Writing woes

[silver]

I don't know if I want commiseration or advice, so I guess I'll take both.

My oldest hates to write. I have tried many different writing curricula over the years. Tears are always involved. He's currently working very, very slowly through WWS 1. Today he had to write a description of a place. He didn't read the instructions first. After writing the paragraph, he asks me about one of the requirements given in the book. The first thing I ask him is if he read the instructions. Yes, he claims, he has. I then go over the requirement he asked about (choosing a purpose for the description). When we've finished, I ask him what purpose he wants to choose. Instead of answering, he bursts into tears, because now he has to rewrite the thing (he had no purpose chosen). A single paragraph. That he already has taken notes for. And it's causing tears.

And this is how writing goes almost everyday. I drag him kicking and screaming through the assignment. It's not WWS, because we've had this problem with other writing curricula as well.

I don't know what the problem is here. Is it pre-teen brain fog? Is it laziness? Is it an attitude problem? It's it because the rest of school is easy for him, and he resents having to put effort into this? Am I a lousy writing instructor? Is there a learning disability causing legitimate difficulties? Are my expectations too high? Have I not given him enough writing practice over the years?

I'm about to call this a lost cause and just teach him to write poorly done five paragraph essays and have him churn those out for the rest of his school career. With our current issues, it'd probably take him three weeks to do a single essay. At his age, my middle school expected us to go from topic to finished essay in less than an hour.

Please send chocolate.

[HomeAgain]

I could have written your post several years ago.  My advice?  Put WWS1 away.  Let it go until he's a teen.
When my kid was 10, I switched to LARGE age range curriculum where he was at the top of the range.  Like, 9-11yo, or in 7th, 4th-8th. I needed him to feel successful and I stopped giving a flying flip if he was working anywhere near grade level.  He wasn't, and I didn't care.  I just needed him to do it and easily do it.  And we still had days like you wrote.  He wouldn't read the instructions and get upset when I insisted we read the instructions together and he realized his issue with it.  It's brain fog, yes, but for my own sanity I just needed it done and at that point I didn't care if he ever got to the point where he could write beyond 4th grade work.

FWIW, when I did give him WWS1 in 8th, he did beautifully.  And he did learn how to like writing enough to attempt a short novel in his sophomore or junior year of high school.  Two things I could not have predicted even a few years before.

[8filltheheart]

Do you have the ability to sit with him while he writes?  I would provide him as much scaffolding as he needs for a while then when he seems confident, I would gradually wean myself away from him giving him baby step independence.  For example, help him create an outline.  Help him organize his thoughts.  Guide him in writing his topic sentence, etc.

I would also initially not criticize anything he writes (nor would I ask him to rewrite something he misread).  I would find something about every assignment to praise.  Good topic sentence, nice transition word, varied sentence structure, good punctuation, anything.....  Then I would take what he has written and talk about how different changes might make it more easily understood.  Talk about them (don't make him write them).  On a separate piece of paper you can brainstorm the ideas and then try altering a single sentence (most likely the topic sentence).   Orally have him recreate his detail sentences.  You write down what he says.  The next day compare the 2 paragraphs.  Ask him what he likes about both of them.  Get him to articulate why.  Then you share what you like.  

I would then assign a parallel type of assignment.  Again, sit with him offering him support.  This time as you sit together, bring in your conversations about other paragraphs in order to get him to think about he should be incorporating.

And so on.  

[Creekside5]

I can’t figure out the age of your son. You said pre-teen so I’m guessing 12? I think your expectations are way way to high.  There is no way a typical 6 th grader can independently craft a decent 5 paragraph essay in one week. My 7/8 class will take 3 weeks to write an essay on the hobbit.  I am spoon feeding it to the 7 th graders.  We craft almost all of it together. 1 week for an outline, 1 week for a rough draft, and 1 week for revising and editing.  Work on paragraph skills- topic sentences and supporting ideas.  Sit with him to brainstorm. Write the topic sentence together.  Kids have to be shown what to do. Writing is super overwhelming an a complex process. Give lots of grace, but don’t skip it. 

