Mental Load

[Shoeless]

I believe that mental load is a thing.  I just don't believe that a reasonable solution to this problem is for women to cry "I shouldn't have to say anything about it!",  and silently stew about how unfair life is.

I've never had a problem resolve by saying nothing and angrily waiting for someone else to notice I'm burdened and upset.  That's magical thinking.

[unsinkable]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

Ffs, people, here's how the wife post surgery thing could have looked if her dh wasn't an ass:

Wife in bath.

Dh knocks at door (before the kids do!) : hey hon, I'm getting pizza for the kids and I - I thought I'd get you pasta, that OK with you ?

Wife in bath: Yes, that's fine, thanks.

That's what carrying the mental load for your wife, when she has asked you to, because surgery, looks like. 

How It Would Go In My House, a fictional portrayal

DH, knocks on door: How's your ass? Are you hungry? I think you should eat even if you aren't hungry.

Me: I am not eating. I am afraid to poop. Don't get me anything.

DH: But is your ass OK now?

Me: It feels like someone roto-rootered me down there.

DH; OK, Im leaving.

Me, yelling be he is walking away: At least say you are sorry bc my ass feels roto-rootered!

DH, 20 minutes later, knocks on door: I got you a milkshake.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

My friend had hemmorhoid/plus additional in that area surgery.  Before her surgery, she told her husband, "I need you to take care of food for everyone after the surgery.  I don't care if you cook, takeout, whatever, I don't care, I just need you to take care of it so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."

After surgery, friend is soaking in tub.  Daughter knocks on door and asks what's they are doing for dinner.  She says, ask your father.  A few minutes later, husband knocks on door.  "What do you want for dinner?"  Friend says, "Whatever you want, just take care of it."  He goes away.  A few minutes later comes back and says, "Did you decide what you want for dinner."  My friend, soaking in tub and in pain, says, "I said just take care of it, I don't care."  A few minutes later he comes back again and says, "is pizza okay?"  The funny/not funny part of this is that they have been married 10 years+, and my friend does not like pizza.  She never orders pizza, she only gets it when there is a gathering or something where everyone wants pizza.  But of course at this point she says, "Fine."  She will eat the pizza.  Later she is a bit cranky and he says, "Why are you cranky, I'm taking care of everything like you asked."  And the thing is, he really thought he was.  He was willing to provide the work, but was either incapable or unwilling to bear the mental load of the work.  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.  

 

lol... this I can relate to.  I came home from one particular hospital birth after four days to find that dh had been cooking for himself.  Washing up... not so much!  

But he is mostly better about this stuff now.  And I don’t have little kids anymore so I’m able to catch up later if needed.

[Carrie12345]

I’ve tried writing about 5 times now, but clearly the only possibilities are that my husband is an ass or I’m obnoxious.

Whatever. Mental/emotional load is real and it’s driving me insane. We’re a family of 7 with no babies and everyone is over the age of 8. The idea that I should think for 7 people is ridiculous.

[Bluegoat]

15 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I am nervous about nothing. About the only thing dh did that I didn't, before he got sick, was take out the bins. I worked that out pretty quick.

This thread kind of sucks in that other women are denying that anyone ever experiences an unfair mental load, and that if they do, it's their own fault.

 

 

 

I don't know that that is what is going on.  I think people get shafted. Also, sometimes people just have too much to do and it isn't really anyone's fault.

I also think people often don't manage this kind of problem well, and that's often why it is such a problem. Lady in the article being a good example. 

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

She couldn't possibly have meant she did not want to think at all about the food she was putting into her mouth.  The back-and-forth was them clarifying exactly what she did mean.

He asked what SHE wanted.  If he was going on asking what each of the kids was allowed to eat, where he should order from, how to find the phone #, etc., then I could see the problem.  He took care of all the details other than checking her preference.  Yet instead of appreciating that, she finds fault in his consideration for her.  OK fine - but how can it be said that he didn't take on the mental load?  He probably gave it a lot more thought than her normal, since it was a new responsibility for him.  But let's make fun as if he is an idiot..

 

She told him she didn't want to be asked about it.  And the first time she answered, I don't care.  He came back two other times.

No one is saying he is an idiot.  He is exactly not an idiot.  The point is why can he not apply the same intelligence and capability he regularly exercises in other parts of his life to something his wife is asking him to do.  

[Ausmumof3]

47 minutes ago, SKL said:

So when you do ask him if he has something he would like to eat, does he get huffy and whine to his friends and say "can you believe that she asked me about dinner?  As if I don't have enough to worry about!"

I think it’s different when you’re in pain and tired and cranky.  Although to be fair to the dh even in hospital you have to fill out a menu request if you want to eat the next day. 

I known I get occasional migraines and at that point I do not want to be asked about anything at all whatsoever.   Put a cup of tea and toast by my bed but do not under any circumstances talk to me, turn the light on, bang the door or let a child in the room.  If you do I will probably throw up the painkiller I just took and this thing will go on another hour or two.

i think generally speaking he was trying to be considerate ( i mean eating pizza after haemorrhoid surgery sounds like a really bad idea) but he did ignore her request.  Get food and don’t ask me about it.  

