When a kid just...won't...do... the work.

[egao_gakari]

This is like a... semi-JAWM? If you've successfully overcome this problem with your kid, I'd be interested in hearing how you did it. But right now I'm just feeling emotional/insecure about myself and my methods, and I mostly need hugs.

4th year homeschooling. Brought DS now-14 home in the middle of 6th grade. He really, really hated school, to the point of suicidal ideation. We started homeschooling and put him in therapy. He hasn't had such deep depression since then, and has generally enjoyed homeschool. But there's one thing that he's always given me the runaround with, and that's writing. He's a bright, bright kid with deep thoughts, and I've always wanted to foster that. I was a bright kid with deep thoughts, and when I learned to express them in writing, it gave me a sense of true accomplishment and self-worth. But this kid hates, hates, hates writing. We tried Killgallon. He hated it. I wanted something with more structure and guidance, so we tried WWS. It was like pulling teeth and took us 2 years to get through. Not because he was working hard but taking a long time to complete each assignment... but because he simply wasn't doing the work. If I tried to help him with it, it turned into me basically writing the thing for him. He simply wouldn't do it. ::brick_wall:: 

This year, I signed him up for an online course, figuring the outside imposition of deadlines would help. Again, I was thinking back on myself at his age. I'm extrinsically motivated, and deadlines helped me stay focused and make plans for how to get the work done. Well... I'm sure some of you can guess... 1st quarter grade reports come out, he has a 28. Out of 100. He has barely submitted any of the assignments. He explained that he'd been feeling depressed, and that the class was boring and the work was boring. The thing is, he had been actively deceiving us the whole time, claiming that he was averaging about 75 or 80. (Lower than I'd have liked, but not low enough for us to be deeply concerned.) Asked about this, the response was, "Well those are the grades I got on the stuff I submitted."

In the month since then, we've been having frequent talks about his emotional state, trying to get him back in with his therapist (booked solid weeks out). DH and I agreed that taking him out of the class wasn't the right choice, for a number of good reasons. I've been on his back trying to push him to get things done, checking the course website about once a week to make sure he's keeping up, and giving him a specific task each day to work on catching up. Today I checked again. 2 things that he claimed to have been working on all last week and claimed to have submitted... not submitted. I've got DH involved now and we're taking away his phone and video game privileges, but I'm worried this won't really solve the problem. How have we raised a deceitful kid? We've never gotten angry at him for being honest with us. We've always been open and honest with the kids about our own failures, trying to lead by example. I feel at my wits' end. Please don't judge me too harshly; I'm already hardcore judging myself for not being able to "figure out what strength is hiding in this weakness and bring it out."

[EKS]

Though it sounds like you have more going on than a simple curriculum change will solve, have you tried not using a writing program at all?  Frankly, I can't stand any of them.  They are all contrived and none of them get at the core of what writing really is--which is wrestling with ideas.  MCT is the only one that I've seen that approaches this, and I wouldn't call his stuff a "program" exactly--more like a philosophy.

I'd read the book Engaging Ideas.  And then I would have him write about what he is finding interesting in his studies.  Or come up with several open ended prompts to discuss and then have him choose one to write say 100-200 words about.  Take notes during your discussion that he can refer to.  And sit with him while he writes--make it interactive.  What you want to do is to make writing assignments less about sitting alone trying to generate the "right" response in the "right" format and more about the entire process being a dynamic conversation.  

[egao_gakari]

18 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'd read the book Engaging Ideas.  And then I would have him write about what he is finding interesting in his studies.  Or come up with several open ended prompts to discuss and then have him choose one to write say 100-200 words about.  Take notes during your discussion that he can refer to.  And sit with him while he writes--make it interactive.  What you want to do is to make writing assignments less about sitting alone trying to generate the "right" response in the "right" format and more about the entire process being a dynamic conversation.  