[Pen]

Have you tried Brave Writer: Kids Write Basic class?  

It’s a kind gentle approach and you can be his scribe or helper or fellow participant while someone else will be teacher and model a positive feedback and baby steps approach. 

[PeterPan]

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

Is it pre-teen brain fog?

Hold it, how old is this dc? When WWS first came out, it had this really ambitious marking for grades/ages. Then people started using it, and we found everything from 4th to 10th. All bright kids. All doing it at the time that was right for them.

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

I have tried many different writing curricula over the years.

Oh dear.

Can I ask a question? Do you want him to like writing? People have a lot of different reasons for finding writing hard. I have found with my kids I have to set aside my own internal insecurities and worries and frustrations and just stop and get back to honestly working with the dc. My dd had a hard time getting stuff out, and we just kept working it gently. She's since been told she probably should have received some kind of SLD diagnosis (but didn't mind you, we did evals), and she uses accommodations in college. My ds actually does have his issues diagnosed, sigh. With both of them, I tried to believe that if I WENT GINGERLY and didn't KILL their love of writing before all the skills and factors could come together, it would be there.

For my dd, it did finally come together. She started entering fan fiction writing contests in junior high and took off. It's still HARD, fatiguing, etc., but she doesn't hate it anymore. 

For my ds, I'm even more protective. I believe he has something to say and that when the language skills and his motor planning and ability to get it out converge, he'll have something to say too, something worth getting out. And I DON'T LET ANYONE teach him writing who doesn't believe that. 

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

Is it laziness? Is it an attitude problem?

So just so you know, anytime someone says that, my first question is going to be ADHD. 

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

It's it because the rest of school is easy for him, and he resents having to put effort into this?

Is it? Can he type? And what do you mean, put effort into it? You want the level of effort to be developmentally appropriate. What the boards found was that marking WWS for 4th/5th or whatever was REALLY AMBITIOUS and that most kids were clicking with it much later. SWB has since revised. My dd has ADHD, and the WWS manual was just a slog of over verbosity. I went through with a highlighter and made sure the important things were obvious.

When an area is hard, the other concept you want is errorless learning. You want the task to be SO WITHIN REACH that he actually can just do it. What if you backed off and did something else? Here's something that is grade leveled that hits foundational skills in a sequential, gradual way. Spectrum Writing Workbook Grade 5 Paperbackhttps://www.carsondellosa.com › Shop All

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

Am I a lousy writing instructor?

We all GROW in our skills. 

There's a common misconception that the public schools don't have a clue about writing right now. What's actually happening is a surge of interest in "narrative language," which of course is the thing we as homeschoolers have been on for YEARS. It was the whole point of WWE, WTM, etc., that narrative language development is the foundation for expository writing and reading comprehension. Also common core goals have a very classical progression, things we would recognize. 

That's not to say that's what they're doing in the classrooms, haha, but for intervention, with SLPs, with the people who are actually TRAINED in narrative language, there's good methodology out there, yes. Something to get you started https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

Is there a learning disability causing legitimate difficulties?

Well the easiest way see if it's the WWS or happening with anything is by getting something grade leveled from a standard publisher and see what happens. I linked you that Spectrum Success with Writing book. This comes in all the grades, is broken into small chunks, and should be within reach for many kids assuming no language disability. My ds would struggle with it, but I don't think most kids would. Structure, small chunks, clear expectations, this are normal supports to bring into instruction.

I would take a deep breath and figure out what he CAN do. 

-can he type?

-is writing physically uncomfortable or awkward?

-can he repeat back a sequence of commands if you say things like tap your head, jump three times, turn around, scratch like a monkey?

-does he have indications of ADHD?

-what does HE say is making writing challenging? What does he say is happening? Not just with WWS, but any time he tries to write. 

-was he ever in speech therapy or was he a late talker?

-can he tell you about his day or what he did when he went out for the day with his dad or about a movie he watched?

