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What will church look like?


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Okay, so I am hearing from you all that choir singing is an absolute no.  I take this to mean that congregations singing during church are a no for the same reason?  I am wondering about corporate prayer, when we all say the Lord's Prayer, for instance.  Is that a no for similar reasons?  What will church look like?  Just one person in the front speaking?  I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.  I am sensing that online church will go on much longer than I had thought.  Can one person sing up front into a microphone or would that be bad?

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It's a matter of how far droplets travel in different situations.  Singers use their breath to propel their sound and thus droplets get dispersed farther than normal speaking.  If someone can talk or sing with a mask on, that will limit the amount of droplets that get dispersed.  So corporate prayer with people spaced and/or masked shouldn't be any more of a problem than normal talking.  A person can sing up front into a microphone but it's probably best if that microphone isn't shared.  It might work if they put up a plexiglass shield of some kind for musicians (just brainstorming here). 

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Unfortunately, our church still has lots of singing & a small choir (above & behind worshippers so their respiratory droplets fall onto the worshipers). Sigh.

So, we are still streaming from home until safer conditions are put into place.

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I have such anxiety about this.  We are in NJ, a lovely COVID epicenter.  Our church has over 200 people in one service on a Sunday.  I am an ASL interpreter for our Deaf members.  Since the quarantine, I've been making interpreted videos for them of the livestreamed service.  Right now there are no dates of when restrictions will be lifted but I do think that our church will resume services as soon as it is legal.  I feel like I will need to tell our Deaf members that I cannot go back for some time and I don't know when I will feel like it is safe.  I can't wear a mask to interpret because so much of the language is displayed on the face.  (I don't think the cloth masks with a clear panel will work well for interpreting for many reasons.  It's too long to stand up there doing something exhausting with restricted air circulation and I think they will fog up.  I could potentially wear a face shield, but I'm not sure how much that would actually protect me.)  BTW, DD has PANS and the recent stories of children developing an inflammatory condition have me completely freaked out.  I'm kind of just rambling here but this is something I've been stressing about daily.  

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I don’t know what my particular church will do.  There are 2 services with about 300-400 people in each service.  The rows are very close together. In order to space people out, they’d have to have 4 or 5 services a day, if everyone showed up.  Of course, not everyone will show up because lots of people will prefer to stay home and watch online.

From articles I’ve read, just sitting in a room breathing in silence for about an hour will contaminate a portion of the room. Speak, and more of the room is contaminated. Sing or cough and it gets bad. Sneeze and the entire room is filled with virus particles. The longer you’re there and the more breathing, talking, singing, coughing, and sneezing going on, the more virus particles there are.

In a lot of areas in the US there are precious few cases. The goal of shutting down wasn’t to stop the spread, but to slow it. So, perhaps places with very few cases are perfectly fine opening up with a few measures in place. I think some areas will feel they are safe and will still sing and that would make me very nervous, even if there are few cases. In areas with few cases, people probably aren’t going to take the distancing/masking measures very seriously and they’ll probably just go in and have church as usual and sing and talk to each other closely and hug each other. 

For areas with more cases and in churches that take things more seriously, they’ll probably have church without singing, wearing masks, and being spaced out over 6 feet. But I’m not sure how to handle people wanting to chit chat and greet each other in the lobby.  Does everyone file in silently and be shown to a seat and then file back out, escorted, and go home?  That feels so very sterile.  

Ok...now that I’ve typed this and thought it out, going to church sounds very grim if safety measures are in place.  

Edited by Garga
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Our church's plan is to have our first service June 14th. We'll have two services that you register for, no childcare or children's programs, and no small groups meeting. The sanctuary and bathrooms will be cleaned between the services.  I don't believe the choir will be singing, and I'm not sure about worship music. We are a church of around 1000 and our sanctuary probably seats 1300 or more. I have not heard the maximum number they are accepting for each service. The services will be streamed live online for those not comfortable coming. 

 

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We normally go to an evening service with maybe 20 people, but music is a huge part of it.  I feel comfortable with the size but not so much with the public singing at this juncture.  In many ways, online services feel more communal than a sterile spoken service do.  (Especially ones via Zoom versus YouTube or Facebook Live which are much more spectator.)  I've really enjoyed being able to worship with friends who live around the country, actually.  I could definitely see maybe continuing to worship online and also try to go to a smaller service periodically for sacraments.  

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Perhaps string, keyboard, and percussion instruments for most music. Our choir area is well-distanced from the rest of the sanctuary, so about 3 people could sing safely in addition to 3 to preach or lead prayer.

I think appropriate social distancing would be about 25% of capacity, masked; usual attendance was probably 70-80% of capacity.

Unfortunately, risk increases with age, but technology use does not; I would hope someone is helping folks over ~80 get online to view/hear services. For many, reopening (especially if it's based on economics or politics rather than their age group's risk) is not going to be a reasonable indicator that attendance is safe.

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@Patty Joanna, I think the candle-guttering test is interesting. I’m sure, for droplet propulsion, there is singing that’s going to expel quite a lot and singing that would expel less. For myself, personally, I feel like it would/will give me so much anxiety when I notice a person near me not being mindful of it, though. I already find, in talking about COVID with people, a lot of people don’t even know anything about the relative risk of different activities. They have “6 feet” burned into their brain but they don’t seem to know that different activities make 6 ft. insufficient.