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll give it a read. I tried this approach (bolded) for a year. The problem is that he finds nothing interesting in his studies. There are subjects he's willing to put up with and do the work, and subjects he's not. I'd ask him questions that intrigue me about each subject, thinking we could investigate together. The response is a shrug and "I don't know." What interests him are video games. (And girls, as of very recently.) Last year, when we were trying the "write about what interests you" approach, he wrote one essay analyzing blast patterns from grenade throws in a certain video game. He did come out with something written, but it literally took him 3 months. When we sat down and talked through the initial plan, we estimated that it would take about 1 week for data collection, one week for a rough draft, and one week for a final draft. That is about what it took in the end--but there was an immense lacuna of time between each step. This is a kid who simply won't do the work when he doesn't feel like it. Nothing I have tried has worked. Standing over his shoulder watching him type just results in me writing it for him.

Edited November 25, 2019 by egao_gakari

[ElizabethB]

Are you sure his reading, writing, and spelling skills are up to it?  For the next 2 or 3 assignments, I would have him narrate to you and you type for him, then you work together moving things around to make it a good order.  After that, he narrates to a device and types while playing back narration.  Sit next to him until he finishes, being available to help.

In the meantime, check his reading skills with the NRRF quick screen test, the MWIA, and the nonsense word test, linked at the bottom of my syllables page:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Here is a spelling grade level test.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Spelling/spellingtests.html

If he is on grade level he will miss 2 words or less out of 20 on list T, this is a nice (but small) version of just the scale and words from the Ayres book from Don Potter:

http://donpotter.net/pdf/ayres-scale---chart.pdf

When this class is finished, you may want to try IEW, and sit with him as he does it.

Edited November 25, 2019 by ElizabethB

[HomeAgain]

What would happen if you simply sat there during English time?  Can you make a rule that from x time to y time, both of you will sit at the table?  He can do an online class or a textbook, or find something on his own, but make it a rule that he will attend class and you will be present, every day.  How he uses the time is still up to him, but keeping you aware of that time is most important right now, I think.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

... Take notes during your discussion that he can refer to.  And sit with him while he writes--make it interactive.  What you want to do is to make writing assignments less about sitting alone... and more about ... being a dynamic conversation.  

 

1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

...Sit next to him until he finishes, being available to help...

 

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

What would happen if you simply sat there during English time? 

Honestly, I think this is key. And... it is excruciating for the parent. But some students just can NOT generate thoughts on their own, or stay on task. The sheer blankness of paper overwhelms them. This was both of my DSs, but esp. DS#2 who had mild LDs in writing and spelling.

So, we worked together to keep him focused.

Day one, we would brainstorm together, me writing on the whiteboard, and then have him circle, star, and number items from the whiteboard, and then together jot down a keyword outline to work from.  (So: the brainstorming and organizing stages of writing.)

Day 2 when we would sit down together, it was time for rough draft writing, turning one point of the outline into a complete paragraph. If he drifted off and stared, I would gently redirect him, or prompt him with a question: "What was that example or detail you were telling me about that you were going to use about this point?" Or, "That's a great example; it looks like you just need to add 2 sentences of detail and explanation to that example to flesh it out." Day 3 (or later on Day 2), turn another point into a paragraph. Etc. After a week (or more), the rough draft is done, eating that elephant one bite at a time. (So: the rough draft stage of writing.)

Now when you sit down together you do revising. It may take several sessions. Just do one major fix per session (like, add whatever is missing; or shift things around that need to go in different places for smoother flow; or fix run-ons and fragments). (So: the revision stage of writing.)

Finally, sit down together one last time; make little arrows in the margin pointing to lines that have typos, capitalization, punctuation errors or missing punctuation. Once you have a clean copy, together make sure it is in MLA or APA format. (So: the proof-editing stage of writing.)

Doing one 3-5 paragraph paper like this sometimes took 3-5 weeks with DS. So, it was about quality, not quantity. It was about walking alongside him, and helping him overcome the hurdle of the "blank page", but also the hurdle of "yes the writing process really does require that you do every one of these stages, and some of them more than once (like brainstorming and revision)". But it was perhaps a little less painful because it was a "shared pain" -- I sat through the whole thing with him and kept cheerleading. (And after every session, hit the pantry for a double handful of chocolate chips...)