-what happens if you ask him to tell you a book he read? How does that change if you ask him to *write* about the book?

-does he like to do language play? 

-does he write at all for himself? 

On September 20, 2019 at 10:43 AM, silver said:

Have I not given him enough writing practice over the years?

Haha, doesn't sound like that's the issue. But it will take some detective work to figure out what's going on. I don't want to be one to poo-poo evals. I mean, nuts, my ds has only seen like 6 psychs, lol. So sure if you want to do evals, you'd probably learn something. I don't know if, but tears are a pretty big indication something is going on. But you'd like to learn enough for YOURSELF that you can figure out where the issue likely is. That way you can pick the appropriate person to eval.

There's something called the Simple View of Writing, and here's a google search just to get you started.

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=simple+view+of+writing&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I really like the images that pop up in the hits, and I'm having trouble linking the one I like. But you'll see in them how attention/executive function, transcription, text generation, self-regulation, etc. go together. They're ALL factors, so you have to look at all of them and see how many are involved. And sure you could say is it me, am I unrealistic. If you're using grade leveled materials from a standard publisher and getting TEARS, something is going on. We don't want tears, not for anyone. That stress shuts down learning and is not instructive or helpful.

So it can be the physical act, the language, the executive function, anything. You're going to have to look at all the pieces. For my dd, it's all the pieces. It's ALL hard. Some of those pieces we can make easier with tech, using graphic organizer software like Inspiration and supports like highlighting important information. For the language, we recognize that she needs extra time (per her psych testing), a limited distraction environment (an accommodation she uses in college), and that it will be exceptionally fatiguing. And her ONLY diagnosis from the neuropsych when we tried to sort this out? ADHD. I kid you not. But the kid would shed blood over writing and is literally dead after writing two essay tests in college this week. Like I call on the phone and I'm like YOU SOUND HORRIBLE. Oh, I had essay tests. Diagnosis, ADHD.

So it's not the label that's helpful so much as the breakdowns of those components that feed into writing. My dd struggled to type, thanks to some mild, subclinical praxis issues, and I finally moved her over to an alternate keyboard layout (Dvorak). We did metronome work and brought working memory and distractions into that. She needed high structure assignments with limited distraction and extended time. There were things we could do just to get her functional, but it's still hard, yeah. 

So dig, get some more info, look at the pieces. See what you already know about him that you could share here so that you can connect dots and figure out some options. If you've tried a lot of curriculum, maybe you don't need more curriculum. At that age, like 4th-6th, my dd was doing things like daily writing prompts from the Jump In tm (yes, just the prompts, completely skip the curriculum, only the prompts, lol), weekly book summaries either on her own or with the How to Report on Books forms (gr5-6), outlining non-fiction sources like Muse magazine articles. She really liked Wordsmith Apprentice. We had completed Writing Tales 1 and 2. She didn't do WWS1 until 8th, and that with me doing EXTREME supports, highlighting important information, chunking, etc. She did WWS2 in 9th iirc. I'm just getting fuzzy on it, lol. Went to college with top scholarships and has done great. Just two more semesters and an internship, tick tick... But she's vociferous about using her accommodations. Evals and getting paper trail were SO important.

Share what you've got, what you know, but to me what I'd be looking at is *who* would do the evals. A clinical psych is only useful if they do something more than basic achievement, IQ, and an ADHD screening, kwim? You could have already guessed all that. So it takes a little work to find the right person. But see what your dots and what you already know are saying. Maybe something will become obvious. There are some clinical psychs who do narrative language testing and tests for this do exist. For real. There are also some standardized writing disability tests that SLPs can do. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by PeterPan

[silver]

I'm unable to get quotes correctly...

I want to start by thanking you for the various things to look at/look into.

My son is in 7th grade/12-years-old. He doesn't cry every day, but there are more tears than there ought to be, and just because he isn't crying, doesn't mean he's enjoying it those days. Thinking over past programs we've done, ones that were a complete flop had really vague assignments (or made the student pick the topic) or required creative writing. I think my current plan will be to set aside (or permanently drop) WWS and try Writing Skills by Diana King.

