or protecting each other, Person A now has a "witness" who protects and lies for Person A.  I have seen that play out in the workplace before.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

What percentage of women do you think have been sexually assaulted by a coworker in their office during a normal workday, or in the middle of a working lunch in a restaurant? What percentage of women do you think have been sexually assaulted by a professor during office hours? 

Not being alone in a room with a guy you just met at a frat party is smart. Not going on a date with a guy you don't know to a remote place or his apartment is smart. Refusing to meet with a coworker during a normal workday because you're afraid he'll suddenly sexually assault you in his office? That is not a reasonable fear, statistically or otherwise.

Okay, so you're saying women don't get sexually assaulted at work at high enough rates for an open door or glass window policy to be in effect? Or if I feel uncomfortable meeting with a coworker in private then I should ignore that feeling and do it anyway? I think there is a huge chasm of difference in any case between being alone in an office with someone with the door closed and no window and being in a restaurant with them. It's interesting you put those two things in the same category. They seem like apples and oranges to me 

What percentage of women would make this a problem in your view? How many women would have to be assaulted for it to be a reasonable standard for me to not want to be alone with someone in a closed door setting?

I'm not being snarky in case it sounds that way. I'm genuinely wondering because I've never heard this kind of advice before.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

What if he has never given off creeper vibes, and she doesn't actually believe every male human is a potential predator.......but still feels uncomfortable.

I mean....we can assume that every adult person who ever leads any sort of youth organization (scouts, ball teams, youth group leaders) is not a sexual predator and yet......we are totally comfortable with the concept that no adult is ever alone with a child....regardless of gender (and regardless of the statistics regarding adult males vs adult females.)

 

So....really, I wonder how this all meshes together?

Because adult women are not children no matter how many patriarchal type people want to treat us like children “for our own good”. 

[EmseB]

Just now, Bootsie said:

Who would do the recording?  How would it be stored? If it is confidential, who would be allowed to hear it?  Would both parties have to agree?  You have 1000 professors on a campus having every one-on-one conversations recorded every day?  How long would the records need to be kept?  I just don't see how that would be practical.

Having a third person in the room would not necessarily make me feel better.  If Person A gets to choose who Person C is, it could even be worse for Person B--because if Person A and C are working together or protecting each other, Person A now has a "witness" who protects and lies for Person A.  I have seen that play out in the workplace before.

I feel like this has seriously jumped the shark, but if a witness is involved because things are that serious and the witness is making stuff up to get someone in hot water, maybe a closed door meeting one-on-one isn't the best idea either.

Otherwise, all I'm saying is meet where a door can be propped open or there is a window into the office or there is some official way of documenting what happened. I don't find this to be revolutionary in a metoo culture where women have trouble being believed about being in compromising situation, but I'm not a college professor either. Maybe they don't get in trouble for getting involved with students ever and that's just something that happened at my JC.

Interestingly, I used to be a transcriptionist. All sorts of people, including doctors and psychiatrists and professors, record confidential sessions. I have transcribed them. There are ways to anonymize them and such that probably vary by state and federal law.

 

[EmseB]

11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Because adult women are not children no matter how many patriarchal type people want to treat us like children “for our own good”. 

Good to know that the problem of women being believed about rape and sexual assault when it's her word against his has totally been resolved!

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Okay, so you're saying women don't get sexually assaulted at work at high enough rates for an open door or glass window policy to be in effect? Or if I feel uncomfortable meeting with a coworker in private then I should ignore that feeling and do it anyway? I think there is a huge chasm of difference in any case between being alone in an office with someone with the door closed and no window and being in a restaurant with them. It's interesting you put those two things in the same category. They seem like apples and oranges to me 

What percentage of women would make this a problem in your view? How many women would have to be assaulted for it to be a reasonable standard for me to not want to be alone with someone in a closed door setting?

I'm not being snarky in case it sounds that way. I'm genuinely wondering because I've never heard this kind of advice before.

I put closed door meetings and working lunches in the same category because some people in this thread have explicitly said that the prohibition on a man being "alone" with a woman applied in both of those situations.

I think that having a policy that discriminates based on gender cannot be justified by the very remote possibility that a man who has shown no sign of being a creeper or a threat might suddenly decide to sexually assault a woman in his office just because the the door is closed. 

I also think that the goal posts have shifted quite dramatically in this discussion, from a man should never be alone with a woman — not in an office or even a public restaurant — because it might cause temptation or start an affair or give rise to gossip or make a spouse jealous to women should naturally be uncomfortable in any situation where they are alone with a man, because any man is capable of suddenly committing sexual assault, even in a busy office or university.

