economy questions

[choirfarm]

I don't understand this redistribution of wealth idea. My hubby spent 4 years in college, 4 years in medical school, 5 years in residency and then established his practice. We did not go out to eat for many years. The only time I got new clothes was when it was my birthday or Christmas and people bought them for me or I got money as a gift. I remember all of the girls going out to eat after Bible study and I went home because I could not afford to. We pay off our credit cards each month and only use them to acrue miles. We paid extra on our house until it was paid off, etc. We have tried to live responsibly and only within our means. Now our salary is nicer but we put money away for retirement, college saving and give a big chunk of our money to charity each year.. So, why should I get taxed more??? Why do we need to redistribute the money my dh works long, long hours and spent many many hours studying for (still does with CME and courses) to give to someone else??? Same thing with the bailout plans. We rented very cheap apartments in not great neigborhoods, bought houses that were way under our means, are still driving a nearly 20 year old HOnda Accord.. So why are our tax dollars bailing out people who bought more home than they could afford??? What happened to personal responsiblity.. Now the government has taken over the banks and the talk is about spreading out the wealth. So the goal is for everyone to make the same amount??? Help me understand this someone..

[Renee in NC]

Do a search - this topic has been debated to death.

 

(edited due to snarky comment)

Edited October 27, 2008 by Renee in FL

[shell in SC]

I don't understand this redistribution of wealth idea. My hubby spent 4 years in college, 4 years in medical school, 5 years in residency and then established his practice. We did not go out to eat for many years. The only time I got new clothes was when it was my birthday or Christmas and people bought them for me or I got money as a gift. I remember all of the girls going out to eat after Bible study and I went home because I could not afford to. We pay off our credit cards each month and only use them to acrue miles. We paid extra on our house until it was paid off, etc. We have tried to live responsibly and only within our means. Now our salary is nicer but we put money away for retirement, college saving and give a big chunk of our money to charity each year.. So, why should I get taxed more??? Why do we need to redistribute the money my dh works long, long hours and spent many many hours studying for (still does with CME and courses) to give to someone else??? Same thing with the bailout plans. We rented very cheap apartments in not great neigborhoods, bought houses that were way under our means, are still driving a nearly 20 year old HOnda Accord.. So why are our tax dollars bailing out people who bought more home than they could afford??? What happened to personal responsiblity.. Now the government has taken over the banks and the talk is about spreading out the wealth. So the goal is for everyone to make the same amount??? Help me understand this someone..

 

If you find an answer that makes sense, please let me know cause I'm still looking! I agree with 100% on this. DH and I did the responsible thing and got a normal mortgage (not one of those interest only things or adjustables) but our tax money has to go help people that made stupid decisions without looking to the future. . .What??? America is not that stupid. Americans are playing the system, and those of us that are honest people have to foot the bill. And then to have those that make more money pay more so that the lower income people can have more. . .What is that all about.

 

Heck, if we'd have known that, our dh's should have just gone to flip burgers down the street instead of waste all the time and money getting advanced degrees. . .if we'd have only known. . .hindsight you know. Sometime I think we're the stupid ones for making sensible decisions!

 

Sorry, that turned into a vent. . .it just frustrates me to no end that people think they're entitled to something just because someone else has it.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

What it means is that Obama wants to raise the level of taxation on those who make over 250,000 per year to the same levels they were under Bill Clinton. According to a family member who is an accountant, if you make $250,000 per year, your taxes will probably increase by under $20. If you want less money to go for taxes and more money to go to charity, make sure you get a receipt.

 

This "redistribution of wealth" thing is is smoke and mirrors. It's an attempt to make people afraid to vote for the scary liberal black man. ;)

[LNC]

I heard him say "spread the wealth around" with my own ears. I've heard there is a newly released audio with similar statements from his own mouth. This is not smoke and mirrors. This has nothing to do with race. I myself have an african american son. Please don't make inflammatory statements.