With regards to typing, yes, he can type. He's been typing or doing orally everything related to his English work since end of 3rd grade. Well, I take that back, he doesn't type diagrams and he didn't type copywork (which we did through 5th grade). Typing is not hard for him, but handwriting can be. He has an odd lefty pencil grip and presses hard with his pencil. We've changed the type of pencil he uses and that seems to have helped some. 

I've not looked into ADHD, as he's pretty good at managing his time, keeping his belonging organized, and other executive functioning type of things. He was a later talker, but not so late as to need intervention (we had him evaluated at two).

When I ask him why he doesn't like writing (which I've done on more than one occasion), he either says he doesn't know or he says that he doesn't like either the topic or assignments. He likes science and history outside of WWS, so I'm not sure how much the topic is the issue. He can handle oral narrations (but could not handle writing the narration down after telling it to me). He loves to read and tests well for reading comprehension (tested at lexile 1495L–1645L last spring). 

For language play, he plays with rhyming and alliteration with his siblings outside of school time. He'll volunteer to type things for his younger sister. He writes (2-5 sentence) letters to his cousins and short messages to his sisters during games they play. 

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't jump to the assumption of a learning disability. It could just be an overwhelmed 12 year old. I would just try working with him where he's actually functioning and then see what happens.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I wouldn't jump to the assumption of a learning disability. It could just be an overwhelmed 12 year old. I would just try working with him where he's actually functioning and then see what happens.

I agree.  I would also reduce the pressure on both of you. There isn’t really a behind.  Start where he is and just keep working at it. Scaffold a lot. Brainstorm with him, collaborate on writing an outline. Point out what he is doing well. Work on good solid paragraphs.  Don’t worry about essays in an hour.  If he needs that skill for testing eventually, it will come. 

[freesia]

I also want to add that my third child gets overwhelmed very easily. He needs me to sit with him and collaborate with him much longer than any of my others. If I don’t do it, he can look lazy, but he’s not. He just needs me there longer.  Eventually he flies and is one of my most diligent, hard working, responsible children.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, silver said:

I'm unable to get quotes correctly...

Little trick. Use your mouse/cursor/trackpad and *highlight* what you want to quote. When you release, it should show a little button to quote the highlighted text, boom. That's how I do bits like that.

4 hours ago, silver said:

He has an odd lefty pencil grip and presses hard with his pencil.

Has he had an OT eval for that? Sometimes there's something going on like core strength issues, the way he leans on his arm, or vision problems. So if he's having vision problems, the stress of converging the images would translate into the tight grip. I'd be getting his eyes checked (just with an annual visit, asking them to screen) by a developmental optometrist. It's just a normal thing to do, like going to the dentist. And consider the OT eval with someone who specializes in writing. Sometimes those intake evals are like $80, so it's not a huge thing and not a commitment to therapy. You might learn enough just with intake to make a game plan. 

4 hours ago, silver said:

He was a later talker,

There's some recent research showing that kids who are late talkers continue to have subtle language issues. 

4 hours ago, silver said:

(we had him evaluated at two)

So this was with an SLP? At age 2? At lot of improvements have been made since then, advancements in understanding of narrative language development.

4 hours ago, silver said:

try Writing Skills by Diana King.

WS by King is used around here by tutors working with dyslexics. My concern would be whether he has narrative language deficits or other language issues going on that need to be identified. Her materials were developed *before* all these advances, and we now know that narrative development is the foundation for expository. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  This link has charts showing the relationship. So it might not address all the issues or be what you'd choose with further testing.

4 hours ago, silver said:

When I ask him why he doesn't like writing (which I've done on more than one occasion), he either says he doesn't know or he says that he doesn't like either the topic or assignments. He likes science and history outside of WWS, so I'm not sure how much the topic is the issue.

I could make a *guess* on this. Sometimes when people have language difficulties, they have preloaded and pre-thought the language for their favorite topics but aren't prepared to engage with the new topic. So even if he likes history, if the language is not in his head, it can't come out. And WWS definitely is not preloading language for him, lol. 