[EmseB]

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I put closed door meetings and working lunches in the same category because some people in this thread have explicitly said that the prohibition on a man being "alone" with a woman applied in both of those situations.

I think that having a policy that discriminates based on gender cannot be justified by the very remote possibility that a man who has shown no sign of being a creeper or a threat might suddenly decide to sexually assault a woman in his office just because the the door is closed. 

I also think that the goal posts have shifted quite dramatically in this discussion, from a man should never be alone with a woman — not in an office or even a public restaurant — because it might cause temptation or start an affair or give rise to gossip or make a spouse jealous to women should naturally be uncomfortable in any situation where they are alone with a man, because any man is capable of suddenly committing sexual assault, even in a busy office or university.

They don't show signs until they do and then 10 women say, you too?? No signs of being a creeper, really??? Of course they don't and that is how the Matt Lauers of the world get to have an office door that locks with the push of a button from their desk and no one comes forward for 20 years because they are made to feel silly and also crazy for feeling uncomfortable with a meeting with their boss.

But good to know this is no longer an issue.

I give up, honestly. If sexual assault in the work place is so statistically low so that it is silly to take precautions as a woman then we're in a lot better shape than I thought.

[Corraleno]

 

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

They don't show signs until they do and then 10 women say, you too?? No signs of being a creeper, really??? Of course they don't and that is how the Matt Lauers of the world get to have an office door that locks with the push of a button from their desk and no one comes forward for 20 years because they are made to feel silly and also crazy for feeling uncomfortable with a meeting with their boss.

But good to know this is no longer an issue.

I give up, honestly. If sexual assault in the work place is so statistically low so that it is silly to take precautions as a woman then we're in a lot better shape than I thought.

So now all men are potential Matt Lauers with secret buttons to lock their doors? All men, everywhere, should be treated as potential sexual predators at all times, by all women? 

MOST men are not rapists or sexual predators. In fact, women are FAR more likely to be raped by a spouse or former spouse than a professor or coworker, so "statistically" you're safer if you never get married (or divorced) than you are if you meet with a professor with the door closed or have lunch with a male colleague.

[EmseB]

Also, the goal posts aren't moved. This is all part and parcel of the same basic issue surrounding office and other professional relationships. Should a wife feel comfortable if her husband is spending a huge amount of time alone with another woman? Can the lines of a professional relationship and a personal relationship get blurry in a quickness? Should a woman feel comfortable if her boss wants to meet with her alone repeatedly where no one else can see them? Should a man be transparent and open about his meetings with individuals in the workplace? Is favoritism or appearance therof a problem? Can we just prop a door open or meet in the open? If not, can we take meeting notes and compare or record what is discussed? Is there a power differential that makes this relationship inappropriate? What does this meeting look like to an objective third party? Am I demanding too much of my employees' personal time?

And replace genders and orientations as needed for any of these questions. People are, of course, more than their urges. At the same time, office affairs happen, sexual assault happens, bosses, professors, doctors get in trouble for crossing boundaries, women and men. And it's not exactly rare. We make rules for adults with children because we know adults cross lines that children can't defend themselves from. Adults are not children but they still cross lines with each other and no matter how many Alias episodes you've seen, most women cannot defend themselves from most men and according to some will not be believed when they tell their story, or according to others will lie about being assaulted. Either way, not being in a situation that requires witnesses to prove or disprove a story helps immensely.

If you've never witnessed or been a party to workplace drama or seen some of the stupid and malicious choices people can make, please be thankful, but don't be naive about how not-rare these things are among all genders of all classes of jobs, and all stripes of people. Any rule should be flexible, but I'm not a jerk for feeling uncomfortable about meeting someone alone who could overpower me if they so choose. People we know and even know well can and do commit sexual assault or harassment.

Incidentally, I recommend the book The Gift of Fear. Being uncomfortable with a situation is often the most reasonable indicator of a problem situation.

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

So now all men are potential Matt Lauers with secret buttons to lock their doors? All men, everywhere, should be treated as potential sexual predators at all times, by all women? 

MOST men are not rapists or sexual predators. In fact, women are FAR more likely to be raped by a spouse or former spouse than a professor or coworker, so "statistically" you're safer if you never get married (or divorced) than you are if you meet with a professor with the door closed or have lunch with a male colleague.

Should Matt Lauer have been treated that way before people knew what he was doing? Or, heck, even after? How many women were shamed into going in to meet with him alone using this very line of questioning??

Having an open door or a window into an office is hardly treating men or women as sexual predators.

Notallmen, lol.

Edited July 3, 2020 by EmseB

[Wheres Toto]

10 hours ago, EmseB said:

 

Incidentally, I recommend the book The Gift of Fear. Being uncomfortable with a situation is often the most reasonable indicator of a problem situation.

