Study comparing online courses and in person courses

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought this has some interesting details.  

 

http://educationnext.org/promises-and-pitfalls-online-education/

 

tl;dr  - in comparisons of live real life classes and asynchronous online classes (same content, but with a recording of the instruction), students in online classes had lower performance.  

 

This tracks our own experience.  Asynchronous courses are a challenge and have to be approached with a lot of diligence.  

[8filltheheart]

For us, it has really depended on the student. My oldest Dd did not like online classes and found them much harder than in-person classes. A couple of others had zero problems with online and actually preferred the freedom of watching the class at whatever time they felt like it.

 

My 18 yr old Dd has still never stepped foot into a classroom. I think she will really find it much easier that way than any course she has ever taken. She had a perfect 100 in her online stats class, but I think she will just like in-person.

[G5052]

I teach asynchronous college classes and live online classes for grades 7-10.

 

Hands down, I get more "done" in the live online classes. Out of 70+ students, I had only two F's.

 

In comparison, I taught 100+ college students January-May, and had quite a few drops and about 25% failed.

 

College students perpetually think that online is easier, but it's actually HARDER. I teach web design, so they have to wrestle with teaching themselves and a lot of technical troubleshooting. For many, doing in-class exercises and having a professor help is going to be much more effective. The college sets certain milestones and requires that I drop them if they don't meet them. The first milestone is an automatic refund of their tuition, and after that a "W." That said, I have a good number of students who are doing their entire degree that way, and many are a semester or two away from graduating. It can be done.

Edited June 15, 2017 by G5052

[regentrude]

Any comparison is meaningless without correcting for the student population who signs up for either.

 

I teach online and live sections of the same class. The biggest driver for the performance difference is self selection of the student population enrolled in the online class.

Students who are already underperforming are more likely to sign up for an online class for several reasons: they think it is easier; they missed their sign up date and the seats in the live casses are taken; they failed the course and have to repeat, but didn't check their grades and end up signing up shortly before the new semester when live classes are full.

The biggest obstacle my online students self-report is difficulty staying focused when they are watching lectures on their computer. Many lack the discipline to close all other windows and focus on the lecture and are instead running the lecture in a little corner on the screen while engaging in social media.

 

Online lectures can be fabulous for students who possess the necessary discipline to pay attention. They can help students work around scheduling conflicts, and close captioning and the ability to rewatch helps students with learrning disabilities or lack of English language skills.

But they won't work for many students who need the accountability of an in seat class to focus and attend. 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by regentrude

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree, depends on the student population, the individual student, etc.

 

I do better with an in-person class.  I can function with an on-line class and do well but I prefer an in person class and tend to retain more.

 

DS does pretty badly with on-line classes.  He needs more direct feedback, more interaction, more accountability, etc.  He did better in a regular class room.

 

DD?  She thrives in on-line classes.  She did need a lot of help getting organized and staying on top of assignments when she first started and probably will always have to create quite a few systems for outside scaffolding (such as alarms on her phone/scheduling systematic review/etc) but she just does so much better with an on-line class.  Even self-paced classes work very well for her.  And she is a very enthusiastic student now, far more than when she was still in brick and mortar classes.

[Kassia]

I agree that it depends on the student (and the instructor).  I had one son who preferred online classes and another who preferred to go to class.  They've had some great/bad online classes and great/bad lecture classes.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One reason I liked the study is that it compared so many students across the same courses. So they were not comparing a live class and an online class for different subjects.

 

They did point out that stronger students had little to no difference. The weaker the student the larger the difference in outcomes between libe and online.

 

I think online classes can be really good experiences, especially when the alternative is no class. I also think some people sign up for online courses thinking they will be less work, and miss noticing how much effort they need to put into staying focused and on top of the course. I think this is something to be particularly aware of as homeschoolers. Outsourcing instruction doesn't mean washing your hands of supervision or checking on progress.

[Lanny]

I have pointed out, several times, in WTM threads, when people were inquiring about "Online" courses, the difference between Asynchronous courses and Synchronous courses.  The "Online" courses DD takes from TTUISD are all  Asynchronous courses. It is my belief those are harder than Synchronous courses. 

