Why I think we should change math programs

[Trivium Academy]

Over the last couple of days and many suggestions and posts of advice from the board, I can finally put my thoughts together why I have this gut feeling about changing math programs.

 

I've posted about it and I thought I would share it b/c for me it is a scary aspect of homeschooling- not knowing what will work and trying to do your best regardless.

 

The Mystery of the Math Switcheroo

 

That said, does anyone have any reviews of Moving With Math by Math Teachers Press?

Edited November 3, 2008 by Trivium Academy

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jessica,

 

Just two questions and a thought I hope comes out with some intelligence....

 

You say you don't care about your dd's test scores compared to what she is learning, but:

 

1) are her test scores decent?

2) (grrr, it was going to be one question, then I thought of a 2nd and now I lost it!)

 

The reason I ask is that I think some kids go through a time that they are simply going through the motions, being trained so to speak. Think of when you discipline. You require certain behavior from a 2yo, certain answers from a 4yo, expect that they can at least repeat back to you the family rule, etc. They have yet to internalize the real lessons, able to apply it to various circumstances, but you are training them, having them go through the motions anyway. And one day it *clicks* just right and they put it altogether.

 

Kids learn in different ways. Some kids go years going through the motions, getting all the answers correct, but not able to really use the information. Then one day, it all *clicks* and FINALLY they are able to do amazing things with the information, possibly levels beyond what you thought was possible, even beyond what their age or current grade level would have you suppose.

 

The reason I asked about the tests is because a lot of times, kids like this can do pretty well on the tests (average to above). They may not have internalized it all yet, but they HAVE gained the trained skills which is all a test at those younger levels may ask for. In which case, your dd may be just fine. BTW, even if she did poorly on a test (which my son would have), she still may well be fine, just not testable yet.

 

IF she is enjoying it, able to do the work, and possibly testing decently, she may not need a change; she may just need a little more time. Sometimes we curriculum hop when all we need is just a little more time.

 

Just a thought. You work with your daughter daily so have a better understanding of her needs. But sometimes staying the course is an option.

 

ONE MORE THING....

 

Could it be that she needs more practice to solidify the concepts even though she does really well at first? My son is like this. He won't miss anything on an assignment and will balk at having so much of the same easy work. However, he benefits from having some ongoing practice with the work. So where you are doing half a lesson, maybe finish up with the other half over two days 3 days apart? You'd keep going otherwise and what would eventually happen is she'd end up doing a full day's worth of work, just over 3 different lessons (the first half the new lesson, the 2nd half two other lessons she previously worked).

 

Just another thought....

[chanda7]

Thanks for sharing this. We are starting our last year of Miquon, and I'm a little unsure of where to go next. Cost is a huge factor for us, and I cannot believe the price of many programs (once you add teacher's manuals, workbooks, texts, etc.). I found the Ray's Arithmetic series on Google books for free, so we may tinker around with that. I don't want to compromise my daughter's education, but we cannot spend that much on a single subject :(

[Trivium Academy]

Pamela,

Dd8 hasn't been tested yet with a standardized test, that will happen at the end of this year. I feel a disconnect with the work she is required to do and the instruction I'm able to provide with our current resources. She does well on the tests in Horizons, which happens every 10 lessons. I understand about the soaking in and developmental issues, that is a factor in this- I want to slow down and use manipulatives. What I meant about the testing not mattering is that I hold her actual learning and absorption in higher esteem than what a test says she knows or doesn't know.

 

If I'm going to teacher her a concept, I feel I need to understand it myself and be able to present the concept in more than one way. She should be able to teach me the concept after she has learned it. Math narration, lol. She will do anything I tell her but she doesn't understand why she's doing it AND she's unable to identify what she needs to do with a mixture of problems even with concepts she's been doing for a long time.

 

I hope I don't sound contrary, I'm in a fragile place right now where I *feel* this is the best thing to do but I'm still scared. I don't want to switch programs, I've read too many times where others feel they have done a great disservice to their children by switching programs but I'm hoping we fit into the category where switching was the best thing we could have done.

