DE for future engineering student

[teachermom2834]

We have free/cheap de in our state and our kids have liked taking advantage of it. Our first two went in with 30+ and 40+ hours of credit. For our family the emphasis was not on using it for early graduation but rather to allow some margin to double major, work, etc. I just say that to point out that our goal is not really for dc to spend less than 4 years in college.

 

Our next dc is the first one interested in engineering or possibly a math major. Looking ahead at de my gut tells me to have him use de to fulfill the gen ed requirements and for him to take the STEM classes at the university he ultimately attends. We have access to a private 4 year LAC for de but also a cc with a transfer agreement for engineering with the university. So, math and engineering classes taken de at the cc will transfer (whether they are equal quality I have no idea?)

 

I am interested in hearing how it worked out for your dc if they did de and then went on to an engineering major. Being able to focus on STEM classes at university and not having to worry about attending a concert for music appreciation , or getting together for a group project in English, or writing papers, etc. seems like a good idea to me. But I would love to hear how others used de in preparation for engineering school.

[MarkT]

Our next dc is the first one interested in engineering or possibly a math major. Looking ahead at de my gut tells me to have him use de to fulfill the gen ed requirements and for him to take the STEM classes at the university he ultimately attends. 

Unless DC goes to an elite college courses like Calc 1  and  Calc-based Physics 1 can be taken early for credit.  Of course, knocking off gen eds is also a good plan.

 

 

[teachermom2834]

I should have mentioned that I don't expect him to apply to

elite colleges. He will likely go to one of our in state public schools. He, in 8th grade already exceeded the ACT scores they publish as required for admittance to engineering. He is very bright but as a family we are budget minded and he is not into the type of extracurricular activities, etc that would make him a strong applicant to an elite school or for a highly competitive scholarship.

 

All that to say- we are not talking about highly competitive schools.

Edited May 31, 2017 by teachermom2834

[Sunshine State Sue]

Ds graduated HS with 69 CC credits.  He was able to go straight into Calc 2, but with 20/20 hindsight, I wouldn't recommend it.  His CC credits allowed him to not take 5 gen ed/free elective classes.  He's used the time to work towards a minor in computer science.  His major is mechanical engineering.  He definitely is glad he didn't have to take the gen ed classes.  He could have also chosen to take a lighter load some semesters.

 

He will very likely not be able to get the minor in CS because we weren't laser focused on it from the start.  He would need to squeeze in 2 more classes and he won't be able to do it.  With 20/20 hindsight, there was a class his 1st semester at school that wound up not useful towards the major or minor and one semester he took a lighter load.  I just mention this because if there is a thought of double major or minor, it's helpful to think about it sooner rather than later.

 

Good luck!

[teachermom2834]

Ds graduated HS with 69 CC credits. He was able to go straight into Calc 2, but with 20/20 hindsight, I wouldn't recommend it. His CC credits allowed him to not take 5 gen ed/free elective classes. He's used the time to work towards a minor in computer science. His major is mechanical engineering. He definitely is glad he didn't have to take the gen ed classes. He could have also chosen to take a lighter load some semesters.

 

He will very likely not be able to get the minor in CS because we weren't laser focused on it from the start. He would need to squeeze in 2 more classes and he won't be able to do it. With 20/20 hindsight, there was a class his 1st semester at school that wound up not useful towards the major or minor and one semester he took a lighter load. I just mention this because if there is a thought of double major or minor, it's helpful to think about it sooner rather than later.

 

Good luck!

Thank you! I feel silly even posing the question as he is just a rising 9th grader but if we are going to make smart use of de, a bit of planning ahead really is necessary. I am, of course, open to him changing his mind but he is a good student who enjoys school and his aptitude is lopsided toward math. It is difficult to imagine him in anything other than STEM. I appreciate that you point out the importance of looking ahead.

[Kassia]

My ds graduated high school with over 60 DE credits and just graduated magna cum laude from college with a Computer Science and Engineering B.S. with a minor in business.  As a DE student, he completed all of his college science requirements, and almost all of his college math and general ed requirements.  It worked out great for him.  It still took him four full years to get his degree because he had no engineering classes in high school and the engineering classes at his university were sequential so he couldn't double up.  But, he was able to take only 12-15 credits/semester instead of 15-18 because so many classes transferred and he was able to get a minor as well.  