[shell in SC]

 

This "redistribution of wealth" thing is is smoke and mirrors. It's an attempt to make people afraid to vote for the scary liberal black man. ;)

 

 

That's not true BO himself has defended his "redistribution of wealth" philosophy. The words "spread the wealth" have come out of his mouth. The other side had NOTHING to do with that.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't understand this redistribution of wealth idea. My hubby spent 4 years in college, 4 years in medical school, 5 years in residency and then established his practice. We did not go out to eat for many years. The only time I got new clothes was when it was my birthday or Christmas and people bought them for me or I got money as a gift. I remember all of the girls going out to eat after Bible study and I went home because I could not afford to. We pay off our credit cards each month and only use them to acrue miles. We paid extra on our house until it was paid off, etc. We have tried to live responsibly and only within our means. Now our salary is nicer but we put money away for retirement, college saving and give a big chunk of our money to charity each year.. So, why should I get taxed more??? Why do we need to redistribute the money my dh works long, long hours and spent many many hours studying for (still does with CME and courses) to give to someone else??? Same thing with the bailout plans. We rented very cheap apartments in not great neigborhoods, bought houses that were way under our means, are still driving a nearly 20 year old HOnda Accord.. So why are our tax dollars bailing out people who bought more home than they could afford??? What happened to personal responsiblity.. Now the government has taken over the banks and the talk is about spreading out the wealth. So the goal is for everyone to make the same amount??? Help me understand this someone..

 

If you're talking about the Obama tax plan, then you're talking about repealing the tax cuts that were inacted under Pres. GW Bush. Sen. McCain was also for doing this, before he was against it. (And I support fully his right to change his mind based on what he might believe to be better information. That, I think, is part of being a responsible, grown up person, that ability to take new information and come to new and more considered conclusions.)

 

As to your question, I don't know. I do hope you don't resent me (or people like me) for this. We make very little money at present what with dh's military retirement check and me in school full-time and all, and won't be making a ton more next year. But we do try to live responsibly, bought only an $80K house because that's all the mortgage we could afford, pay our bills and our taxes, drive and responsibly maintain our cars til they just can't go any longer, etc.

 

My goal certainly isn't for you to make less, nor is it to take more of your money and apply it directly into my own bank account. I know that people have very strong differences of opinion as to what the tax structure should look like, and some think the structure that was in place during the Clinton years looks good, some think that the one that is in place currently looks good, some prefer that corporate taxes be slashed for one reason and another, some prefer that they be lowered.

 

I'm sorry you feel cheated in the middle of all this, and that the portion of your income that you earn that is over $250K (if I'm getting this correctly -- I read $360K, but everyone keeps saying $250K) would be taxed an additional 2%. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I want you to know that I am not asking for more money to raise my kids or pad my pockets.

 

Thank you to your husband for all the hard work that he put in. I appreciate good doctors and would never begrudge you (or any other high earner of an honest living) what you have.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I heard him say "spread the wealth around" with my own ears. I've heard there is a newly released audio with similar statements from his own mouth. This is not smoke and mirrors. This has nothing to do with race. I myself have an african american son. Please don't make inflammatory statements.

 

I want everyone to have opportunity for a comfortable life, and like Sen. Obama I call for personal responsibility and hard work. So spreading wealth around into student loans, tax incentives for small businesses, etc, is a good idea in my book.

 

ETA: By comfortable, I mean sorta like mine -- roof over my head, food in my belly, clean water and access to health care. Not a high salary or high off the hog.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I want everyone to have opportunity for a comfortable life, and like Sen. Obama I call for personal responsibility and hard work. So spreading wealth around into student loans, tax incentives for small businesses, etc, is a good idea in my book.

:iagree: And we have been "spreading the wealth around" for many, many years under our current tax system.

[lynn]

:iagree: And we have been "spreading the wealth around" for many, many years under our current tax system.

 

 

:iagree: My sister works just to make ends meet she gets food stamps, does not have to pay taxes, gets $3000 back each years which is gone within months, she also get's health care coverage. So we already are spreading the wealth to those in need. What else needs or can be done? Now it would be nice if more churches and families stepped up to meet the needs of families, neighbors and friends so it would not have to be always a "g'ment entitlement"

[laylamcb]

What it means is that Obama wants to raise the level of taxation on those who make over 250,000 per year to the same levels they were under Bill Clinton. According to a family member who is an accountant, if you make $250,000 per year, your taxes will probably increase by under $20. If you want less money to go for taxes and more money to go to charity, make sure you get a receipt.