But many of us are saying that there are situations where there is no hint of impropriety, that we DON'T feel uncomfortable, so we don't want someone else making decisions about when and where we can meet with someone.   If I felt uncomfortable meeting with someone one-on-one, I would take steps to make it so I feel more comfortable.   But that's never happened in over 20 years of working in an office, in a support position for many many men.  

I'm not saying affairs don't happen.  But that's generally a mutual decision and open office doors aren't going to stop that.  If two people are going to screw around, they'll find a way. 

And, as others have said, this has moved on from saying a man and a woman shouldn't eat together in a restaurant alone.  

[Clemsondana]

This is interesting for me to think about in the context of my work, which has always been in an academia/education environment.  For many years, I worked in research labs.  While most people did most of their work during the day, there were people coming and going at all hours due to needing to sign up for a slot with equipment that was in constant use or because there are situations where your culture needs to grow a certain amount of time and you can't fit all of the sampling in during a normal work day.  Off the top of my head I remember the time a male professor came back to help undergrad me learn a new procedure on a culture that would be ready at 10pm, the male grad student who showed me how to use the film developer in the darkroom (in the dark), and the many times that I was in the lab early or late and was thankful when anybody, male or female, was around because the empty building was creepy.  Sometimes male coworkers would walk me to my car and then I would drive them to theirs, or vice versa.  I usually packed food, but sometimes we'd walk to a campus restaurant and get lunch or dinner, and we didn't worry if it was a large group or a pair - it was just about the food.  My husband worked in a similar environment in a different field, and I know that he had similar interactions. 

We lived apart for parts of our engagement and early marriage while we were finishing school, and he travels frequently for work.  I know that he occasionally goes out to dinner female colleagues - I usually know them, but not always, and if a former colleague of mine was in town and we wanted to grab a bite and catch up he wouldn't care.  The other of us would always be welcome to tag along if we wanted to, and we might or might not, depending on food, kid situation, and whether we also wanted to visit with coworker.  

Grad school and my postdoc would have presented another issue for how to deal with this rule - conference travel.  These are a big deal and tended to involve driving 1 1/2 hrs to the airport, a flight, then a shuttle service or car rental to housing, and then the conference.  We also did short drives to meet colleagues at other universities.  Because of the makeup of my labs at the time, it usually ended up being groups of 3, but if it hadn't, skipping the trip would have been detrimental to the student careers, and renting a separate car for 4 days would have needed to be out-of-pocket because no grant is going to pay for 2 cars for 2 people.  

In my teaching as a grad student, I usually taught from 6:30-9:30 at night.  I left when the last student did, and the last student, or, when we taught in pairs, my co-teacher, was often male.  My community college teaching was on the weekend.  Because of the population that I taught, I had office hours immediately before and after class (mostly people who worked, none of us wanted to make a trip to campus on a different day). Other students could come in at any time, but if a student came I was generally alone in the classroom with them.  But, if there were no students, generally the only other person in the building was the male security guard.  

It's not that I was unaware of safety issues - I was never uncomfortable with male colleagues because I knew them, but meeting with students, especially early in the semester when I didn't know them at all..well, I was definitely aware of my surroundings.  But, I do remember my undergrad professsor, who took me with him when he had to make a visit to a campus 1 1/2 hrs away because he thought I should check it out for a possible grad school (it's where I ended up earning my PhD), saying that he was a harassment lawsuit waiting to happen.  In other words he was also aware of the risks of mentoring a female student but he did it anyway.  And, as a final kind-of-funny, my grad school advisor was militant about keeping the door at least cracked, which was fine.  One day, unusually, he had his 2 year old in his office for a few hours while his wife had an appointment.  I popped in to ask a 2-minute question and kid kept making a mad dash for the lab.  I finally pushed the door closed to keep kid in the room.  My advisor got a look of panic, despite the fact that we had worked together for years at that point.  I said 'I just have a quick question and once you can answer it I'll be out of here' - a minute later, we were done.  One one hand, I understand...on the other hand, there was a desk and a rambunctious toddler between us and I was there for less than 2 minutes.  It was probably the most awkward male-female moment I ever had at work, and at the time that I closed the door I wasn't thinking of anything except protecting the kid from running into a lab - my babysitter/mom thinking definitely overrode my 'possible harassment thinking'.  

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by ClemsonDana

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, ClemsonDana said:

We lived apart for parts of our engagement and early marriage while we were finishing school, and he travels frequently for work.