 

His twin brother did not start college with as many credits and was not able to graduate with the minor he hoped to get.  He just didn't have room in his schedule.  He majored in electrical engineering and wanted to earn a minor in biomedical engineering.  Maybe if he had known he wanted to do that right away, he could have planned better as the earlier poster commented but, by the time he knew what he wanted, he just couldn't squeeze it all in.  

[Lori D.]

Totally agreeing with Sue in St Pete.

 

The Mechanical Engineering program at our local University is 128-130 credits. Of that, 24 credits are general education credits (2 courses = Writing 101 & 102, 6 courses = various types of gen. ed.). So 40 courses overall, only 8 that are NOT Engineering-based. Knocking out gen. ed. credits will allow your DS to either take a lighter load each semester, OR, allow him time to either double major or pursue a minor.

 

Our DS#1 is just gearing up to head BACK to college for a second Bachelor's -- this time in Mechanical Engineering. Thankfully, it looks like all of DS's gen. ed. credits from his BA will transfer and count for this Engineering BS. And, also thankfully, he will be able to take the first 2 years of Engineering coursework at the community college and it will all transfer to the university's BS program.

 

However, like Erica H's son, the Engineering program at our university is so sequential that DS will STILL need 4 full years to complete the BS, in spite of having 30 transferable credits in gen. eds.

 

Right now for DS#1, not having to take those 8 gen. ed credits will allow him to only have to take 13-15 credits per semester, rather than the 16-18 credits each semester. That will allow DS to work part time to help pay for the degree. (Since he has a BA already, he will not be eligible for the PELL grants that are for students over 24yo. :( ) The way the upper division credits are structured, he *might* also be able to pull off a minor in Electrical Engineering without having to take additional credits. (Although, like Sue's son, he will need to watch that and plan for that when he transfers to the university as a junior.)

 

What is slightly tripping up DS is not having the required, Pre-Calculus, Calculus 1, Calculus 2, and Physics (Introductory Mechanics) credits, which are requirements for virtually *everything* else. So in addition to the gen. ed. credits, as MarkT mentioned, look at the university's program and find what specific Math courses and Physics or Engineering courses are the "gateway" pre-requisites for getting in to anything else, and see if you can knock out 2-3 of those types of classes in advance as well.

 

Just make SURE that whatever courses DS takes as dual enrollment WILL transfer to his university of choice AND COUNT towards the Engineering or Math degree program. Gen. ed. credits are usually the most flexible about that, and if you do a foreign language as dual enrollment, it will count as gen. ed. credits, and as your high school foreign language AND your DS might end up interested enough to take the foreign language as a minor in college, which can be a plus in the job market for working overseas. :)

 

Good luck, whatever DS decides! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lori D.

[teachermom2834]

Thanks everyone. These are the exact experiences I was looking for.

 

Interesting point, Lori D, about foreign language. That doesn't seem to be required for any of the degrees he is looking at and it isn't on the list of allowed gen ed classes. My kids have always done foreign language de but I am thinking of finding another way to meet that high school requirement, because it does not look like it will count for anything towards his degree. I am thinking our de classes could be better spent.

 

Just when you think you have it all figured out a kid comes along and does things a completely different way! I know I have time to figure this out but I also I could regret a failure to plan and think it through thoroughly.

 

Thanks!

[8filltheheart]

My oldest took English, cal, and chem DE. He was glad he did bc it allowed him to jump straight into his chemE courses. That gave him time more than anything else. He was able to co-op for 12 months and still graduate in 4 yrs. He attended full-time one summer session, so he took 7 semesters total. (Engineering courses are usually fall spring only, so being able to start them full swing freshman ur is what enabled him to focus on gen eds summer and stay on track.)

 

Fwiw, my ds DEed at a 4 yr university.

[Lori D.]