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

When you have two parents, and one of them is doing 99% of the mental load, despite explicitly and specifically asking for help, it's someone's fault all right, and that  just happens to be the bloke who apparently lives in a world where male ineptitude outside the workplace seems to be excused ?

And the longer it goes on, the harder it is to avoid falling into the role of shrew.

Look, I chose a lifestyle where I did pretty much expect to handle somewhere in the 70-80% range of the physical and mental work. Dh had long hours and long commutes. Kids were little.  Not anymore. How in the world that got up to 95-99% is a mystery to me.  And I am not one to pretend to ignore things.  So, when I react like a lunatic to some puddly little thing, it’s only after years and years AND YEARS of pointing things out.

My family genuinely does not get it. I truly believe that 5 out of 7 of them have tried. I’m convinced there’s a particular wire missing in their brains. The temptation to crack their skulls open and find out is under control... for now.

[Ausmumof3]

33 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I am nervous about nothing. About the only thing dh did that I didn't, before he got sick, was take out the bins. I worked that out pretty quick.

This thread kind of sucks in that other women are denying that anyone ever experiences an unfair mental load, and that if they do, it's their own fault.

 

 

Yes true we can all really only accurately comment on our own marriage or situation.

[EmseB]

19 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

To be clear, I wasn't angry the kids weren't dressed, just surprised.  I wasn't angry till he said "you didn't text me to remind me."  

Why would I care if the kids do the chores before I am home?  In part because I need an empty trash can when I put the groceries away because all the little bits of packaging and stuff need a place to go.  And also in part because if it's not done by the time I get home, it's frequently one more I have to manage/do when I get home.

He doesn't leave me a list of to dos before he goes to work because.........................he doesn't know what the to-dos are.  He's not thinking about them at all.  

The point I think that these are just things of life. It would be awesome if I lived with people who emptied the garbage without me asking or double checking chores, but it would also be awesome if I didn't slack off and spend too much time on my phone during the day or forget where I put that important paper or whatever. I can understand the frustration more if it's always one partner messing up and leaving slack. I'm sorry for people who have to live a life of constantly minding and prodding another adult. That has to suck.

From my point of view, if my husband was upset about me not having the kids dressed, I wouldn't blame him for not reminding me, but I might ask, "Shoot! What did you need them dressed for? What did I forget?" It would not enter my mind to get them dressed to unload groceries. Which is interesting to me because IRL I always ask the kids to come unload the groceries for me, but I wouldn't be peeved if they weren't dressed to do so. And I wouldn't expect the garbage to be emptied for my use after a store trip. Not saying you're wrong for expecting that, but just to maybe offer consulation that there other people in the world that this might not occur to.

 

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I am nervous about nothing. About the only thing dh did that I didn't, before he got sick, was take out the bins. I worked that out pretty quick.

This thread kind of sucks in that other women are denying that anyone ever experiences an unfair mental load, and that if they do, it's their own fault.

 

I don't think the problem with the lady in the OP's article is that she's experiencing an unfair share of thinking about stuff in her household. I can't speak for anyone else except myself. I have offered my experience and perspective to say that maybe it's not man vs. woman, but personality and expectation dependent. I don't deny that it does happen because I've seen it happen. I don't know how to reconcile my sympathy for a guy who doesn't get his kids dressed, chores done, and garbage empty for when his wife comes home from the grocery store and also say perhaps that is a legit gripe in their home and I just don't understand the totality of the situation. What I know is that if my husband put those expectations *on me* I'd be resentful and defeated really quickly. I can't imagine it, tbh. But if I literally did nothing to provide for the household or required constant parenting by my spouse to do even basic things, then maybe I do need a swift kick in the behind. It's not that I don't think it happens or deny anyone's experience, but I am discussing and offering my own as a counterpoint to maybe explain why things might happen in a certain way in certain people's brains and it isn't just men.

[Pen]

My father deliberately did a bad job on things not to be asked again.  He said so himself.

Turns out he wasn’t alone: 

Can’t link today.  But there was an article in Telegraph UK that a survey showed 30% of men admitted to doing this.

 

[Ausmumof3]

The other side of this is I think socially we have very much reduced our expectations about kids taking responsibility for stuff.  For example when I read smart but scattered it really surprised me how many parents were nagging and reminding kids to do homework.  When I was in high school this was on me.  Do homework or don’t do homework but it was assumed that at 13 or 14 I could be responsible for that decision and deal with the consequences.  It also was just expected that I’d dry dishes and help with the kitchen until tea was done.  I wasn’t the most responsible kid but the expectation was if it’s your job you do it and deal with the fallout if you don’t.  

