ChemAdvandage AP for first full-fledged online course?

[MamaSprout]

My dd has done a few online things with deadlines; a year-round middle school leadership thing through a university with 4-5 deadlines a semester, French through OnlineG3, and also some self-paced things. She's pretty organized.

I'm debating if I should I have her take an online biology class next year before attempting PA AP Chem the following year. Or could she jump into an AP or advanced chemistry course? We really, really like our flexibility, but I can see some advantages to taking biology from WTMA or Blue Tent first, too.

Thanks for sharing if you have some BTDT.

Edited February 1, 2019 by MamaSprout

[Arcadia]

DS14 took PAH AP Chem last year and DS13 is taking now. The quizzes deadlines are usually Monday. Labs has a long deadline as the instructor release the lab instructions early so that kids can plan for when to do their labs. I’m my kids “filing clerk” because my DS13 isn’t as organized and DS14 just want me to pamper him by doing it for him. The instructor has a preferred filing system and so we adhered to it. It’s an extremely structured course in that everything you are supposed to do is in the weekly schedule. 

ETA:

My kids first online course was AoPS. PAH AP Chem is the first chemistry course they took.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Arcadia

[3andme]

Arcadia -

What has been your kids experience with the time commitment for AP Chem as a first course in Chem?

 

 

[GoodGrief]

This is one of those things that will really depend on the student. Chemadvantage AP was an absolute disaster for my then-sophomore, though I really liked the teacher. I have another daughter who would have done great in it as a freshman, though we went another route. My current freshman is smart, but would not have the necessary work ethic for it.

It sounds to me like your daughter might be just fine doing it.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, 3andme said:

Arcadia -

What has been your kids experience with the time commitment for AP Chem as a first course in Chem?

 

I have a slow worker and a fast worker. My slow worker spends a day on weekly quizzes, a day on labs and half a day on videos. So easily 20hrs a week. My fast worker also spends a day for a lab, he spends a day for videos and quizzes.

What helps my oldest was pre-reading the Chang textbook during Summer. My youngest wasn’t willing to do so he had to do his first round of reading when class started which took him more time

ETA:

None lab weeks would be 8 to 12 hours.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Arcadia

[TarynB]

27 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

I have a slow worker and a fast worker. My slow worker spends a day on weekly quizzes, a day on labs and half a day on videos. So easily 20hrs a week. My fast worker also spends a day for a lab, he spends a day for videos and quizzes.

What helps my oldest was pre-reading the Chang textbook during Summer. My youngest wasn’t willing to do so he had to do his first round of reading when class started which took him more time

Whoa! I've seen others say 2 hours a day . . . and I was assuming that meant 5 days per week . . . total of 10 hours per week spent. But yours who didn't pre-read spent easily 20 hours per week? I might have to rethink my plans . . . yikes.

[Arcadia]

11 minutes ago, TarynB said:

Whoa! I've seen others say 2 hours a day . . . and I was assuming that meant 5 days per week . . . total of 10 hours per week spent. But yours who didn't pre-read spent easily 20 hours per week? I might have to rethink my plans . . . yikes.

 

None lab weeks would be 8 to 12 hours.

[TarynB]

11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

None lab weeks would be 8 to 12 hours.

Do you recall how often there are labs? Like every other week, or less than that?

[daijobu]

My dd took AP chem with Mr. M her freshman year of high school.  She had only had middle school science prior, and I think it was her first real online class.  She has excellent EF and study skills and stayed on top of the assignments, working ahead whenever possible.  There was a small cohort of students who did this, and she liked to compete with them.  My dd also wasn't shy about asking questions on the discussion board, and she asked them early and often.  Mr. M would reply very quickly, clarifying all her questions.  You really aren't getting your money's worth unless you have had many 1:1 online conversations with Mr M.  

I'm guessing it won't work for students with poor EF skills and are reluctant to ask for help publicly.  

[Arcadia]

49 minutes ago, TarynB said:

Do you recall how often there are labs? Like every other week, or less than that?

