Open debate: what do you think would happen if all (US) education was privatized?

[SKL]

They don't make teachers take math in college?  I had to take a year of it when I was in an ed. program.  Granted, it was basic and I opted to sub a higher level sequence.  But it would have been good enough for elementary school basic math.

 

Since we require teachers to attend a minimum of 4 years of college, I don't see why math isn't required in both the early years and the later years of the program.

[Bluegoat]

From a German perspective, I do think there is probably just as much offered outside school here as in a regular high school in the US (sports, music, etc.) and at least my kids' school does offer a fair number of extracurriculars (various bands, theater, choir, acrobatics, etc.). The main difference I do see is that having so many extra activities offered at school let's students identify more with their school. In general, school "spirit" is pretty low here as it isn't the center of everything. Depending on how you value this, the US may offer an advantage.

 

I don't really see the issue with having these activities in schools, so long as they are funded appropriately.  There are other ways to do things too, but if most kids go to the school, why move them from place to place?  And especially if they are neighbourhood schools, potentially that gives a small community access to a number of facilities that could easily be used by people who aren't in school.  And people can potentially walk to them.

 

In recent years here schools have often been build attached to some kind of community centre.  So, for example, there is a new large high school with a big theatre - the school uses it, but also there are other community activities and concerts.  There are shared gyms, often the gyms are open a few nights a week for people to play ball or whatever.

[Bluegoat]

They don't make teachers take math in college?  I had to take a year of it when I was in an ed. program.  Granted, it was basic and I opted to sub a higher level sequence.  But it would have been good enough for elementary school basic math.

 

Since we require teachers to attend a minimum of 4 years of college, I don't see why math isn't required in both the early years and the later years of the program.

 

I suspect tha part of the issue is the quality of instruction.

[kiana]

And that is disturbing. We are not talking about advanced calculus, but about understanding multiplication of integers, long division, and arithmetic with fractions. Any student entering college should have mastery of these skills. Teachers go to college and attend an education program. How can they be allowed to graduate without an understanding of elementary math? (Ideally, one might argue that students who lack basic math skills should not be admitted to an education program in the first place, but at least they should have learned this after completion)

The problems just propagate: teachers are math phobic, students don't learn math and are afraid of it, math fearing students go to teach . That's a vicious cycle. 

 

I agree with everything you've said. 

 

But the issue we're looking at on a country-wide level is that there are not enough people who understand elementary math deeply enough to fill the slots needed for elementary school. Even if we suddenly found a way to recruit lots of qualified people to elementary school teaching, it would take literal years to get enough.

 

So what I'm looking at is a way to try to pull out of this vicious cycle. I think that math specialists would help this. Maybe in 20 years after enough people have grown up being properly taught, we could eliminate the position. 

[SKL]

I suspect tha part of the issue is the quality of instruction.

 

Colleges have qualified math professors, no?

 

[kiana]

Colleges have qualified math professors, no?

 

In a lot of colleges, the focus has shifted very heavily towards student retention and graduation, frequently at the expense of standards of instruction. There is a huge emphasis on keeping failure rates lower in classes. This is by no means universal, but we regularly get transfers from a couple of our feeder schools who have supposedly taken college algebra and 2-3 semesters of math for elementary school teachers, and yet they cannot add fractions or solve basic word problems. By state law, we are not allowed to refuse to accept these credits. It is extremely frustrating, both for me -- because often they are trying to pick up a math minor since they already earned 12 credits, so they end up in a more advanced class I'm teaching while being bizarrely unprepared, and this causes them to blame me for their lack of preparation (because I'm mean and I make the class too hard) and complain mightily -- and it's also frustrating for our math ed person who teaches the upper-level elementary school teaching class. 

[hepatica]

I strongly agree with most of this BUT I am not sure I agree with your basic premise. Are you saying that the poster you quoted (and which now doesn't show up which makes it difficult for me to remember exactly what it said) is incorrect? I actually do think it can be easier to control an uneducated population. Unfortunately, such a population can be easier manipulated by the right authority figure(s) and exactly that is the problem, isn't it?

 

That post still shows up. I only deleted the overly sarcastic post I made yesterday.

 

I think it was just a mistake or misquote, since I was essentially agreeing with creekland.

[SKL]

I agree with everything you've said. 

 

But the issue we're looking at on a country-wide level is that there are not enough people who understand elementary math deeply enough to fill the slots needed for elementary school. Even if we suddenly found a way to recruit lots of qualified people to elementary school teaching, it would take literal years to get enough.

 

So what I'm looking at is a way to try to pull out of this vicious cycle. I think that math specialists would help this. Maybe in 20 years after enough people have grown up being properly taught, we could eliminate the position. 

 

I looked into getting an education degree so I could teach as a second career.  The only option was to get a modified master's degree that was ridiculously expensive.  None of my college credits nor work experience would be recognized.  All that work and money so I could earn an entry-level teacher salary?  Unless I was independently wealthy in addition to having big heart for volunteering, it would not make sense.

 

We need to come up with a workable process to integrate knowledgeable adults into the education process.

 

My dad (an electrical engineer) taught at the vo-ed part-time for a while.  That was the only K-12 level public school that would accept non-teacher certificate holders as teachers.  Unfortunately, this did not reach college-bound kids as few opted to attend the vo-ed.

[Bluegoat]

Colleges have qualified math professors, no?

 

 

Yup.  But perhaps they wrongly assume the students actually understand the basics, when they are just going through the motions?

 

I mean, I am not super mathy, mainly because I didn't pay attention at school.  I could do elementary school math when I needed to, though - I finished academic math through high school, so I could get the right answers.

 

 When I chose a homeschool math program, I still found I needed a program that was pretty explicit, so I would be able to really see and explain what was happening to my kids - and it made things a lot clearer to me, as well.  And rather embarrassingly, I am talking about simple things like why long division works.

