Social struggles-Child doesn’t feel like she is the equal of her friends.

[Dmmetler]

Does anyone have any suggestions on this one?

 

DD has a friend who is a smart, but not particularly academic, child (I suspect she is 2e, based on what I’ve seen-For the most part it’s written output that seems to be the problem). She’s very athletic and popular and well liked. She loves documentaries and exploring nature and has an encyclopedic knowledge about a few topics, particularly raptors and owls. It’s easy to see why they get along-and they both are likely to walk into an object, because one is always looking up and one is always looking down. Most of her friends are smart-another one is at Duke TIPS camp right now, and a third just got a grade skip over 7th into 8th for the fall in an online charter. 

 

Friend just got her SAT-10 back. It was her first time taking any sort of formal test in her life. And scored dead average, with a major amount of spread (mathematics computation and spelling and grammar were low, reading comprehension and mathematical problem solving high, etc). She is extremely depressed. She wanted a score high enough  to join the homeschool honor society chapter,and had been trying to convince DD to do it with her. She wants to do dual enrollment like DD does-but she can’t take the ACT for talent search without a high state test score (I told mom that she absolutely can take the ACT on her own-but mom placed the “you have to qualify for talent search” because of wanting to make sure her DD would be likely to do well). She wants to go to TIPS or to the programs that DD does because they sound like a lot of fun to her.  She wants to skip a grade so she can at least graduate with her friend who just skipped a grade and the one at TIPS (who is a year older). 

 

And now she feels like she is not smart enough to be friends with her friends-because they all have proof that they’re smart-and she has proof that she’s average. 

 

DD is very worried about her and doesn’t know what to do. She doesn’t feel her friend has anything to feel inferior about (and if DD could trade some of her academic skills for being more athletic and popular, I suspect she would do so quite readily). 

Any suggestions? 

 

 

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

Friend just got her SAT-10 back. It was her first time taking any sort of formal test in her life. And scored dead average, with a major amount of spread (mathematics computation and spelling and grammar were low, reading comprehension and mathematical problem solving high, etc).

 She wants to do dual enrollment like DD does-but she can’t take the ACT for talent search without a high state test score (I told mom that she absolutely can take the ACT on her own-but mom placed the “you have to qualify for talent search” because of wanting to make sure her DD would be likely to do well). 

 

Her SAT-10 spread is similar to my DS12’s year’s ago. His grammar score was high though.  While SAT-10 is untimed, DS12 did need a mild spelling curriculum and he needed math computation drills for the stamina (to complete the problems without feeling tired) to do decently well for untimed or timed standardized tests. He scored generally better on the SAT than ACT and he is a relatively slow worker.

ACT does keep scores even for middle school. Maybe that’s why her mom is worried about ACT scores. ACT scores can be deleted though if that is the primarily concern.

”How do I delete a test date record? 

Students own their test scores and may direct ACT to delete their scores for a particular test date from our records.  (Note: Students may not delete scores used to document participation in State and District Testing.)

To delete your scores for a particular test date, you must submit a written request. Provide us with your name and home address, and we will mail you a form to complete and return to us. We will then permanently remove your record for that test date from our files. All scores from that test date will be deleted.” http://www.act.org/content/act/en/products-and-services/the-act/help.html#scores

DS12 doesn’t score as well as DS13 and it took years for him to not be upset by it. 

[forty-two]

That sounds really rough.  I definitely got a lot of my self-worth from being smart when I was a kid (I wasn't socially or athletically adept, so academics was all I had going for me, or such was how I viewed it at the time), and I would have taken such a test result very badly.

There's three things that come to mind:
1) Average isn't a bad thing.  It really, really isn't.  ITU not wanting to be average, wanting to stand out (for the first 30 years of my life I wanted to be as far from average as possible, I didn't think badly of people who were average, but I based my self-worth on *not* being average, on being special, and I simultaneously rejected any hint I wasn't special while also worrying, "What if it were true?")  So ITU wanting those concrete test results to "prove" belonging, and the devastation of the test results proving that you "don't belong".  But the thing is, smartness is *not* a good foundation for belonging or friendship or self-worth.  For one, *most* people are average, and any ethic that excludes most people from belonging or friendship or the ability to live a life worth living - that's a *bad* ethic.  I overtly rejected any hint that people who were average were in any way "unworthy" - but my fears of being average myself showed that some part of me didn't actually believe that.  It's been in my 30s that I've dove into those worries and fears and dug out the false beliefs underlying them.