...foreign language. That doesn't seem to be required for any of the degrees he is looking at and it isn't on the list of allowed gen ed classes. My kids have always done foreign language de but I am thinking of finding another way to meet that high school requirement, because it does not look like it will count for anything towards his degree. I am thinking our de classes could be better spent.

 

Guess it makes it easy to cross THAT off the DE list. ;) Every bit helps as you try and figure out what's your best bet for DE. :)

[regentrude]

Our next dc is the first one interested in engineering or possibly a math major. Looking ahead at de my gut tells me to have him use de to fulfill the gen ed requirements and for him to take the STEM classes at the university he ultimately attends. ...

I am interested in hearing how it worked out for your dc if they did de and then went on to an engineering major. Being able to focus on STEM classes at university and not having to worry about attending a concert for music appreciation , or getting together for a group project in English, or writing papers, etc. seems like a good idea to me. But I would love to hear how others used de in preparation for engineering school.

 

I am an advisor for our department, and this comes up fairly often with my advisees. While it sounds good in theory to "concentrate on STEM classes", there are some issues to consider:

 

For a STEM degree, most courses are sequenced and must be taken in order. It may not be possible to compress the schedule. Students who do not have to take any ged ed courses may find themselves with too few credit hours because they cannot take the next course level since the prerequisite has not been fulfilled.  Some courses are offered only in either spring or fall, and students who are off sequence may find themselves stuck in a limbo because there are no major courses for them to take.

Also, taking 16-18 hours worth of math intense STEM classes may not be in the student's best interst, and he may do better by being able to switch the brain to a lit or history class.

 

In general, I have not seen "getting the gen ed out of the way" to be beneficial for our students.

[MamaSprout]

I am an advisor for our department, and this comes up fairly often with my advisees. While it sounds good in theory to "concentrate on STEM classes", there are some issues to consider:

 

For a STEM degree, most courses are sequenced and must be taken in order. It may not be possible to compress the schedule. Students who do not have to take any ged ed courses may find themselves with too few credit hours because they cannot take the next course level since the prerequisite has not been fulfilled.  Some courses are offered only in either spring or fall, and students who are off sequence may find themselves stuck in a limbo because there are no major courses for them to take.

Also, taking 16-18 hours worth of math intense STEM classes may not be in the student's best interest, and he may do better by being able to switch the brain to a lit or history class.

 

In general, I have not seen "getting the gen ed out of the way" to be beneficial for our students.

 

What is a good approach for DE? I too have an "eighth grader" this year who is well into high school classes and will probably go into math or engineering.

[teachermom2834]

I am an advisor for our department, and this comes up fairly often with my advisees. While it sounds good in theory to "concentrate on STEM classes", there are some issues to consider:

 

For a STEM degree, most courses are sequenced and must be taken in order. It may not be possible to compress the schedule. Students who do not have to take any ged ed courses may find themselves with too few credit hours because they cannot take the next course level since the prerequisite has not been fulfilled. Some courses are offered only in either spring or fall, and students who are off sequence may find themselves stuck in a limbo because there are no major courses for them to take.

Also, taking 16-18 hours worth of math intense STEM classes may not be in the student's best interst, and he may do better by being able to switch the brain to a lit or history class.

 

In general, I have not seen "getting the gen ed out of the way" to be beneficial for our students.

Thanks. I had thought of this, too. While I am not worried about compressing his schedule (not in a rush to graduate early) I was thinking more along the lines of having margin in his schedule to allow some flexibility. But this is the type of experience I was asking for. Thank you.

[regentrude]

What is a good approach for DE? I too have an "eighth grader" this year who is well into high school classes and will probably go into math or engineering.

 

For my own kids, I have used DE for subjects that I could not teach in my homeschool (foreign language) and for subjects my kids had a strong interest in (philosophy, astronomy, some literature for DS; physics and some literature for DD).

We did not plan it with a view of transfering credits. DD could not transfer anything; DS should end up being able to use some of his coursework.