 

This "redistribution of wealth" thing is is smoke and mirrors. It's an attempt to make people afraid to vote for the scary liberal black man. ;)

 

Quite true, based on estimates. But if you look at what you WOULD have gotten from McCain.... Wow. Best not to look at it that way. ;)

 

Here's a chart from Money Magazine, with data from the Tax Policy Center.

[Marie in Oh]

I just put my numbers into an Obama Tax Cut Calculator. It calculates your tax cut under the two major candidates' plans. We will pay 1200 more in taxes under Obama than McCain. Interesting.

 

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

 

I know nothing about the fairness or unbiased nature of the source.

[Jenny in Atl]

I have one question... did your husband attend state schools? Everyone needs to stop and think what they would be willing to give up (schools, libraries, roads, loans, supports/loans for small/large business, etc. I personally believe in a smaller government, but many of these posts really are beginning to sound like echos of 1968.

[choirfarm]

I found an old post I made in February 2008 on another board.. very interesting. I wish we had taken our money in our 529's/IRA's and put them somewhere safer... Anyway here is my old post

Does anyone else feel our country is in big trouble financially?

My boys have been studying some government/money issues and I just do not understand at all how our government and the stock market works... It just doesn't make sense to me and it seems we are headed for a big crash. Our country in in the red over 9 trillion dollars...How is that even possible??? The country doesn't have enough set aside to fund Social Security and Medicare and no one has a real plan to fix it. AND I don't think the American people are going to be willing to help either. Somehow we have all gotten the feeling we are entitled to things... I am entitled to a house, even if I have not saved any money to put down.... Now all of the banks are having the foreclosures...on many people who should NEVER have been given loans in the first place. And then so many people have massive credit card debt... Now President Bush and the mortgage companies are racing to try and bail people out, and I think...what about those of us who played by the rules: saved for a down payment, paid extra until it was paid off... Our country keeps borrowing and borrowing, but I guess I do not understand how our loans are never called.... At what point does whoever we are borrowing from (another point I don't understand) say you have to pay it back??? We as Americans are entitled to our cable tv, Cell Phones, internet (OK...guilty on that one, here I see so many children that are upset if they don't have a cell phone...thankfully mine are not one of them. They don't have x-box, Playstation, etc. or satellite tv, either!! I guess I've just been thinking alot after watching the national news about the country heading for a recession and I think... could our country handle a depresssion like the 1930's??? I do not know. Times were REALLY hard back then, but people were not used to having nearly as many entitlements as we are. They really scrimped, saved and used everything... I remember my great-grandmother carefully unwrapping her presents and folding the wrapping paper so that she could use it to wrap anothe present. Who does that anymore??? Just some rambling thoughts for a Saturday afternoon.

 

 

Christine

 

And honestly, I don't think McCain OR Obama would handle this correctly. I don't think anyone associated with Washington can anymore. It almost seems like we need to start over. Does anyone remember the movie Dave where he was the President went in with his friend and they balanced the budget. I'm starting to get really worried about all of this debt our country has.. At some point, we won't borrow anymore. We have been studying about all of these civilizations that came and went. I'm thinking ours is on they way out... At least it seems that way. I just cannot figure out the prudent thing to do... How do you protect what you have??? If our country fails, then even the banks won't be safe..

[choirfarm]

I have one question... did your husband attend state schools? Everyone needs to stop and think what they would be willing to give up (schools, libraries, roads, loans, supports/loans for small/large business, etc. I personally believe in a smaller government, but many of these posts really are beginning to sound like echos of 1968.

Nope, attended a private Christian school that we give money to as well. See, that is what I guess I do not get. People should be able to give money to the things they support and not have money taken away and then spent on things they don't agree with.. I want to support Baylor not University of Texas!!!!

[choirfarm]

Once again I want to reiterate, this is not an Obama/McCain question as nothing ever really changes. I'm not sure it really could. Every politician says all sorts of things, but it is always the same. This is more of a how do we fix this?? Can we??? It seems overwhelming...