 

It's one thing to spit out the right answer, and another to explain why it works, or see why someone is having trouble, or think of another way to show the student if something doesn't click.

[creekland]

Just to make sure I'm clear, your charter schools aren't part of your school district? If they are public schools do they have their own district or does the state deal with them individually?

 

There are no charter schools directly in my district, but kids in my district can opt to go to others nearby.  In our state, they take their own district's money with them (our school district has to pay for them out of their budget).

 

"There is no tuition charge for a resident or nonresident student attending a charter school. Funding for charter schools is addressed in Section 1725-A (PDF) of the Pennsylvania Public School Code. Charter schools should receive for each student enrolled an amount paid by the district of resident of each student. This amount is based upon a statutory funding formula. There is a funding formula for non-special education students and for special education students."

 

http://www.education.pa.gov/K-12/Charter%20Schools/Pages/Charter-School-Funding.aspx#tab-1

 

Maybe it is different where you live, but where I live, only a small portion of society can participate in many of the sports programs because they are affiliated with the schools.  If you are 19 years old, you can't use the swimming pool because you graduated from high school.  If you are 14 years old, you can't use the track because you aren't old enough to be in high school yet.  If you live on that side of the drainage ditch, you can't use the new $60 million football stadium because you live in the wrong neighborhood.  You can't use the school gym because you didn't make the basketball team (when the kids whose parents paid $100 per hour private coaches over a number of years did).  If you are struggling in math, you can't play your instrument this week because your grade in math isn't high enough. If your local public high school doesn't meet your academic needs because you are very gifted in mathematics and your parents homeschool you, you can't access the weight room.

 

It is definitely different where I live.  Our school doesn't have a pool.  They use one at a nearby retirement home - getting up to have practice BEFORE school starts in the morning.  Our track, gym, and weight room have hours where they are open to the public.  We don't have a multi-million dollar stadium.

 

FWIW, the private schools in our area are NOT open to the public for these sorts of things.

 

And of course, again, all of this goes back to my original question: what if we put the onus of educating children back onto their parents? The fact that people find this thought to be an impossibility or a disaster waiting to happen is kind of an indictment of our current system, IMO.

 

The fact that you think this can work and have everyone get a chance at an education makes me think you have a limited knowledge of the range of parents out there.  Parents who care already try to give their offspring a decent education (public, private, homeschooling, whatever) and having more choices can be useful.  Parents who don't care aren't going to suddenly care if they have oodles of choices.  They're going to be human and go to the "easiest" one for them (or cheapest). Some do not even care if their kids attend.

 

I don't know. You hear a lot of smack talking about teachers. How many times have you heard "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach"?

 

But another reason it's so soul sucking is because the administration is so convinced of their incompetence that they keep implementing more and more restrictions. In some cases, teachers have been forced to teach literally with an earpiece by which someone can relay immediate feedback, which often involves chiding them for not following the script exactly. There is no room for divergence. They have little to no input on curriculum, pace, or anything else. 

 

I could not work under those conditions. I would very seriously rather stack shelves at Walmart. 

 

That's one of the main reasons I stick with part-time subbing at a school that lets me teach (not babysitting).  By being part time I don't have to conform to what "real" teachers have to do.  Even when I've taken long-term assignments for a maternity or military leave, it's always been with the condition that I get to do things my way.  They stay hands off.

 

If I were to be a "real" teacher they wouldn't be able to treat me differently and I'd burn out pretty darn quickly.  There are quite a few teachers who often tell me they are envious of my position.  I remind them they make far more money than I do.  There's a trade off.

 

I strongly agree with most of this BUT I am not sure I agree with your basic premise. Are you saying that the poster you quoted (and which now doesn't show up which makes it difficult for me to remember exactly what it said) is incorrect? I actually do think it can be easier to control an uneducated population. Unfortunately, such a population can be easier manipulated by the right authority figure(s) and exactly that is the problem, isn't it?

 

You're right... easier to control via mind manipulation as they don't have the education/knowledge to understand what's going on.  Dictators have used that for centuries.  One can even see it in lack of math knowledge.  When we come across a cashier having difficulty figuring out change they almost always just trust us when we tell them what it should be.  If we were of a certain mindset, we could easily use that fact to benefit ourselves.

 

An educated society is our best chance for the future.  

[DawnM]

I think the reason is that the model for elementary school is just that kids will build a relationship mainly with one teacher who knows the kids well, and that teacher will be something of a generalist.

 

Here, you have an undergrad degree before you get a teaching degree - but for elementary school teachers, they take a pretty wide breath of classes, even though they have a major.

 

And really - I don't think it sounds crazy, on the face of it, to think that people should have enough grasp of math up to grade 5 or 6 that they would be able to teach it effectively.

 

To me, it does seem to indicate, more than anything, that the teachers themselves had an inadequate math education.

 

 

California is the same way.  The teaching credentials are post graduate level and taken after you get your BA.

 

I only took one math class in college because that is all that was required.  I admit it.  But I also don't teach math in any way, shape, or form in public education.

I taught my own kids through basic Algebra but then turned it over to someone else.  Thankfully my kids took after my husband, who is great at math, but stinks at English.

Edited September 6, 2017 by DawnM

[DawnM]

In a lot of colleges, the focus has shifted very heavily towards student retention and graduation, frequently at the expense of standards of instruction. There is a huge emphasis on keeping failure rates lower in classes. This is by no means universal, but we regularly get transfers from a couple of our feeder schools who have supposedly taken college algebra and 2-3 semesters of math for elementary school teachers, and yet they cannot add fractions or solve basic word problems. By state law, we are not allowed to refuse to accept these credits. It is extremely frustrating, both for me -- because often they are trying to pick up a math minor since they already earned 12 credits, so they end up in a more advanced class I'm teaching while being bizarrely unprepared, and this causes them to blame me for their lack of preparation (because I'm mean and I make the class too hard) and complain mightily -- and it's also frustrating for our math ed person who teaches the upper-level elementary school teaching class. 