 

From my experience as an advisor, I see that it is often beneficial to cover some requirements that are stand-alone courses which are not part of a sequence - for example, introductory chemistry for non majors who are only required to take one or two classes. Math is less ideal, because students don't typically transfer in the entire sequence of 4+ semesters and may have trouble jumping into the sequence mid-stream when course content and rigor of transfer courses are not a good match. Getting one or two gen ed requirements out of the way, such as required US history in my state, may be a good idea.

It is also a good to DE a course that has a bad reputation at the final university.

 

Also, having transfer credits allows students to choose certain higher level classes to fulfill some of their requirements. For example, our majors have a requirement for an upper level humanities course which can be fulfilled by a 300 level language class, but that works only if the studnet has taken the lower level prerequisite courses. Or an upper level philosophy of science course, which has the intro course as a prerequisite. 

 

So, if you plan on using the DE strategically to fit in with the degree program, I would work backwards from the couse requirements at the terminal university and identify courses that can transfer to fulfill certain stand alone requirements, prerequisites for uper level electives, or for a course that has a poor reputation at the final school. I would, however, not take all humanities and leave the student with only the STEM courses to take.

Edited May 31, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Thanks. I had thought of this, too. While I am not worried about compressing his schedule (not in a rush to graduate early) I was thinking more along the lines of having margin in his schedule to allow some flexibility. But this is the type of experience I was asking for. Thank you.

 

Margin and a lighter schedule are great, but beware that he cannot fall below 12 credit hours in order to maintain fulltime student status.

[teachermom2834]

Margin and a lighter schedule are great, but beware that he cannot fall below 12 credit hours in order to maintain fulltime student status.

Yes. I am aware of that. My kids don't do well with tons of spare time so that wasn't really what I was getting at either. Having some flexibility to take a lighter load(still full time) or take an easier elective or just pursue something else that might interest him was more what I had in mind. Thank you.

[retiredHSmom]

My oldest graduated with a mechanical engineering degree from our state university in May.  She took Pre-calculus and Calculus at our CC as DE.  She also took chemistry and electronics at the community college.  Now in our area many professors teach at both the CC and the State U so take that into consideration.  She did not feel that her CC left her unprepared.

 

My middle daughter graduated with a BS in Math.  She took Calc 1 & 2 at the community college with no ill effects.

 

[8filltheheart]

I would go to the 4 yr university your ds is considering and look at the 4 yr plan like this:

https://oucc.dasa.ncsu.edu/coe-14mebs-nosubplan-2161/

 

You can see rather easily which courses would be good options for meeting pre-reqs for allowing to start in-major courses freshman yr.  Check and see if there is a reciprocity agreement for those courses.

[Guest2]

At state schools around here, if he dual enrolls in Calc...it is only really a good idea if he can complete the sequence through calc 3. Calc 2 is the most difficult from all reports, and it would be a tough first semester. The state schools we looked at did not recommend taking AP credit for calc 1 either for that reason.

Another perspective would be to look at what would most help his GPA in the four year school. My ds was pretty happy to have government and history classes to help balance the advanced Math. If he had taken them for dual credit, his GPA would have suffered.

[teachermom2834]

I would go to the 4 yr university your ds is considering and look at the 4 yr plan like this:

https://oucc.dasa.ncsu.edu/coe-14mebs-nosubplan-2161/

 

You can see rather easily which courses would be good options for meeting pre-reqs for allowing to start in-major courses freshman yr. Check and see if there is a reciprocity agreement for those courses.

Our cc does have a direct transfer agreement with the university for all engineering programs so it is clear to see what will transfer. It is very helpful to have all that info laid out.

 

My older boys have done de at the local private LAC. It has worked well for them but the transfer of credits is much murkier. So I am thinking the cc is a better choice for this ds.

[teachermom2834]

At state schools around here, if he dual enrolls in Calc...it is only really a good idea if he can complete the sequence through calc 3. Calc 2 is the most difficult from all reports, and it would be a tough first semester. The state schools we looked at did not recommend taking AP credit for calc 1 either for that reason.

Another perspective would be to look at what would most help his GPA in the four year school. My ds was pretty happy to have government and history classes to help balance the advanced Math. If he had taken them for dual credit, his GPA would have suffered.