 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help on this board, I do not want to seem argumentative or defensive when I'm asking for help. I am absorbing all that everyone is saying. :)

[rafiki]

.

[mom31257]

I read the blog, and understand your concern, especially with the 25%. Can I ask, was this timed? Was it with visual manipulatives, or straight mental math? If it was straight mental, it may be that she simply hasn't memorized her addition facts well enough. Allowing her to skip sections of the assignments could be a source of that. It's hard to say without knowing what you actually skip. The more you do something, the better your brain will remember it.

 

I would suggest taking a week or two off of the books, and just practice facts. Does she do well with flash cards? When I realized my dd wasn't getting the multiplication tables well enough this is what I did. We sat down and took a whole set of flash cards. I held them up, in random order, and if she didn't know the answer in like 2 seconds, I set it aside. I took the pile of cards she didn't know and that's what we practiced. I typed up quizzes over just those also. This was last year, and the rest of the year was easier as well as this year. Long division is her nemesis.

 

Since you aren't a math person, I would think you need a program that helps you understand it very well. If it teaches you to understand, then you'll be better prepared to teach your own kids. Perhaps, you should get the program you are considering and go through it by yourself first. If you are learning the same day as she, then that could get frustrating.

 

Is your husband a math person? Could he help you both? I use my dh quite a bit when it comes to history because that's his major. He teaches world and US history in public school.

 

I hope you find what works for you!

[Jami]

Hi Jessica,

 

I don't have any great new insights, you've received some good advice on this topic already.

 

We were using Horizons with ds last year. And I felt like he wasn't really understanding things the way I wanted him too. I decided it was a spiral issue in part, though I do think Horizons can move quickly at times and then using something supplemental till the child is ready can be a wise choice. But for him, I really saw the need to spend more time practicing individual concepts. So I sat down with a few programs and chose Rod and Staff for us. It's not as pretty as Horizons and *feels* like we're behind our friends using Horizons and Saxon, but he's understanding the way numbers and fact families work together better. He sees more patterns.

 

Now dd is another case. She's using R&S too, since I keep them together. But I think any program would have worked for her. Just the way any reading program would have worked. Ds had to learn each phonetic rule and practice them before things clicked, but dd taught herself with a mix of phonics and whole-words and then was able to extrapolate back to the phonetic rule. Math is the same way. She can see the rules and patterns just by doing the problems over and over again, but ds needs them explicitly taught and practiced.

 

I don't know if any of that resonates with what you're seeing.

 

Good luck with your decision.

 

Jami

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jessica,

 

I'm sure you'll find just the right situation for your family. A couple things that might help keep perspective:

 

1) switching after a couple years of feeling something isn't working is NOT the same as switching ever 3 months.

2) school children switch programs all the time with few/no ill effects and likely just as many positive effects

3) switching may make all the difference in the world for y'all

4) you might try working the curriculum as written

5) K-8 math does not take 8 years to learn so if you struggle a time, it doesn't mean she's off for life.

 

I have no doubt you'll do fine regardless of your choice. And the fact that you are agonizing (to a degree) is a good thing. You simply REALLY care how it all will work out for your child.

 

Best to you :)

[G5052]

I've tutored math at all levels in the past, and frequently (but not always) 3rd graders who have problems don't truly have their math facts down and grasp just what adding and subtracting is. Or sometimes they have the facts, but carrying and regrouping/borrowing gets them because they don't grasp what it really means.

 

I think you need to look at a scope-and-sequence from any of the major publishers and pinpoint what her areas of trouble are first. Maybe you do need to switch curriculum, but maybe you need to step away from all curriculum and focus on just her weak areas for awhile.