As an aside, I haven’t seen anyone talk about laughter. I would think laughter must be comparable to singing, especially as some people laugh exuberantly while others have quiet and reserved laughs. I was thinking about trying to meet with my bunco group on my patio, with distancing in place, but I see a lot of hurdles and laughter is one of them. 

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I haven't heard anything from our church about opening it's doors.  The website still says they will broadcast services until further notice.

But I really wonder if children's church and nurseries will open back up any time soon, and we won't go until it does.  

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Our church will continue livestreams for those who don't want to come in person after opening.  I assume that will help with social distancing for those who do attend in person.

Personally I don't think I want to come to church if there isn't singing, nor do I want to wear a mask for an hour plus.  So I will probably just keep livestreaming until things are much closer to normal.

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I am hoping churches keep live streaming. Part of that is that I am really enjoying being able to attend services with people I don't live near. I set up a watch party for one last Sunday because my mom had been struggling to get in via the church's website, and 5 FB friends joined me. It was nice. And online, I can sing along and feel safe doing it. The idea of going to church, but needing to stay far away from people and not singing just seems wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Quill said:

As an aside, I haven’t seen anyone talk about laughter. I would think laughter must be comparable to singing, especially as some people laugh exuberantly while others have quiet and reserved laughs. I was thinking about trying to meet with my bunco group on my patio, with distancing in place, but I see a lot of hurdles and laughter is one of them. 

Oh goodness. Laughter. Hadn’t thought of that one.

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14 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I just remind myself that catching it is actually the goal for most of the population, given the current treatment prognosis, except the continuing-to-shelter higher risk families.  I feel like most people think they won’t get it, but statistically they’re much more likely to have a mild case than not catch it at all or get severely, deathly ill.

That made me feel better about sending my other family off to church.  Because if we didn’t already have it (we need an antibody test) we probably will, and will very likely be okay. Even if we catch it from church friends.

(I repeat this to myself as needed whenever I start getting overly worried).

Yes, I do think that unless a vaccine is found quickly (which likely will not happen), then this is the goal, to allow the virus to slowly make its way through society as safely as possible, without overloading the medical system and to prevent society from collapsing due to everyone being sick at the same time.  (And of course, to protect the most vulnerable for as long as possible.)

Our city isn't yet at a point where we can open up a lot of things -- our numbers are still rising and our hospitals are continuing to fill up. Otherwise, I sometimes think I'd rather just get it and get it over with!  

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My church has been live streaming this whole time, but now they want people to start hosting small "watch parties" in their homes. Technically, the state allows groups up to 10...but I'm still uncomfortable with that. I guess they figure the small group in each house will be the same week after week, and this is a way to foster community until we can all meet together. But idk...as an introvert, I'm also really uncomfortable with "churching" in someone else's house. 

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42 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I just remind myself that catching it is actually the goal for most of the population, given the current treatment prognosis, except the continuing-to-shelter higher risk families.  I feel like most people think they won’t get it, but statistically they’re much more likely to have a mild case than not catch it at all or get severely, deathly ill.

That made me feel better about sending my other family off to church.  Because if we didn’t already have it (we need an antibody test) we probably will, and will very likely be okay. Even if we catch it from church friends.

(I repeat this to myself as needed whenever I start getting overly worried).

THIS....so much THIS

I don't want to have our society afraid to hug grandkids, laugh with friends, sing at church, or shop at a local mom and pop store 

This though goes against those I see that want shut down until we get a vaccine or cure.

That said, I want to be respectful and careful with those who need to be more careful or have underlying issues or concerns.

This goes back to the thread I started a bit back about whether or goal was to flatten the curve of eliminate covid.....vastly different scenarios.

And I know you have health issues and have kids at higher risk as well.

 

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2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I haven't heard anything from our church about opening it's doors.  The website still says they will broadcast services until further notice.

But I really wonder if children's church and nurseries will open back up any time soon, and we won't go until it does.  

Our church is opening at the end of the month -- but nothing for children. Even grow groups are going to continue online and they are adjusting the times so people can attend grow group online then drive to church for worship if they want.  We, too, have decided to stay home until there are children's groups on campus even though our kids are older and go to worship with us.

 

(They are going to continue to livestream services as well -- and it sounds like that may be a permanent change. One reason to wait is they are currently using all the electronic equipment to livestream. they are purchasing more equipment to be able to both livestream and have in person services at the same time.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Our church is opening at the end of the month -- but nothing for children. Even grow groups are going to continue online and they are adjusting the times so people can attend grow group online then drive to church for worship if they want.  We, too, have decided to stay home until there are children's groups on campus even though our kids are older and go to worship with us.

 

(They are going to continue to livestream services as well -- and it sounds like that may be a permanent change. One reason to wait is they are currently using all the electronic equipment to livestream. they are purchasing more equipment to be able to both livestream and have in person services at the same time.

 

 

 

Our church has always live streamed.  It is only 13 years old and we started by streaming to the local prisons.  Now it is all available online always, which is nice.

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My church is large - think cathedral  - and will not resume worship services for several months. No word yet on details of what it will look like, but once corporate worship resumes, they will livestream until CV-19 is no longer a major threat.