I do try to share the load with my kids a bit.  Like if we are going to the library I will ask them to log on to their cards, check for overdue books and round them up.  Sometimes when I seriously don’t want to decide about food I will menu plan by asking everyone for one favourite meal.  None of our stuff requires any super complicated ingredients.

i also have put in a significant amount of time to setting up apps and chore lists to automate stuff.  This definitely is part of the mental load but I don’t work outside the home so it seems reasonable that I should take responsibility for that side of the thing. 

My dh is reasonably competent at picking up the slack if necessary though.  I can see being resentful if he wasn’t.

edited to add

and lastly I just suck at some of this stuff.  Birthdays for anyone that doesn’t live under my roof may or may not get remembered.  Bills mostly get paid on time.  If you lost your stuff and I know where it is I’ll tell you but if I’m in the middle of something and you’re having a crisis bevause you lost your shoes or keys, that’s not my crisis.  I may or may not remember to actually get the washing out the machine and put it on the line.  I do try to make sure everything that depends on me for actual survival gets food and water.  If I need the bin and it didn’t get emptied I either yell for the kid whose job it is, do it myself or pile the stuff on top of the overflowing bin.  When said kid complains about the emptying I point out that it wouldn’t be so hard if he’d done it when it needed doing.

i do think this stuff is worse when both people work full time and have school schedules etc to deal with.  

I dont think it’s some giant thing that no one ever realised that it takes mental work to run a house.  Heck it was acknowledged way back in prov 31 that “she rules her household well” or something like that.  Housekeeper was considered a kind of employment for years.  To some degree it’s feminism that said “housekeeping is boring and stupid and mental unstimulating and we all need mentally challenging work”.   Prior to that managing a house was seen as a job someone had to do.  The fact that it always fell on women was a problem but acknowledging that it had to be done and giving it some level of respect wasn’t.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ausmumof3

[EmseB]

12 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So, lets say that every single week for several years, your DH takes his car to get washed in the morning, comes home and then takes the kids to a movie.  Every single week.  For years.  Lets say like 3 years....so that's like 150 car washes and movies.  And still, on Saturday number 151, it would never enter your mind that your kids might need to know where their shoes are before Daddy gets home from the car wash?  He would walk in the door and you would be all "shoot, why did they need their shoes again?  What did I forget about this afternoon?"

No, I think I specifically said if there was somewhere we had to be at a certain time after I went shopping I'd have different expectations than to find everyone in their PJs. But I really don't care if people aren't to-the-shoes ready to unload groceries because I come in and say, "go get the groceries and put them away, please," and everyone laces up, coats on, whatever they need to do and goes out and does it while I get a glass of water and chill in the recliner.

If you're dealing with another adult that truly can't manage a routine outing on the same day every week that always needs everyone dressed and ready to leave by a certain time and they literally can't or won't manage to do it, that is a different kettle of fish than what I'm talking about and would indeed be frustrating, to say the least. I don't deny this happens but it was very much not what I was talking about in the example.

ETA: again, I'm not saying your expectations are wrong. I was offering my specific experience to say it is not just your DH or even a man who might do something like that. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by EmseB

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

About the husband being asked to take over the food.  I understand that could be frustrating, but I don't think it's an unusual scenario when someone is doing something newish.  I know I've occasionally taken a job when dh is away, and found, when I went to do it, that I was actually clueless about the thing, not even knowing what had to be done or where to find the things I needed, or that I hadn't done some necessary previous step.  

I can see that, but he obviously put no thought whatsoever into this responsibility that he *took on*.  That’s inconsiderate at best.

Also, how the heck does he not know what his wife likes to eat?  That’s high level clueless.  Although, my husband is totally like that, and it doesn’t generally bother me.  He sort of projects his taste onto me, like ‘someday she will realize that teriyaki is truly the perfect Japanese flavor’ or ‘someday she will really understand how great breakfast sausage is’.  We joke about it.  But if I had surgery I would totally make a list before hand, and it might even have a funny title like “Things you might (should) have noticed that I like to eat, that would be good to make me without talking about it first”.  Again, this doesn’t usually bother me, but when I am really fried sometimes I say, ‘my decision making brain is DONE, and I don’t want to talk about what to eat or where to eat.  I need you to figure out something you know I like and make it, or just let me get myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and hibernate for a while.’  And I really need this, and I really mean it.  That story was about someone being at that point after surgery, which I totally sympathize with.

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The other side of this is I think socially we have very much reduced our expectations about kids taking responsibility for stuff.  For example when I read smart but scattered it really surprised me how many parents were nagging and reminding kids to do homework.  

 

Yes.

 Though I think Smart but Scattered is dealing with a subset of kids who have EF troubles.  

 

 

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I do try to share the load with my kids a bit.

 

I took an approach of not signing dc up for sports etc..   aI realized I was feeling overwhelmed and resentful — but could greatly decrease this by limiting what I was trying to take care of.  And limiting time and energy going toward “activities”.  

 

 

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

i also have put in a significant amount of time to setting up apps and chore lists to automate stuff.  This definitely is part of the mental load but I don’t work outside the home so it seems reasonable that I should take responsibility for that side of the thing. 