And really, who knows? I would suggest trying to find a psych who happens to do language testing like the TNL or an SLP who specializes in literacy or both. The literacy SLPs often have the more in-depth language tests that a regular, random SLP will not. If you can start with the SLP, it might be the place. See who you find, kwim? 

I'll just ask. Have you ever wondered if he's on the spectrum?

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I wouldn't jump to the assumption of a learning disability.

Agreed. It's possible to have difficulties that need support and not have an SLD. My dd didn't get that label, and she still needs accommodations, extra time, and finds it fatiguing. 

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

It could just be an overwhelmed 12 year old.

Oh he's clearly overwhelmed, sigh. Given that he was a late talker who has been this frustrated this long, it would be nice to have some SLP testing at least to dig in and figure out why he's having a hard time. If she found the right SLP, she'd probably learn a ton and get actionable information.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I'd suggest you scrap formal curricula for the time being, and help him build confidence and even enjoyment in writing.

My daughter was a very reluctant writer and we got around this by doing nothing formal, but instead we played writing 'games' every day. 

The best one involved a 3-minute sand timer and a whole lot of visual prompts, which I'd printed and laminated, in about the size of a deck of cards. 

We'd sit side-by-side and each flip over a card. We then flipped the timer and we both had to write for that full 3 minutes. If you don't know what to write about, you can just describe the card, or even just write about not knowing what to write about.

The key thing was that we BOTH did it. This helped enormously. Firstly, it helped me realise how hard it can be to write. And secondly, we were in it together.

This really, truly, absolutely worked for us. Three minutes a day is not a lot, so we never had an excuse not to just do it. And it didn't take long before we were disappointed when the timer ran out.

I ended up expanding the activity with some variations, which I'm happy to explain if you're interested.

This turned my reluctant writer around. I hope it helps yours.

Edited September 24, 2019 by chocolate-chip chooky

[chocolate-chip chooky]

16 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

THIS.  I learned a LOT by going side-by-side with writing with my son.  We did a weekend course with Andrew Pudewa and my own writing improved.  

Also, I should add that I am a really decent expository writer, but ask me to do creative writing, and you can just forget it.  I decided recently I was going to remedy this so I got a middle-school level creative writing course and tackled it with firm resolve that I was going to DO this.  I was completely STUCK by lesson 5.  I just have NO IDEA how to even write a 5-point plot line.

Mercifully, I don't HAVE to write creatively.  I am *reading* the rest of the book, but not doing the work, so I can glean some skill in understanding the creative writing I read, and that is going well.  But I can't DO it.  It's always been this way for me re: creative writing.  

 

Yes!

As the adult, it seems easy to read the task and hand it over. Try doing it yourself? Wow, it gave me insight and appreciation and empathy and understanding.

 

[silver]

2 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I ended up expanding the activity with some variations, which I'm happy to explain if you're interested.

I'd love some more ideas for enjoyable writing.

(And anyone else that has ideas, please feel free to share.)

[chocolate-chip chooky]

21 hours ago, silver said:

I'd love some more ideas for enjoyable writing.

(And anyone else that has ideas, please feel free to share.)

So, we started with just picture prompt cards and a 3-minute timer. We'd sit together, flip a card each, and then we both had to write for the 3 minutes, based somehow on our card. Like I said upthread, it didn't take long before we wanted more than 3 minutes.

I expanded the idea by making a second deck of cards. These gave instructions on what to write. So we'd each flip two cards, one from the picture cards and one from the instruction cards, and then write for 3 minutes. We actually ended up ignoring the timer - success!

The instruction cards were things like:

- This is the cover of a book. Write the blurb.

- This is an album cover. Write the list of song titles.

- This image provokes a memory of a dream. What was the dream?

And so on. I made up a stack of them. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Another fun writing activity we did was tandem writing. We had a notebook on the dining table and anyone in the family could come and add the next paragraph to the story. 

