Physics vs Engineering

[Liza Q]

My son is considering changing his plans and I thought I'd ask the Hive for some direction.

His original plan was to do his first 2 years at Brooklyn College (we live about 15m from the campus), which has a 2 year Engineering program designed specifically to lead to guaranteed admission (with good grades) to NYU's Tandon School of Engineering. It's also possible to transfer to one of the CUNYs that have an Engineering Program (City College in upper Manhattan has the better program). He considered two SUNY schools - Stony Brook and Buffalo - but really wanted to stay local. 

His Freshman year went very well. He made some friends, joined the Intervarsity Fellowship, got excellent grades, found out about the debate club and got excited to join this fall. Since he is still at home, he has been able to continue playing for our Sunday and youth services (he plays electric bass). He joined a band and just played his first professional gig - at The Bitter End (a little Mom bragging here)! Plus he also got a pt job in the neighborhood, joined a gym near school, still goes to the same yoga studio (PT for his scoliosis). He's very happy with how things are going.

Transferring to NYU (about 45m commute) is not attractive to him as he just doesn't want the debt. We're able to help him considerably with CUNY as it's inexpensive and right now he has no debt and some money in the bank. We won't borrow for him (he's our youngest and we did not borrow for our three older ones either...and we still have one at home that we are helping with a local SUNY). Anyway.

So he was planning to transfer to City College, which has an ABET-accredited engineering program and is very doable financially. He figured he'd just commute and suck it up - the commute is about an hour and 40m each way. Dorming is...less than NYU would be but still enough that he'd have to borrow. And he'd have to work less, perform less...maybe not at all as time went by. He knows the course work will just get harder.

But now that it's time to apply to transfer...he is having second thoughts. He suggested that he stay at Brooklyn College, double major in Physics and Music, and keep his church/job/band/social life/etc. But. He's concerned that a Physics major won't lead to a real job, iykwim. He was planning to major in Civil Engineering, stay in the city, and be a part time musician. Now things are up in the air and none of us are sure how to think.

So. I guess my question really is....I don't know what I am really asking! We don't know what we don't know, so it's hard for my husband and I look at this, pro/con all the options, and give our son wise advice. So any thoughts any of you have would be most welcome!!

[JanetC]

I see three, possibly four options here:

1. Go to Brooklyn college to study physics and music. Get a job that is not as an engineer afterwards. He should look into building as many computer, business, or data science skills as he can with his electives to improve his starting salary prospects, but that might be hard with the music minor taking up a lot of his elective slots.

2. Explore other more career-focused majors at Brooklyn

3. Commute to the engineering program. But, an hour and forty minute commute each way is really hard for a student. That's over three hours per day you can't study or cook or make music or do laundry...

4. Could he live on campus at the engineering program with a basic federal student loan? An hour and forty minute commute isn't bad if it's just once a week to come home for the weekends and make music and go to his usual church, and two years of the direct student loans is not a terrible burden for an engineer.

Anyway, my advice is to just keep brainstorming options for now. You don't sound like you're ready to decide yet.

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by JanetC

[catz]

Well, it depends on what his goals are.  If he really wants to work in Engineering he should suck it up and take out some loans to get that done..  Would he need to go over federal limits?  I think any undergrad degree will open doors.  But there is pretty much one path to be an engineer.  But I'd not be excited if he was making decisions just because he likes he current life and doesn't want to change it.  College goes fast.  But maybe now that he is having some success with his music, he'd like to broaden his education a bit which is a fair choice too?  Does his current school have a career/placement office?  Maybe he could walk in and chat with someone there about what he envision his life looking like for the next 5-10 years.  

I'd also be hesitant to have a 1 hr 40 minute commute one day for a college student.  That is just super life limiting.  Loans for 2 years are not (hopefully) awful though especially if he's committed to engineering.  