Right now we are worshipping in Zoom in smaller groups, using a liturgy the pastor sends home, with a recorded sermon. This allows for personal interaction that a livestream doesn't. 

We have two elders who are infectious disease docs at a teaching hospital. Our church is taking precautions very seriously and the staff has yet to resume working in the building as a whole. Though individual people have been in to do work that can only be done there.

My city is in the first week of phase one (of four) and the mayor has made it clear that he will not hesitate to hold fast or back up if necessary. 

 

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21 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

 BTW, DD has PANS and the recent stories of children developing an inflammatory condition have me completely freaked out.  I'm kind of just rambling here but this is something I've been stressing about daily.  

Yes, as the parent of a kid with PANDAS/PANS this is a huge concern. We know he gets brain inflammation from minor illness, and is already dealing with a flare. (that high dose antibiotics helped, but low dose ones are not, but no one wants to do high dose longer, so we are splitting the difference...picking up more today). 

Also, he has Celiac and it seems about 1/3 of people with celiac have hyposplenosis and are immune compromised. They don't know WHICH 1/3 though. So no way to know if he is in that category. 

4 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I just remind myself that catching it is actually the goal for most of the population, given the current treatment prognosis, except the continuing-to-shelter higher risk families.  I feel like most people think they won’t get it, but statistically they’re much more likely to have a mild case than not catch it at all or get severely, deathly ill.

That made me feel better about sending my other family off to church.  Because if we didn’t already have it (we need an antibody test) we probably will, and will very likely be okay. Even if we catch it from church friends.

(I repeat this to myself as needed whenever I start getting overly worried).

I'm going to be frank - much of the population does NOT have the goal of catching this. I sure don't. I don't for my mom with COPD and mising a lobe of her lung, or my husband who still doesn't have his blood pressure under control and has a family history of early cardiac arrest and vascular issues, or my kid who has two autoimmune diseases, or my other kid who may or may not have inherited his father's fatal kidney disease or the cardiomyopathy that his father died of and his father's sister required a heart transplant for, or my dad who has heart issues, or my sister and niece with asthma, or my best friend with asthma, or her kid with a specific immune deficiency that means he can't fight off respiratory illness or my other friend's kid who is immune compromised due to medication for ulcerative colitis, or you and your child.

And it isn't just suddenly dying we are worried about, but spending weeks in the hospital, the cost of that, the potential PTSD from that, the potentially permanent damage it could do to my one son's brain or the other's kidneys or heart, the new information that it may cause infertility in some men, etc etc. I'm the least likely to have serious illness, and so fine, if I get it and am sick for a month or so we'd manage somehow...except then of course my husband with uncontrolled blood pressure and my sons would also be exposed. So yeah, catching it is not my goal, and I sure hope no one else has as their goal for me and my family to catch it. 

 

3 hours ago, Ottakee said:

THIS....so much THIS

I don't want to have our society afraid to hug grandkids, laugh with friends, sing at church, or shop at a local mom and pop store 

This though goes against those I see that want shut down until we get a vaccine or cure.

That said, I want to be respectful and careful with those who need to be more careful or have underlying issues or concerns.

This goes back to the thread I started a bit back about whether or goal was to flatten the curve of eliminate covid.....vastly different scenarios.

And I know you have health issues and have kids at higher risk as well.

 

I get it. i do. I want to see my mom. I want my kids to see her. But that is less and less possible if we and others are singing at church and such, you know? Those raise my risk of spreading it to her, so the less likely I am to visit her. So it isn't that we don't both want to visit etc...just different perspectives on what makes that likely. 

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If covid was like measles, and infection was likely to convey lifetime immunity, then I could definitely see the argument for getting it and getting over it.  I mean, I'm pretty sure that would not be my goal for myself or my family, but I could certainly understand the logic.

But, the evidence seems to be that IF infection produces antibodies (and it is not at all certain that it does for many people), they provide protection for between a couple months and probably a year.  This is based on what we know about other coronaviruses, including SARS.  

Risking death, hospitalization, miserable illness, and possible lifetime health consequences to provide extremely short term immunity does NOT seem worth it to me.  I don't understand why people would be so anxious to spread it for such a Faustian bargain.  

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38 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

We all know that a few Americans are stating that's its their goal to never catch it. You are going to lock your family up for possibly years and put other people at risk in order for your family to do so. (I get that you and your ilk think that you're putting those people at a lower risk, but it doesn't track.)

Most Americans (and people worldwide) do not have that "privilege" or the want to put others at risk in order to protect their families so will admit that we will all get it at some point. How a thread about how churches reopening has to turn into a tirade about this yet again is astounding. There really is no point in trying to have any discourse here anymore. 

Someone specifically said that the goal is for most people to catch it. That is how the conversation got onto that. As for there being no point in discourse, and labeling other people's serious concerns as a tirade certainly doesn't help.

And no, I don't agree that me going out shopping more often vs curbside pickup, or taking more of my family with me, or going to church or out to eat, etc won't put grocery workers less at risk. And me catching it doesn't make them less at risk. And me or my family being in the hospital taking up ICU beds doesn't make them less at risk. If you have a reason that doesn't track, please explain it to me -  another thread is fine to avoid continuing to hijack this one. Which I do apologize for...I sometimes leave the laptop to do other stuff and come back midthread and forget what the original topic was. 

