TCB Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: I think yes, we have to be careful to make judgements on intent when some just have different levels of information. I think a lot of people are well meaning, but less informed right now, or have been given misinformation. Pastors don't have a science background, and when even medical experts are scrambling, we are expecting a LOT. That said, leadership is part of the job, and so is doing hard things. I'm afraid that some are simply taking the easier route. I also feel that politics is influencing decisions. To be fair, our area has not been hit hard and it is absolutely true that most people around here have not been personally affected yet. I'm finding it hard to understand though, how they are unable to look around at the bigger picture and use at least some of that in their thinking.The cognitive dissonance that you experience when you hear the things they are saying compared to the bigger picture is very unsettling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said: Our county has opened up for services of up to 10, inclusive of the clergy. Our diocese (Catholic) has all sorts of rules about masks (everyone although the celebrant may remove his to say mass), singing (no), hand sanitizer (for everyone), and altar servers (none), etc . . . DS10 would really really love to go to to church. It's his happy place, and goodness knows this kid deserves a little happiness. But he's super high risk, and because he's in the hospital, he's also high risk for spreading it. He can't wear a mask. We also live with his great-grandfather who is almost 90, and high risk. Our priest is also older and at risk, and has been ministering to sick parishioners, so he hasn't been 100% isolating. We're in an area with a lot of virus still spreading. So, saying all that, do people think there's a way to make mass safe? We've got 7 people in our household, and have 2 other family members in the same parish who we'd love to see from a distance. My thought is that we'd ask for the first mass on a weekday for just the 10 of us (9 family members and 1 priest), and have an adult go in early and wipe down pews that are far back from the altar. DS10 wouldn't touch anything (he'd stay in his wheelchair, and not self propel), everyone else would go straight in to the pew, and then straight out. My FIL is an extraordinary minister, so he could approach the altar, and bring back the host to our pew, BIL and SIL could sit far away from us, and receive from the priest. What am I missing as far as potential problems? I know I need to talk to our priest, but I'd really hate to start a conversation and be told no. I think your plan sounds good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said: Our county has opened up for services of up to 10, inclusive of the clergy. Our diocese (Catholic) has all sorts of rules about masks (everyone although the celebrant may remove his to say mass), singing (no), hand sanitizer (for everyone), and altar servers (none), etc . . . DS10 would really really love to go to to church. It's his happy place, and goodness knows this kid deserves a little happiness. But he's super high risk, and because he's in the hospital, he's also high risk for spreading it. He can't wear a mask. We also live with his great-grandfather who is almost 90, and high risk. Our priest is also older and at risk, and has been ministering to sick parishioners, so he hasn't been 100% isolating. We're in an area with a lot of virus still spreading. So, saying all that, do people think there's a way to make mass safe? We've got 7 people in our household, and have 2 other family members in the same parish who we'd love to see from a distance. My thought is that we'd ask for the first mass on a weekday for just the 10 of us (9 family members and 1 priest), and have an adult go in early and wipe down pews that are far back from the altar. DS10 wouldn't touch anything (he'd stay in his wheelchair, and not self propel), everyone else would go straight in to the pew, and then straight out. My FIL is an extraordinary minister, so he could approach the altar, and bring back the host to our pew, BIL and SIL could sit far away from us, and receive from the priest. What am I missing as far as potential problems? I know I need to talk to our priest, but I'd really hate to start a conversation and be told no. Only thing I'm thinking is airborne, but if there hasn't been anyone in the church for many hours (from sunday evening to monday morning) and there won't be again (until next day's mass) it should be fine. I'd put your son and whoever is with him in a spot in the church not right by the doors, where people will be going in an out, if those doors will be used again soon after you leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said: I think that, given that we're a large parish with many members, they are going to need to run as many services as they can if the group size is 10. W can figure out how to be first, but I can't imagine there won't be more that day. So, the way I envision it, the kids and GFIL, and whichever parent is with them, would come in at the last moment. Since the only other people there would be the priest and other family members, I can guarantee that we'd be last in first out. Are you concerned that people who exited later would be exposed to covid if he has it? I am not disagreeing, just trying to understand your logic. No, sorry. I meant, if he was sitting in the area by the doors for an hour, and then the next family comes in 10 minutes after he left, they