 

 

This is frustrating, and I also know professors who are pressured to give a higher grade to an athlete to either stay on the team or stay on scholarship money to be able to stay at the school.  

 

At the high school level I had a couple of students who failed my class.  They simply didn't show up much.  One missed 28 days in ONE semester and the other missed over 20.  The policy is, if they miss 10 days or more in one semester, it is an automatic fail unless they go to Saturday "credit recovery."

 

Well, neither of these two did and I gave them the Fail they deserved.

 

The principal went in and CHANGED the grade to a D to let them pass.  She did it for a bunch of classes, not just mine.

 

The entire thing left me wondering why the h*ll I even needed to be there!  If they don't have to show up or do the work, what do they even need a teacher for?

[DawnM]

Here, that's handled by hiring a retired teacher, or a youngster who will be subbing for a few years before being offered a permanent slots.  This is a unionized state where people want to be teachers in non-urban districts and there is a line to get in.  My son's spanish teacher was let go one year (had a drug problem), and there was no problemo hiring short term sub qualified in spanish while her case was processed, the long term sub was one of the spanish teachers that had been let go when enrollment went down.  My neighbor stepped out for a year for the first baby, and it took two years for a full time position to open to get back in - she did not step out for #2.   My young friend was just hired this summer in a rural district, after graduating 2 years ago and subbing in the commuting range while living at home during those two years. Its tough to find a permanent position, and the urban teachers are sooo happy when they get hired here.  I was thanked every single time I went for open house or a conference...they appreciate students who do not disrupt.   As Carol mentioned, it would be helpful if teacher jobs and pensions were structured a bit differently so they could move without seriously impacting their retirement.  The bigger problem here is the rent...very hard for a beginning grad in any field aside from engineering, law, medicine to rent a one bedroom on their own and have enough money left for transportation if they can't get student digs. At a living wage of 87k, I don't see raising wages as the solution. Taxes need to be restructured so the rent doesn't have to be so high.

 

 

 But my question was about firing teachers and observations.....which is dang next to impossible unless you are NOT in a unionized state.  Something illegal....yes, but otherwise.....just for a bad observation....no.

 

When I worked in LAUSD we had what was called the "rubber room" for teachers they couldn't fire but had done something worth firing.  (I am not going to debate or talk about the few who were there who shouldn't have been, we all know systems aren't perfect.)

[creekland]

I agree with all but the last...it is easy to control an ignorant populace. It just depends on who is the controller. 

 

Yes, upon further reflection, I agree with this and not only as its seen in politics (since the beginning of time).  It even works with the math example I gave in my last post.  When one doesn't know something, they are very willing to trust someone who "seems" right (looks the part or says what they want to hear).  Cashiers easily trust hubby and/or I when we tell them how much change we should be receiving (after we've seen a blank stare).

[Twolittleboys]

I don't really see the issue with having these activities in schools, so long as they are funded appropriately.  There are other ways to do things too, but if most kids go to the school, why move them from place to place?  And especially if they are neighbourhood schools, potentially that gives a small community access to a number of facilities that could easily be used by people who aren't in school.  And people can potentially walk to them.

 

In recent years here schools have often been build attached to some kind of community centre.  So, for example, there is a new large high school with a big theatre - the school uses it, but also there are other community activities and concerts.  There are shared gyms, often the gyms are open a few nights a week for people to play ball or whatever.

 

Definitely. There is nothing wrong with having these activities in school. There are even advantages (e.g. school spirit). But it isn't absolutely necessary to have them at school (I think my post was just to mention thatthere are different ways to do this, not to make a value judgement). And I guess if money is tight and a choice has to be made between quality education and a variety of extracurriculars, I tend to think education should go first.

 

For what it is worth, here the non-school clubs/organizations generally also share facilities (like gyms) with schools.

[SKL]

Yes, having sports (or other extracurriculars) at school is a big benefit in my view.  It's a good social opportunity for my kids (and me, I guess, as I get to know the other parents better).  It's also a help as far as logistics for working parents.  I certainly think it can be done on a budget.  But if the local people want to spend more on it, that's not my concern.

 

In an earlier discussion on this topic, people said the sports programs deserved the priority they were getting because sports bring money into the schools.  I guess that may be true in some places.

[Hilltopmom]

Then they need to get compensated accordingly. (Please note, I am not arguing with you, just adding to the comment.)

 

What the problem is, is that there are more and more regulations put on teachers, it changes almost yearly, and the evaluations end up being more about personality than actual instruction. Add to that the fact that across the nation there is a 35% DROP in teacher education program admissions, and we are in for a real problem in this country. Couple that with the HUGE percentage of teachers who leave the profession within the first 5 years of teaching, and we have a huge problem on our hands. People no longer want to go into education. It used to be a valued profession where teachers were compensated fairly (notice I did NOT say well compensated), and they were respected.

 

I have been in public education for the past 28 years, with a 10 year hiatus to stay home with my kids and homeschool, I have seen the changes first hand and when I speak to young people I dissuade them from going into teaching. I am brutally honest and tell them if their heart is in it, go for it, but have a back up plan (which I could get into here but wont' as it isn't the purpose of this thread.)

 

And there ARE already unannounced observations.....but what are you going to do with a poorly performing teacher when there is literally NO ONE to take the place of that teacher?

 

In fact, I switched school districts this year. When I went to the "new to the district" teacher training, the Superintendent got up and announced, "12 years ago, our district could be highly selective and I would have gotten up here and told you that you congratulations for being one of the select few we hired, but now, we can't find enough people for some positions, so we are saying thank you for coming instead!!!!!"

 

It was VERY telling.

 

So, YES, changes need to happen, but until teaching becomes a profession that is valued, compensated fairly in ALL of the country and not just NY and select areas, AND there are a multitude of other changes, evaluations and keeping teachers in the profession is a HUGE issue. And it is getting worse by the year.