 

There was 13 labs for the entire 2017/18 academic year. It is possible to get three labs done in a weekend if you make sure you have the household items you need on hand. Things like baking soda, epsom salt, aluminum foil.

[easypeasy]

I've posted about this before, but this class kicked my kid's tail end (we had to drop it). It wasn't his first online class, but the time commitment was intense. BUT my kid doesn't *love* science and, while he actually truly enjoyed the material he was learning, he just didn't have that kind of time to dedicate to one class (he was spending waaaay over 10hr/wk. Waaaaay Over).

If it were ME, I'd certainly have my student in at least one other online learning experience before heading right into Mr. M's AP Chem. Again, the class is absolutely wonderful, organized, totally worth the $$, and Mr. M was fantastic. But, whoo boy. If this had been my kid's first online class, I think he would have had a stroke and never volunteered to take another online class ever again! 😄  As it was, he was quickly able to assess that, for whatever reason, this class was taking him a LOT longer than he had expected and he had previous online classroom experience to compare it to. This previous experience helped us a lot as we were making the decision about what to DO about it (suck it up and stick it out, or drop it before it consumed most of his year while other things fell by the wayside).

[TarynB]

46 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

I've posted about this before, but this class kicked my kid's tail end (we had to drop it). It wasn't his first online class, but the time commitment was intense. BUT my kid doesn't *love* science and, while he actually truly enjoyed the material he was learning, he just didn't have that kind of time to dedicate to one class (he was spending waaaay over 10hr/wk. Waaaaay Over).

If it were ME, I'd certainly have my student in at least one other online learning experience before heading right into Mr. M's AP Chem. Again, the class is absolutely wonderful, organized, totally worth the $$, and Mr. M was fantastic. But, whoo boy. If this had been my kid's first online class, I think he would have had a stroke and never volunteered to take another online class ever again! 😄  As it was, he was quickly able to assess that, for whatever reason, this class was taking him a LOT longer than he had expected and he had previous online classroom experience to compare it to. This previous experience helped us a lot as we were making the decision about what to DO about it (suck it up and stick it out, or drop it before it consumed most of his year while other things fell by the wayside).

Easypeasy, if you don't mind the question, did your son replace Mr. M's class with another AP chem course, or did he opt to go with a regular (non-AP) chemistry course instead, or go another direction entirely? I think I saw another thread you have going right now where you posted about your musically talented son and mentioned that he took chem in 9th grade - is this the same child? Sorry if I'm getting my wires crossed. I'm going to search more for your past posts about this too. TY! 

ETA: My DS is taking regular chemistry with Excelsior this year (11th) and planning on AP Chem next year (12th). The Excelsior chem is not too challenging for him. He's pulling an A with only about 5-6 hours of work per week (outside of the 90 minute once weekly class). He likes science. Planning on a major that will require chem in college. But I'm pretty sure his schedule next year won't allow for 20 hours in one week devoted to just one class.

Edited January 31, 2019 by TarynB

[GoodGrief]

TarynB, I'm not easypeasy, but my sophomore did drop the Chemadvantage course. In her case, she was initially pretty traumatized by chemistry (and likely has a math disability, which we did not realize at the time.) She did eventually do a semester of dual-enrollment college chemistry in a very small class at a private university accompanied by tutoring, and got through just fine. Ultimately she had no AP courses, but she did have that senior year dual enrollment.

[RootAnn]

13 hours ago, daijobu said:

I'm guessing it won't work for students with poor EF skills and are reluctant to ask for help publicly.  

Know Thy Student! My eldest has ok EF skills, HATES asking for help publicly, and does very poorly in classes that do not have a live component. 

8 hours ago, TarynB said:

Easypeasy, if you don't mind the question, did your son replace Mr. M's class with another AP chem course, or did he opt to go with a regular (non-AP) chemistry course instead, or go another direction entirely?

ETA: My DS is taking regular chemistry with Excelsior this year (11th) and planning on AP Chem next year (12th). The Excelsior chem is not too challenging for him. He's pulling an A with only about 5-6 hours of work per week (outside of the 90 minute once weekly class). He likes science. Planning on a major that will require chem in college. But I'm pretty sure his schedule next year won't allow for 20 hours in one week devoted to just one class.