[Lanny]

My only experience with an "Online" course was a 2 week MOOC from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.  It was Asynchronous. There were requirements that must be completed, and that does put pressure on one, to get everything done on time... I hope they will repeat 2 courses they've offered in the past and I will block off the time needed to complete them successfully.     http://erau.edu/

[Myra]

Lately, I have seen tv ads for online degrees esp. for UNH (University of New Hampshire).

 

What's the academic rep for a online Masters Degree vs brick-and-mortar Master Degree programs? 

 

Do employers value each equally?

 

Would a PhD program later give equal weight to online vs brick-and-mortar Master degrees?

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

One reason I liked the study is that it compared so many students across the same courses. So they were not comparing a live class and an online class for different subjects.

 

They did point out that stronger students had little to no difference. The weaker the student the larger the difference in outcomes between libe and online.

 

I think online classes can be really good experiences, especially when the alternative is no class. I also think some people sign up for online courses thinking they will be less work, and miss noticing how much effort they need to put into staying focused and on top of the course. I think this is something to be particularly aware of as homeschoolers. Outsourcing instruction doesn't mean washing your hands of supervision or checking on progress.

Exactly. That was one thing I had to really wrap my brain around when the kids first signed up for on-line classes.  I was only used to public school classes and MWF or T TH classes in college.  I was not used to an on-line format or only meeting once a week and everything else having to be on the student's shoulders for scheduling when to do what needed to be done.  I was used to classes where you had no choice but to sit and listen because you were sitting in a room with a bunch of other people, not your own home.  Also, the teacher provided a lot of scaffolding by reminding you when assignments were due and providing structure within the classroom and significant feedback on a regular basis.  There was also competition to do well, etc.  

 

An on-line once a week class with elementary/middle school kids was a bit of a shock to me.  I realized (although it should have been obvious in hind sight) that my kids taking an on-line once a week class was actually a lot MORE work for me initially.  First, they had no idea how to keep track of assignments or schedule themselves weekly review or plot out the parts of a project so they weren't rushing through at the last minute.  The teacher would give instruction but only once a week.  If there was confusion the kids had to take the time to email the teacher for clarification or note when one on one office time was available to chat and then actually remember to do so.  Frequently once the class was over we were rushing to do whatever else was on our schedule and contacting the teacher was forgotten until way into the week.  Also, instead of it being on my time table with my materials it was on the teacher/provider's time table with their materials.  I had to work hard to help the kids set up successful systems and to help them stay on top of things.  That took a lot of time and consistency.  

 

I do think a  lot of parents just starting this journey think if they outsource through an on-line class, synchronous or asynchronous, that they can take that one thing off their plate and focus harder on other areas.  Unless they have a very highly organized kiddo that does great with self-motivation and executive function and does well pretty much teaching themselves, it is not going to be something they can just turn over to the student to handle.  Some kids do well in this format because they inherently have those skills/that temperament but lots of kids don't.  Most are going to need a lot of help from the parent, at least until they develop those skills.  Way more in many instances than if they were attending a physical class, especially one that meets more than once a week.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Exactly. That was one thing I had to really wrap my brain around when the kids first signed up for on-line classes.  I was only used to public school classes and MWF or T TH classes in college.  I was not used to an on-line format or only meeting once a week and everything else having to be on the student's shoulders for scheduling when to do what needed to be done.  I was used to classes where you had no choice but to sit and listen because you were sitting in a room with a bunch of other people, not your own home.  Also, the teacher provided a lot of scaffolding by reminding you when assignments were due and providing structure within the classroom and significant feedback on a regular basis.  There was also competition to do well, etc.  