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5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I just remind myself that catching it is actually the goal for most of the population, given the current treatment prognosis, except the continuing-to-shelter higher risk families.  I feel like most people think they won’t get it, but statistically they’re much more likely to have a mild case than not catch it at all or get severely, deathly ill.

That made me feel better about sending my other family off to church.  Because if we didn’t already have it (we need an antibody test) we probably will, and will very likely be okay. Even if we catch it from church friends.

(I repeat this to myself as needed whenever I start getting overly worried).

I don't know anyone who has a goal of catching it. Many of our family members, friends, and clients are medical professionals and they are all trying very hard not to catch it, and advising others to do the same. 

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9 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You misunderstand, I meant as a public health goal.  

There is no possible way for me to lock enough members of my family down hard enough and long enough to avoid this short of actual N100 respirators. Avoiding church that long, or therapy, outpatient procedures, piano, sporting activities, you name it, it’s not happening for most of us.  I assume we WILL catch it if we haven’t already, and thus respond accordingly.  Being in a bubble for a year or two isn’t workable or worth it.  

I actually think you are referring to more personal decisions, not public health. In the sense that your family has come to that conclusion, based on your family situation. Other families have reached different conclusions, based on their situations. None of the higher risk people I know have accepted they will catch it, and none are making exactlyt he same choices as another, as their situations and risk factors and needed activities are all different. 

Many ARE saying they won't for instance, go to church, sporting activities, etc for the next year or so. Your family is not saying that. That is fine. But what starts to make me very uncomfortable is when one higher risk person seems to be saying that in general, all people will respond they way they are, or reach the same conclusions. 

So yeah, a lot of at risk people are trying very hard to avoid getting this, and a lot of medium risk people are as well, to avoid being vectors to spread it to the higher risk people, and absolutely do not have everyone getting it as a goal. And it grates a bit when people keep saying that "everyone getting it" is the goal, when that is not the case for so many. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't know what Orthodox liturgies will look like. Chanting/singing can't be removed from our liturgies. Then there is the issue of how Communion will be distributed. For those not in the know, the standard method in the Orthodox Church is to commune everyone from the same chalice using a spoon. I read that some churches are dipping the spoon in alcohol between each person. 

Our former parish is about to start public liturgies again. Our new parish is still streaming everything. 

Yeah, I have a friend who is Orthodox, and her parish is starting services, but with only allowing a handful of people to attend, on a rotating basis.  They're allowing families to come one at a time after the service, which is live streamed, for communion.  

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I am hoping that church will start to look more like true worship - ie. putting an emphasis on how we are actually relating to God over the rituals and traditions that each denomination/ group has for their church.  Not saying that those traditions can't be beautiful or valuable but what is in the heart is more important.  And that can't be hurt by Stay at Home orders etc.  It can, however, be harmed by bitterness and other sins. 

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I am super sad about the singing problem.  I don't know when our doors wlll open back up, but now with this information about the singing I doubt seriously we will be singing even when we open up.  We are doing zoom, which includes our music/singing but everyone is muted to sing so when it is you and your dh and dss19 it just isn't the same as signing with your entire congregation.  

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It will be a long time before we are allowed to open church.  Unless we do the drive in thing which I don't think we will unless they can do communion somehow.  When we do start it will be a family in a row alone staggered.  Hand washing or sanitizer as you enter. Masks for everyone over 2.    We only use a small worship band.  I could see the lead singer being put in the drum box since we don't have a drummer right now.

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It is my explicit goal to never catch COVID. I don’t see what’s so preposterous about that. If, in spite of my care and caution, I get it anyway, then fine; I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. But I do not intend to catch it ever and that is the outcome I prefer.

I have never been in a significant car accident, either. My goal is to never be in one. I recognize it might not turn out that way, and that I can’t help someone else’s negligence if I’m in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, for the factors within my control - don’t drive sleepy or having drank alcohol, wear a safety belt, remain alert, drive defensively, drive the correct speed for conditions, etc. - I’m going to do what I can to make it unlikely I will get into a serious car accident. 

Same with COVID. I’m doing what I can. 

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27 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

We are all doing what we can.  I don’t know how exactly that got missed here, because even people like me who are positive it’s going to be widespread enough that avoiding it is impossible are still risk mitigating for severity and amount of exposure.  The difference is whether I think I’m cautious enough and controlling enough to actually achieve my goal.  I don’t, because I live in a family unit with exposures I cannot control for years on end without major trade offs.  
 

It’s like you people are just hearing what you want from these posts and going to the extreme of that.  No need to erect straw men in my honor, thanks. I just spent two hours masked and distanced in a consult and then proceeded to sterilize everything I could.  Thinking it’s an eventuality versus risk mitigation are not mutually exclusive.  But I do think the narrative of ‘not catching it’ is actually the wrong goal on a meta level even if it makes sense on a personal level.

I want to be clear I'm not picking on what you and your family are doing - I totally get that you are are doing what you can in the circumstances life has you in. I do. 