Same DD as above had an A+ in Excelsior Chem in less than 5 hrs/wk, loved it & Mrs Childress. I seriously considered the ChemAdvantage class but am very, very grateful she was able to take DE Chem at a 4 yr college nearby last semester. She was very well-prepared, spent roughly 10 hrs/wk  (including class/lab), and was highly sought-ought as a lab partner (likely due to her math skills -- not for her bunsen-burner proficiency). That was the right choice for her.

You are asking good questions. People are giving you a good range and amount of answers. Trust your gut for your student.

[Arcadia]

48 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Know Thy Student! My eldest has ok EF skills, HATES asking for help publicly, and does very poorly in classes that do not have a live component. 

 

My oldest also hates asking for help publicly. He took a few months to get the courage to ask Mr Moskaluk (Chemistry) and Mr Jeff Lanctot (Physics) for help through email.  My youngest started asking in the first month through the class forum and emails. They did ask me to look through the email to check that it was written politely before sending.

[Penelope]

As far as adjusting to an online class, I think it’s fine as a first class. It’s more a matter of whether she enjoys and can stay on top of a class with no live meetings. My high school student prefers live meetings, but has really enjoyed the asynchronous classes taken at PAH. I think there is actually MORE to get used to and keep track of with the platforms of some of the other, live, classes, in our experience. Also, Mr. Moskaluk is very responsive.

There is a lot of homework but I don’t think my teen spends more than 10 hours per week on it. He tends to do more of it on the weekends, actually, especially the labs. But he’s a junior; it’s his second year of chem, it’s not his first AP class, and by now he is very used to communicating with online teachers.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Penelope

[easypeasy]

11 hours ago, TarynB said:

Easypeasy, if you don't mind the question, did your son replace Mr. M's class with another AP chem course, or did he opt to go with a regular (non-AP) chemistry course instead, or go another direction entirely? I think I saw another thread you have going right now where you posted about your musically talented son and mentioned that he took chem in 9th grade - is this the same child? Sorry if I'm getting my wires crossed. I'm going to search more for your past posts about this too. TY! 

ETA: My DS is taking regular chemistry with Excelsior this year (11th) and planning on AP Chem next year (12th). The Excelsior chem is not too challenging for him. He's pulling an A with only about 5-6 hours of work per week (outside of the 90 minute once weekly class). He likes science. Planning on a major that will require chem in college. But I'm pretty sure his schedule next year won't allow for 20 hours in one week devoted to just one class.

 

Ds took a local Chemistry class in 9th & we planned to go straight to AP Chem for 10th. When we dropped it, we went to Derek Owens Physics, which has been great!

Still on the fence for the next two years, but AP Bio and AP Chem are nowhere on the list due to the time commitment!

[crazyforlatin]

Dicentra is using Chang's 7th edition General Chemistry and Mr. M is using the Chang's 10th edition Chemistry. Are these the same books but just that Mr. M is using a newer version? 

I'm asking because I was going to have DD to AP Chem in 11th or 12th grade because I've been told it's the hardest AP science. I'm just wondering if she ought to do AP Chem in 9th or still wait for more intellectual development, lol. She's been spending so much time with Honors Chem so 8-10 hours in AP won't be much of a change. 

If the content is different between the books, like the AP version is much more in-depth than the 7th edition, I'm just going to still go ahead with anatomy.

 

 

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, crazyforlatin said:

Dicentra is using Chang's 7th edition General Chemistry and Mr. M is using the Chang's 10th edition Chemistry. Are these the same books but just that Mr. M is using a newer version? 

 

This is the 10th edition book link on internet archive that he uses. https://archive.org/stream/Chemistry_10th_Edition_Raymond_Chang#mode/2up

[Dicentra]

2 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

Dicentra is using Chang's 7th edition General Chemistry and Mr. M is using the Chang's 10th edition Chemistry. Are these the same books but just that Mr. M is using a newer version? 