It's like that here now too.

I'm going back after a decade off as well.

Used to be, since I'm in a town with a university with a teaching program,mthat teachers were lined up waiting for jobs.

.

Now, every teacher I know tells kids not to go into teaching.

 

I'm going back because I literally had districts I used to work for begging teachers to apply for openings this year. (I'm certified in Special Ed, but they needed other areas too). Positions were open as of mid August still, not sure if those ever got filled.

 

We're in NY, but way upstate. Starting teachers make in the low 40s at public school, upper $20- low 30 at private school.... (Not all areas are paying $80,000 to teachers)

I'm starting back at the bottom for salary & retirement since I left & didn't stay active in teaching or the union.

Not exactly raking in big bucks with my BS in Biology & MS in Education.

Good thing my mom can watch my kids or my whole salary would be going to daycare.

(I accepted only a part time position since I have littles at home, but am putting aside $ for my oldest who goes to college full time next year)

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Bootsie]

And that is disturbing. We are not talking about advanced calculus, but about understanding multiplication of integers, long division, and arithmetic with fractions. Any student entering college should have mastery of these skills. Teachers go to college and attend an education program. How can they be allowed to graduate without an understanding of elementary math? (Ideally, one might argue that students who lack basic math skills should not be admitted to an education program in the first place, but at least they should have learned this after completion)

The problems just propagate: teachers are math phobic, students don't learn math and are afraid of it, math fearing students go to teach . That's a vicious cycle. 

DS's fifth grade teacher did not possess basic fifth grade math skills.  Worse yet, she didn't follow a basic bath book.  After eight weeks of school, DS had six graded math papers--all of which had basic grading errors.  These papers were things like identify the prime numbers and list the factors of a number.  DH and I would wrote out the explanation of prime numbers on a misgraded worksheet and went in to meet with her; her response was "After I got your note I started thinking about it and looked it up on the internet, and I think you are correct."  I asked to see the math curriculum and she started pulling sheets of paper out of the trashcan.  I asked if they had a fifth grade math book in the class; there was a set on some shelf, but she had not opened one.

 

The principal's response was what a great teacher she was--hard working, innovative, using leading edge technology rather than a textbook....

[kiana]

Yeah, this crap about "guide on the side vs. sage on the stage" where the kids are supposed to discover can work really well if the teacher has a thorough and profound understanding of elementary math, but ... honestly, if I were the principal of a school where the teachers were of this caliber in general, I'd just make them all use Saxon. I'd rather have them taught boring math than no math. At least Saxon kids can usually compute. 

[DawnM]

It's like that here now too.

I'm going back after a decade off as well.

Used to be, since I'm in a town with a university with a teaching program,mthat teachers were lined up waiting for jobs.

.

Now, every teacher I know tells kids not to go into teaching.

 

I'm going back because I literally had districts I used to work for begging teachers to apply for openings this year. (I'm certified in Special Ed, but they needed other areas too). Positions were open as of mid August still, not sure if those ever got filled.

 

We're in NY, but way upstate. Starting teachers make in the low 40s at public school, upper $20- low 30 at private school.... (Not all areas are paying $80,000 to teachers)

I'm starting back at the bottom for salary & retirement since I left & didn't stay active in teaching or the union.

Not exactly raking in big bucks with my BS in Biology & MS in Education.

Good thing my mom can watch my kids or my whole salary would be going to daycare.

(I accepted only a part time position since I have littles at home, but am putting aside $ for my oldest who goes to college full time next year)

 

 

Wait....you don't get any credit for former years of teaching?  And didn't you pay into the state retirement system?

 

NC gave me all of my CA years towards the salary scale, but to move my retirement from CA to NC is almost $10K PER YEAR I want to move.  That is a huge reason we are looking at going back to CA, so I can finish off my years there and not worry about the health care issue.  I would still get the money I put in to CA, but it is a pension plan, so leaving early would really hurt my bottom line (which is small to begin with!)

[DawnM]

Yeah, this crap about "guide on the side vs. sage on the stage" where the kids are supposed to discover can work really well if the teacher has a thorough and profound understanding of elementary math, but ... honestly, if I were the principal of a school where the teachers were of this caliber in general, I'd just make them all use Saxon. I'd rather have them taught boring math than no math. At least Saxon kids can usually compute. 

 

Except that isn't an option.....the state decides what you teach and how you teach it.  

 

Last year I worked in 2 schools, an Elem. and a High, all in the same day.  HS I taught English Lit to ELL students for them to get their English credit and at the Elem. school I did a pull out ESL program.

 

The only time I could pull the 1st graders was during their math, so we would do some math first.  They had to use some *stupid* common core curriculum called EngageNY.  The workbooks were so confusing! But the teachers all had to teach the same thing, from the same book, on the same day......so 4 first grade classrooms, all on Lesson 41 on day 41.  No exceptions.

[regentrude]

DS's fifth grade teacher did not possess basic fifth grade math skills.  Worse yet, she didn't follow a basic bath book.  After eight weeks of school, DS had six graded math papers--all of which had basic grading errors.  These papers were things like identify the prime numbers and list the factors of a number.  DH and I would wrote out the explanation of prime numbers on a misgraded worksheet and went in to meet with her; her response was "After I got your note I started thinking about it and looked it up on the internet, and I think you are correct."  I asked to see the math curriculum and she started pulling sheets of paper out of the trashcan.  I asked if they had a fifth grade math book in the class; there was a set on some shelf, but she had not opened one.

 

The principal's response was what a great teacher she was--hard working, innovative, using leading edge technology rather than a textbook....

 

:banghead:

 

Yeah. My friend had extended email exchanges with her kid's 4th grade teacher who kept insisting on wrong procedures, even after the parent explained that this was wrong.

[Hilltopmom]

Wait....you don't get any credit for former years of teaching? And didn't you pay into the state retirement system?