Like EKS, I never could find a writing program all through high school that worked for us, but the one thing we did that helped us more than anything else was doing a weekly essay from a past SAT essay prompt (scroll about 2/3 down on this page for oodles of past prompts to pick from). I would pull up a past date, which usually had 3-4 prompts, and we each had to pick whichever prompt we wanted from those 3-4 prompts -- sometimes limited choice makes you have to write, whereas too many options can paralyze.

1. it was consistent -- we did it once a week, same day/time every week, all through high school, so it became a reliable pattern, and the "writing muse" would show up then
2. it was not graded -- so it took the stress off of writing entirely
3. we all did it -- me too -- and then did (helpful) critiques (i.e., start positive: where is it really working well; where is it missing something; then go to specific helps: what would need to be added/changed to make it work better, and then ending positively again: "overall, what I really liked about this is ______") -- honestly, after the first year of doing this, DSs were SO much better at it than I was -- I am way too wordy LOL!
4. we built up slowly -- at first, just 1 paragraph, and 10 minutes; after a few weeks, we added a requirement; then after we had that down, we added a bit more time; then another requirement; etc.  -- again, that kept the "bites" manageable, and as we practiced, we built endurance so we could manage slightly "bigger bites"
5. timing it helped keep it "mentally manageable" for DSs -- "I can churn out 5 sentences in 10 minutes, and then I'm done"; any once they realized they CAN generate writing in a short time period, it seemed to help them build momentum and get past the "writer's block" of the blank page for other writing assignments
6. Just once in a very great while, we would take one of these timed essays and work on it over several days or a week and polish it up into a finished, longer essay.

AND... Totally disregard all of the above. If all you need right now is agreement and a hug, you've got it: (((ego_gakari))) -- getting kids to write is just about the hardest thing on earth, IMO. BEST wishes for a better rest of the week -- and school year! Hugs, Lori D.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Lori D.

[Innisfree]

Hugs, I know this is so hard.

I have one who has a history of simply refusing to do work. Part of her issue is that she is on the spectrum, and is easily overwhelmed. She also just doesn't get interested in the work, like your ds.

What has made a difference for her is having a daily after school activity which she does care about very much. If she does the basics, she goes to her activity. If not, no activity. Repeat daily. This is more motivational than anything else we have tried.

I also love Lori's advice above.

Consistent expectations of a very small amount of work, very gradually increased, has been helpful for us.

Finally-- are you absolutely sure there isn't anything else going on? You've got a bright kid who is unaccountably not performing in a specific area. Maybe there's an obstacle you can't see. I tend to go back to "kids will do well when they can," from The Explosive Child, as my mantra. He has a history of depression. There might be more. Has he had any sort of educational testing? It might be worth posting on the LC board. 

[RootAnn]

4 hours ago, egao_gakari said:

I've been on his back trying to push him to get things done, checking the course website about once a week to make sure he's keeping up, and giving him a specific task each day to work on catching up. 

Well, the deceit would bug me the most especially since it has continued. Gently, this will need to be a daily check & an "at elbow" subject like the others pointed out. You will need to be with him as he does the work & as he turns it in. With daily checks before he gets any of his privileges.

But I agree with the other posters who said something else might be going on. I don't know what it is, but if you made it clear things need to get worked on & submitted & he's not doing it, there is likely to be an underlying reason. If it is depression, something is causing it (maybe seeing others working at a higher level of writing?).

I have a kid who HATES to write. The online class thing (the right one -- I picked a big mismatch the first time I tried) was the key for getting her to actually do the work. But the procrastination continues to this day. And she's in college now. (8-10 page research paper in 5 hours? Yep, that's my procrastinator!) The difference is she now gets a decent grade on them. But she still hates the process.

Hugs. Don't beat yourself up too much. Figuring kids out is a tough process sometimes.

[egao_gakari]

Thanks, everybody. You're all absolutely right, I need to be at his side with this stuff right now. It's hard because it's not just that I hate it, he hates it too. But he needs to know how to write. Lori, I love your idea about using the SAT prompts and both of us writing responses and critiquing each other's work. I'm definitely going to implement that one!!