[8filltheheart]

I would focus on what does he want to pursue in the future. Physics and engineering have some overlap but with just a bachelor's in physics his options will be limited. Physics and electrical engineering have more overlap course-wise as an UG than civil.  But, even so, engineers and physics majors both take numerous different core courses.  Yes, he can go to grad school for engineering, but he will have wasted time and $$ bc a master's degree in engineering is going to require a lot of backward movement toward concepts he will not have covered.

if he really wants to be a civil engineer, then I would try to find a school where that can happen. If he doesn't, then he should find out what sorts of jobs his school places BS physics students in. 

[regentrude]

First: I would NEVER let a  college student waste 3+ hours out of his day on a commute. That would be an absolute no, because those are three hours the student, especially with an engineering major, NEEDS to study and sleep. I cannot stress enough how this would be an absolute unacceptable deal breaker. It would also mean the student cannot participate in any evening study sessions, professional society meetings, etc - I see how disadvantaged and cut off students are even with a 40 minute commute.

Second: what does he want to do? I am the advisor for our physics department and also conduct the department tours for prospective students. There ARE jobs for physics graduates with a bachelor. Those of our grads of the past few semesters who have chosen not to attend grad school got jobs with Boeing (aircraft design), medical IT,  a big company that handles water metering, software development, and a bunch more I can't recall. It is true, however, that about two thirds of physics graduates continue to grad school (which in physics is fully funded). 

[Frances]

On 8/7/2019 at 9:30 AM, JanetC said:

I see three, possibly four options here:

1. Go to Brooklyn college to study physics and music. Get a job that is not as an engineer afterwards. He should look into building as many computer, business, or data science skills as he can with his electives to improve his starting salary prospects, but that might be hard with the music minor taking up a lot of his elective slots.

2. Explore other more career-focused majors at Brooklyn

3. Commute to the engineering program. But, an hour and forty minute commute each way is really hard for a student. That's over three hours per day you can't study or cook or make music or do laundry...

4. Could he live on campus at the engineering program with a basic federal student loan? An hour and forty minute commute isn't bad if it's just once a week to come home for the weekends and make music and go to his usual church, and two years of the direct student loans is not a terrible burden for an engineer.

Anyway, my advice is to just keep brainstorming options for now. You don't sound like you're ready to decide yet.

 

I think another option, if he’s open to it, is to stay put and major in physics and music, and then pursue a fully funded Master’s degree in engineering afterwards. A good friend of ours from grad school had two brothers and his dad was an engineering professor at a large state university. All of the boys were interested in pursuing engineering. Their dad advised them to major in physics in undergrad instead. All three did and one added an art major. That one went on to get a Master’s in Architecture and the other two got fully funded (tuition paid plus living stipend) Master’s degrees in engineering. Of course not everyone is interested in getting a Master’s degree and there’s no guarantee of acceptance, but it sounds like the OP’s son is a very strong student.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Frances

[Hoggirl]

That sounds like a long commute.  But, everyone is assuming he would be driving it.  Is this the case?  Or would he be on a train/bus?  One can study while taking public transportation. It’s not ideal - that’s a lot of commuting regardless, but the type of commuting would factor into my decision process. 

[AEC]

1) decide what you want to do.  The majority of career paths for Physics include a PhD.  Is that what he wants? If so, then choice of undergrad should be based on what will get him into the best Physics PhD program because that's the one that will actually matter.

2) if it's engineering, what kind? If it's electrical or computer/software I would seriously consider StonyBrook. It has, imo, the best reputation of the SUNY's to employeers outside the area. It is, for example, the only SUNY that Amazon directly recruits from. (if you want a job straight out of college at most of the 'big tech' co's you will need to be graduating from one of the universities they directly recruit from.  you can get a job there w/ a degree from anywhere if you've worked someplace else but they generally only recruit 'fresh-outs' from a limited set of places..it's a technique for winnowing down the massive # of applications'.

I get why everyone is super debt averse re: collect.  That said, if you're in a high-demand tech field the delta in first-year compensation from a top-tier univ vs a middle one can easily be 50k/year.  It may, or may not, eventually even out depending on job performance.  Eventually, no one looks at this and only as what you've done before or are able to do in an interview loop.  OTOH, what you did before depends in part on where you were able to land for your first job.  So it does matter.