DH and I were doing our postdocs 1000 miles apart. I shared a 2 br apartment with a male room mate. My grandmother could never get over how I was "living with another man" and what my husband would think. Yeah, there was nothing TO think. It was the most normal thing. (The second year, my room mate was another guy, but he had his girlfriend live with us part of the time and it was fantastic since she did not work... she did the dishes etc. It was like having a stay-at-home-housewife, lol)

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, OKBud said:

Not that it matters, but your stats are off-base.

AFAIK, 33% of rapes are perpetuated by current of former partners [no worries: I'm sure all THESE rapists don't have jobs!] while 39% are perpetuated by acquaintances. 

No, I was comparing the statistical likelihood of rape by a current or former spouse specifically to rape by a coworker or professor in their office during normal work hours, not rapes by any acquaintance of any type in any context. That was precisely my point in responding to claims that women should never meet with any man behind closed doors because any man could turn out to be a rapist. By all means avoid being alone with a guy at a frat party where everyone is drinking, avoid being alone with a first date in his apartment, etc. But the risk of being sexually assaulted by a coworker or professor during a normal office meeting, just because the door is closed, is infinitesimally small and is not a rational fear.

[EmseB]

5 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

But many of us are saying that there are situations where there is no hint of impropriety, that we DON'T feel uncomfortable, so we don't want someone else making decisions about when and where we can meet with someone.   If I felt uncomfortable meeting with someone one-on-one, I would take steps to make it so I feel more comfortable.   But that's never happened in over 20 years of working in an office, in a support position for many many men.  

I'm not saying affairs don't happen.  But that's generally a mutual decision and open office doors aren't going to stop that.  If two people are going to screw around, they'll find a way. 

And, as others have said, this has moved on from saying a man and a woman shouldn't eat together in a restaurant alone.  

I think that this discussion is all over the place and if people want to put eating out for pizza and closed-door, no-window meetings in the same category of privacy to either refute or advocate for any position, I don't agree with that.

But to the bolded, if I get a vibe that a guy or gal is a creeper or that a closed-door, no-window meeting would be unsafe for me, no matter how ridiculous some might say I'm being, you're darn right I am going to let my lack of comfort make decisions about when and where I meet with someone. I am going to make that decision for someone else for my own peace of mind and dictate terms of meeting in public or in a room with a window or with a recording device or with a friend or co-worker. And to be honest, I don't care how that impacts someone else's career or my own, really. And I am going to allow anyone and everyone else I hypothetically work with to make that same call based on their own personal standards. The sentence after the one I bolded seems to indicate you would do the same in circumstances you would deem it necessary?

You are truly, truly fortunate to have never worked for or with someone who made you uncomfortable. Sincerely, that is awesome. I have worked for both men and women, albeit a small number, who I definitely didn't want to accept a dinner invitation from or be alone with in an office with no windows. Probably nothing would have happened, but there was a vibe that I didn't want to ignore. I have also worked with people who had improper office romances that affected the morale of the whole office. If you've never been in these sorts of situations, don't you think it's more difficult to evaluate how or if they should be handled? Or are you saying that because it has not happened to you it is rare enough that precautions are not necessary?

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

Perhaps, but a coworker and a professor would fall under "acquaintance" for statistical purposes, and to make your point you said:

...which does not bear out. Unless the stats have really changed a whole lot since the last time I looked. 

As a rule, it's not great to tell other people what qualifies as a rational fear for them to have. This conversation has moved from "are some women too pretty to spend a lot of time with your husband?" to "it's irrational for women to have fear toward men if they're at work." It's pretty bananas. 

Unless every acquaintance included in the 39% statistic raped a coworker or student in their office, then yeah it's accurate to say that a woman is statistically far more likely to be raped by a spouse or ex-spouse than by a coworker or a professor in his office.

I do think it's completely irrational to fear that any time a woman is in an office with a man, closing the door greatly increases her chance of suddenly be raped. I think that's "bananas," and if I personally knew someone with that level of fear, I would suggest they might benefit from therapy to figure out why they feel that way, because it's likely to impact their ability to function in a lot of careers and it just adds a lot of unnecessary anxiety to their life. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Good list, Dreamergal,

I would add on to your list and ideas:

HR departments that don't minimize even "little" harassment like sexist jokes and innuendo, attempts to brush up against a woman etc. but will nip those things in the bud before they create a toxic environment or allow predators to feel safe going even farther to actual assault.

I like that most businesses do have windows looking into offices - so that even if doors are closed for privacy, people are still visible to others.  Also glass windows on places like conference rooms.

Big corporations and universities where I have worked have had security available to walk women to cars when it's dark.

Security cameras in places like elevators and parking garages for protection from all kinds of theft and assault.

Teaching boys and men not to look at women as sexual objects.  (Obviously there is a place for sex but not in interactions in the workplace etc.)  I think that treating women as equals actually makes them safer.