I'm asking because I was going to have DD to AP Chem in 11th or 12th grade because I've been told it's the hardest AP science. I'm just wondering if she ought to do AP Chem in 9th or still wait for more intellectual development, lol. She's been spending so much time with Honors Chem so 8-10 hours in AP won't be much of a change. 

If the content is different between the books, like the AP version is much more in-depth than the 7th edition, I'm just going to still go ahead with anatomy.

They are similar but not the same. 🙂  Chang's General Chemistry is a college text meant for non-majors so it's rigorous and written at the college level but it's not the equivalent of a freshman chemistry course for students majoring in the physical sciences.  Chang's Chemistry is written for use in AP Chemistry but could also be used for a freshman chemistry course at university.  It's got some extra chapters and covers certain subjects in more depth.

[katilac]

She has to take biology at some point so I would personally start with that. If she hasn't had bio or chemistry, I'm guessing she will be a freshman? Obviously freshmen do take AP chem, but it is hella hard for most students and high school can be a big adjustment even if they have taken high school level classes in the past. 

Is there a specific reason to start with AP Chem rather than biology? I personally wouldn't do it just for scheduling purposes unless the student was chomping at the bit for some chemistry. If you and dd could take a long look at the Chang textbook that might also help you decide. 

We didn't find biology overly difficult to do at home, and I don't have that much science mojo. One of them used Essential Biology from Pearson and the other used Holt Biology.  

[MamaSprout]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

She has to take biology at some point so I would personally start with that. If she hasn't had bio or chemistry, I'm guessing she will be a freshman? Obviously freshmen do take AP chem, but it is hella hard for most students and high school can be a big adjustment even if they have taken high school level classes in the past. 

Is there a specific reason to start with AP Chem rather than biology? I personally wouldn't do it just for scheduling purposes unless the student was chomping at the bit for some chemistry. If you and dd could take a long look at the Chang textbook that might also help you decide. 

We didn't find biology overly difficult to do at home, and I don't have that much science mojo. One of them used Essential Biology from Pearson and the other used Holt Biology.  

She's had biology, algebra-based physics and (this year) chemistry at home. I was debating if we really need to do advanced biology as an online class, or if we can do it at home and still be ready for AP Chem for the following year. She hasn't done a lot of online stuff, and I don't want to set her up for failure. I thought this thread had run its course so I edited some info out of the first post. It might have made it a little confusing.

Right now, I'm leaning towards having her use MIT OCW for both courses. I like the book choices MIT OCW has, and if the planets align, we might do the SAT 2 test for Bio. She also might prep for the AP test for chem if we can find a test site because the Chemical Principles course seems to cover a lot of the AP content.

Right now she is specifically interested in immunology and endocrine stuff. I'd like the flexibility for her to go deeper in those topics, but there's only so much time. Thanks!

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by MamaSprout

[mirabillis]

I would not advise AP Chem (Chemadvantage) as your first online course. It does kick your child's butt, like another poster said. My ds took it last year (10th) and managed to keep a borderline B+/A- all year long. He scored a 4 while he got 5's in 3 other classes. He had no previous Chem experience, but he's naturally mathy and it is quite math/formula heavy. I would not have my dd take it at all, but will think of her younger brother maybe in hs. But not as a first online class. My son took Bio with WTMA 9th grade first, and had already tackled 3 other APs in 9th grade before going for Chemadvantage in 10th. This worked well. It is a hard course - give her some other AP experience before tackling it.

[katilac]

6 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

She's had biology, algebra-based physics and (this year) chemistry at home. I was debating if we really need to do advanced biology as an online class, or if we can do it at home and still be ready for AP Chem for the following year. She hasn't done a lot of online stuff, and I don't want to set her up for failure. I thought this thread had run its course so I edited some info out of the first post. It might have made it a little confusing.

 <snip>

Right now she is specifically interested in immunology and endocrine stuff. I'd like the flexibility for her to go deeper in those topics, but there's only so much time. Thanks!

 

 

Ah, I see now that chem is in your signature! 