could be breathing in any virus he was breathing out during that time. So having him in a less trafficked area, since he can't be masked. Maybe an alcove, unused chapel area to the side, etc. By the time the next mass is ending and people are going out again, should have dispersed, but if those doors are also used for going in, that he is just inside, and he was there a significant portion of time, people coming in right after he left might be exposed. But maybe they are having people come in a different door? But honestly, he's been tested regularly, etc so probably not a real concern? Edited June 12, 2020 by Ktgrok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said: I wish I had a better understanding of the whole aerosol spread thing. Does it hang around in one place? Or get spread around? https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them. Have you read this yet? It seems to do a good job of explaining how the virus spreads around. And it does spread around a room. It has a lot to do with the air systems in the room—see the part about people in the restaurant who got infected if they were under a certain air vent that was linked to someone who was infected. If someone in the room is infected and sneezes without a mask on...that’s super bad news. From the link: But even if that cough or sneeze was not directed at you, some infected droplets--the smallest of small--can hang in the air for a few minutes, filling every corner of a modest sized room with infectious viral particles. All you have to do is enter that room within a few minutes of the cough/sneeze and take a few breaths and you have potentially received enough virus to establish an infection. Also from the article, about indoor spaces in general: Indoor spaces, with limited air exchange or recycled air and lots of people, are concerning from a transmission standpoint. We know that 60 people in a volleyball court-sized room (choir) results in massive infections. Same situation with the restaurant and the call center. Social distancing guidelines don't hold in indoor spaces where you spend a lot of time, as people on the opposite side of the room were infected (I can’t correct the font on the ipad. It tries, but it won’t work. Once I copy and paste something, the font is wonky.) Edited June 12, 2020 by Garga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnwife Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 @CuriousMomof3 I'd call your priest and ask. I know in our diocese, only Sunday Masses are currently public. They wanted to see how that went for parishes before opening up weekday Masses. Also, priests are limited to either 3 or 4 Masses a day (this is all the time, I believe, CV19 or not). So parishes can't just necessarily just add more Masses, because priests are limited in the number they can say. But if your diocese has public weekday Masses, I'd call and see about the attendance sign-up policy. (We currently have to call or email the parish office. If the Mass you want is full, they give you priority for the next weekend.) I wouldn't worry at all about bothering a priest by asking. A priest should want to make Mass available to all, so trying to make that happen for you/yours is par for the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Our large church of 1200 or so will have 4 services, seating roughly 100 each, for the first time tomorrow. Masks are required. No childcare. Short service, 45 mins. Ushers will seat people and release them for leaving. Very spread out seating. All of the service is printed on the bulletins, so no pew Bibles or hymnals in use. Offering is a drop box in the back (or by mail or online). I haven't seen the bulletin, so I don't know about singing. We are conservative Presbyterians wiith a liturgical service and a large neo-gothic cathedral building that can seat our whole congregation. There will still be an order of service emailed home to all members and several services held in Zoom, as has been done throughout the crisis. This has worked well. Much more participatory and interactive than watching a livestream. Though when things are more open and our services return to larger numbers, they will livestream for those who cannot attend or who choose not to. No telling what the timeline for that is. Making it up as we go along. Dh has to go on Sunday bc he is a deacon and they are organizing and ushering. Hopefully, it won't take long to work the bugs out and all deacons won't be required to help every week after this. The rest of us are not going this week or any week in the near future. I'd rather stay home and worship freely than endure a masked service with limited or no singing, no socializing, no Communion etc. We normally have Communion every week and have just one service. We would normally have a baby baptised every couple weeks too. The Session is holding off on Sacraments until CV issues have ebbed and we can truly be together as a church family. Our city is in phase two, but what that permits or limits changes often and is highly inconsistent. City ball fields are not open for baseball and flag football, but restaurants are open to 75% and gyms to 50%. Rules for my city are not exactly the same as for my state. Churches in our state are free to meet as they choose, now that the Governor's Safer at Home order is expired, but all that I have personal knowledge of have been very careful and cautious and are just now beginning to figure out if and how they will regather. Edited June 13, 2020 by ScoutTN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenecho Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 