I am just picking on, for lack of a better term, the idea that the goal is for everyone to get it. That is something that I think intelligent, caring people can and do disagree on. (which, actually, fits in well with the topic of church....in the sense that religious doctrine/theology has lots of areas where well meaning and intelligent people often disagree)

There are those in public health/medicine who do not think everyone getting is the goal, or at least are not willing to make that call until we know more about long term effects. There are those in public health/medicine who do think everyone getting it is the goal. And families on both sides. 

Just trying to make clear (badly) that those who think it is the goal need to be mindful that many others do not share that goal. 

Really, I think it is more theoretical/semantics anyway....like you said, you are taking precautions, it is just which precautions are reasonable for your family may be different than for another family. For lots of reasons, both logistical and mental health related, age of children, number of family members, where they work, what care they need, and the limited amount of time and energy everyone has. I think everyone is making those decisions, but it can look different. Saying you are being cavelier would be wrong. Saying I am living in a bubble, also wrong. Just different risk/benefit analysis given differing circumstances, needs, personalities, experiences, etc. 

Heck, Quill and I both flat out put our perspective as "don't want it!" but even we have differing outlooks on what is and isn't risky. And heck, even in my own family it changes daily. DS just walked in and said he starts his new job, finally, next week. I'm thrilled for him. I'm happy to hopefully soon have an employee discount for the family pets again too. But it will mean increased exposure for him, who has unknown risk factors at this point, short of them figuring out the genetics (his father died before seeing the geneticist and his aunt doesn't think it is necessary..she's happy to believe it is total coincidence that the only two children in that family BOTH ended up with sudden onset cardiomyopathy - one dying before transplant, one getting a transplant). And increased risk for the rest of us. We will have to work out what that looks like. But I'm still going to try like heck to not get it - and protect the others as best I can. 

 

Edited by Ktgrok
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Our church/diocese has announced no plans for opening up yet. However, we talked to someone we are close to, and her archdiocese has plans. Here they are. The only thing I don't like at a glance is "the use of familiar hymns is encouraged to limit any need for a worship aid." While I don't like the thought of no singing during Mass, I think that's they way to go currently. Especially since many Catholic churches have choir lofts, like ours. The thought of attending Mass with a choir in the loft, knowing what we know about how far droplets can spread from that and COVID19, might be a hard no for me, even if the bishop lifts our dispensation from attending Sunday Mass.

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2 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

We all know that a few Americans are stating that's its their goal to never catch it. You are going to lock your family up for possibly years and put other people at risk in order for your family to do so. (I get that you and your ilk think that you're putting those people at a lower risk, but it doesn't track.)

Most Americans (and people worldwide) do not have that "privilege" or the want to put others at risk in order to protect their families so will admit that we will all get it at some point. How a thread about how churches reopening has to turn into a tirade about this yet again is astounding. There really is no point in trying to have any discourse here anymore. 

Our aim is for it to not circulate in the general population.  Our churches are now allowed 10.  This means the musicians and those holding the service can be in the same building when they livestream but not much else.  We have discovered we aren't good at doing things on line.

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My church runs 3 services so I think generally at least 5k on average. We are continuing with live stream. The tentaive plans looks like no classes for children or students and attendance for at risk and elderly will be discouraged. And attendence would have to be online reigstration until capacity is reached. Masks for everyone. COngregational singing is doubtful at this point but might happen if there is masking. Worship band will likely continue. Live streaming everything will conitnue. We are pretty good at live streaming and putting out a lot of online content including small groups and children's and youth programming.

 

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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

We are all doing what we can.  I don’t know how exactly that got missed here, because even people like me who are positive it’s going to be widespread enough that avoiding it is impossible are still risk mitigating for severity and amount of exposure.  The difference is whether I think I’m cautious enough and controlling enough to actually achieve my goal.  I don’t, because I live in a family unit with exposures I cannot control for years on end without major trade offs.  
 

It’s like you people are just hearing what you want from these posts and going to the extreme of that.  No need to erect straw men in my honor, thanks. I just spent two hours masked and distanced in a consult and then proceeded to sterilize everything I could.  Thinking it’s an eventuality versus risk mitigation are not mutually exclusive.  But I do think the narrative of ‘not catching it’ is actually the wrong goal on a meta level even if it makes sense on a personal level.

I wasn’t going after you by saying my goal is to never get it. 

I just watched my governor brief us that he is relaxing/lifting several restrictions beginning Friday. It caused me to have an unexpected emotion - happiness. I did not expect to have that feeling because I am personally committed to remaining predominantly home for the indefinite future, and I am not much concerned about when I will be able to get my hair done. But still, knowing that I can go get my hair done now, or, I don’t know, can go to the craft store made me happy. I could even go adopt a pet now. 

I have no doubt you and others are doing what makes sense to you. Peace. 

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My church is opening June 9th with a lot of proviso's.  Masks for all, social distancing, no classes or small groups, no singing at all.  We normally have two services but all the people who attend each service normally wouldn't be able to come.  I had a trustee call me today as they are doing a survey of approximately what percentage of people expect to attend.  We were already doing livestreaming before.  Before she called, I told my dh that I expect us to camp more this summer since church is online and we can see it when we are camping or when we get back.