 

NC gave me all of my CA years towards the salary scale, but to move my retirement from CA to NC is almost $10K PER YEAR I want to move. That is a huge reason we are looking at going back to CA, so I can finish off my years there and not worry about the health care issue. I would still get the money I put in to CA, but it is a pension plan, so leaving early would really hurt my bottom line (which is small to begin with!)

Well, I did preschool special Ed for my first 8 years of teaching which are contract based & not part of teachers retirement system, so no credit for those.

My 3 years of public school teaching I did pay into retirement, but if you don't stay active, you get a check for what you paid in (so I got that amount back years ago).

I'm starting back at preschool, but will likely move to a district once my littles are both in K.

[Wheres Toto]

They don't make teachers take math in college?  I had to take a year of it when I was in an ed. program.  Granted, it was basic and I opted to sub a higher level sequence.  But it would have been good enough for elementary school basic math.

 

Since we require teachers to attend a minimum of 4 years of college, I don't see why math isn't required in both the early years and the later years of the program.

 

When I was in college for Elementary Education, I had to take a general math course that included some logic, some geometry, some algebra but not anything in-depth on any of them.   I already had credits in College Algebra and College Calculus but this specific course was required for Education majors, no substitutions even with a higher level course.   I could see why someone wouldn't want to take the time to take higher math on their own when they are trying to fit in all the other required classes, but I thought that was ridiculous.  

 

It looks like the same university I went to (which was founded as a teacher's college and still has what is considered a strong education program) has changed their requirement and Elementary Education now has to take Algebra or one of a few other options.  They also have to be accepted into an academic major - science, math, history, english or spanish, have a 3.0 gpa, and get at least a B- in 6 specific courses (including the required math).  So, I guess depending on what major they chose they may have more math.

[Wheres Toto]

I looked into getting an education degree so I could teach as a second career.  The only option was to get a modified master's degree that was ridiculously expensive.  None of my college credits nor work experience would be recognized.  All that work and money so I could earn an entry-level teacher salary?  Unless I was independently wealthy in addition to having big heart for volunteering, it would not make sense.

 

We need to come up with a workable process to integrate knowledgeable adults into the education process.

 

My dad (an electrical engineer) taught at the vo-ed part-time for a while.  That was the only K-12 level public school that would accept non-teacher certificate holders as teachers.  Unfortunately, this did not reach college-bound kids as few opted to attend the vo-ed.

 

We have an alternate route program here for people who already hold degrees, have mostly had other careers, and want to enter teaching.  It can be done in a very intensive summer or over the course of a year, and then includes monitoring for their first year teaching.  I know a few people who have done it when their kids reach school age so they can work (mostly) on their kids schedules.

[Twolittleboys]

That post still shows up. I only deleted the overly sarcastic post I made yesterday.

 

I think it was just a mistake or misquote, since I was essentially agreeing with creekland.

 

Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush and didn't word this well. What I meant is that when I quoted creekland's post which had part of your post in it your quote didn't show up on my post (I guess you can't quote a qote in a post) and creekland's original post was on a different page so I couldn't look at it while I was writing. Huh, this sounds quite convoluted and I am not sure if it is clear what I mean... In any case, I didn't mean that your post had disappeared at all. 

[creekland]

Let's just say that math classes differ in level even within the same university.   I had to take a Stats class for my Psych major.  None of my Math minor classes would replace it, so fine, whatever.  It was a junior level class.  I think my jaw hit the floor when the professor started teaching "averages" and put a list of numbers on the board computing the average to be -2.  A student in class raised his hand and asked, "So, is an average always going to be -2 or if you change one of those numbers, will the average change?"

 

A junior level class...

 

I talked with the prof after class and got permission to skip classes without it affecting my grade as long as I took the tests.  I'd show up a class or two before a scheduled test to be sure the date hadn't changed and still got an easy A.  The scary thing is I doubt everyone got As.  I know they didn't.  The prof seemed as frustrated as I was with some of it TBH.

 

At the same school, my freshman Calc classes (for Physics, Engineers, etc) were MUCH tougher as was Linear Alg and similar math classes.

 

I think some classes are there to try to ensure most students can get the credits they need rather than setting a bar with knowledge - or the bar is really low.

 

This was in the 80s, so it's nothing new.

[Arcadia]

I agree with everything you've said.

 

But the issue we're looking at on a country-wide level is that there are not enough people who understand elementary math deeply enough to fill the slots needed for elementary school. Even if we suddenly found a way to recruit lots of qualified people to elementary school teaching, it would take literal years to get enough.

 

So what I'm looking at is a way to try to pull out of this vicious cycle. I think that math specialists would help this. Maybe in 20 years after enough people have grown up being properly taught, we could eliminate the position.

 

 

My local public elementary schools have a science teacher for 4th and 5th grade. That teacher only teach science and takes care of the 5th grade science fair. No reason why my local public school can't do the same thing for Math for upper elementary (3rd-5th) as they do not lack funds. Majority of the local k-5 teachers I know would be happy to swap Math class time for English class time with another teacher.

 

When oldest was in kindergarten, out of 6 kindergarten teachers, 3 could teach math confidently from K-8. For 1st grade, 1 out of 6 is confident in teaching math. So a bit of rescheduling of teachers class workloads and every child in K and 1st would have a math competent teacher in that school.

 

As for those of you who keep saying math teachers are dumb, don't know their subject matter.....etc.....that actually does not surprise me. Most people who are really good in math go into math fields and make 3xs the money that they would make as a teacher. The same is often true for science majors. There is a LOT more money out there to be made outside of teaching.

 

As for the bar being high.....what would you like the bar to be? If we can't even get teachers with a low bar, how will we entice people into the field by raising the bar and not raising the incentives otherwise?

There are many good in math and science who went into academia. Being a tenured university lecturer here is better than my husband's engineer pay. K-12th teachers aren't underpaid in my area either if you compare their pay to an engineer's (not management) pay without stock options.