Personally, as she has completed the core sciences, I would strongly consider letting her follow her interests rather than go AP. It can be nerve-wracking to go off the beaten path when 'everyone' is doing APs, but I'd say that a course focusing on immunology and endocrine stuff is just as valuable as a standard AP bio course. On the practical side, lots of students will have AP bio and very few will have a specialty course like that, it will stand out just as much imo. 

Of course, your dd may have very specific goals that require AP bio and chem, but, generally speaking, I think students should go with their authentic interests once the basics are covered. 

[MamaSprout]

4 hours ago, katilac said:

It can be nerve-wracking to go off the beaten path when 'everyone' is doing APs,

Well said. Thank you.

[TarynB]

I'm not the OP, but I want to thank all those who shared their experiences here with AP Chem. You all gave me lots to think about, and the comment about going off the beaten path even when it seems "everyone" is doing APs really spoke to me.

DS is interested in a career in health care. This year he has doubled up on science courses (regular chemistry and anatomy & physiology) and he wants to take at least 2 science credits again next year for 12th grade. So we've decided to have him take dual enrollment chemistry instead of AP Chem, which will also allow him to dive deeper into a biological science that he is "authentically" interested in.

He just signed up for a one-semester course called Biomedical Science at Excelsior Classes for next year (he's already taken regular bio). He's SOOO excited. Thank you all so much!

Edited February 4, 2019 by TarynB

[crazyforlatin]

1 minute ago, TarynB said:

I'm not the OP, but I want to thank all those who shared their experiences here with AP Chem. You all gave me lots to think about, and the comment about going off the beaten path even when it seems "everyone" is doing APs really spoke to me.

DS is interested in a career in health care. This year he has doubled up on science courses (regular chemistry and anatomy & physiology) and he wants to do the same again next year for 12th grade. So we've decided to have him take DE chemistry instead of AP Chem, which will allow him to also dive deeper into a biological science that he is "authentically" interested in.

He just signed up for a one-semester course called Biomedical Science at Excelsior Classes for next year (he's already taken regular bio). He's SOOO excited. Thank you all so much!

Glad to read that there are others exploring atypical science courses. We're thinking of anatomy with WTMA for 9th while adding a bio lab (we're doing bio on our own this year) at WTMA, if that's allowed. 

 

[GoodGrief]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:22 AM, MamaSprout said:

She's had biology, algebra-based physics and (this year) chemistry at home. I was debating if we really need to do advanced biology as an online class, or if we can do it at home and still be ready for AP Chem for the following year. She hasn't done a lot of online stuff, and I don't want to set her up for failure. I thought this thread had run its course so I edited some info out of the first post. It might have made it a little confusing.

Right now, I'm leaning towards having her use MIT OCW for both courses. I like the book choices MIT OCW has, and if the planets align, we might do the SAT 2 test for Bio. She also might prep for the AP test for chem if we can find a test site because the Chemical Principles course seems to cover a lot of the AP content.

Right now she is specifically interested in immunology and endocrine stuff. I'd like the flexibility for her to go deeper in those topics, but there's only so much time. Thanks!

 

 

Not sure what colleges she is considering, but keep in mind that some will not want to see coursework prior to 9th grade. If science is her passion, not a bad idea to do a standardized test or two in that area to show that she has a foundation of knowledge of the basics. AP is not necessary, but the tests can be useful 🙂 SAT subject tests are certainly easier to schedule though! FWIW, my engineering daughter only took one AP science, biology, and it was only because the scheduling made that one a practical choice.

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Not sure what colleges she is considering, but keep in mind that some will not want to see coursework prior to 9th grade. If science is her passion, not a bad idea to do a standardized test or two in that area to show that she has a foundation of knowledge of the basics. AP is not necessary, but the tests can be useful 🙂 SAT subject tests are certainly easier to schedule though! FWIW, my engineering daughter only took one AP science, biology, and it was only because the scheduling made that one a practical choice.

Thanks. She is definitely interested in engineering (right now biomedical or aerospace... but who knows).

[Mom0012]

I just noticed registration is now open for the ChemAdvantage class for anyone who is interested.