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38 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

I just watched my governor brief us that he is relaxing/lifting several restrictions beginning Friday. It caused me to have an unexpected emotion - happiness. I did not expect to have that feeling because I am personally committed to remaining predominantly home for the indefinite future, and I am not much concerned about when I will be able to get my hair done. But still, knowing that I can go get my hair done now, or, I don’t know, can go to the craft store made me happy. I could even go adopt a pet now. 

 

Yes!  Not to derail my own thread, but YES!  I am still staying home 98 percent of the time, but knowing that I CAN go somewhere just perks up my mood.  Our numbers have actually started to go up a little here because of a meat plant hotspot, so we just decided that dh (our grocery shopper) should start ordering groceries online and doing curbside pickup rather than go to the store.  But, like today was my dd's last final exam, so we went to Whataburger Drive Thru for lunch and ate in the car.  Then we were going to go, masked, to Plato's Closet, but decided against it and went to the bayfront park instead and sat in the car and stared at the water and the birds.  But it was nice knowing that we could go somewhere, even if we didn't.  And... the YWCA is opening Monday.  Yay!  We're going to try a couple water classes and see how things go.  Masked, even in Aqua Zumba.  Should be interesting.

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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I want to be clear I'm not picking on what you and your family are doing - I totally get that you are are doing what you can in the circumstances life has you in. I do. 

I am just picking on, for lack of a better term, the idea that the goal is for everyone to get it. That is something that I think intelligent, caring people can and do disagree on. (which, actually, fits in well with the topic of church....in the sense that religious doctrine/theology has lots of areas where well meaning and intelligent people often disagree)

There are those in public health/medicine who do not think everyone getting is the goal, or at least are not willing to make that call until we know more about long term effects. There are those in public health/medicine who do think everyone getting it is the goal. And families on both sides. 

Just trying to make clear (badly) that those who think it is the goal need to be mindful that many others do not share that goal. 

Really, I think it is more theoretical/semantics anyway....like you said, you are taking precautions, it is just which precautions are reasonable for your family may be different than for another family. For lots of reasons, both logistical and mental health related, age of children, number of family members, where they work, what care they need, and the limited amount of time and energy everyone has. I think everyone is making those decisions, but it can look different. Saying you are being cavelier would be wrong. Saying I am living in a bubble, also wrong. Just different risk/benefit analysis given differing circumstances, needs, personalities, experiences, etc. 

Heck, Quill and I both flat out put our perspective as "don't want it!" but even we have differing outlooks on what is and isn't risky. And heck, even in my own family it changes daily. DS just walked in and said he starts his new job, finally, next week. I'm thrilled for him. I'm happy to hopefully soon have an employee discount for the family pets again too. But it will mean increased exposure for him, who has unknown risk factors at this point, short of them figuring out the genetics (his father died before seeing the geneticist and his aunt doesn't think it is necessary..she's happy to believe it is total coincidence that the only two children in that family BOTH ended up with sudden onset cardiomyopathy - one dying before transplant, one getting a transplant). And increased risk for the rest of us. We will have to work out what that looks like. But I'm still going to try like heck to not get it - and protect the others as best I can. 

 

I think a better way of putting it (at least my understanding) is that it's the assumption that a majority of people will get it eventually.  Not that it's the actual GOAL that everyone get it.  But an assumption that we'll not have a vaccine soon enough, nor the ability to keep everyone under a strict lock-down indefinitely, to stop it in its tracks.  So the goal is to at least help guide it as safely as possible as it makes its way throughout the community.  That's what flattening the curve means, doesn't it?  My own family has been in a pretty strict lock-down, as have most people around here as far as I can tell, and we'll be continuing it for awhile still...  (Not much is really open in our city yet anyway.  Certainly no churches or any place that gathers crowds.  I don't see that happening for a long time!)  We haven't seen our two daughters for two months and they both live about two miles away.  But I still anticipate that I'll get it eventually, since it's continuing to spread throughout our city and I'm the designated grocery shopper and essential errand runner.  And once I get it, my dh will get it. 

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10 hours ago, whitehawk said:

I've found the former markedly easier than the latter. 😬

Doctor appointment #5 (online) in a few minutes.

Waiting for the vaccine is a better bet for many, many people.

Oh gosh, I'm sure you're right.  That sounds miserable.  I hope you feel better soon!

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Heard yesterday that sometime in June, if our city has progressed to the next phase, we could begin to meet in smaller groups for worship. No details on that yet, but the mayor's phase 2 specifies 50 or fewer. Zoom will still be an option. 

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7 hours ago, kand said:

My understanding is the hope is that with testing and contact tracing in place (which it totally isn’t most places in the US), outbreaks will be contained and limited until we have treatment or vaccine, rather than these widespread outbreaks we’ve had so far. 

Oh yes, absolutely, hopefully the large outbreaks (surges?) will be contained.  I think that's key to opening things up again.  

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Getting back to the original question though...  It's really, really difficult for me to see how churches will gather in the unforeseeable future.  Our church isn't one that believes it's our national right to meet and therefore we will no matter what, nor is it one that thinks our need to commune together is necessary or should take priority over the greater good of society, or that our salvation depends on our meeting.   A giant focus of our church actually is on society, not on the church community.   It focuses on the disabled, the homeless, low income earners, etc...   I honestly do not see it meeting in person for months, honestly, not anytime this year even.   I think it only will meet "semi" normally when there is a vaccine.  Even then, now that people are more aware of germs in general, I think it will be very careful about how it meets.  There will probably be new guidelines in place for the long-term, at last until the world around us feels more stable.