[Lori D.]

chanda7,

We went with Singapore after finishing Miquon with our math-minded son. It was an excellent match for him, and the two programs are not as different in perspective as you might think. Singapore is hands down the best program I've seen for teaching "math thinking" and in teaching real understanding/setting up/solving of word problems (real life problems!) Singapore is extremely reasonable in price as well. And of course, if you can get a math program for free (Ray's), who can turn that down?! : ) BEST of luck in finding what works best for your family! Warmly, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Jessica: hugs and encouragement as you make your math decisions, and step out in changing curriculum. I know that is an especially hard decision for you. One thing for sure: I know you'll research, learn and grow from this -- who knows; maybe through your own learning journey you'll end up as a math tutor for others! ;)

 

We ended up going through 5 math programs in 5 years with our younger son who struggles with math before finding what works for him; a frustrating experience, BUT... we ended with a program that works for him, and *I* learned so much about how math works and how to teach math by learning all the different ways to teach it, that I'm a lot more adaptable and confident now in teaching not only math, but other subjects as well, even ones new to me. God grew me! :001_smile: Hugs, Lori D.

[King Alfred Academy]

Your posts show great insight into your kids and I understand the "fear". You want to do what is best for your kids! :001_smile:

 

In you blog post, you mentioned playing games and it taking a long time to get math done. What if you had Camille play the games while you are making lunch or for a quiet time activity. Since she says math is her favorite subject, she might enjoy that. We love the Right Start math games. We were just playing the games as they were presented to us in the manuals, but I recently received the big "300 math games" book Ms. Cotter wrote. It is fantastic! Lots and lots of games. They are helping my ds solidify his math facts and in a fun way...not that it always has to be fun, but it's working!

 

Oh...and here is a site that offers a math challenge (I think every week) in a living sort of way. Might be fun for you to try.

 

Anyhow, I hope you will find peace soon with your decision.

[sagira]

Nice site, King Alfred Academy!

 

Trivium, I know it must be frustrating where you are right now, but as someone else mentioned, the growth process can be and stretching beyond our comfort zone is challenging.

 

It is commendable that you care so deeply and want the best for your children :grouphug:

 

Oh, and don't totally ditch Horizons completely, as you may find out it fits your ds perfectly -- each of our children is unique ;)

[abbeyej]

... I don't want to switch programs, I've read too many times where others feel they have done a great disservice to their children by switching programs but I'm hoping we fit into the category where switching was the best thing we could have done....

 

I really don't *think* you're doing that level of switching... I mean, if you go back and read those threads where people regret the switching they did, they're often changing math programs every year or more. A switch or two in the elementary years isn't going to cripple a student -- especially if it's what they *need* to really grasp and understand the material.

 

So yes, it can be a big problem when I child does a little of this, a little of that... But three years of one program, and then a change... That's in an entirely different league.

 

And you know I'm a fan of Horizons. :) But I'm also entirely comfortable teaching the concepts of elementary mathematics (which is pretty ironic given how spotty my own elementary math education was -- perhaps that'll even be a comfort to you!)... I also agree with Michelle about not crossing out problems (though I have *occasionally* done that when my kids were very comfortable with the material and we were doing multiple lessons per day).

 

But it sounds like Horizons is no longer the best program for you and C. That's *okay*. It isn't a program that really walks you through *how* to present concepts...

 

A thoughtful change is not the same as "curriculum hopping". :)

Edited November 3, 2008 by abbeyej

[arcara]

3rd grade was the point when I realized our math program wasn't working, and it was mainly that she wasn't solid in her math facts. We were using MCP, and switched to Saxon. Now, I'm happily using Saxon for her younger sister instead. This story doesn't help at all, I know!

 

But, I wanted to say that you shouldn't feel bad about switching. It's obviously something that you've given lots of thought to.

 

I also loved reading about the math lab on your blog. That's really gotten my brain in planning mode this morning!

[bethben]

We were into year 2 of Horizons math when I noticed that ds was becoming just like his mom - knew how to plug stuff into a formula but beyond that - math was confusing. I noticed it when I told him to add 12+10 in his head. He couldn't do it and could of if he had written it down. We also used to skip half the problems in the math book. So, we switched. Granted, we only had 1 1/2 years of Horizons math under our belt which is a little different, but we switched to Singapore math. He wound up having to go back a "grade" , but zipped through it quickly.