Another one was Fortunately, Unfortunately - taking turns.

You'll see the common theme here - we did writing together.

We also liked the book Once Upon a Slime by Andy Griffiths. He's a hugely popular Australian author and this book is full of fun writing ideas. He also talks about himself as a child learning to write, if I remember correctly. His style is sort of gross humour, so it's not everyone's cup of tea. We loved it 🙂 

https://www.booktopia.com.au/once-upon-a-slime-andy-griffiths/book/9781742612096.html

 

For quite a while my focus was on building enjoyment and confidence in writing. We didn't use any formal curricula. I just cobbled together bits and pieces that worked for us.

Good luck!

[lewelma]

My older ds would make a treasure hunt. He would write up 10 clues and then hide them sequentially for his younger brother to find, with a prize at the end.

I still write collaboratively with my younger son. I am sitting with him right now and he is almost 16. Some kids just find it really hard to master a complex task that can't be easily or effectively broken down into smaller pieces for a holistic thinker. My younger son also MUST write about something that he knows about or is interested in.  So he picks his own topics and has from the beginning. 

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My older ds would make a treasure hunt. He would write up 10 clues and then hide them sequentially for his younger brother to find, with a prize at the end.

I still write collaboratively with my younger son. I am sitting with him right now and he is almost 16. Some kids just find it really hard to master a complex task that can't be easily or effectively broken down into smaller pieces for a holistic thinker. My younger son also MUST write about something that he knows about or is interested in.  So he picks his own topics and has from the beginning. 

Can you share a little about what collaborative writing looks like for you?

My 10 year old really struggles with writing.  I am doing almost all of his writing with him...but saying it is collaborative would be stretching it.  He will suggest a very simple subject-verb sentence, I will write it.  I start nudging: "DS, could we add more information about who, what, when, where or how?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "What other information do you know that would be important or interesting for the reader to know?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "Do you know where the event took place?"  DS: "Yes."  Me: "How could you add that to the sentence?"  DS: "I don't know."  Eventually, after many failed attempts to get DS to join in the collaboration process: "DS, could we add a strong adjective to describe the subject?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Can you think of one?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "What about dangerous or venomous?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Which one sounds better to you?"  DS: "I can't decide." 

He can actually produce a well-organized, yet stultifyingly boring paragraph.  Along the lines of: "Frogs are amphibians.  They live in both the water and on land.  They lay eggs.  They don't have scales.  Frogs are one type of amphibian."  Also his grammar is very strong.  He can correctly punctuate even complex constructions and consistently recognize and fix sentence fragments and run-ons.  So he has the analytical side of writing covered, it's the creative/imaginative/artistic side (even in expository writing) that is proving his nemesis.

Wendy

[Chelli]

One of the key things with reluctant, beginning writers, especially boys, is tailor the assignment to their interests.

So in your example of write a description of a place, tweak that assignment to: write a description of one of the areas in Fortnite or describe his dream car or describe the planet Tatooine, etc. Take a writing curriculum. Look at the assignments (what types of writing is it teaching, what aspects of good writing is it having them focus on, etc.). Tailor those to your child. Don't grade it or mark it up. Talk about what they did well and something to improve. Rewrite it together.

I try to save specific writing assignments/essays that are connected with school work until high school. Yes, kids need to know how to write to fit an assignment, but not until much later, IMO, than most people introduce it.

I also agree with everything that others said above, specifically @8FillTheHeart. I've learned so much over the years that has honed my own teaching writing methods. Generally if a child is balking as much as yours is that means 1) you are asking them to do something they don't know how to do (even if you think they should know or that you've taught it to them a million times), 2) you are asking them to do something that they are not ready to do maturity wise as a writer or 3) they have internalized the message that they aren't good at writing (due to pushing them to write too soon or over-correcting their work) that now they are afraid to even try.

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

So, we started with just picture prompt cards and a 3-minute timer. We'd sit together, flip a card each, and then we both had to write for the 3 minutes, based somehow on our card. Like I said upthread, it didn't take long before we wanted more than 3 minutes.