 

I have also been doing this since I got a Smartphone 

I also have been using Cozi which allows family to use same shopping lists, chore lists, etc.  

 

 

[SKL]

So this discussion reminds me of the story my mom told of when she was in the hospital having my sister.  This was back when you stayed in the hospital for 4 or 5 days after childbirth.

The 3 older kids (ages just-2, 3, and 5) were with an aunt.  My mom had a bag packed prior to going to the hospital with clothes and diapers to take to the aunt with the kids.  My dad forgot to take the bag of stuff to aunt's house.

My aunt (dad's sister) kept calling my mom in the hospital to remind her that she didn't have any diapers and was using dish towels instead.

My mom was like, please tell your brother.  The bag is packed and ready at home.

I asked my mom, well did remind Dad?  She said no.  That much they should have been able to figure out without her when she was in the hospital.

Ah, the good old days ....

[Carol in Cal.]

25 minutes ago, Pen said:

My father deliberately did a bad job on things not to be asked again.  He said so himself.

Turns out he wasn’t alone: 

Can’t link today.  But there was an article in Telegraph UK that a survey showed 30% of men admitted to doing this.

 

Oh my goodness, that reminds me of the coffee table fairy movie.  One of the funniest shorts ever.  

[SKL]

20 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So, lets say that every single week for several years, your DH takes his car to get washed in the morning, comes home and then takes the kids to a movie.  Every single week.  For years.  Lets say like 3 years....so that's like 150 car washes and movies.  And still, on Saturday number 151, it would never enter your mind that your kids might need to know where their shoes are before Daddy gets home from the car wash?  He would walk in the door and you would be all "shoot, why did they need their shoes again?  What did I forget about this afternoon?"

ETA: but again, so that I am clear, I was *surprised* that they weren't dressed not upset.  Surprised because.....after some 150+ weekly grocery trips, it's not like it's some new fangled thing.  It's regular.  Weekly.   Yes, I was surprised that after 150+ trips, it wouldn't enter his mind or that he could possibly forget that the kids unload when I get home.  Just like they did the week before, and the week before that and the week before that and the week before that....................yada yada yada    (it also happens to be something that isn't worth being upset about.........which is why I wasn't upset.  You know, until he said I hadn't reminded him.)

I would have thought they could just pull on some outer clothes asap when you got home.  That's what I would do.  😛

If I need people to be ready to go out when I get home, I do let them know in advance - in fact I have to make somewhat of a fuss to make sure people are actually listening and registering what I am saying.  If it's really really really important and time-sensitive, I might make them get dressed before I leave.

But then - I am a single mom, so the buck stops here no matter what.

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Oh my goodness, that reminds me of the coffee table fairy movie.  One of the funniest shorts ever.  

 

This?  https://www.yourdaysout.com/news/video-proof-that-men-think-women-are-cleaning-fairies-1611

 

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I can see that, but he obviously put no thought whatsoever into this responsibility that he *took on*.  That’s inconsiderate at best.

Also, how the heck does he not know what his wife likes to eat?  That’s high level clueless.  Although, my husband is totally like that, and it doesn’t generally bother me.  He sort of projects his taste onto me, like ‘someday she will realize that teriyaki is truly the perfect Japanese flavor’ or ‘someday she will really understand how great breakfast sausage is’.  We joke about it.  But if I had surgery I would totally make a list before hand, and it might even have a funny title like “Things you might (should) have noticed that I like to eat, that would be good to make me without talking about it first”.  Again, this doesn’t usually bother me, but when I am really fried sometimes I say, ‘my decision making brain is DONE, and I don’t want to talk about what to eat or where to eat.  I need you to figure out something you know I like and make it, or just let me get myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and hibernate for a while.’  And I really need this, and I really mean it.  That story was about someone being at that point after surgery, which I totally sympathize with.

Maybe I'm weird, but I am the kind of picky where I like a food today but I don't want it again for another month.  It depends on my mood.

I really just think the guy didn't realize his wife really didn't want anything to say about the meal.  That is very out of his experience.  Asking a couple questions before committing to a meal does not sound to me like "putting no thought whatsoever" into the responsibility.   If a guy told his wife "I would like spaghetti for dinner" and his wife provided it, would it be fair to say wife "put no thought whatsoever" into the meal?

It is also possible he didn't remember her exact words when she said "don't ask me anything, I don't want to think about it at all."  Likely his mind was on a bunch of more important things at that moment.

[Carol in Cal.]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

It is also possible he didn't remember her exact words when she said "don't ask me anything, I don't want to think about it at all."  Likely his mind was on a bunch of more important things at that moment.

Illustrating the subtext of the whole thing—the guy thinking that what the wife works at day in and day out is not really important, and in fact is pretty much beneath him.

[Ausmumof3]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

If their PJs had been pants and a long sleeved shirt, that might have worked.  They were nighshirts, which didn't go past their knees and had short sleeves, and it was below freezing lol.  