[teamturner]

How do you know at what point Obama (or any other politician) will think taxes are high enough to fund all his programs? I'd rather vote for a candidate who says he's for lower taxes than the one who openly says he's going to increase taxes. Those are better odds. :D

 

Either way it's a crap shoot as to what either one will actually do once elected and faces the extreme challenges of this particular economy.

[Jenny in Atl]

Nope, attended a private Christian school that we give money to as well. See, that is what I guess I do not get. People should be able to give money to the things they support and not have money taken away and then spent on things they don't agree with.. I want to support Baylor not University of Texas!!!!

 

 

 

Despite its status as a private school Baylor, since 1971, has annually received state appropriations from the Texas legislature to subsidize the medical education of Texas residents.

 

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/BB/kbb7.html

[choirfarm]

I just put my numbers into an Obama Tax Cut Calculator. It calculates your tax cut under the two major candidates' plans. We will pay 1200 more in taxes under Obama than McCain. Interesting.

 

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

 

I know nothing about the fairness or unbiased nature of the source.

 

 

Huge gap in the calculator. It goes from 200,000 to 500,000. That is a huge hole. It is just scary now to see how much of his paycheck is taken to taxes and it will only get worse I'm afraid.

[choirfarm]

Despite its status as a private school Baylor, since 1971, has annually received state appropriations from the Texas legislature to subsidize the medical education of Texas residents.

 

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/BB/kbb7.html

This refers to Baylor college of medicine. I was talking about Baylor University.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Nope, attended a private Christian school that we give money to as well. See, that is what I guess I do not get. People should be able to give money to the things they support and not have money taken away and then spent on things they don't agree with.. I want to support Baylor not University of Texas!!!!

 

Well, that works in theory, or maybe in a utopian world where everyone donates to charity and everyone agrees on what their money should be spent on. In reality, there are tons of folks who would withhold their money if it went to support, say, unwed mothers, anything given to anyone whose skin was not white, anyone who did not profess a particular religion or any number of other things. Government can provide for the less fortunate in a way that is nondiscriminatory. And please don't trot out examples of people who take advantage of the system. Anecdotal evidence of abuse will not cause me decide that government programs to help those who need it should be abolished.

[PariSarah]

My next door neighbor and his wife work two full time and three part-time jobs between them. Their race made it difficult for them to get an education in their youth (do read up on plessy vs. ferguson and its aftermath when you get the chance), and they are still poorly compensated compared to white people doing the same jobs. They've done beautifully with the resources they were given, but they were given crap to work with.

 

One relative of mine has made every bad decision in the book, but because he has wealthy parents, he will never feel the effects of his bad decisions.

 

I was given a scholarship to a ritzy private school that I never would have gotten had I been of another race. I worked hard and did well, but I haven't forgotten that the opportunity to work hard and do well would not have been there had I not been white.

 

Another relative of mine was victimized for years in a horrific marriage. Her family helped her out as much as possible, but the first few years after the divorce, she made use of numerous governmental assistance programs. She couldn't have guessed how awful her husband would turn out to be, and she tried for years to make it work. Her post-divorce poverty had nothing to do with her irresponsibility--only his.

 

And then there's the whole unforeseeable illness and disaster argument.

 

It's just not the case that financial soundness is solely determined by merit. Some people are poor despite good choices and hard work. It doesn't bother me that my government wants to keep such people from starving to death, or make sure they can get their kids vaccinated, or get a decent education. I have a lot of issues, sometimes, with the way welfare programs are constructed, and with how inefficient and ineffectual they are. But I'd rather live in a place where society, in general, wants the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the imprisoned visited, and the thirsty given a drink. That's a morally superior society to one that says, "Well, you must not have worked hard enough--sucks to be you," when faced with hunger and thirst and nakedness.

 

I'm still in the midst of those years you remember, and some days it's more of a struggle than others. So I don't blame you for remembering your struggle and wishing that people would be more responsible than they are. It's true that some people would be in better financial condition if they would just make better decisions.