He's never had educational testing, although I think he should have when he was in PS. He was in a charter (he's my stepkid--I wasn't in the picture at the time) and his brightness really threw them off. There was always this "His handwriting sure is poor" comment at the parent-teacher meetings, but nobody ever brought up OT. My husband was full-time single-parenting at the time and had no idea that this could be an actual disability and not just DS being sloppy. At the very least, he has dysgraphia--I only realized how much help he needed in the area of writing when I began having him type. Before then, he had to read his compositions aloud to me because I couldn't read them, and I now think he was editing on the fly, saying what he had intended to write rather than what had actually been put on the paper.

Awful financial difficulties have made testing impossible for us the past few years, but now that things are more stable in that realm I will definitely be looking into it.

Edited November 26, 2019 by egao_gakari

[cintinative]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

 

I have a kid who HATES to write. The online class thing (the right one -- I picked a big mismatch the first time I tried) was the key for getting her to actually do the work. But the procrastination continues to this day. And she's in college now. (8-10 page research paper in 5 hours? Yep, that's my procrastinator!) The difference is she now gets a decent grade on them. But she still hates the process.

 

 

What class was it that was a great fit for your dd?

[cintinative]

OP, no real advice. Just prayers. I have certainly have seen "school apathy" in my DS12 and it can definitely be challenging to understand what is anxiety, what is lack of motivation, what is depression, what is from boredom (or lack of challenge), etc.  I have to park next to him for writing as Lori described and prod him to keep going (even with an outside class). I get how exhausting that is.  Prayers for you tonight.

[Lori D.]

One other idea I'll toss you way in case it helps. DS#2 had huge struggles with Writing and Spelling, but his even bigger struggle was with Math. It wasn't until into high school that we tried out Dianne Craft's idea of putting his most difficult subject LAST. And it only lasts for x amount of time (I would just carry over a lesson to the next day if he didn't finish), and then he knew he was DONE for the day.

Dianne Craft's explanation is that kids with LDs often have limited "brain battery" energy. They know that certain subjects drain their battery really fast, and if you do those subjects FIRST, they know they still have to get through the rest of the subjects, and will have to do it without that brain energy -- so they "hang on" to some of that brain energy by procrastination, and not doing the work, or not doing their best. When you shift that draining subject to the LAST thing of the day, and they know you will not "trick" them and make them do ANYTHING else afterwards, they feel free to expend all of their remaining brain battery energy on the last subject, knowing it's "safe" to do that, since they'll have all afternoon and evening to recharge to start the next day with a full battery.

That worked AMAZINGLY well with DS#2 and math. (I did still sit with him to help him stay on task with the math, but it went so much smoother and without the melt-downs and fights once we switched math to the end of the day.) Perhaps it might be something to try with writing with your DS??

Wishing you all the very BEST and a quick diagnosis, if there is something going on that is impeding his progress with writing! Warmest regards, Lori D.

PS -- I would also strongly suggest switching him over to typing (get him comfortable with touch typing so he'll be fast at it) -- that also REALLY helped free up my DS with his writing when he didn't have to laboriously struggle to hand-write things.

[Arcadia]

Is this his first online class? He might need a lot more hand holding even if the online class is in his best subject. 

My DS14 is writing phobic. His English classes are all outsourced because he doesn’t like me grading his essays. I literally bribe him with Snapple, madeleines and Toblerone chocolate. He is maintaining a B which is pretty good for his weakest subject other than history. Plenty of times he was going to give up on history and English essays, and simple food bribes just cheer him on. 
 

My DS13 needs more hand holding in terms of time management. He takes online classes from AIM Academy and Laurel Springs School. I check his assignments twice daily for his four online classes. It helps to make sure he is on track and doesn’t miss out any homework. I check daily for DS14 as well. I also see what grades they get and if they are doing not as well on a particular topic. 

[Farrar]

There's great advice here. I think the sitting with them is pretty key when it's not happening.

I would not worry about the deceit too much at this point. When kids are failing and depressed, it's a coping mechanism, not a moral failing. You just want to support those issues at the root and not let it become a problem. I'm guessing from how you've described him that he's probably been beating himself up about it some too.