 

Ds is really understanding how math works, not just how to plug numbers into formulas. He's finally gotten used to word problems which don't freak him out. It does go quickly and sometimes we just park ourselves on a certain concept for a while if he doesn't get it, but the lessons are SHORT. We do all the problems. There is a teacher's manual made by sonlight that is very easy to use. So, we loved Horizons in the color and the spiral, but are finding Singapore to be much more effective and ds is really mastering the material and doesn't need spiral as much because of that.

 

Yes- just another thing to consider. It's a big decision to make. The grass sometimes looks greener on the other side.

 

Beth

[Storm Bay]

Now that I've seen your blog post, I understand why you're not comfortable with Singapore Math;, I chose it because it was recommended to me for my dc. I'm mainly posting because we found switching math programs to be such a huge success for us, but we didn't switch every three months, and stayed with what worked. I think that often our gut is correct when it's not overrided by fear.

 

I realize you don't want to go with MUS, and think that you should go with what you feel you can teach from that your dd will understand. I fought against it myself for various reasons, but have found it a great second program. I don't worry about how my dc test when they're 8 as much as what they're retaining. Testing is a separate skill and I treat it as such.

 

If you can take a look at the program yourself before buying, that would be a big plus. When it came to Algebra, we found many recommendations by some stellar homeschooling mothers just didn't pan out for us at all.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Karin

[Jami]

If you can take a look at the program yourself before buying, that would be a big plus. When it came to Algebra, we found many recommendations by some stellar homeschooling mothers just didn't pan out for us at all.

 

I agree with this. Do you have a homeschool store anywhere around you where you could sit down with several programs? I spent over 2 hours one Saturday at our local used curr. store and just compared a few programs...student books, teacher's manual, etc. for the next 2-3 grades so I could get a good feel for how things were presented and where they were going.

[sweetbaby]

If I'm going to teacher her a concept, I feel I need to understand it myself and be able to present the concept in more than one way. She should be able to teach me the concept after she has learned it. Math narration, lol. She will do anything I tell her but she doesn't understand why she's doing it AND she's unable to identify what she needs to do with a mixture of problems even with concepts she's been doing for a long time.

 

Jessica, I totally understand how you are feeling. I have recently experienced the same feelings with our twins and our current math curriculum. I'm not a curriculum hopper either. I looked at MOTL also and lurked around the yahoo group for info as well as some others. Although, I feel that MUS is calling us, it's hard to drop that ps way of thinking in regards to grade levels or standardized tests in order to see the "big" picture. I want my dc to understand the "why" also. I think the time and effort that I have placed into educating my children would be in vain if I didn't ensure this.

[amlee]

jessica - i would go with what your heart is telling you

 

i homeschooled my older son through 8th grade (he is now in 10th and in his second year at a private school)

from k through 8, he used four different (yikes!) math programs (with the "key to" workbooks thrown in as well)

we tried saxon, math-u-see, scott foresman, and singapore (in which he went half-way through nem-1)

he tested out of algebra 1 at his school, has completed geometry (with a 100% average), and is currently maintaining a 100% average in algebra 2 (with 50% of the class actually FAILING at this point in the semester)

all this to say that: changing math programs did NOT have an adverse effect on him!! :)

in fact, i think it may have been beneficial to experience different approaches to math

 

i am currently homeschooling my younger son (who is in 5th grade)

he had worked exclusively with singapore from the beginning

although he is good at math (especially mental math - i struggle with getting him to show his work), we were behind in terms of level because he doesn't really enjoy math (although he has scored well on standardized tests)

in fact, he actually dreaded doing it

this has weighed on me heavily over the past 6 months

we started supplementing with the "key to" workbooks last year

and this year i took a bold step and switched him to teaching textbooks

despite all of the reviews criticizing its lack of "meatiness", it seems quite thorough to me, the author has very impressive credentials, and my son is enjoying himself and whizzing through the program!