But, our church still feels close.  Even closer, oddly.  We have our on-line sermons (those were already in place, but now they stream live).  We also have multiple small groups that meet weekly on Zoom.  This is a new thing for our church (Zoom groups), and I think even more people are involved in small groups, now,  than what was happening in person.  And because our pastor is an internationally known author and theologian, our Zoom participants are from all over the world.  My small group alone consists of someone from my state, from Texas, from North Carolina, from England, and from India!   Our communion celebration on Easter Sunday during its online service was one of the most holy events I've participated in.  My dh and I administered (not sure what the correct verb is for that!) communion to each other.  I'll never forget that.

I think depending on where you live, though, this will play out differently.  Ours is an inner-city church, in an area where there are lots of Covid cases.  It will probably be very different if you live in a smaller community with few Covid cases.

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Our county is partially reopening, but the next one over is not. So my church in the next one over is actually still shut down. Frankly I don't know how they can reasonably do that. It's a tiny building with poor circulation. They decided to nothing as a congregation during this time, which has been really hard for me emotionally. A few of meet online on Sunday for an hour, but that's it.  

Meanwhile local church is issuing tickets and assigning seats. They have a large building with high ceilings and good air circulation. They are not doing congregational singing but plan to have the worship team. They recommend but don't require masks That might be OK, but I want too see how that all goes. I plan to keep watching their services.

Another church in the county that is shut down is offering drive-up services which I find intriguing. This is the first Sunday they are doing that in a big way, so I want to see how it goes. I might do that. 

What an interesting time for the church! 

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Our state is still under 10 and fewer orders and our Bishop just allowed us to begin having liturgy again.  What we did  last weekend was the "choir" of 6 people all stood far apart, and stood  in the pews facing the same direction - rather than crowded around and toward each other.  They sang this way and were a good distance from our priest.    We also have a choir loft in the back of the church.  It's got a Plexiglas banister and no one is singing over the banister.    I think the loft will be utilized once we're allowed more than 10.  We have 9-10 stands that people crowd around..  We'll probably move stands around to make for fewer people but also safer for projecting. Obviously, we won't be crowding around the stand for a while either.  The issue with that is that we usually sing *toward* the choir director and there is no room for that person to back away... they are already at the edge of the loft.   While I loved @Patty Joanna 's little test, I don't think it will fly (no pun intended) with church leaders.  But ,she's right.  We're not fighting against an organ when we sing.  

For the Eucharist, several options have been bantered around.  One is to have individual cups.. another is to use spoons (we receive off a spoon) and then dipping it into grain alcohol for disinfectant.  We'd have more than one spoon to give each one time to disinfect.  Another is bamboo spoons - one for each individual - and they would be burned after service.  

There are many people who will choose to stay home because of their own circumstances.  Fortunately, we already had streaming started before all this happened.  Our church can hold almost 200 people.   We only do one liturgy per week.  I know it was once mentioned of moving to 2x per week. Maybe one mid-week and another on Sundays.  

I'm assuming Sunday school will not resume for a long time - unless it's outdoors.  Our S.S. rooms are pretty small.  

We also have an annual ethnic food bazaar in fall.   It takes many weeks of preparation in the late summer and early fall.  I suspect it will be cancelled this year.  

As for zoom meetings.  We have many people who cannot participate for logistical reasons.  I also know of several people who flat-out refused.  They are in virtual meetings all week with work and the thought of another one is too much.  One friend told me in an email exchange that she hates it completely.   I'm beginning to dislike them quite a bit too.  The problem is that you're in a "room" with people but you cannot break off into small groups to chat with your friends.  You have to sit an listen to one person at a time.  That was fine for the first few weeks, but "how was your week, Susan?"  is getting tedious.  Then we have those who have started to pontificate.  Ugh.  I don't care if I agree or not, I know those kind of conversations cause divisions.   We are going to have a parish business meeting this week on Zoom.  I'm the council secretary so I have to attend and take notes.  After that I think I'll be done with zoom church fellowship for a while.  There's several of us who feel this way. 

 

 

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I'm really worried about our church's opening day tomorrow (which we are NOT going to attend). Today, we went to an outdoor senior recognition ceremony for graduates (DD18 is graduating). They emphasized in the invitation materials that they would ensure social distancing, but they did not. The seniors, when it was time to get out of their cars, lined up on the sidewalk, just as they would line up normally, practically shoulder to shoulder. The pastor who was in charge of lining them up did not tell them to spread out.

Then there was meant to be a photo opportunity for families at the end. They said they would call people up car by car, but they did not. Instead, people just got out of their cars and went up to the building and stood around, talking to each other. We waited for people to clear out, so that we could go up for photos, but they never did. The families just stood around, chatting, right by the photo backdrop. We waited about 20 minutes, but I didn't feel comfortable going up for pictures. We had dressed up and were looking forward to a family photo, but it was not worth the risk. I was upset while watching what was happening. Perhaps 10 percent of people were wearing masks. Because we were assured that social distancing would happen and that each family would be invited to go up alone to the photo area, it makes sense that people wouldn't think masks were going to be needed, so I don't know if they left masks at home, or if the people at our church are choosing not to wear them. We had some in the car but didn't need to put them on, because (except for DD) we stayed in the car.