What are his goals? What does make him happy? I mean, I get that he's not interested or engaged in schoolwork. And I'm always a bit hesitant about using a kid's "thing" to push them into some other subject - so if he does have a thing, I'm not saying he needs to write about that. However, at this age, you want to have bigger goals. College, travel, a trade, the military, a job, an art, a project, a scouting level, a sport... something. Especially if you can help him figure out where he'd like to be more long term - like five years from now - I think it may clarify the goals of writing for both of you. If he can allow himself to envision a particular sort of job, maybe that helps you figure out if writing even needs to be something that's beyond the basics.

[egao_gakari]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

There's great advice here. I think the sitting with them is pretty key when it's not happening.

I would not worry about the deceit too much at this point. When kids are failing and depressed, it's a coping mechanism, not a moral failing. You just want to support those issues at the root and not let it become a problem. I'm guessing from how you've described him that he's probably been beating himself up about it some too.

What are his goals? What does make him happy? I mean, I get that he's not interested or engaged in schoolwork. And I'm always a bit hesitant about using a kid's "thing" to push them into some other subject - so if he does have a thing, I'm not saying he needs to write about that. However, at this age, you want to have bigger goals. College, travel, a trade, the military, a job, an art, a project, a scouting level, a sport... something. Especially if you can help him figure out where he'd like to be more long term - like five years from now - I think it may clarify the goals of writing for both of you. If he can allow himself to envision a particular sort of job, maybe that helps you figure out if writing even needs to be something that's beyond the basics.

Yeah, this has been a thing both DH and I have prodded him about, but so far there's been nothing "careerish" that has sparked his passion. He basically describes wanting a job that will provide him with financial stability and won't be grueling. DH isn't super concerned about this yet, as he discovered his passion through a lucky happenstance of taking a job out of necessity and finding that he loved the work. But we've had numerous conversations about how somehow neither of our kids has a hobby that they truly love. When I was a kid it was music and school, for DH it was music and hunting and definitely not school. DD at least is extroverted and passionate about spending time with friends, and she's expressed interest in starting sports in the spring. But DS gets single-mindedly obsessed with one thing at a time--cars, then superheroes, then collectibles (Funko Pops mainly), then video games--and any time I've attempted to relate his current obsession to our academics, the passion fades. 

One recent bright spot has been that he loves, loves, loves his online Biology class. His grades were poor in that one too, but he figured out what he was doing wrong and in 5 weeks has raised his grade in that class from a 40 😑 to a 70 and has gotten 100's on everything recent. It's the first time he's ever expressed liking something academic, and he's commented that if the teacher is available, he'd like to do a class with her next year too. We've always thought he was science-oriented, and I'm totally fine with that--I just want him to be a good enough writer that if he wants to go to college for a science subject, he can get into the program he wants. I had a long, tearful talk with him yesterday where I did my best to make that clear, and that seemed to open his eyes about it and he has submitted 3 missing assignments in the last 24 hours. 🙂

[...................]

So I read through the responses, and I liked what Ferrar said...

I also have another option- could you just require ONE decent 5 paragraph Essay, ONE decent 5 page research report, and just give him for each, stapled:

ONE page expectations, ONE page rubric....for each. 

My thought is, could he just be bored out of his mind?

.....Also, does he have other hobbies, friends, and activities?  Video gaming is very addictive but also very depressing because you don't have real humans to interact with.  It fulfills the short term endorphin high, but not the long term human need for actual friends and interaction. So they keep going back to it over and over and over for that short term endorphins but it doesn't actually ever fulfill what they really need as a human.  Video games also affect attention span.  

Does he have things to look forward to ?  Family trips, vacations, visits to relatives that he enjoys, sports or hobbies?

 

[Farrar]

I don't think it has to be a passion. Wanting to find that one right thing... it  doesn't happen for all people. And I think we have to emphasize to kids that it's okay if you don't find it. You do want to find something you can enjoy enough to do it. But it doesn't have to be a real love. I think we do our kids a disservice when we emphasize this sort of thinking: 

These things don't actually have to overlap to find a happy life. He'll never get paid for collecting Pop's and he likely won't ever get paid to play video games. But that doesn't mean those things can't be the things he loves. It sounds like he kind of knows this... he says he just wants something stable with decent pay... that's an okay goal. All these circles can sit in separate places and still be part of a happy adult.