 

An on-line once a week class with elementary/middle school kids was a bit of a shock to me.  I realized (although it should have been obvious in hind sight) that my kids taking an on-line once a week class was actually a lot MORE work for me initially.  First, they had no idea how to keep track of assignments or schedule themselves weekly review or plot out the parts of a project so they weren't rushing through at the last minute.  The teacher would give instruction but only once a week.  If there was confusion the kids had to take the time to email the teacher for clarification or note when one on one office time was available to chat and then actually remember to do so.  Frequently once the class was over we were rushing to do whatever else was on our schedule and contacting the teacher was forgotten until way into the week.  Also, instead of it being on my time table with my materials it was on the teacher/provider's time table with their materials.  I had to work hard to help the kids set up successful systems and to help them stay on top of things.  That took a lot of time and consistency.  

 

I do think a  lot of parents just starting this journey think if they outsource through an on-line class, synchronous or asynchronous, that they can take that one thing off their plate and focus harder on other areas.  Unless they have a very highly organized kiddo that does great with self-motivation and executive function and does well pretty much teaching themselves, it is not going to be something they can just turn over to the student to handle.  Some kids do well in this format because they inherently have those skills/that temperament but lots of kids don't.  Most are going to need a lot of help from the parent, at least until they develop those skills.  Way more in many instances than if they were attending a physical class, especially one that meets more than once a week.

 

FWIW, this is not unlike my experience with a few students when I taught in a coop.  There were a few who would not do readings and homework assignments, or whose work looked like it had been thrown together the morning before the class.  

 

In both of the severe cases, the parents were totally unaware of the fact that their kid was not turning assignments in.  I'm not sure what I would do differently if I were teaching this again.  I would probably offer an option for parents to receive the same email communications their kids were getting.  

 

One thing that Lukeion does that I find interesting is to have a weekly email listing "gold, silver and bronze" level scores for quizzes with the names of students at that level.  They also give a breakout of how many were in the 90-100 range, 80-89, and below 80.  It is an easy feedback to know if you are not performing up to the level of the rest of the class.

[teachermom2834]

My three oldest have taken online classes throughout high school. For the first two it served a need when no quality live class was available. Those two always preferred and found live classes easier to do well in. My third loves online classes and can carry a full load from multiple providers with no issues and actually enjoys it. It is also true that the third is the most academically driven and interested. The older two are good students with career goals but they don't love learning. The one that loves online classes just loves learning and academics in a different way.

 

My dh has been teaching online asynchronous physics courses for a community college for over ten years. The quality of students he gets is very poor. The seem to have always signed up because they don't have the time or motivation to attend in person. At least half of every class has serious issues with completing the class that they were aware of before signing up. They just thought because it is online they could make it work. For example, nearly every semester he gets an email from a student getting married and taking a honeymoon in the middle of the semester. The student is emailing saying she/he won't be able to complete the assignments for several weeks for that reason. Also common are extended family vacations that mean the student misses midterms and finals, planned surgeries, etc. I just do not think most people sign up for in person college classes with the intent to take a month off and miss the midterm. I guess they might but they would also be unsuccessful. For some reason there is the expectation that an online class will be flexible and that the instructor will work with someone who is having a baby during midterms and won't be back for a few weeks.

 

Dh actually has zero flexibility to change midterms and finals even if he is sympathetic. He generally lets them know what they need to do to pass the class while taking a zero on whatever they will miss. These students generally accept the option of taking zeros and then often fail or get Ds at best. So these are not students driven to excellence to start with.

 

So there really is a difference in the expectation on the students' end as far as what the demands will be.

[regentrude]

My dh has been teaching online asynchronous physics courses for a community college for over ten years. The quality of students he gets is very poor. The seem to have always signed up because they don't have the time or motivation to attend in person. At least half of every class has serious issues with completing the class that they were aware of before signing up. They just thought because it is online they could make it work. For example, nearly every semester he gets an email from a student getting married and taking a honeymoon in the middle of the semester. The student is emailing saying she/he won't be able to complete the assignments for several weeks for that reason. Also common are extended family vacations that mean the student misses midterms and finals, planned surgeries, etc. I just do not think most people sign up for in person college classes with the intent to take a month off and miss the midterm. I guess they might but they would also be unsuccessful. For some reason there is the expectation that an online class will be flexible and that the instructor will work with someone who is having a baby during midterms and won't be back for a few weeks.