 

so . . . have i worried about switching programs? YES!

have i fretted about choosing the right math for my son(s)? YES!

have i regretted my choices in the long run? NO! (because i think i just knew when it was time to make a change)

 

good luck to you

you are a good mom, you know your daughter best, you will do the right thing

[amlee]

i just wanted to add that i agree with all of the posters who have said to reinforce the math facts

flash cards, math windows, etc for the multiplication tables have been tremendously effective with my 10yo, something he definitely needed to do

 

also, just to clarify - i actually sit down with my son to do teaching textbooks (even though he could easily do it on his own)

we listen to the lesson together and i make comments when necessary

and then i sit nearby while he does the problems completely on his own

(he seems to like having me there)

 

i am fairly good at math and my husband is an electrical engineer who used to tutor advanced math to college students

however, he has only acted to facilitate and nudge our sons in the right direction when they are struggling with a math concept

[buddhabelly]

In your blog post you said that you found Singapore confusing. But have you looked at the Home Instructor Guides? I would suggest ordering the textbook and workbook for 3A, plus the Home Instructor Guide, from Rainbow Resource. If you don't care for it, you can send it right back. I think it's worth your perusal.

 

You don't HAVE to do Challenging Word Problems if it scares you. If you did want CWP, you could always start with CWP 2.

 

Good luck (again)!

 

Julie

[Trivium Academy]

Is that Primary Mathematics 3A?

[jg_puppy]

If you are going to consider Singapore. I would start by looking at the placement tests.

 

http://www.singaporemath.com/Placement_s/12.htm

 

Jan

[Ummto4]

Jessica, from your blog post it seems that you're moving in the right direction - getting books on how to teach math.

 

What I think you also need to do is to teach Camille mental math.

This means you have to teach strategy. Teaching strategy can be awkward and confusing, especially if you are not used to it. But it's a huge asset especially if your dd decided to become a scientist.

 

Now, I only have experience with my first grader who is a RS-er and Math Mammoth-er. Both give strategy to do mental math. But the strongest of the two is RS (obviously), e.g. when teaching him addition with the sum below 10, at the end, he just needs to memorize three facts: 4+3, 3+3, and 4+4. The rest is strategy.

 

One thing you might also want to do if you don't want your daughter to do too many drills is to use either math games or do drill orally everyday. E.g. from my son's lesson: when trying to solidify concept x + 1 = the next number of x, I use oral drills on counting up and also ask him what is e.g. 5+1, 1+8, etc. Same with x + 2 (the next even or odd #).

 

I don't have experience with moving with math, math on the level and math-u-see. But, since I'm an RS-er, I of course suggest RS (or at least activities with abacus. Abacus is a priceless manipulative !).

[Storm Bay]

Is that Primary Mathematics 3A?

 

If you do decide to lean this way, in addition to the Home Education guides, or whatever they're called (as you can tell, I don't use those) there's a fabulous book you could probably use with any word problems called The Essential Parents' Guide to Primary Maths by Dr. Fong Ho Kheong. Even though the subtitle is Strategies for solving challenging Maths Problems(sic), it is a great help in solving word problems in any Primary Math. I would like to point out that if you search Primary Mathematics you may come up with more than what we all call Singapore Math here.

 

This book has thee sections: "The Heuristic Approach" (Guess & Check, use patter, use lateral thinking, use deductive thinking, etc.); "The Model Approach" (Equal Concept, comparison Concept, etc); "Challenging Examination Problems." There is an answer key in the back, but not a solutions guide.

[mycalling]

Jessica, in your Math Switcheroo picture, you have a place value poster. Where did you buy it? Also, that huge pocket organizer looks great! Where did you get that?