To be clear - I am __not__ saying that there's no path for a successful engineering career unless you go to a top-tier univ.  Definately not.  I am saying that it's easier and usually more lucrative, however, from a top univ.  In fields like comp sci & EE, if you can get to the top-tier univ it's almost certainly worth the debt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I agree with @Hoggirl

Also, you cannot just look at $$ spent on college to decide which is a better option.  Pursuing a master's, even if funded, means 2 more yrs of school and 2 yrs of lost wages (though with a master's, he could make more $$,, but you'd need to factor in ncome for 2 yrs plus investment in retirement for 2 extra yrs to see how many yrs of employment it would take to make it a wash.)

Is he planning on pursuing UG research opportunities or will his free time be spent playing music? It takes more than grades to get into a phd program. I don't know about masters, but it might be something he needs to investigate. Master's may be different and only focus on GPA. 

Getting a job tends to come from experience. New grads obviously don't to have tons of work experience, but demonstrating some focus on the pursued field......research, interning, co-oping, etc all count.  He may find it harder to keep spending as much time focusing on his music the further into his degree he gets. Freshman yr is really not representative of what a major is like as an upperclassman.

[8filltheheart]

6 minutes ago, AEC said:

1) decide what you want to do.  The majority of career paths for Physics include a PhD.  Is that what he wants? If so, then choice of undergrad should be based on what will get him into the best Physics PhD program because that's the one that will actually matter.

2) if it's engineering, what kind? If it's electrical or computer/software I would seriously consider StonyBrook. It has, imo, the best reputation of the SUNY's to employeers outside the area. It is, for example, the only SUNY that Amazon directly recruits from. (if you want a job straight out of college at most of the 'big tech' co's you will need to be graduating from one of the universities they directly recruit from.  you can get a job there w/ a degree from anywhere if you've worked someplace else but they generally only recruit 'fresh-outs' from a limited set of places..it's a technique for winnowing down the massive # of applications'.

I get why everyone is super debt averse re: collect.  That said, if you're in a high-demand tech field the delta in first-year compensation from a top-tier univ vs a middle one can easily be 50k/year.  It may, or may not, eventually even out depending on job performance.  Eventually, no one looks at this and only as what you've done before or are able to do in an interview loop.  OTOH, what you did before depends in part on where you were able to land for your first job.  So it does matter.

To be clear - I am __not__ saying that there's no path for a successful engineering career unless you go to a top-tier univ.  Definately not.  I am saying that it's easier and usually more lucrative, however, from a top univ.  In fields like comp sci & EE, if you can get to the top-tier univ it's almost certainly worth the debt.

I know absolutely nothing about civil engineering. It seems like a different beast than many other engineering fields. But, $50,000 for a brand new engineering grad seems low, not good. My ds made close to that as a co-op student and as a new grad made significantly more and this was almost a decade ago. More importantly, all new hires were paid the same amt regardless of where they went to school. (My ds went to a non-ranked school and was hired in alongside grads from Michigan, Purdue, Berkeley, etc.) Getting offers was not limited to on-campus recruiting. But getting offers was directly related to strength of resume beyond grades.

That last sentence is where I see a disconnect between the OP's plan and would have concern about real life outcomes more than anything else. Having music as a focus limits time for other pursuits. Planning an engineering or physics career around just school coursework vs experiences that lead to post-graduation employment/grad school is not a path I would want my kids to take. Those field related experiences can be huge time commitments. My kids have spent 18 hrs a week on UG research on campus, summers at REUs, 12months co-oping, etc. It has been those experiences on top of GPA/coursework that have made the difference in their post-BS outcomes. 

I would encourage my student to work through schedules to see if they can in reality juggle it all....coursework, music, and field related experiences or is something going to suffer. If so, which one? Maybe knowing what he doesn't want to let go of will help clarify what it is he really wants to pursue vs trying to keep his foothold on all options.

[Lanny]

I haven't read the previous replies. I read the OP.  There was mention of ABET accreditation for an Engineering program. That IMO is a MUST and I would forget any program that is not ABET accredited. 