Having said that, in our house, no one goes outside in PJs.  This is also not some new thing to anyone living here lol.   It wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened, but it just doesn't.  

I forget about the weather thing.  I was trying to figure out why the heck they couldn’t just unload the car in PJs but we don’t get that kinda cold.

[Carol in Cal.]

20 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

This?  https://www.yourdaysout.com/news/video-proof-that-men-think-women-are-cleaning-fairies-1611

 

Bingo!  One of my favorite movies EVER.

Right up there with Mom My Ride.  And Business Time.

[Shoeless]

17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So, lets say that every single week for several years, your DH takes his car to get washed in the morning, comes home and then takes the kids to a movie.  Every single week.  For years.  Lets say like 3 years....so that's like 150 car washes and movies.  And still, on Saturday number 151, it would never enter your mind that your kids might need to know where their shoes are before Daddy gets home from the car wash?  He would walk in the door and you would be all "shoot, why did they need their shoes again?  What did I forget about this afternoon?"

ETA: but again, so that I am clear, I was *surprised* that they weren't dressed not upset.  Surprised because.....after some 150+ weekly grocery trips, it's not like it's some new fangled thing.  It's regular.  Weekly.   Yes, I was surprised that after 150+ trips, it wouldn't enter his mind or that he could possibly forget that the kids unload when I get home.  Just like they did the week before, and the week before that and the week before that and the week before that....................yada yada yada    (it also happens to be something that isn't worth being upset about.........which is why I wasn't upset.  You know, until he said I hadn't reminded him.)

 

In my household, I'd expect my husband to tell me what time the afternoon movie was starting, so I'd know when to get the kids ready.  If he didn't volunteer the information, I would ask him before he left.  If he left without telling me his plans, then nope, I would not have shoes on the kids when he walked in the door.  Not because I'm spiteful or lazy, but because I'd think "He normally tells me what the plan is.  Since he didn't tell me what the plan is, the plan must have changed".   Even if he did the same thing every single week for 3 years, I'd still either a) ask what he needs from me or b) wait for him to tell me what he needs.  If he asked why everyone wasn't ready, I would honestly say "I didn't know that you were still going to the movies.  You didn't tell me the plan".

I suspect this answer makes me a jerk, lol.

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

In your first post you say "what the wife wants shouldn't be a guessing game."  In the example of the lady who had surgery, she clearly expressed exactly what she wanted "to not think about it or be asked about it."  And yet, still the guy doesn't realize what she really wanted, even though she clearly said so?  She didn't make him guess, she said it.   So is she supposed to play a guessing game about what he really does realize every time she tells him what she wants?

Those are two separate concerns.  Obviously communication between husband and wife is much more complex than "speak clearly."  Though it's a good start.

[Pen]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

Bingo!  One of my favorite movies EVER.

Right up there with Mom My Ride.  And Business Time.

 

Off to search for those!

 

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Illustrating the subtext of the whole thing—the guy thinking that what the wife works at day in and day out is not really important, and in fact is pretty much beneath him.

Well I was thinking he was concerned about her going in for surgery, and all the bigger things he has to worry about solo parenting (which he is not used to) while she is in the hospital.  Also possibly whatever is going on at work while he is away.  Among other things.

Yes, I can think of many things more important than remembering "after wife is out of the hospital, not only am I to get the meals, but I am not allowed to speak to her about said meals."

[unsinkable]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Bingo!  One of my favorite movies EVER.

Right up there with Mom My Ride.  And Business Time.

*business socks* LOL

Adding:

Man Cold

[Carol in Cal.]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Off to search for those!

 

You won’t be sorry!

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I would think that "what does my wife want and need after surgery" would be one of those important things.  And he didn't even have to think about that, cause she told him.  She said-I want you to take over all of XYZ, so that I don't have to think about it..

Well OK, I guess I am just an idiot, since I am the only person who does not realize that asking your wife what she wants for dinner is a crime against humanity.

Thank God I wasn't born male.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SKL

[Carol in Cal.]

7 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

*business socks* LOL

Adding:

Man Cold

Yes, definitely!  (Maybe this needs its own thread.)

[Carol in Cal.]

Just now, SKL said:

Well OK, I guess I am just an idiot since I am the only person who does not realize that asking your wife what she wants for dinner is a crime against humanity.

Thank God I wasn't born male.

You know what?  You lack empathy.  You apparently don’t understand how utterly wearing living with this kind of thing can be, day in and day out.

[SKL]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

You know what?  You lack empathy.  You apparently don’t understand how utterly wearing living with this kind of thing can be, day in and day out.

Correct!  I have no idea what it's like to ever ask another person to even try to take even one iota of it off of my shoulders.  Seriously.

But when someone does offer to step up when I am having a really rough time (it happens rarely), I don't notice everything they did wrong.

I guess I should be glad I never married.