Edited November 4, 2008 by MyCalling

[Trivium Academy]

The place value poster is actually a set of early math charts that you can stand up or hang

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=451844&netp_id=340447&event=EBRN&item_code=WW&view=details

 

The pocket chart was an unused at that time calendar set that I repurposed for a math wall, it isn't ideal- I just used what I had.

 

I reuse the wall pockets for whatever purpose I can. :)

[melissel]

Jessica, I'm sure you've thought of this, but have you looked at Right Start? Even if you had to go back a level or two and build up again, it would go very quickly, and has a strong focus on mental math. I shake in my boots when I think about how to teach this subject. I'm OK with mental math, but to actually TEACH someone else to do it? But every time I've been afraid of getting to the next level (to the point of thinking DD would be better off in school), when I actually get there to teach it, it all just falls into place. I can actually see the progress DD has made in visualizing math. It blows my mind, being a word girl myself :D

 

I know the ideal program for each kid is so varied based on the kid herself, but IMO, the combination of the teaching method, manipulatives, games, abacus, etc. is like alchemy. For my DD, they constitute the perfect program. And if you're leaning toward the CM style, I think RS is also highly recommended in those circles.

 

Good luck in your search!

[Mary in GA]

Hi Jessica,

I've not followed these posts very closely, so I hope I'm not repeating anyone! And I looked at your blog-wow!! I used MWM w/ds (now in college taking calc 2!) up through about 5th grade when we began integrating Singapore Math. I still use it in parts w/ my younger dds. It was a good fit for us because it taught to mastery, didn't review too much, and with each level covering 2 grades we had the option of continuing more in depth on a topic if ds was inclined. I chose it for him initially because, when we pulled him out of ps at end of 2nd, he was a very busy/wiggly boy. MWM was a good fit for him because there was so much for him to get his hands on, and he learned through mostly through doing. Also the b&w pages were far less distracting to him than the pretty colorful ones that I liked.

 

I only supplement with MWM some for middle dd. She developed a severe "allergy" to math manipulatives when she was in 1st:-( I think they're fun. I'm using RS A w my Ker, and while I like the philosophy behind it, I find it a bit disjointed. I have read here that subsequent levels get better. IMO there is no more logically organized tham SM, but it is not for everyone. Having been through it 2x at some levels now, I am really comfortable with it. Also, I always end up combining programs!

 

My circumstances don't sound anything like yours, and I've really rambled on. I just wanted to try to give you some idea about MWM. It's really underrated. Good luck with your decision. I know this is hard. I seem to have one subject for ea dc that I really agonize over the curriculum choice! Blessings.

Mary

[gandpsmommy]

I'm coming in really late on this thread, as I have had to take a board break recently to devote more time to actually homeschooling and taking care of my house and family, but I just had to jump in and share my thoughts because I can very much identify with what you described that you are feeling right now.

 

Last year I started to feel that we really needed something different for math. We were using Singapore as our core program and Miquon as a supplement. It worked well for K5, but in first, I just started having this feeling that we needed a change. We needed something that would help me to teach her mathematical concepts and the thinking behind the facts, not just introduce the facts and expect her to plug them into to different problems and memorize them. After much angst over switching, much thought, much second guessing and doubting, I decided to try Righstart Math. And I am so thrilled, so grateful, so relieved this year that I made the change.

 

I'm not trying to imply that Righstart is necessarily the right program for you and your daughter, but I encourage you to explore and try to find a program that will be a better fit for you. It has made a dramatic difference for us. Instead of agonizing over how I can get her to memorize facts, I have been empowered and equipped to help her understand the concepts and practice them so that memorization follows. I can see her mental math skills developing in amazing ways, and I feel much more confident that she is getting a strong foundation in math.

 

Last year, when I was starting to feel the unrest and dissatisfaction with our math curr. and wanted to find a different approach, I had a difficult time articulating exactly why I felt that way or even what in particular we were seeking, but I had a sense of all that and it lead me to the right program. I would encourage you to keep looking around and trying to find what you are seeking. Good luck!