Dual Major in Physics and Music? No comment but from other threads Music seems to be pretty intensive.  Getting a B.S. degree in Engineering or Physics is extremely intensive.

Now, to get down to the question: If he were interested in Electrical Engineering or Electronic Engineering or even something like Computer Science, A solid Physics education (B.S. degree) would prepare him for the jobs.  After someone has some experience, they are usually pretty flexible about what degree one has.  It is the experience that matters more than the degree.  The emails I receive from Recruiters, usually the hiring manager doesn't have the education in concrete, because they are looking for experience and ability to do the job.

However, Civil Engineering is a stretch and I know people who are Civil Engineers and there are specific professional licensing things (Professional Engineer) in most or all U.S. States and PR. ;  I know someone with that licensing.   So, if he wants to go into Civil Engineering, I would Major in that.

I had a late Uncle, who had a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering. When I was about 15 years old,  he told me that he wished that he had studied Physics instead of Electrical Engineering. I think because it gives a broader outlook?

Good luck to your DS with whatever he does.

[TarynB]

On 8/8/2019 at 5:30 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

I know absolutely nothing about civil engineering. It seems like a different beast than many other engineering fields. But, $50,000 for a brand new engineering grad seems low, not good. My ds made close to that as a co-op student and as a new grad made significantly more and this was almost a decade ago. More importantly, all new hires were paid the same amt regardless of where they went to school. (My ds went to a non-ranked school and was hired in alongside grads from Michigan, Purdue, Berkeley, etc.) Getting offers was not limited to on-campus recruiting. But getting offers was directly related to strength of resume beyond grades.

I think AEC was saying that the difference in starting salary between a grad from a top-tier school vs a middle-tier school can be 50k/year, not that one would be starting out making 50k/year. (She said the "delta" between them.)

(Removed other commentary that was too revealing.)

Edited August 11, 2019 by TarynB

[...................]

Out of these options, I think he should dorm at the City College ABET engineering program.  Though it'll cost 10k a year, that is still a 60K savings over NYU!  Don't let things be all or nothing.  It's great that he's rethinking finances, but changing course completely right now probably isn't a good idea.

 He will always have music and he can always enjoy music.  Being able to support himself with his engineering degree will benefit him FOR LIFE, and it's very hard to go back to school once you've left.  

So, I would say go for the middle road.  Graduating with an ABET degree with only 20K worth of debt is very reasonable!

 

[Liza Q]

I'm compiling all your comments so we can look at the bigger picture. Thanks so much!!

@FuzzyCatzI told him what you said about "making decisions just because he likes he current life and doesn't want to change it" and it hit home. He doesn't want to dorm OR commute - he likes his cushy life at home. He likes having plenty of time to rehearse and room in his bedroom - that he doesn't have to share - for his equipment and Mom who cooks and does wash!

@regentrude What does he want to do? He doesn't know. He does know that he wants to use math every day. He knows he has much to to learn but proofs don't excite him.  He is interested in how the city works. He doesn't want to teach. He wants to stay in NYC - lots of family and friends, hopefully lots of opportunity. He wants to graduate in 4 years and get to work. He doesn't want to be weighed down with debt.

Can't find it but someone asked about the commute - bus and 2 trains. Awful. The plan was to only transfer there if he was sure about engineering.

I want him to dorm there, give up playing at church, borrow what he needs (can't get a solid # but the cheapest  dorm price 2 years ago was 12,000, room only - there is no meal plan), drop the PT job when he finds an internship (we're aware that he will need that type of experience while still in college), live frugally, and be prepared to pay it back once he has a solid income.  My husband is against him borrowing.

Someone else mentioned Stony brook - still a possibility. If he's going to dorm, it has a better program than CCNY and will cost about the same. He's pretty horrified about living in the middle of nowhere, though - he won't even consider Buffalo!

I know I'm rambling - it seems really to come down to money. Our oldest and her husband have grad school/law school debt and it is hard for them. It seems foolhardy to accumulate undergrad debt when it may be more necessary for grad school. My husband has raised our 4 to be pretty horrified by debt so our son wants to be absolutely sure.