On 5/23/2020 at 10:55 PM, Patty Joanna said: When I was Presbyterian, I always sat in the "deaf" section because I found the signing so beautiful. But there is no way this is an instantly learnable skill--and it was part of the audible congregational singing. Both/and. The signer-lead (sorry, I don't know the right terms) was beatific...it was quite moving. Maybe people could learn to sign a phrase or two, but goodness...signing is a language. I couldn't learn it overnight anymore than I could learn Italian or Urdu overnight. (Not meaning to pick at you, Curious--I just wanted to share my experience as a hearing person in the signing section...) No offense taken. It's not an instant skill and I wouldn't expect that. I was thinking if you had someone in your congregation who knew sign they could teach the signs to a song at the beginning of church, and gradually build to where you had various songs your congregation could sign. It's really no harder to learn the signs to a song than the words...even if you don't know them (I've found individual signs easier to memorize than words in another language because the signs so often LOOK like what they represent). I think you could introduce one new song each week...maybe just teach the main verse initially and ask people to silently pray the other verses while listening to the song and watching it in sign, and then the next week introduce a new verse to the song you sung last week, reviewing the main verse, and maybe add one more song every other week. You could start with simple repetitive songs, such as this one.... In my life lord, be glorified is one example. That song just repeats that phrase, but replaces "life" with "church" and "song "in the following verses. Another slightly longer one that works like that is.... Jesus I Adore You Lay My Life Before You How I love you (Jesus is replaced by Father and Holy Spirit in subsequent verses). These would be easy to teach at the beginning of a service. And many Hymns repeat a lot of the same vocabulary, so as more songs are learned it would be easier for the congregation to learn them more quickly because they would know more of the worlds already. And you wouldn't necessarily have to do all the words...it could be a simplified version with a few motions and it would still help people to participate in the worship without signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenecho Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I just learned that my church (not my current church but the church I went to for over 10 years and have been following services while they were online) is going to start church again outside. I love this...we have a large "back yard" hill for our church and it just seems so much safer than indoor gatherings, and kinda special too (like an Easter sunrise service, but just all the time). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Our church has released its plan for re-opening next Sunday. You have to pre-register, wear a face mask, your name is recorded when you enter. The rest of it, I don't care, but hell if I'm gonna put my name in a database in order to go to church. Nor would it feel like church to me with a face mask. I don't know if they are going to have any singing, but I assume not. They will offer drive-thru communion. I don't plan on participating in that either. We have to go August 1 for Confirmation. Other than that, I plan to watch the weekly livestream until things get closer to what church is to me. (I should add, they say stay home if you're high risk or if you might be sick. To me, the high risk people (mostly the elderly members) are the ones who are most hurt by not having church. They had considered offering a service just for high risk people, but I guess that wasn't a popular enough idea.) Edited June 13, 2020 by SKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenecho Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I've thought that maybe in stead of starting the opening with the full church, that maybe churches could start with small group Bible studies. People could meet together in a place they fell comfortable (even outside if they agree to that...each group could agree on what they want to do). In a small group, social distancing is easier, and it's so much safer than a large group service...and honestly, I generally got more out of the Bible studies anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I have a question about restrooms. We're hoping we'll be able to have more people this coming weekend for services. Our services are about 1.5 hrs long and some people drive a good 30-45 mins one way to get to church. It is hard to tell them not to use the bathroom. But, how should we proceed. I'm thinking: Having some kind of "occupied" sign to hang out when someone is using it. Asking them to wipe down all hard services they touch with their hands - sink, door, etc. Does that sound like enough? Too much? I would love some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 This is from a UMC congregation near me. I'm very impressed that they included a bunch of links to where they got their info from, that they used to craft a plan. No congregational singing, which is the ONLY church near me (of any denomination) that I've seen say that. This congregation is located in a bit of a "hipster" area, so pretty liberal.http://cpumc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/CPUMC-Reopen-Plan.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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