[EmseB]

41 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's not so much that I *EXPECT* the kids to be "to the shoes ready" the moment I walk in the door.  It's just really surprising that it *still* wouldn't occur to DH, after 150+ grocery shopping trips that they might need to be out of their pjs before I get home at 2 in the afternoon.  It's not that he can't manage to dress his children, it's that he still can't manage to think ahead about it.  And, again, it's not so much that I am upset.  It does make sense that most of the mental load of managing the house falls on me. 

So I'm beating a dead horse, I know, this is just a really helpful example for me to illustrate what I'm trying (poorly) to say. And I was initially responding thinking you said you got upset or were peeved at him, so apologies for blowing it out of proportion.

In my house I am the grocery getter who is asking the kids to come out an unload at least once per week and what I'm saying is that this would not occur to me for the bolded to be a requirement for my kids when I got home. I don't understand why they should be out of their PJs. If I was living with you, I don't think I would ever understand why you that would be necessary. As a spouse who would possibly leave the kids in their PJs in that exact situation I would never understand why someone would take that as me ignoring their mental load because to me it literally makes no difference if the kids are out of their PJs or not. So that is the type of thing where *I think* the spouse who wants the kids dressed could just let it go. I don't think a spouse is a shrew for wanting that, but if it is on a list of things they count as a burden for them to worry about, then just...don't worry about it. "Hey, kids, get some real clothes on and help me bring the groceries in." *puts feet up* lol.

Kids' mental health issues, being present as a parent, household sanitation, car maintenance, changing diapers, managing bills, doctor's appointment, etc. are all a huge mental and physical load for someone to manage and they have to be done, non-negotiable. I think it is well and truly hard to carry that as one person. I do it when my DH deploys and it sucks. It would sick even worse if I had to do it all while he was here, I get that. But I also try to examine where my stress, irritation, and getting shrill with people (just commenting on my own behavior here not anyone else!) is over an expectation that I can let go of and lift a burden off myself so that I am not stressed. 

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

SKL, you are a busy person, but you clearly don't have experience with the fatigue a person who has just had a surgical procedure is experiencing.  Consider volunteering in a hospital or nursing home so that you can understand why this lady has no headspace to deal with more.  And count your blessings that you haven't had these experiences of having more laid on you when you need to rest from surgery.  Its not the same thing as having a full plate where other people can take tasks.

How would you know that?

I've never known anyone who couldn't handle the question "what would you like to eat" after being discharged from the hospital.

Anyhoo ... this is way off the topic.  In the OP, the crisis was mother's day, not surgery.

[unsinkable]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

How would you know that?

I've never known anyone who couldn't handle the question "what would you like to eat" after being discharged from the hospital.

Anyhoo ... this is way off the topic.  In the OP, the crisis was mother's day, not surgery.

well, I think you should get your LPN...no, your RN...no, no, no, wait! Your BSN. And then go into management. And then people can say, "You're management! You have to go back to the basics and get some hands-on experience."

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Nope! When I had my last kid I wrote "anything but strawberries" across the top and they brought me a tray of food every day. I'm allergic to strawberries. 

Well that was nice.  Even in the fancy private hospital I had to fill in a meal request and if I didn’t - there was biscuits and coffee. 

Though that is the same hospital that prescribed penicillin even though it clearly stated on the form I’m allergic.

[SKL]

As a single mom, I plan my hospital visits based on when my kids' school bus drops them off.  I worry the whole time what would happen if I got admitted.  I refuse to be admitted against the doctor's recommendation.  I hide the whole thing from my kids so they don't have to worry about being left alone in the world.  I pray and update my will.  And I deal with what's for dinner.

I do understand mental load.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SKL

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Well OK, I guess I am just an idiot, since I am the only person who does not realize that asking your wife what she wants for dinner is a crime against humanity.

Thank God I wasn't born male.

In the context of post surgery and pain.  Context is important.

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

First paragraph-No problem, it really is a bit of an interesting discussion, even in getting into nitty gritty picky little details lol.

On the second paragraph-thing about being out of pjs is.....kids unload every week.  Kids are out of pjs to unload every week.  Even if you didn't understand it, if you were seeing it every single time 150+ weeks in a row, I find it really hard to believe that time 151 would come as a surprise.  Let it go?  Sure, I totally do.  As I said, I wasn't upset.  I might spend a split second in my head thinking "seriously, why didn't he think about it ahead of time" but like I said, it's not actually worth being upset about so I would just send the kids to get clothes on and we move on.  I totally would let it go.  I wouldn't hold a grudge on it or anything.  I wasn't upset until he made it out like it was my job to remind him.

 

As to the last paragraph, that is kind of pointing to what I said earlier about it not being about X thing, or Y thing, or Z thing....rather it's ALL of it, that starts to add up all together.  That's when it starts to become a big (and uneven) mental load.  Over time, A little thing + B little thing + C little thing + D little thing becomes ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. (so I had to retype the alphabet like 7 times lol)

We are talking a little bit past each other because at the 151st time I would expect they would still be in their PJs when I got home and I wouldn't think to ask my DH why because apparently grocery day is pajama day, lol.