Thank you! I have thought of this angle especially if a minimum GPA needs to be kept for scholarships. So much to consider.

[MamaSprout]

At state schools around here, if he dual enrolls in Calc...it is only really a good idea if he can complete the sequence through calc 3. Calc 2 is the most difficult from all reports, and it would be a tough first semester. The state schools we looked at did not recommend taking AP credit for calc 1 either for that reason.

Another perspective would be to look at what would most help his GPA in the four year school. My ds was pretty happy to have government and history classes to help balance the advanced Math. If he had taken them for dual credit, his GPA would have suffered.

 

My older kiddos who dual enrolled encountered both issues from the flip side- bad transition from one Calc sequence into another, and all of their GPA boosting classes done.

[MarkT]

At state schools around here, if he dual enrolls in Calc...it is only really a good idea if he can complete the sequence through calc 3. Calc 2 is the most difficult from all reports, and it would be a tough first semester.

Unless it has changed since my Engineering college days - Calc 3 was considerably harder than Calc 2

[JanetC]

If you have a kid who is truly STEM focused, "saving" the math and science until they get out of DE and into their four year school is cutting them off from their strengths. At least at our house, the math and science DD is doing at CC is better than what she could do at home.

 

Take the DE classes that are the next logical step from where you are at the moment, and try to keep a balanced schedule of subjects as you would for any other high school year.

[zaichiki]

 

Just make SURE that whatever courses DS takes as dual enrollment WILL transfer to his university of choice AND COUNT towards the Engineering or Math degree program. Gen. ed. credits are usually the most flexible about that

Ds, who graduates this month, did both dual enrollment and concurrent enrollment in high school.  He's headed for mechanical/aerospace engineering. At university in the fall he will go directly into Calculus 3. Some of the university classes he took during high school will fulfill general ed requirements: writing, US History, American Literature, and Marine Science. He has also taken Intro to Engineering/Principles in Engineering type classes that will count. This means he will need to take fewer credits per semester for the first couple of years... or maybe he'll try a new class that strikes his fancy (he'll have the space in his schedule and the opportunity).

 

I will echo what Lori says: make sure the courses will count. (Although, HOW you make sure so early, when you don't know where they'll end up, I have no idea.) Maybe contact the admissions department at the universities you think will be most likely?

 

Good luck!

[teachermom2834]

If you have a kid who is truly STEM focused, "saving" the math and science until they get out of DE and into their four year school is cutting them off from their strengths. At least at our house, the math and science DD is doing at CC is better than what she could do at home.

 

Take the DE classes that are the next logical step from where you are at the moment, and try to keep a balanced schedule of subjects as you would for any other high school year.

This is how we handled de for my older two (not STEM) and I have no regrets. They took the courses that made sense either because I couldn't teach them and de was the best outsourced option or because they were interested. We always figured that it was a way of fulfilling the high school education and if anything transferred that was just bonus. My oldest ended up at a private LAC that accepted all 31 hours as electives so he didn't get out of any required courses but he has plenty of room in his schedule to focus on his areas of interest, get a minor, etc.

 

My second ds changed my thinking a bit as he pretty much knew where he would go while he still had three semesters of de left to do. He knows what will transfer and he is very much about checking off the boxes and making progress towards his ultimate degree. That said, he still is taking a few classes that probably will not count for anything in college just because I consider them part of completing his high school education. Knowledge and education and experience isn't really lost just because no college credit was granted. So, de is not only about credits to us.

 

All that said, this is my first STEM student and I don't want to do things like mess up the math sequence. While our cc does have an agreement with the university and he could get the first two years done through de, I am not looking to do that. I just want him to be able to utilize de some without it in the end working out as a disadvantage.

 

Thanks for the discussion. Lots to think about but it is all good. As a driven, capable student I know he will be okay even if we don't lay everything out perfectly.

[Guest2]

Sorry,trouble with quoting.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Silver Brook

[Guest]

 

I am interested in hearing how it worked out for your dc if they did de and then went on to an engineering major. Being able to focus on STEM classes at university and not having to worry about attending a concert for music appreciation , or getting together for a group project in English, or writing papers, etc. seems like a good idea to me. But I would love to hear how others used de in preparation for engineering school.