2) Another reason smartness isn't a good foundation is that there's *always* someone smarter.  Always.  If not right now, then there will be in the future.  You can *never* count on always being "the smart one" in the group, or even "one of the smart ones".  There's always people who are far ahead of you, doing things you couldn't dream of doing.  So you need a way to appreciate the good you can do, while also appreciating the good that others can do.  The good things others have don't diminish the good that you have.  Other people having five talents don't make your two talents worthless or "less than".  Easy to say, I know, but hard to really *feel* and live out.  I've struggled with envy at times in reading about some of the very talented adults and kids on this board - I'm smart, but I'm not that smart, and my kids are smart but not that smart, too.  I've had to work through and let go of false beliefs about being "the smart one".  Rather, I need to use the gifts I have well, and rejoice with others when they use their gifts well - let go of this sense that my gifts only matter if they are "good enough", "special enough".

3) A test is just a test - an incomplete snapshot of one moment in time.  She's still the same person she was before, with all the skills and talents she had.  Nothing changed except her perception of them.  And tests not only aren't end-all, be-all of life - they aren't even the end-all, be-all of *intelligence*.  It's not just that you can't reduce people to a set of numbers - though you most certainly can't - but also that you can't reduce intelligence to a set of numbers either.  I placed quite a bit of confidence in tests to "prove" my intelligence - ITU wanting "scientific", objective verification to place one's confidence in.  But not only is one's intelligence a poor foundation for one's self-worth, but tests to prove one's intelligence are likewise a poor foundation for one's self-worth.  It's not just that tests can't prove self-worth, but tests can't even prove intelligence.  They provide a hopefully-helpful snapshot of some of the measurable bits and bobs we think are involved in intelligence.  They don't measure everything, and sometimes they aren't as accurate at measuring the bits and bobs as they try to be, and the bits and bobs might not be as central as they think - just because it's measurable doesn't mean it's worth measuring.  It does suck to be intelligent in ways that aren't measured well on tests - validation is nice and tests have such an outsized rep (more than they deserve imo) - but succeeding on those tests doesn't mean nearly as much as people sometimes think.  The "validation" tests give is an extremely poor foundation for self-worth (btdt), and isn't nearly as much of a foundation for confidence in one's intelligence as people think (btdt, too).

I hope your dd can help her friend.

[Tanaqui]

If you think she's 2E, do you have the sort of relationship where you can float that with her mom? That won't help the immediate issue, but if she has a disability that's keeping her from reaching her potential....

[Lawyer&Mom]

She’s not average.  She’s spikey!  You don’t have to be above average in every domain to be super smart, and even super smart people can have (major) deficits!  

Also, she might not test well.  If this was her first test she was being scored against kids who have taken years of standardized tests.  There can be a knack to it.

And if her (documented) super smart friends think she is super smart, then she is.  Because super smart people know their own. 

[Dmmetler]

That’s kind of DD’s feeling-she doesn’f Have all that many people she can talk with, so the fact that this kid is as into her specific interest as DD and knows more than DD is awesome-and definite proof that her friend is smart.

 

I really wish the mom would get her child tested-but in a family with multiple kids, the kid who’s on grade level and generally seems healthy and is not applying for college ends up being a low priority. My gut feeling is that yhere’s more there than needing more practice with spelling or math facts. 

[JennW in SoCal]

On 7/6/2018 at 9:02 AM, dmmetler said:

DD is very worried about her and doesn’t know what to do. She doesn’t feel her friend has anything to feel inferior about (and if DD could trade some of her academic skills for being more athletic and popular, I suspect she would do so quite readily). 

Any suggestions? 

 

No suggestions, but this WTM auntie wants to give your dd a virtual hug for being such a good, empathetic friend! You and your dd should just keep repeating to this young lady that tests are not the final, nor the best, measure of smarts. Offer help or suggestions if the friend wants them, otherwise just keep on being loving and supportive.