 

Dh actually has zero flexibility to change midterms and finals even if he is sympathetic. He generally lets them know what they need to do to pass the class while taking a zero on whatever they will miss. These students generally accept the option of taking zeros and then often fail or get Ds at best. So these are not students driven to excellence to start with.

 

Some of this mirrors my experiences with my online class. However, I don't encounter people who plan on prolongued absences, since all my students also take in seat classes, and my course is blended and has a presence component.

 

I could imagine that the label "asynchronous" may confuse some of his students, because they may think asynchronous and self paced are the same thing. Some asynchronous online classes are self paced and let students to work ahead and complete the material on their own time line, which would allow a student to plan around an absence.

[teachermom2834]

Some of this mirrors my experiences with my online class. However, I don't encounter people who plan on prolongued absences, since all my students also take in seat classes, and my course is blended and has a presence component.

 

I could imagine that the label "asynchronous" may confuse some of his students, because they may think asynchronous and self paced are the same thing. Some asynchronous online classes are self paced and let students to work ahead and complete the material on their own time line, which would allow a student to plan around an absence.

That is true.

[JoJosMom]

That was an interesting read; thanks for posting OP.

 

I think that the authors make some good points and provide food for thought, certainly.  I find their study group to be a potential issue, though.  They pulled all of their data from DeVry, which is going to have a population heavily skewed (I think) to working adults.  That group is already likely to be stretched pretty thin.  The students within that population who chose online classes vs. live classes for time management reasons would then skew the results even more.  It seems to me that working adults trying to squeeze in a bachelor's degree with a full-time job and family pressures are already the group facing the most challenge; the results aren't a big surprise and it may be due more to the time pressures than course presentation.  Still, like I said, it is something to think about.

 

 

 

 

Edited because I changed some wording in the original post, left a comma, and killed a kitten. :crying:

Edited June 16, 2017 by JoJosMom

[MarkT]

It would be nice  if they looked at Florida High School students taking online classes versus traditional classroom. The high school students would come across the academic spectrum and they could survey using vocational, college prep and AP courses.

 

 

DeVry University does not represent that wide a spectrum. IMHO most would be better off at a CC.

[MarkT]

I see the same thing all the time at online charter schools. Parents enroll their kids and realize online is not for them. 

I just can't imagine parents using an online charter for Elementary school unless that child was too sickly to attend a classroom.  At that point, home-school would be a better choice.

[Caroline]

Georgia Virtual also has kids from across the academic spectrum. However, the majority of students in the on level classes are kids who have failed a class and need to make it up. The AP and honors classes aren't that way. The PE classes are full of kids who don't want to waste a class period on PE. I think a study could be designed, maybe using a value added model. But it would take some doing.

 

It would be nice if they looked at Florida High School students taking online classes versus traditional classroom. The high school students would come across the academic spectrum and they could survey using vocational, college prep and AP courses.

 

 

DeVry University does not represent that wide a spectrum. IMHO most would be better off at a CC.

[Arcadia]

What we found for our family was

- asynchronous online classes were great for traveling as kids aren't tied to a time and can do their lessons over breakfast or supper leaving the day free to visit places of interest or attend talks.

- live online classes were great for our kids social needs for verbal realtime interaction. The non text kind. They like hearing other people's voices even for my "Mr Rarely open his mouth".

- in person classes were great for age peers for recess and playtime. Basically complaining about similar pre-teen/teen issues like acne, homework, screen time and what have you.

- self-paced classes were great for areas of interest because my kids have the interest to keep them going and they can go as fast as they want to.

 

I did my hybrid MBA while I was working a 24/7 kind of tech job. It was online classes with two weeks of in class review tutorials before exams. People like the in class revision before exams because someone could host a three hour exam cram session at his/her house while significant other and kids socialize. It was two modules per semester so not a hectic pace but tiring for working people nonetheless who ate dinner in class.

 

I just can't imagine parents using an online charter for Elementary school unless that child was too sickly to attend a classroom. At that point, home-school would be a better choice.

We used an online charter for elementary because my kids intended to go back to B&M if we could get into the school walkable from home through open enrollment. Our assigned school is across the busy freeway while the walkable school is just down the residential road.