In my area, the norm for college prep high school is DE calc 2. DE is transferable to any state school, but state u places by sat and regents scores. Frankly most eng students get their butt kicked if they don't start in calc 1 or get to tuto ring for diff eq. The step up to reading an abstract text for the first time in their lives while concurrently taking chem and physics requires tutorng time they don't have.

 

English here is not DE,.its AP..that is a higher level than 101 and 102;students test out of those two with sat and ap scores.

Being an engineering major does not mean no papers or presentations. If speech is available, that's a good high school choice. Engineers do a lot of communicating in their professional lives and internships.

 

For my dc, DE and AP opened space for a related double major.

 

More important than finishing gen eds was mastering how to study, and how to write a lab report while in high school. That saved a lot of learning curve time.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My Computer Science major son both math, chemistry, and English at the local CC.  His intention was to be as well prepared to start the engineering department courses as possible.  Most of the students in his university calculus 1 course had already had calculus course experience during high school.

 

He was offered transfer credit for calculus and chemistry.  He took the credit for chemistry, since his degree only required one semester.  He retook calculus 1, because he wanted to be sure that he had the best foundation for that school's progression.  He didn't want to go into calculus 2 or engineering with some expected expertise missing.  I would not say he was the best prepared, because there are many talented students there.  He did find that he was well prepared, if the distinction makes sense.  He made Dean's list both semesters of freshman year, and was able to get his first choice of major when he declared Computer Science out of the freshman general engineering category.  (His school requires completion of 24 credits in required engineering dept courses before declaring a major.  A 3.0 gpa means your first choice is guaranteed.)

 

He also had AP credit for some online courses and courses I'd designed and taught.  This allowed him to meet a number of the wider university graduation requirements (sometimes called core courses, diversity credit or liberal education requirements).  Having met those requirements, he will be able to pick electives in future semesters without having to pick from specific categories.

 

Calculus, physics, and engineering majors courses can all be quite time intensive.  They also tend to use the same parts of the brain.  It can be restful to shift for a while to an English novel or a history reading.  

[Guest2]

Unless it has changed since my Engineering college days - Calc 3 was considerably harder than Calc 2

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was recommending finishing Calc 3 prior to admission to four year school. However, Calc 2 does have the repuation at our state flagship of being the most difficult weed out course. Whether it is because the work ramps up significantly or kids are starting at Calc 2 with AP or Dual Credit for Cal 1 I don't know.

[EKS]

Ds graduated HS with 69 CC credits.  He was able to go straight into Calc 2, but with 20/20 hindsight, I wouldn't recommend it.  

 

Similar story here--my son had 55 CC credits (quarter credits, so 11 courses).  He could have started in Calc 3 at his 4 year school, but instead he started back in Calc 1, which was a very good decision.

[Matryoshka]

Similar story here--my son had 55 CC credits (quarter credits, so 11 courses).  He could have started in Calc 3 at his 4 year school, but instead he started back in Calc 1, which was a very good decision.

 

Depends so much on the kid.  Dd decided to skip Calc 1 (she did the AB AP, not DE) and go right to Calc 2.  I myself did retake Calc 1 (and needed to), and told her lots of people did and it would be fine if she felt she'd like to review and get really solid - but she said she already felt really solid.  She's taken Calc 2 and 3 now, as well as the first semester of Discrete and found them quite straightforward.  She now wants to double-major in math (she's a CS major).

[MarkT]

Similar story here--my son had 55 CC credits (quarter credits, so 11 courses).  He could have started in Calc 3 at his 4 year school, but instead he started back in Calc 1, which was a very good decision.

The previous coursework must of been quite bad to have to go back to Calc 1 after Calc 3.

[EKS]

The previous coursework must of been quite bad to have to go back to Calc 1 after Calc 3.

 

He had Calc 1 and 2 (quarter system, so 4 quarters all together) at the CC, a C+ in Calc 2, and a gap year between CC and real college.  It wasn't the coursework, it was the kid and the circumstances.