 

This is how much my school district paid their teachers in 2015 and they did have pay raises since then:

 

Math teacher $168,169.12

Science teacher $146,058.28

Kindergarten teacher $135,384.99

PE teacher $145,264.24

Librarian $133,828.65

Counselor $$138,794.01

 

That is why I said the pay and the math ability is making people shake their heads and parents paying up for private schools after a few years in public school. It is not a low paying job here. Since about half our property tax goes to funding the local school district, people do wish for more "value for money" and a proper allocation of teachers to subjects. A math teacher might be able to teach Spanish 1 for example but in a large school district, reshuffling of teachers would pair more teachers with the subject they are most qualified to teach. My district has over two thousand teachers on their payroll.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Arcadia

[DawnM]

Well, I did preschool special Ed for my first 8 years of teaching which are contract based & not part of teachers retirement system, so no credit for those.

My 3 years of public school teaching I did pay into retirement, but if you don't stay active, you get a check for what you paid in (so I got that amount back years ago).

I'm starting back at preschool, but will likely move to a district once my littles are both in K.

 

 

Wow, you got a check for what you paid into the retirement system?  

 

Too bad about the preschool stuff.  I was offered an adult ed job once, but even though it was in the same school as our high school, and sponsored by the district, it didn't allow for the same retirement credit, so I said no.  It actually would have been a less stressful job in many ways.  

 

Oh well.

[DawnM]

My local public elementary schools have a science teacher for 4th and 5th grade. That teacher only teach science and takes care of the 5th grade science fair. No reason why my local public school can't do the same thing for Math for upper elementary (3rd-5th) as they do not lack funds. Majority of the local k-5 teachers I know would be happy to swap Math class time for English class time with another teacher.

 

When oldest was in kindergarten, out of 6 kindergarten teachers, 3 could teach math confidently from K-8. For 1st grade, 1 out of 6 is confident in teaching math. So a bit of rescheduling of teachers class workloads and every child in K and 1st would have a math competent teacher in that school.

 

There are many good in math and science who went into academia. Being a tenured university lecturer here is better than my husband's engineer pay. K-12th teachers aren't underpaid in my area either if you compare their pay to an engineer's (not management) pay without stock options.

 

This is how much my school district paid their teachers in 2015 and they did have pay raises since then:

 

Math teacher $168,169.12

Science teacher $146,058.28

Kindergarten teacher $135,384.99

Librarian $133,828.65

Counselor $$138,794.0

PE teacher $145,264.241

That is why I said the pay and the math ability is making people shake their heads and parents paying up for private schools after a few years in public school. It is not a low paying job here. Since about half our property tax goes to funding the local school district, people do wish for more "value for money" and a proper allocation of teachers to subjects. A math teacher might be able to teach Spanish 1 for example but in a large school district, reshuffling of teachers would pair more teachers with the subject they are most qualified to teach. My district has over two thousand teachers on their payroll.

 

 

No way that is the AVERAGE at all:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-5-highest-and-lowest-paying-states-for-teachers-in-the-us.html

 

Where is this?  Even Silicone Valley doesn't pay this high.

[Arcadia]

Where is this? Even Silicon Valley doesn't pay this high.

I am in Silicon Valley, very near to San Jose. It is a medium size district bordered by four school districts.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Arcadia

[Hilltopmom]

Holy... Just wow. I can't even imagine a teacher salary like that!!

I was psyched this year when I found that starting salaries in my district had been raised to $45,000

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[MBM]

No way that is the AVERAGE at all:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-5-highest-and-lowest-paying-states-for-teachers-in-the-us.html

 

Where is this? Even Silicone Valley doesn't pay this high.

Some high school teachers make that at New Trier HS in Winnetka, IL. Most teachers have advanced degrees in the subject they teach and quite a few even have PhDs but choose to teach at NT because it pays better than the offers they received from universities. It was ranked the best place to teach in the US. I believe it. They offer not only good salaries but also an excellent child care facility on campus, specially catered teachers' meals, plenty of extra time during the day for lesson planning/grading and good benefits. But, no, definitely not average.

 

2012 salaries:

http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php

 

NT also spends about $20k per student and works very hard to learn the best ways to deal with problems that teens might encounter. One of my kids went there. It's a fabulous school, I think.

Edited September 6, 2017 by MBM

[creekland]

A timely subject with a current assessment of PA teacher pay:

 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/08/where_it_pays_to_teach_school.html

 

It appears to be a good state to be a teacher in salary-wise, esp if one chooses one of the higher than average districts to work in.

 

"For comparison, the average salary of state government employees who work under the governor’s purview is $53,837 and the median Pennsylvania household income is $53,599. A rank-and-file state lawmaker's salary is $86,479.

The statewide public school teacher average is $60,186, according to education data for 2016-17."

[Arcadia]

Holy... Just wow. I can't even imagine a teacher salary like that!!

I was psyched this year when I found that starting salaries in my district had been raised to $45,000

My district's starting pay approved on December 2016 is $67,233 for bachelors degree. That is the lowest pay on the payscale.

"Stipends: $2,086 for a Masters Degree, Doctorate (up to two), National Board Certification and ASHA Certificate

...

Teachers work a 187-day work year. New teachers are paid for an additional orientation day at the beginning of the school year.

...

Board Approved 12-21-16"

[creekland]

My district's starting pay approved on December 2016 is $67,233 for bachelors degree. That is the lowest pay on the payscale.

"Stipends: $2,086 for a Masters Degree, Doctorate (up to two), National Board Certification and ASHA Certificate

...

Teachers work a 187-day work year. New teachers are paid for an additional orientation day at the beginning of the school year.

...

Board Approved 12-21-16"

 

Considering how high housing costs in Silicon Valley, I suspect comparatively, the salary in PA stretches further.  Salaries should always be looked at in context of COL for the area - not just absolute values.  We almost made that mistake in our early married lives when hubby was looking at places to work.  One salary looked awesome, until I looked at housing costs!  I'm glad I looked at housing costs prior to his accepting any job offer.