 

But as long as there are accidents, unforeseeable disasters, illnesses, and personal evil, I'm going to support responsible government support systems. And having recently run across incidences of genuine repentance, I'll go out on a limb, here, and say that I like the idea of giving even irresponsible people second, third, twelfth chances, too. And I'd rather be a wealthy person that has to fund such systems than a poor person that needs them.

 

I suspect, though, that you and I would agree on the irresponsibility and inefficacy of some programs currently on the books.

[lovemyboys]

This "redistribution of wealth" thing is is smoke and mirrors. It's an attempt to make people afraid to vote for the scary liberal black man. ;)

 

That's unfair.

 

And I do think that it's worth knowing if one of the two major party candidates is very liberal. A number of those independent voters might be much less inclined to vote for someone who is very liberal. Some of these recent comments, plus some video footage/audio tape to back it up are worth considering. Links to statements and soundbites from years past allow us to hear what Sen. Obama stands for, what he has believed for awhile.

 

Maybe the smoke and mirrors is the very moderate reasonable calm image that we see now, and a truer picture is revealed by off-the-cuff remarks by the candidate and comments made by his running mate about his own concerns? :)

[hsmamainva]

Well, that works in theory, or maybe in a utopian world where everyone donates to charity and everyone agrees on what their money should be spent on. In reality, there are tons of folks who would withhold their money if it went to support, say, unwed mothers, anything given to anyone whose skin was not white, anyone who did not profess a particular religion or any number of other things. Government can provide for the less fortunate in a way that is nondiscriminatory. And please don't trot out examples of people who take advantage of the system. Anecdotal evidence of abuse will not cause me decide that government programs to help those who need it should be abolished.

 

:hurray:

 

Well said, Meanest Mom!!! :iagree:

[shell in SC]

Hey Marie, since you'll be paying more that makes you wealthy. . .ME TOO!!!!!

 

I've been dreaming of being wealthy all my life. . .I didn't know it would feel this great:tongue_smilie:

[GreenKitty]

I don't understand this redistribution of wealth idea. My hubby spent 4 years in college, 4 years in medical school, 5 years in residency and then established his practice. We did not go out to eat for many years. The only time I got new clothes was when it was my birthday or Christmas and people bought them for me or I got money as a gift. I remember all of the girls going out to eat after Bible study and I went home because I could not afford to. We pay off our credit cards each month and only use them to acrue miles. We paid extra on our house until it was paid off, etc. We have tried to live responsibly and only within our means. Now our salary is nicer but we put money away for retirement, college saving and give a big chunk of our money to charity each year.. So, why should I get taxed more??? Why do we need to redistribute the money my dh works long, long hours and spent many many hours studying for (still does with CME and courses) to give to someone else??? Same thing with the bailout plans. We rented very cheap apartments in not great neigborhoods, bought houses that were way under our means, are still driving a nearly 20 year old HOnda Accord.. So why are our tax dollars bailing out people who bought more home than they could afford??? What happened to personal responsiblity.. Now the government has taken over the banks and the talk is about spreading out the wealth. So the goal is for everyone to make the same amount??? Help me understand this someone..

 

 

Yes! Where is the common sense with that???

 

How it should be: Work for what you want. If you are lazy, you deserve nothing!

 

Spreading the wealth around takes from the hard working and gives to the lazy.

 

You reap what you sow!

[Marie in Oh]

Hey Marie, since you'll be paying more that makes you wealthy. . .ME TOO!!!!!

 

I've been dreaming of being wealthy all my life. . .I didn't know it would feel this great:tongue_smilie:

 

I've always wondered about how it feels to be wealthy. Driving old cars, shopping at thrift stores, only buying what's on sale at the grocery. I tell you. . . we really live it up here in Ohio with our 7 kids, modest mortgage, etc. etc. Thanks for the reminder.

[Jenny in Atl]

Yes! Where is the common sense with that???

 

How it should be: Work for what you want. If you are lazy, you deserve nothing!

 

Spreading the wealth around takes from the hard working and gives to the lazy.

 

You reap what you sow!

 

So what are you willing to give up?

[shell in SC]

 

I've always wondered about how it feels to be wealthy. Driving old cars, shopping at thrift stores, only buying what's on sale at the grocery. I tell you. . . we really live it up here in Ohio with our 7 kids, modest mortgage, etc. etc. Thanks for the reminder.