Different strokes, I guess.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

 

Y'all are setting it up so that any complaint a woman has is automatically void (because you'd personally see it a different way) and you are just! plain! wrong! 

Not quite. I think some of us (also women!) don't understand certain complaints because we would do what the DH did because reasons AND have acknowledged through the whole dang thread that there is a legit side to being pissed off when someone won't participate in the care and feeding of the household. I thinks it's absolutely unreasonable for a man not to be able to feed his kids without consulting his wife, but perhaps more resonable for someone who has not cooked for his family in 15 years to be a little dumbed down in that particular skill. 

 

It would be equally absurd for me to say that all y'all seem to think that every complaint a wife has about her husband being thoughtless must be correct because men will always walk over their wives. But I'm sure that's not what anyone is saying and maybe we're just all having a nice discussion about our own experiences and things that have helped lessen our own mental load and recognize the reasoning and mental load of the person on the other side of each perspective. Why can't it just be that? Please? I am sick and have nowhere else to goooo!

[SKL]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

That's wonderful.  You might want to spend time with someone having a chemo infusion and see how that affects their energy and if they appreciate that their spouse or children cover dinner so they can rest. 

Thanks, my mom had to undergo chemo and radiation after her surgery for late-stage colon cancer.  My dad asked her what she would like to eat.  She does not hold a grudge about that.

As for empathy - I'm not seeing it here for anyone except wives.  So whatever.  It's already been established that I am a misogynist kuz I think "what would you like for dinner" could be the guy thinking he was considerate.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

I am not seeing any empathy for a person who needs time to recover and follow discharge instructions after an outpatient medical procedure, asked for it in advance, and was ignored in the midst of doing her discharge instructions.   You keep bringing up examples of people who didn't need that time, which is establishing you as a person with no empathy towards someone who does need that time. I thank you though, it explains how drive-by C-sections were put into place and why exhausted cancer patients are dragging themselves in to work .....if the person I know who had the procedure didn't need it, no one else possibly could. Ka-ching. Vote no for policies that help the truly ill.

Wow, this is quite the stretch.

I am sorry the lady had to withstand the indignity of being asked what she'd like to eat, when she didn't feel up to it.  Okay?  Can I rejoin humanity now?

[SKL]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I am going to repeat, that story doesn't have anything to do with being asked "what's for dinner"

Never mind.

[EmseB]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I find that to be a bit surprising and unusual.  There's a thread in, I think the General Education forum, titled "The Blank Stare"  Its specifically a thread about being exasperated that after repeated exposure to a concept, a child still looks at the parent as if they have never seen it before in their lives.  I think it's unusual to not expect a person to have clue about XYZ after having so many exposures to it.  

So after 150 times of being exposed to the concept that being in PJs on grocery day is a thing, I'd not give a blank stare when it happened that way the 151st time I pulled in the driveway with my groceries. But I'd probably get the concept maybe closer to the 10th or 11th time. 😄

And it would not occur to me that it is an issue that they were in PJs, or part of DH's to-do list to get them dressed while I was gone (or mine if he was gone) unless we have somewhere to be soon after. I would not/do not see the need for it. It would not be on my list of mental load things taking up space in my brain. They'd still unload the groceries after taking two minutes to put on a shirt and pants.

I have to think we're talking about some different things here. I am not being deliberately obtuse when I say I don't understand what the issue really is because my kids don't need to be dressed beforehand to help me with groceries when I get home and I kinda half expect PJs if I'm out Sat morning and come home early afternoon. It is just not on my radar.

[BooksandBoys]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

That is the sort of thinking my DH doesn't do.  It barely occurs to him to plan a doctor visit around his OWN work schedule, let alone mine or the kids.  He thinks "I need to go to the doctor."  Then he finds the listing for his phone and calls.   That's where it stops.  There is no planning based on anyone else...there's barely planning based on him lol.  And generally we handle it when stuff comes up so if I have to tell him he needs to reschedule, he does it, or if I have to rearrange, I do it.  We work it out.  But that doesn't mean he did any of the thinking about it lol.  

Mine too. He schedules his stuff, on the rare occasion that he even thinks to schedule his stuff (because I don’t remind him about HIS stuff...,I have enough keeping track of my three kids and myself). He schedules his stuff when he wants to. He doesn’t think about the family schedule or my work schedule or any of it. He just figures it will all work out. 

My example of mental load: I manage all the bills/budget/etc that I possibly can because he’s never paid a bill on time on his life. Our health insurance is through his employer. Last year, first year at this job, so unpredictable timelines for the wife who manages this stuff for her family’s functioning, he didn’t forward any email reminders about open enrollment, or mention it to me at all, or do a thing. He just ignored them. I don’t receive them because it’s HIS job. We missed open enrollment because by the time it crossed my mind to wonder out loud to him when it was, it was a week after it ended. Our insurance, thankfully, auto-renewed, but we lost our access to our flexible spending account . We have a lot of medical expenses in our family, so this was a big blow, financially. When I asked him why he didn’t get us enrolled or talk to me about it or anything, he said, “You should have reminded me!” 