If he likes biology, there are TONS of jobs in the medical field that require training and could give him that stable sort of level of income that he wants. Things in nursing or various medical technician or physical therapy type jobs. Lots of different potential avenues. I think maybe framing it in those sorts of terms of like, okay, this subject seems to be a thing you enjoy and feel you can excel at and maybe wouldn't mind having to study in some form. Maybe that will change, and if it does, we can change gears. But in the meantime, let's explore it, and here's some very achievable paths you could take. And taking those paths... like, maybe to community college... requires that you get through this year of writing.

I don't know what online course you chose - but I've found that a lot of the ones out there seem geared toward honors level English work, or they seem fitted into a relatively rigid system like IEW, or they seem to provide very limited feedback (ahem, Brave Writer... I love the system, but the classes...). They just seem geared toward kids who are on a pretty academic path overall - especially the ones giving grades. I don't know if that applies here, but I would look at that and ask yourself if maybe he needs a slower, more relaxed approach - which, as a 9th grader who, from what you describe, isn't going to be aiming for selective four year schools, is FINE.

[freesia]

I agree with a lot of the above advice. My oldest ds had a hard time “getting it together” at the beginning of high school. Outside accountability helped the most, but I had to check daily to make sure work got turned in-in his case backside he lacked the executive functioning skills at that age.  Doing this would help you figure out why he’s not getting it done—lacking the organization or the will. At any rate you will know. 

I slowly pulled back from doing this. Even his senior year, I still checked once a week to make sure everything was on track. We Told him if he got C’s it meant he needed our support daily with extra help.  

He is now thriving as a sophomore at college with a 4.0, so the extra scaffolding didn’t hurt him at all.

[ElizabethB]

Glad to hear things are going a bit better!

With that being said, most schools do not teach reading or writing well.  I would still check his reading ability, if it and the nonsense words are below grade norms, work through my complete syllables program and all of the 2+ syllable words in Webster.  If he is at or above grade level, I would watch through my "Super Speed Syllables" overview, then lessons 7 - 10, there are some writing exercises in lessons 7 - 10 and spelling info you don't normally see in the schools.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

[Little Green Leaves]

My kids are much younger. But I was a lot like your son in many ways -- a bright kid who really hated doing schoolwork. I was also deceitful ALL the time about grades etc. Don't beat yourself up. I think it's kind of natural for a teenager to lie about these things.

What worked for me was finding a good peer group. There was one year in high school when I had a group of hardworking friends and, because they were always studying or doing homework, I started studying and doing homework too. 

I know you tried an online class, but maybe there's an in-person class he can take? Even a creative writing workshop or something at the library? If he liked the people there and enjoyed the classes, he'd probably do the assignments. Depending on his personality he might even like a class meant for adults -- sometimes it's fun to be the youngest in a group.

[elegantlion]

My son is in college now, but writing instruction while homeschooling made me pull my hair out. He still hates writing. Like you, I am a writer, he is not. Agree with much of what has been said about needing to be by his side. Sometimes I orally walked ds through an essay. I would ask questions, he would give an answer, then I'd have him write that down - granted there was a lot of emotion in those few short steps - his apathy, my frustration. We used a white board to outline an essay.

In hindsight, one of the most helpful I did was teach him argumentation - Workbook for arguments is one source that worked well for us. He knows how to hone to summarize information and be concise - which is a skill. Also in hindsight, I wish I'd had him do more with reaching word count goals - but after learning to summarize. He still will turn in papers that are too short - but he gets decent grades because although he writes little, he writes well organized papers with substantive arguments. 

The other thing that was important to me was the art of letting go of my expectations for him. He's never going to love writing - he's a senior in college so that is borne out - but he's a math major. I dislike math, but could write papers all day. Learning to express oneself in writing is a valuable skill, but not everyone is going to embrace the task. Once I let go of the angst I had about him as a writer, that helped both of our stress levels.