 

 

Anytime. . .that's what I'm here for. I'm going to have to start reminding myself more often. Especially when I'm driving my luxury car (Old mitsubishi) that I'm scared will not last much longer and isn't paid for yet. As I'm driving to work everyday (which is totally optional for me. . .because I'm wealthy you know) wondering where we're going to get the money to get another car, as I'm in my upgraded (not. . .starter) home worrying about how I'm going to pay the payment and put food on the table I'll be reminding myself.

 

You know what if this is wealthy. . .I'm quitting and getting welfare!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

I've always wondered about how it feels to be wealthy. Driving old cars, shopping at thrift stores, only buying what's on sale at the grocery. I tell you. . . we really live it up here in Ohio with our 7 kids, modest mortgage, etc. etc. Thanks for the reminder.

 

I'm sorry, you guys. This sort of thing makes me feel horrible. Any way you look at it, even NOW in the aftermath of the top tier tax cuts from eight years of Bush/Cheney, I'm given great advantages at your expense.

 

We will drive our cars into oblivion. We did buy a modest townhouse with only two bedrooms, and my girls share a room. The ds gets a Pell grant this year, which you all subsidize, and we get child tax credits, which again, you subsidize. My state school tuition is subsidized by people making the kind of money you are making. Heck, even dh's military pay and retirement are being subsidized by you, so I guess I could be looked on as living entirely off the system just now.

 

I just agonize about this. I'm not begrudging you your money, I promise. And the year we tried to forgo the EIC, we had our tax refund redone and money deposited in our account for the "corrected" amount, as we do direct deposit for refund.

 

I don't even know what to say, except that I'm sorry. I'm cringing. I never asked anyone to be forced to help feed or clothe my kids, and we limited our family deliberately. :(

[PariSarah]

Nope, attended a private Christian school that we give money to as well. See, that is what I guess I do not get. People should be able to give money to the things they support and not have money taken away and then spent on things they don't agree with.. I want to support Baylor not University of Texas!!!!

 

You might not know this if you are younger than my parents, but your school was closed to blacks before 1964. Depending on how old you are, your opportunity financial success may be directly related to your race; even now, it's probably at least partially connected to your race.

 

People have money taken away from them because they don't support things that they should. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but since you attended a private Christian school and still give money there, I'm guessing that you have some sympathy with Christianity. You should be feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving water to the thirsty, and visiting the sick and imprisoned. And I hope you do. But if you don't, or if what you are able to give is not enough to feed all the hungry people there are, why complain that the government is going to try?

 

Again, I suspect that you and I would share a negative judgment on certain government programs. But the principle of using the resources of those who have them in order to feed starving people is one that your own faith demands. The principle stands, whether or not its execution is sometimes (usually?) flawed.

[joannqn]

I just put my numbers into an Obama Tax Cut Calculator. It calculates your tax cut under the two major candidates' plans. We will pay 1200 more in taxes under Obama than McCain. Interesting.

 

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

 

I know nothing about the fairness or unbiased nature of the source.

 

 

Interesting link.

 

According to the website our taxes in 2009 will change by -$468.76 under Barack Obama and -$952.34 under John McCain.

[PariSarah]

We will drive our cars into oblivion. We did buy a modest townhouse with only two bedrooms, and my girls share a room. The ds gets a Pell grant this year, which you all subsidize, and we get child tax credits, which again, you subsidize. My state school tuition is subsidized by people making the kind of money you are making. Heck, even dh's military pay and retirement are being subsidized by you, so I guess I could be looked on as living entirely off the system just now.

 

. . . when you're taking care of my mom in her retirement home.

 

And I get totally steamed whenever I think about all that money the government wastes on that darn national security thing.

 

(That is, all that money I spent on you back in those two or three years when we actually paid federal and state taxes.)

 

You oughtta be ashamed of yourself, girl. You should have been working harder at doing important, necessary tasks that are reasonably compensated (like professional sports, or being a vice-presidential stylist), instead of wasting all your time with that dumb ole nursing and defending stuff.