[Liza Q]

I should mention - he really enjoys math and Physics. He tolerated Chemistry and found intro computer programming interesting...but no love.

He thinks he will like being an Engineer because he can use math and physics and get paid to do it! Civil Engineering struck him as the most interesting of the options for engineering.

@JanetC I actually don't know how much he can borrow. I need to start researching that!!

@HeighHo What does he want to get out of college? Excellent question! I need to see if he can answer it!! Music - he wants to increase his knowledge. He thinks he will be a better musician if he knows more, not that he needs a minor or major as a credential. Kwim?

@FrancesI don't think he wants to get a masters before he is able to work full time, but it is something I hadn't considered.

@Hoggirl You were the one who asked about the commute! It's a short bus ride, a long train ride, and a short train ride, or a long train ride and then a walk. He could probably read on the train...but studying? I don't know how motivated he will be! Those rides are a drag. He takes the train all the time just to get places, not for school...but not so far north.

@AEC

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Liza Q

[Liza Q]

@AEC I know he is not thinking research/PhD. Of course, that may change. The more he knows, the more he may want to know and he may want to discover, not just use what he learns. We have considered Stony Brook...my husband has been told (he is a retired cop working in construction management and knows a few engineers from current/past projects) that internships matter more than school...as long as it it ABET accredited. It does seem to me that this is the kind of career that makes a loan more of an investment than a risk. I will show him what you wrote - thanks!

@8FillTheHeart Music, not research, is on his mind now...but we know that he needs internships, not just coursework. I want him to be free to take those, even if they are unpaid...which makes it hard if he needs to earn for tuition, forget about living expenses. Would he put his music aside to focus on engineering? He needs to think about that - good question. Thanks!

@Lanny I'm glad that you also mentioned experience/ABET - the more it is mentioned, the more I see that we need to prioritize it! My older girls got full time jobs directly from internships - very valuable. But STEM is so different and new for us! My research told me ABET accredited and a focused, not general, engineering program was what we should be looking for...nice to see that I am on the right track!

@TarynB Oh my!! I had not considered any of that - again, we don't know what we don't know. Thanks. More info for my pro/con lists!!

@Calming Tea lol - your post was very calming! That's the route I want him to take. I just need to present him with options he hasn't considered, help him count the cost and borrow with open eyes, calm (lol again!) my husband down, and let my son make a sensible decision based on facts, not emotion.

I am so glad that this board exists! I am still a homeschooler at heart - researching/organizing/synthesizing info so I can support my children and their education plans.

[8filltheheart]

@Liza Q I can share our kids' experiences. Our oldest is a chemE. He did on campus research with a professor and was pd. He also co-oped with a top chemical company. That company offered him scholarship $$ every semester after co-OP until graduation and full benefits. (This was back in the day before kids could stay on parents health insurance. The benefits allowed him to get married as an UG.) He had no obligation to work for that company upon graduation and he accepted an offer from a different company.

His experience, as well as my dh's who is also a chemE, is contrary to what TarynB shared. It may come down to field and career-type (finance vs industry) but the chemical companies they work for have well-established pay scales based on title. So if you know someone's title, you automatically know their general salary. Within the title, there is a salary range based on performance 80/90%-110/120%, depends on the corporation, and that rating also impacts bonus %. But, those aspects are based on performance reviews and new grad hires pay is pretty stagnate vs fluid. There is no huge differential in pay based on school or students they "really want." They only hire students they believe will succeed and that is based on GPA, experience (no experience means you won't receive offers), and recommendations. 

That $50,000 delta (missed the delta in my original reading) mentioned is not a real life representation of what you see in manufacturing environments. That sounds more like tech start-ups, finance, etc. If you look at MIT's posted salaries for chemEs, for example, their avg starting salary is not much different than what we have experience with. Their high ranges are most likely students who did not go into manufacturing.