I expanded the idea by making a second deck of cards. These gave instructions on what to write. So we'd each flip two cards, one from the picture cards and one from the instruction cards, and then write for 3 minutes. We actually ended up ignoring the timer - success!

The instruction cards were things like:

- This is the cover of a book. Write the blurb.

- This is an album cover. Write the list of song titles.

- This image provokes a memory of a dream. What was the dream?

And so on. I made up a stack of them. 

Ok, I LOVE these cards!! Where did you get them? Or you made them? 

We have a lot of language and early writing goals we could work on with picture prompt cards.

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, wendyroo said:

He can actually produce a well-organized, yet stultifyingly boring paragraph.  Along the lines of: "Frogs are amphibians.  They live in both the water and on land.  They lay eggs.  They don't have scales.  Frogs are one type of amphibian."

We're working on curses this week, forming a curse with a series of adjectives, and same gig, very hard. But hey, it seems like a worthy cause, learning to curse well.

http://shakespearestudyguide.com/Shake2/Curses.html

It probably ties in with the writing nature poetry book I got. Sort of the kind and the cursing sides of each other. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by PeterPan

[chocolate-chip chooky]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I LOVE these cards!! Where did you get them? Or you made them? 

We have a lot of language and early writing goals we could work on with picture prompt cards.

I made them 🙂 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I made them 🙂 

Is there any chance you'd be allowed to share them? 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Is there any chance you'd be allowed to share them? 

Let's see what I can find...give me a minute or two.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Alrighty. I'll try to attach a couple of documents. I was having trouble remembering what I saved all the files as. I know I have stacks more than this, because my deck of cards has dozens and dozens.

All I did was trawl Google Images for a range of images. I printed and laminated these pages and then cut them into individual cards.

I'll keep looking.

visual writing prompts.docx visual writing prompts 2.docx visual writing prompts 3.docx

[chocolate-chip chooky]

It would have been helpful if I'd had some sort of system to naming these a few years ago 🙄

Wow, it's fun looking back at these. I'm remembering some of the things my daughter wrote. She was 8 yr old and in a deep, dark poetry frame of mind at the time, hence the gothic feel of so many of them 🙂 

I'm still trying to find the orange cards. I have no idea what I named those files! Bear with me, I'll find them.

writing prompts Mar 2015.docx writing prompts April 2015.docx writing prompts 4 Oct 2014.docx

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Found it!

I printed it onto coloured paper to make the two decks easily identifiable when face down.

I have more of the image documents if anyone is interested.

writing cards.docx

[PeterPan]

26 minutes ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

Found it!

What a treasure trove!! Thank you for sharing! 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Just now, PeterPan said:

What a treasure trove!! Thank you for sharing! 

You're most welcome. I'd be thrilled to know they are being used 🙂 

Let me know if you want any more.

[kbutton]

On 9/25/2019 at 7:40 PM, wendyroo said:

Can you share a little about what collaborative writing looks like for you?

My 10 year old really struggles with writing.  I am doing almost all of his writing with him...but saying it is collaborative would be stretching it.  He will suggest a very simple subject-verb sentence, I will write it.  I start nudging: "DS, could we add more information about who, what, when, where or how?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "What other information do you know that would be important or interesting for the reader to know?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "Do you know where the event took place?"  DS: "Yes."  Me: "How could you add that to the sentence?"  DS: "I don't know."  Eventually, after many failed attempts to get DS to join in the collaboration process: "DS, could we add a strong adjective to describe the subject?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Can you think of one?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "What about dangerous or venomous?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Which one sounds better to you?"  DS: "I can't decide." 

He can actually produce a well-organized, yet stultifyingly boring paragraph.  Along the lines of: "Frogs are amphibians.  They live in both the water and on land.  They lay eggs.  They don't have scales.  Frogs are one type of amphibian."  Also his grammar is very strong.  He can correctly punctuate even complex constructions and consistently recognize and fix sentence fragments and run-ons.  So he has the analytical side of writing covered, it's the creative/imaginative/artistic side (even in expository writing) that is proving his nemesis.