[DawnM]

I am in Silicon Valley, very near to San Jose. It is a medium size district bordered by four school districts.

 

 

I am not finding anything to support that an average teacher, even in the silicon valley, has those salaries:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/silicon-valley-housing-tough-on-teachers/399071/

 

I have a feeling you are posting, "What the TOP teachers made in each category this year" which can include a huge variety of things.....extra duties, etc...

 

We had teachers in LA who made more than administrators, but only because of the way the extra duties were structured.  We worked 8 months per year, those who made that much worked 12.  We taught 5 periods out of 6 per day, but if you taught an extra period you made roughly $60 extra per day......making *maybe* what you quoted, but I would actually need to see what it is you are looking at because I do not think those are the actual salaries of a normal teacher.

[DawnM]

Some high school teachers make that at New Trier HS in Winnetka, IL. Most teachers have advanced degrees in the subject they teach and quite a few even have PhDs but choose to teach at NT because it pays better than the offers they received from universities. It was ranked the best place to teach in the US. I believe it. They offer not only good salaries but also an excellent child care facility on campus, specially catered teachers' meals, plenty of extra time during the day for lesson planning/grading and good benefits. But, no, definitely not average.

 

2012 salaries:

http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php

 

NT also spends about $20k per student and works very hard to learn the best ways to deal with problems that teens might encounter. One of my kids went there. It's a fabulous school, I think.

 

I have no idea how to use that chart to see salaries other than just names and salaries and I have no way of knowing who those folks are (board members, superintendents, etc...)

[MBM]

I have no idea how to use that chart to see salaries other than just names and salaries and I have no way of knowing who those folks are (board members, superintendents, etc...)

The majority are teachers. My son's math teachers made in the 130s, a history teacher/fencing coach 160, etc. That's not what everyone makes, of course, but even starter salaries are not too bad.

 

Avg teacher salary in 2014-15 was $105k+.

 

COL is high in the area around the high school but it is possible to find more affordable homes not too far away. They're more likely small and fixer uppers, though.

Edited September 6, 2017 by MBM

[DawnM]

The majority are teachers. My son's math teachers made in the 130s, a history teacher/fencing coach 160, etc. That's not what everyone makes, of course, but even starter salaries are not too bad.

 

Avg teacher salary in 2014-15 was $105k+.

 

COL is high in the area around the high school but it is possible to find more affordable homes not too far away. They're more likely small and fixer uppers, though.

 

 

There are absolutely a couple of areas of the country where teachers make more.  NYC, San Francisco, Anchorage, and super high cost of living areas, but it is very rare.

 

Here are actual numbers for averages.

 

http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

 

And I honestly think you guys are mistaken on basic salaries of teachers. I don't care what those teachers tell you, unless it is on the website as being on the salary table OR the person is doing a lot of extra, it simply is not happening.

 

http://www.topmastersineducation.com/school-districts-with-highest-average-teacher-salary/

 

And here is NYC's salary table for teachers:

 

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/7AF6C566-C667-446A-BB24-E956EC857725/0/SalaryScheduleTeachers5117.pdf

 

And here is San Francisco:

 

http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/UESF%20Certificated%20Salary%20Schedule%20-%20(B6,%20B7,%20&%20B8)%20(C6,%20C7,%20&%20C8).pdf

 

And the top is with about 23 years of service, an MA, etc.....NOT averages. '

 

Please understand, living in Jackson, MS, you are not making the $110,000 salaries that those with 23 year of experience, an MA, and living in the expensive city are making.

 

There is an article that explains teacher salaries by where you live and how far your money can go, I need to find it, but I am so tired tonight from actually working in public education from 8-5pm and then a meeting from 6;30-7:30.

 

And for nowhere near $100K or any kind of sustainable salary.

[Storygirl]

Again, the "who pays" part of the equation does not depend on whether the services are provided by a for-profit or government entity.

 

In my area, there are excellent private schools for children with autism and other issues that make learning in a typical school / classroom inappropriate for the individual child.  There is also a very significant state scholarship that pays tens of thousands of dollars per year to educate these children at private schools.  The parents have a role in advocating for their kids to get evaluated for admission to these excellent private schools, but the parents do not have to pay the money.  Possibly that is not true for rich people, I don't know, but my friends with kids in those schools are not rich (nor poor), and they do not pay.

 

If this is how "privatization" looks, I don't think it's a problem.

 

 

 

ETA of course many of those kids could probably attend public school if that was what their parents preferred.  But the parents are thrilled for the option of the private school. 

 

There may be a middle population where the parents feel the kids would benefit from being in a regular classroom with a 1:1 aide or similar, but this option is not generally available in private schools currently - it isn't necessary since public schools provide it.  If there were no public schools, I don't see why the government could not pay for private schools to have aides for these kids.  Private schools already get government money for things like Chapter I tutoring, subsidized lunch, etc.  They do accept some special needs.  If they could get a 1:1 aide without paying for it out of tuition, they would probably accept kids in that situation.

 

Over the last few pages, the thread has moved on from discussing special needs, but I wanted to respond to this.

 

You and I live in the same state. Two of my children have the state disability scholarship, and it doesn't work exactly as you depicted above.

 

One of my children attends a private school for students with learning disabilities. The state scholarship amount pays 1/3 of the tuition, and we have to pay 2/3. We pay as much for her school as we do for our other children combined, at their private schools, even with the scholarship.

 

There is financial aid for lower earning families, but aid is limited, and you have to apply for it. If you are over a certain income, you don't qualify for financial aid, and that income amount disqualifies many who are in the middle class, not just those who are wealthier.

 

The other child with the scholarship attends a private school that offers intervention services but also serves general students. We still pay the regular full tuition; his scholarship pays for the intervention that he receives.