 

;)

 

 

:lol:

[Harriet Vane]

My next door neighbor and his wife work two full time and three part-time jobs between them. Their race made it difficult for them to get an education in their youth (do read up on plessy vs. ferguson and its aftermath when you get the chance), and they are still poorly compensated compared to white people doing the same jobs. They've done beautifully with the resources they were given, but they were given crap to work with.

 

One relative of mine has made every bad decision in the book, but because he has wealthy parents, he will never feel the effects of his bad decisions.

 

I was given a scholarship to a ritzy private school that I never would have gotten had I been of another race. I worked hard and did well, but I haven't forgotten that the opportunity to work hard and do well would not have been there had I not been white.

 

Another relative of mine was victimized for years in a horrific marriage. Her family helped her out as much as possible, but the first few years after the divorce, she made use of numerous governmental assistance programs. She couldn't have guessed how awful her husband would turn out to be, and she tried for years to make it work. Her post-divorce poverty had nothing to do with her irresponsibility--only his.

 

And then there's the whole unforeseeable illness and disaster argument.

 

It's just not the case that financial soundness is solely determined by merit. Some people are poor despite good choices and hard work. It doesn't bother me that my government wants to keep such people from starving to death, or make sure they can get their kids vaccinated, or get a decent education. I have a lot of issues, sometimes, with the way welfare programs are constructed, and with how inefficient and ineffectual they are. But I'd rather live in a place where society, in general, wants the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the imprisoned visited, and the thirsty given a drink. That's a morally superior society to one that says, "Well, you must not have worked hard enough--sucks to be you," when faced with hunger and thirst and nakedness.

 

I'm still in the midst of those years you remember, and some days it's more of a struggle than others. So I don't blame you for remembering your struggle and wishing that people would be more responsible than they are. It's true that some people would be in better financial condition if they would just make better decisions.

 

But as long as there are accidents, unforeseeable disasters, illnesses, and personal evil, I'm going to support responsible government support systems. And having recently run across incidences of genuine repentance, I'll go out on a limb, here, and say that I like the idea of giving even irresponsible people second, third, twelfth chances, too. And I'd rather be a wealthy person that has to fund such systems than a poor person that needs them.

 

I suspect, though, that you and I would agree on the irresponsibility and inefficacy of some programs currently on the books.

 

Well said.

 

It is frustrating to me when people rant on and on about all those people taking blatant advantage of the government programs. This does not accurately reflect the majority of the poor at all.

 

While I have known some that do not deserve government help, the vast majority of my experience with the poor (both being poor for many years personally and living among the poor) has taught me that they are by and large hardworking, and have often had very difficult circumstances hobbling them.

[elegantlion]

Yes! Where is the common sense with that???

 

How it should be: Work for what you want. If you are lazy, you deserve nothing!

 

Spreading the wealth around takes from the hard working and gives to the lazy.

 

You reap what you sow!

 

Even Jesus said “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’sâ€. The bible also says that the poor will always be among us.

 

I do not believe the reaping and sowing can thrown over the economic situation. We are a self-employed family and my dh works his ever living butt off every single year. Our income can very greatly due to circumstances outside of our control. There have been many years when we did not "reap" what we had "sowed".

[Perry]

 

It's just not the case that financial soundness is solely determined by merit. Some people are poor despite good choices and hard work. It doesn't bother me that my government wants to keep such people from starving to death, or make sure they can get their kids vaccinated, or get a decent education. I have a lot of issues, sometimes, with the way welfare programs are constructed, and with how inefficient and ineffectual they are. But I'd rather live in a place where society, in general, wants the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the imprisoned visited, and the thirsty given a drink. That's a morally superior society to one that says, "Well, you must not have worked hard enough--sucks to be you," when faced with hunger and thirst and nakedness.

....

But as long as there are accidents, unforeseeable disasters, illnesses, and personal evil, I'm going to support responsible government support systems. And having recently run across incidences of genuine repentance, I'll go out on a limb, here, and say that I like the idea of giving even irresponsible people second, third, twelfth chances, too. And I'd rather be a wealthy person that has to fund such systems than a poor person that needs them.

...

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Well said.

[shell in SC]

BUt there have probably been other years where you've reaped more than you've sown.