I can't comment too much on the collaborative writing, but the narrative language stuff from Mindwing Concepts that Peter Pan mentioned would hit all of this stuff.

Have you done any work on sentence combining or on subordinating one idea to another? That helps my kids write more interesting sentences.

[lewelma]

On 9/26/2019 at 11:40 AM, wendyroo said:

Can you share a little about what collaborative writing looks like for you?

My 10 year old really struggles with writing.  I am doing almost all of his writing with him...but saying it is collaborative would be stretching it.  He will suggest a very simple subject-verb sentence, I will write it.  I start nudging: "DS, could we add more information about who, what, when, where or how?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "What other information do you know that would be important or interesting for the reader to know?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "Do you know where the event took place?"  DS: "Yes."  Me: "How could you add that to the sentence?"  DS: "I don't know."  Eventually, after many failed attempts to get DS to join in the collaboration process: "DS, could we add a strong adjective to describe the subject?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Can you think of one?"  DS: "I don't know."  Me: "What about dangerous or venomous?"  DS: "Okay."  Me: "Which one sounds better to you?"  DS: "I can't decide." 

 

 

It this stage of writing (my boy was closer to 13 when we were here), we made it all fun fun fun. We also made it oral.

1) We would read together about frogs and get excited and watch videos and look stuff up. 

2) We would talk about frogs, a discussion of what we learned, what was super cool, or disgusting, or fascinating.  As he got more keen (took like a year), we would start to research side by side rather than reading together the same thing.  And then it became "Hey mom, did you know..."  And I would say, "no. That's cool. I'm reading about...." 

3) He had to stand on one leg in the middle of the room on a circle on the carpet and orally tell me about frogs.  This had to be fun, so we did lay down, jump in the air, then tell me one sentence. Then lay down jump in the air and tell me the next sentence.  Whatever.  But it was usually physical and funny. And he would fall down or whatever.

4) He had to compose the paragraph again in the same silly way. And then one more time standing still but still standing in the circle. 

5) He had to talk the paragraph into a dictaphone. The same paragraph he had already said three times.

6) He had to type it into the computer from the dictaphone

7) He had to make any changes he wanted to make

8.) In the beginning I just celebrated this, but then later I would help him with ONE thing. Maybe not starting sentences with This, or maybe adding in 3 cool adjectives.  Etc.  But at the beginning, I just said "wow, cool, look at what you did."

I've had to be super creative and incrementing up step by step with my dygraphia boy. Keep in mind that the above was at the age of 13.  He has now (about 3 years later) just finished a 8000 word research report (with help!) on comparing the differences in development between the DRC and Botswana and the historical, social, and environmental causes.  So don't loose hope!!  Kids pick up the speed in the teen years.

Ruth in NZ

Edited October 1, 2019 by lewelma

[chocolate-chip chooky]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Thanks so much for this idea! I tried it with my daughter who can sometimes be a reluctant writer. I found my own pictures on the internet and used your cards. We each wrote for 3 minutes. No complaining and griping so I was happy! My daughter selected the card about a movie poster and came up with some pretty creative writing. 

And just like every time I do a writing assignment with my daughter, I was reminded of how hard it is to sit and write...even for only 3 minutes. 

Yay yay yay! 👍

I'm so pleased 😊

[Skippy]

On 9/26/2019 at 2:35 PM, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I'd be thrilled to know they are being used

Your material was submitted as ideas for helping reluctant writers, but I used it yesterday with my daughter who loves writing. She loved it. We used your writing prompt cards along with a Big Picture Apples to Apples game which includes hundreds of picture cards. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

2 hours ago, Skippy said:

Your material was submitted as ideas for helping reluctant writers, but I used it yesterday with my daughter who loves writing. She loved it. We used your writing prompt cards along with a Big Picture Apples to Apples game which includes hundreds of picture cards. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

This makes my heart sing. I'm so pleased it's being used and enjoyed 🙂