 

That child will be attending public high school, because we have searched carefully and have not found a private school that will be able to meet his needs, even though some private high schools accept that disability scholarship.

 

I have no reason to believe that privatizing the school system will make things better for those with special needs. I would say that my family has advantages that many do not -- we live in a good school district, have a good income, are well educated and able to advocate for the services that our kids need. And yet finding adequate help for my kids with special needs is time consuming, emotionally draining, and just plain hard. I have plenty of complaints about the public school's special education system, as we have has to deal with it, but I am so very glad that it is there.

 

The only reason private schools can stay in business is because they can make a profit, and there is no financial profit in serving those with disabilities and doing it well. If all schools were privatized, schools for those with learning disabilities would be few and far between and would lack the oversight that the public school IEP process provides. What the government offers for financial help really is helpful, but it is insufficient to address all the needs adequately.

 

 

[DawnM]

The majority are teachers. My son's math teachers made in the 130s, a history teacher/fencing coach 160, etc. That's not what everyone makes, of course, but even starter salaries are not too bad.

 

Avg teacher salary in 2014-15 was $105k+.

 

COL is high in the area around the high school but it is possible to find more affordable homes not too far away. They're more likely small and fixer uppers, though.

 

 

let me post a small snapshot of what teachers make from that sight.  It is wildly all over the place:

 

I have removed the offending post, but let the record state that out of the 100 people listed, only two made over $100K and it wasn't stated if they were teachers or not.  AND 90% of them ranged from 32K-79K

 

And here is the teacher salary schedule for Chicago:

 

https://www.ctunet.com/for-members/text/2012-tentative-agreement/208-day-positions-Final-Showing-Pension-Pick-up-092412.pdf

 

Highest paid are around $105K, after many years and much education.  Not the average.

 

Could you please send a link to what you are talking about with averages being $104K?

Edited September 7, 2017 by DawnM

[MBM]

Could you please remove their personal names from your post?

 

Also, those salaries you posted are Chicago Heights salaries which is a city south of Chicago but in the same county as Chicago. If you want to look up New Trier's teacher salaries, go to the second field of the first link I posted. It should say "Find A District." In the box, type in "New Trier Twp" without the quotes. Then, at the bottom on the left, click on New Trier Twp HSD 203. That should take you to New Trier.

 

I do not know exactly why the salaries are all over the place. What I can tell you is that most are teachers. I cannot say for sure because the school is very large and I only knew some of them. Some are also coaches and they get a salary for coaching as well. Almost all of them have advanced degrees (around 96%) and some also have PhDs. Some have many years of experience which would explain the higher salaries as well.

 

Here is the link to the Chicago Tribune article which mentions New Trier's average salary as well as the percentage of teachers who have a masters.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-teacher-salary-comparison-met-20161008-story.html

 

"In the affluent and top-performing New Trier Township High School District, 96 percent of teachers have master's degrees. In contrast, 57 percent of CPS teachers have master's degrees."

 

"New Trier's average salary was $105,850 in 2014-15, according to average teacher salary data published by the Illinois State Board of Education. "If you look at our teaching staff, it is extraordinarily experienced. We don't have a lot of turnover and over 95 percent our teachers have master's degrees," Dizon said."

Edited September 7, 2017 by MBM

[DawnM]

Removed the personal names, although they are all public knowledge in the link.  My point was just to show the salaries, which all ranged from about $34K-79K, with most being lower.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by DawnM

[MBM]

I was talking about average salary at New Trier. I don't know what the salaries at Chicago Heights have to do with that. Maybe I missed something in one of your earlier posts.

 

Here is a 2012 article from a local newspaper which gives a little more info.

 

"More than 200 teachers at New Trier High School District make more than $100,000 a year in base salary. The district superintendent explains that as the cost of having good schools."

 

https://patch.com/illinois/wilmette/new-trier-superintendent-explains-high-salaries

 

New Trier HS takes in students from five suburbs. Small compared to Chicago Public Schools but still over 4,000 students altogether.

 

Frankly, I think teachers should get good salaries. My mother was a teacher, chemistry and music major and an advanced degree, and she made peanuts. It was pathetic.

Edited September 7, 2017 by MBM

[DawnM]

I was talking about average salary at New Trier. I don't know what the salaries at Chicago Heights has to do with that. Maybe I missed something in one of your earlier posts. 

 

New Trier HS takes in students from five suburbs. Small compared to Chicago Public Schools but still over 4,000 students altogether.

 

Frankly, I think teachers should get good salaries. My mother was a teacher, chemistry and music major and an advanced degree, and she made peanuts. It was pathetic.

 

  It's ok....I am tired tonight and apparently not being clear.  New Trier is not representative of 99.9% of the teaching population....that was all I was saying.

 

I feel like if someone knows someone who happens to make more (or they think that person makes more) then the entire argument becomes anecdotal, and I was trying to look at general statistics.

[MBM]

It's a nice place to work. It's true that it's not a representative area, though. My point is that, IMO, good teachers should be paid well! And respected.

[DawnM]

It's a nice place to work. It's true that it's not a representative area, though. My point is that, IMO, good teachers should be paid well! And respected.

 

I agree.  I think teachers should make at least a living wage for where they live.   It certainly doesn't have to all be the same.

 

But here, a beginning teacher makes 32K and a teacher with 20 years of experience makes around 58K.  And getting insurance for your family runs about $8000 per year.  That simply isn't enough to support a family.  

 

It is true, you can get a small 3 bedroom townhouse in a mediocre area for $150K or so, but with seeing a car (this is not much of a public transportation area), etc....you just couldn't do it.

 

As a single, with roommates, sure.

[ScoutTN]

chaos

[SamanthaCarter]

In my experience (auditing school districts) and just looking at the stats, teachers usually get paid right around the median household income for their area. Not an easy income, but not terrible. I'm more concerned about the work environment they have to put up with.

 

 

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