In terms of physics, our ds did on campus research for no pay. Summer research, REUs, typically pay $5000 with room and board provided. He is pursuing a PhD and that was always his goal. So no info about other paths.

Edited August 10, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[TarynB]

NM

Edited August 11, 2019 by TarynB

[8filltheheart]

Hi Taryn.  I see you deleted your post, but I did read it last night.  I respect that that is your experience.  We all share based on what we know from our own real life and what my dh and ds have experienced in their careers at the 4 chemical companies they have experience with is contrary to what you have seen at the companies you have worked for.

OP, I would recommend looking at published data to help your ds sort through his decisions.  Many schools do publish data on their grads.  Here are 2 fairly diverse examples: Auburn and MIT. 

On page 6 of this pdf you can see Auburn's engineering schools grad avgs http://career.auburn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/salary-data.pdf  Note that CS majors at Auburn avg  is only $56K with a range of $54,000 - $115,000 and their chemE's avg is $81K with a range of $67,000 - $105,000.

On page 26 of this pdf you can see that MIT CS grads had an avg pay of $110K with a range of $70,000-260,000.  https://capd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/about/files/GSS2017.pdf Pg 27 shows an avg chemE pay of $71K, a median of $72K, and a range of $30,000-99,000. 

Tech definitely skews significantly higher from MIT and that $50,000+ delta is very real.

In terms of civil engineering, Auburn's published data is mean of $54,700 with a range of $42,000 to $68,000. MiT's published data is a mean of $87,667 with a median of $80,000 (no published range). So there is a larger differential in civil engineering pay than chemical.

You can have your ds research the specific schools he is considering and explore their career center data if this information is important to him.  It may not be.  Our 12th grader is considering CS as a major and post grad pay is the last thing on her mind.  She wants to live near family, commute to college, and just getting a job that allows her to stay near family is all that she cares about.  If it means making 1/2 the income of another school's grad, she would say, "whatever."  $$ is not what motivates her.  With your ds's primary interest in music, he may have the same sort of mentality.

Good luck to him in making his decisions.

Edited August 11, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[TarynB]

5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Hi Taryn.  I see you deleted your post, but I did read it last night.  I respect that that is your experience.  We all share based on what we know from our own real life and what my dh and ds have experienced in their careers at the 4 chemical companies they have experience with is contrary to what you have seen at the companies you have worked for.

Thanks. I deleted the content of my posts because I decided that publishing certain hiring and compensation practices here might be frowned on by some parties. 😊  I just wanted to help by offering a perspective from the other side of the hiring table, and I think of this board as a tight-knit group, but I forget sometimes that this is an open public forum.

Edited August 11, 2019 by TarynB

[chiguirre]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:34 PM, Liza Q said:

 

What does he want to do? He doesn't know. He does know that he wants to use math every day. He knows he has much to to learn but proofs don't excite him.  He is interested in how the city works. He doesn't want to teach. He wants to stay in NYC - lots of family and friends, hopefully lots of opportunity. He wants to graduate in 4 years and get to work. He doesn't want to be weighed down with debt.

This is out of left field, but maybe he'd like something like actuarial science (statistical modeling for insurance pricing). Baruch is a top 10 school and Brooklyn is top 40. There are other areas of applied math that would also have good job prospects in NYC. 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

This is out of left field, but maybe he'd like something like actuarial science (statistical modeling for insurance pricing). Baruch is a top 10 school and Brooklyn is top 40. There are other areas of applied math that would also have good job prospects in NYC. 

It is funny you said that.  I have a B.S. in Physics and a Masters in Material Science.  In my current industry, I have worked with actuaries and I think I missed my calling.  To be one, you have to test well (which I do).   

One thing I noticed studying Physics, is that there seems to be a continuum from Mechanics, i.e. Auto Mechanic to Theoretical Math (meaning imaginary constructs).   In Engineering, that is a more practical side that isn't far from straight Mechanics, and then there is the research side which isn't far from Applied Physics, then farther down the theoretical line is Theoretical Physics, which is mostly Math.  Math has its real side and its theoretical side.  So, maybe have him think where on that line he is more comfortable.