How, husband? How would I know? I do not receive this correspondence. You do. 

Same year, he failed to notice that his renewal due date for HIS student loans repayment was approaching, even though they were sending emails left and right (I later learned). I had made a note on the calendar when the first letter arrived in the mail (cause I manage the mail). If he misses the renewal, our payment goes up by $1000 a month. Needless to say, that can’t be absorbed by our budget. The day it was due, I asked him if I’d missed the email asking for my spousal signature on his renewal. He was all, “I didn’t know I had to do anything to renew. You should have told me.”  

Right. Because you havent had to complete a renewal application EVERY YEAR since you finished your PhD. Smart man. No mental load. EF challenges.

And just to make this story better...he almost missed the deadline for the student loans the year before too (so 2 years ago) so I had asked him to add my email to his student loans or give me access so I could remind him/help. He opted to be offended at my suggestion and refused. Thankfully, he finally learned that lesson last year and this year, I received emails too...and, oddly enough, he handled it all without a single reminder from me. I’m hopeful for future growth.

I manage almost all of the mental load, inside the house and out, food, bills, finances, medical, cleaning, cars, lawn, house care, his travel schedule and it’s inpdct on our family, his work meeting schedule and it’s impact on us, sometimes even his work requirements - because when he has more papers/grants to write, he stops being home predictably/checks out mentally more, and I work part time. My kids have special needs. My husband is much more helpful than he used to be, thank the universe and all that is in it (because he used to do his own version of the “heads or tails” when I’d ask for help, mostly refusing to do anything but sit on the couch when he was home from work), but he’s not taking on the mental load. I’m slowly but surely trying to get him to, but it takes ME pushing it. Like, I work three nights a week now, so he’s in charge of dinner. I menu plan/shop in categories. So, Tuesday is pasta night, Thursday is tacos. But he still calls me at work on pasta night every week to ask he if he should make meatballs or sausage. And every time, I tell him “it’s your choice, pick one, you’re in charge, heck I don’t even care if you make pasta. You are in charge.” Someday, I think he’ll just decide. Maybe? 

Hah! I almost forgot the time he blew up the engine in the car because he just kept ignoring his check engine and low oil lights. On a car that we knew was leaking oil, so it’s not like the problem was unknown or a surprise. After it happened, he said, “oh, I kept meaning to check the oil.” It had never occurred to me that I needed to be monitoring the status of HIS car as well as mine. You better believe I (discretely) monitor his car health now. 

[Pen]

31 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, since we are all wives here.....

 

There could be some men here.

There certainly are a couple of us who are single parents, and understand carrying a mental load for family—without a husband .  

 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The other side of this is I think socially we have very much reduced our expectations about kids taking responsibility for stuff.  For example when I read smart but scattered it really surprised me how many parents were nagging and reminding kids to do homework.  When I was in high school this was on me.  Do homework or don’t do homework but it was assumed that at 13 or 14 I could be responsible for that decision and deal with the consequences.  It also was just expected that I’d dry dishes and help with the kitchen until tea was done.  I wasn’t the most responsible kid but the expectation was if it’s your job you do it and deal with the fallout if you don’t.  

I agree so much with this. Both IRL and sometimes on this board, I’m surprised by how much some parents do for their neurotypical kids. Neither mine nor my husband’s parents were ever involved with reminding or nagging us about HW at any age. Our parents would never know we had a test or a big paper or project unles we told them about it or they saw us working on it. It was just understood that school was our responsibility. They were happy to help if asked, but all of the mental load was on us. We were also responsible for remembering our own instruments and gym/sports bags and making sure we had the clean clothes to go in them. And we definitely had regular chores, both daily and weekly ones.

 

[EmseB]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

But you are assuming that the kids are never dressed when I get home.  When really, they usually are.  Either because I directed them to get dressed before I left, or because I did leave DH the list of to dos that included that task, or because the kids dressed themselves, or because I texted DH to remind him.  

I promise I'm not assuming anything. You said something about 150 times and I was riffing off of that.

My main point is that I don't know why it matters if they are dressed or not, why this is a mental load thing unless you have to dress them (like a baby/toddler). I would not expend energy texting or listing or directing people to get dressed if they didn't have to be anywhere. If they needed to go out to the car to bring in the vittles, it would take 2 mins for them to slip into clothes and go out and do that. It doesn't require prep or a list or a text or mental energy from me. That's all I'm saying.

My dad always hated when we stayed in our PJs all day but I never really understood that either if we weren't going anywhere. Ironically in all this my DH is probably the more get-dressed-look-sharp-for-the-day parent. He dislikes the kids going out in sweats or athletic pants. "Put real pants on!"

[EmseB]

Can I ask without judgement for those of you with a DH with these issues...was this something you knew about before marriage or was it hidden or did he just expect you to take everything over because you became the wife?