I think there is no way that people will do better tomorrow before and after the church services.  Masks will not be required.  The staff evidently will not enforce their social distancing rules.

The only good things were that it was nice for us to see DD in her cap and gown, the pastor's graduation speech was nice (broadcast over our phones), and it was held outside. At least the risks of spread are reduced when people are outside. That won't be the case when the church building lets people in tomorrow.

Oh, and one of the pastors directing the cars was not wearing a mask but was leaning down to talk to people through their car windows.

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I definitely think it will different in different traditions/denominations. 
I think some liturgical tradtions, particularly Catholic, will go to a service that is less participatory....there is precedent for that. Asking people to say responses silently perhaps? Or just having a deacon or lector say the responses. And for much of the church's history weekly communion was NOT the norm. I see a return to infrequent communion, at least until we know more. 

I think the bigger issue with Catholic churches will be just space. In many places, due to priest shortages, there is only one parish for thousands of parishoners. My home Catholic parish has thousands of parishoners, and already holds 1 saturday evening and 4 sunday masses to accomodate everyone. The Sunday 6pm one is the only one not full, and the morning ones are standing room only...i tend to be a few minutes late and usually have to stand as there are no seats left in the pews. Lost of people have that happen. So I don't see how they can accomodate distancing.  They are however reopening the church this week for private devotions and prayer, which even I, the total overkilll don't want to catch it person, think is fine. It is a huge church, cathedral ceilings, so lots of air to dilute things, so minimal risk if there are only a few people in that huge space. Now, the pews are another issue, but seems totally feasible to bring something to wipe down the pew before you kneel, and sanitize after you are done praying, etc. The fabric seats are a different issue, but my understanding is that once it hits fabric it dries and dies quickly. And only kids are really at risk of touching the seat a lot with their hands. In this church's favor, they already project the words to songs/readings on the wall, so they can do without people touching any programs easily, and the bulliten is already sent via email. So maybe if they had people sign up for one mass a month, they could spread them out that way? And then there are daily masses, but those do NOT count toward the Sunday Obligation...but maybe Pope Francis could change that? So that anything from Friday evening to Monday evening would count? That would help hugely. 

On the flip side, my Episcopal parish is almost never full to the gills. (remember....I'm complicated, lol....I consider myself a Catholic expat in an Episcopal parish...I think...maybe that is backwards?)  Right before all this we tried the "family service" which is only 30 minutes, no communion, sermon is designed for kids, kids help with all the bits and bobs of the service (sometimes there are more kids passing the plate than there are adults to put some in). Now, everyone stood close, other than us because I was already worried at that point, but there was room to spread out if you wanted. And like I said, no communion. Which, pre pandemic was why we didn't usually go. But now..sounds good, lol. Only issue is lots of singing.  If they can go to something like that for the adults - no communion and shorter so less time breathing the same air, or even outdoors - they have some areas they could do that maybe..

Anglicans have a long history of weekly prayer, rather than the eucharistic service, being the main Sunday liturgy. They could return to that. People won't like it, but they could. 

Other thought I just had...most churches have a sanctuary and a parish hall, and even classrooms...what if they spread people out so that they used ALL those spaces at the same time, with TV monitors broadcasting the streamed service? Or even some outside? Heck, my Catholic parish has speakers outside right now, always has, for people with small children who wander out with a crying baby to hear the service. That way, you are still in community, in that there would be a group in each space, just smaller group so they could spread out? Have people register or go by name so that the same people don't get the "good" space every time? 

I think I may actually email them about that idea. 

 

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ok, this is how they are going to start doing communion, starting with Daily Mass. Weekend mass will start on the 31st, but there is no information on how that will work yet. But for now, this makes sense. I think that having people wear the mask while standing in front of the priest/eucharistic minister, and hopefully that person wearing a mask, receiving in the hand, and then walking a distance away to remove mask and consume is very smart!

  • Holy Communion will be distributed only in the form of the Sacred Host after the Priest has given the final blessing. Out of charity and concern for others, Communion should be received only in the hand.
    – Six feet increments have been marked on the main aisles to guide social distancing when forming a single line for Holy Communion.
    – When you have received communion in the hand, please step to the side, move your mask and consume the host.
  • Staff will be implementing cleaning procedures throughout the day to keep surfaces disinfected.
  • During this time, please do not gather in groups or socialize on the property.
  • We all have a responsibility to do what we can to ensure a healthy environment so that people feel comfortable returning to church. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
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oh, and they are as of Monday doing confession, by appointment only. I'm assuming with 6 ft distance. 

And I forgot to say that pews will be marked with blue tape in 6 ft increments...but that won't help with the pew in front of you/behind you...they are very close. They did say that ushers will be seating you so maybe they know to stagger rows?

Daily mass is never full, so plenty of room for now (alhtough with people working from home that may change? More able to come?). But I am curious to see what they are going to do for weekend mass, given what I explained in the earlier post about it normally being packed. 

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