 

My district asked for transcripts from the online public charter and accepted all the subject accelerations at face value. AoPS wasn't accredited for UC then, but the school district has no problem with algebra in 4th grade on an online public charter transcript.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Some of this mirrors my experiences with my online class. However, I don't encounter people who plan on prolongued absences, since all my students also take in seat classes, and my course is blended and has a presence component.

 

I could imagine that the label "asynchronous" may confuse some of his students, because they may think asynchronous and self paced are the same thing. Some asynchronous online classes are self paced and let students to work ahead and complete the material on their own time line, which would allow a student to plan around an absence.

 

Is "asynchronous" a less definitive term or is it one that gets misapplied?  Does asynchronous really mean a course that doesn't have strict meeting times, but does have a schedule to follow?  Or does it also apply to classes that are essentially self-paced so long as everything is in by the end of the course?

[regentrude]

Is "asynchronous" a less definitive term or is it one that gets misapplied?  Does asynchronous really mean a course that doesn't have strict meeting times, but does have a schedule to follow?  Or does it also apply to classes that are essentially self-paced so long as everything is in by the end of the course?

 

"Asynchronous" merely means that students do not have to "attend" the online lecture at the same time as a live class. Synchronous online courses transmit the live lecture simultaneously and students must be logged on and watch during the same time the in seat students attend the classroom lecture. 

 

Self-paced classes are not the same.

In my asynchronous online class, students can watch the lectures at their convenience, but they must complete all assignments by the deadlines twice a week, take tests at the scheduled time (and, in my blended class, attend live discussion sections that run at a specific time). So, my course is not self paced; students can work ahead, but they cannot choose to take longer breaks or be behind.

The asynchronous calc course is similar; all it means is that there is no set time for lectures, but daily assignments are still due daily.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That was an interesting read; thanks for posting OP.

 

I think that the authors make some good points and provide food for thought, certainly.  I find their study group to be a potential issue, though.  They pulled all of their data from DeVry, which is going to have a population heavily skewed (I think) to working adults.  That group is already likely to be stretched pretty thin.  The students within that population who chose online classes vs. live classes for time management reasons would then skew the results even more.  It seems to me that working adults trying to squeeze in a bachelor's degree with a full-time job and family pressures are already the group facing the most challenge; the results aren't a big surprise and it may be due more to the time pressures than course presentation.  Still, like I said, it is something to think about.

 

 

 

 

Edited because I changed some wording in the original post, left a comma, and killed a kitten. :crying:

 

The issue of student population does matter.  Though I liked that they were able to look at so many students and have such large groups in each course.  

 

I think the take away is that online delivery isn't a panacea that every student will succeed at, and that some students will be especially poorly suited for handling an online class.  I think this matters, because there are groups out there that consider online instruction to be a blanket fix for education problems.  

 

My kids have used online classes.  In some cases they developed friendly relationships with kids who were in class after class with them.  On other cases they really struggled to understand the material (not only asynchronous, but also less well organized, with links in homework that were frequently outdated or dead).

 

And to be fair, their experience in dual enrollment classes was also mixed.  Chemistry was consistently good, with both older sons raving about how wonderful one instructor was.  English was a real disappointment.  That class was disorganized and provided minimal feedback on assignments.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I just can't imagine parents using an online charter for Elementary school unless that child was too sickly to attend a classroom.  At that point, home-school would be a better choice.

 

I frequently see people in Facebook homeschool groups asking about elementary level online homeschool curiculum.  Typically they are looking have a student who has struggled in the past and they are looking for a curriculum that will require minimal parental involvement.  I always wonder how well an online option works in these situations.  It doesn't seem like a combination that is destined for success.  

[Bluegoat]

The other factor IMO is what i the class about, and at what level?  And related to that - marks are really only an inexact way to determine what a stendent gets from a class - there are many less easily measured elemets as well though.

 

I can think of classes I took that would have been fine online.  But an online class will have a hard time replicating the environment of a deeper or more personal interaction in higher level classes.