[Rosie_0801]

How about a little chat about identity theory?

 

[8filltheheart]

We have a policy where we don't discuss school or test scores with others bc we have a hardline policy that those things don't define you as a person. I personally think standardized tests have very limited value, and I equally have little value for them. So, my kids have grown up recognizing that sentiment. Academics is a small slice of who we are as individuals, and it is even harder to take our academic person and quantify it based on a standardized bubble test. 

It sounds like there is some tunnel vision going on in defining self-worth. I would start there.  Why are test scores a focus of conversation amg them as friends? Do the scores change who they are or were before they knew the scores? What changed? Why? 

Fwiw, you can share that my ds had horrible science reasoning test scores every single time he took the ACT. They always brought his composite score down. The irony is that he definitely is gifted in science, both analytical and theoretical aspects. He was taking 300 level physics courses with the highest grades in the courses and the ACT SR said he was barely college ready!! The idea that the ACT reflected his science reasoning is quite absurd. What did it reflect? That he is a slow reader and by the end of the 3 hr test he was simply tired.  You can share that he went on to graduate with a 4.0 college GPA and was accepted to top grad programs in the country for theoretical physics.  The ACT was meaningless in defining his knowledge and abilities.

[Dmmetler]

I don’t think test scores are a direct topic of conversation between the girls.  I know they aren’t for DD (she really doesn’t consider them a big deal because she doesn’t have to work for them). I don’t think they would be for the other girls, either. But if you’re getting texts from your friends talking about college classes, or what you’re doing at TIPS, or about hearing Jim Weiss speak in Reno, or about “I just got to skip 7th grade”, I think that it doesn’t take a smart kid to infer better than average test scores. 

 

I think part of the problem probably is that the girl has, over the last year or so, been really curtailed on her athletic pursuits, which is where she shines. There are good reasons for that family decision, but it wasn’t her choice. It was easy to be less focused on school when you’re spending 20 hours a week in the gym. I know DD uses School as her reason to be less focused on Cheer than many of her friends there-but I’m willing to bet the average PS 8th grader spends more time in class and on homework than DD spends on her college and at home classes and studying. 

 

[Katy]

I would suggest she check out the Princeton Review and other test prep books the next time she's in the library.  Those tests are a skill that can be taught, they are not a talent.  Many kids start standardized testing in kindergarten, giving them a lot of practice and knowledge about what to expect.  If she studies for the exams she should be able to retake and do much better than she previously did.

[katilac]

That's tough, but also a completely normal (routine) disappointment. I would encourage your dd to definitely be supportive, but also not to get tangled in worry or feel like she ought to fix this or even has the right to fix this (half the posts I read about your dd could be about one of my dds, lol). 

forty-two's points are all excellent, particularly that she is the exact same person she was before taking the test. Your dd (and you, if appropriate) can say all these things, along with giving the practical advice that standardized testing is definitely a skill that can be practiced, and that practice ACT tests are readily available. And . . . that's pretty much it. The girls will probably still talk about it somewhat endlessly, because teen girls, but I (as the mom) would take a hard step back at this point and not get into long discussions about it (with the other dd, if the mom requests advice that's a different story). 

On 7/8/2018 at 8:03 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

 Why are test scores a focus of conversation amg them as friends?  

 

 

I think this is perfectly normal when there are mutually interesting activities tied to the test scores. 

[chiguirre]

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:31 PM, Katy said:

I would suggest she check out the Princeton Review and other test prep books the next time she's in the library.  Those tests are a skill that can be taught, they are not a talent.  Many kids start standardized testing in kindergarten, giving them a lot of practice and knowledge about what to expect.  If she studies for the exams she should be able to retake and do much better than she previously did.

I think this is a good idea. Khan Academy even has free Scholastic Aptitude Test (not Stanford Achievement Test) prep and past tests online. The areas she scored average in are the areas that aren't as important on the ACT or (college admission) SAT. Mathematical reasoning and reading comprehension are the core skills for doing well on the SAT in particular and practice makes a huge difference. If she needs to feel successful in order to get back in the game, this could be a fairly painless way to do it.