lllll Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) nm Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Yes, I understood all that from your first post and I vaguely remembered the same from older posts. I guess I was just thinking that because your kids are so young that maybe they wouldn't understand the whole gift thing. And that there might be a way to protect your kids from more incidents like the RC boat thing with the IL's at the same time you're implementing the above. But maybe I'm wrong here and your kids fully understand what's going on and are fine with it .... No idea. how young is that? an infant? 'cause I got to tell you - *I* understood something wasn't right when I was five and wanting to go home and cry because the gift I was so excited about was taken away from me right after I opened it and wasn't coming home. what I also remember is my mother didn't protect me from the npd, but often subjected me to her. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I agree with most of what has been offered. It would be easier and perhaps psychologically healthier to cut off the relationship. We, in large part due to our faith, have intentionally chosen NOT to cut off ILs but rather to show honor by keeping the relationship marginally intact. This is between DH & I and God. We have chosen the hard way and that means a constant tension. We are attempting to master our attitudes, discipline our mouths and actions to legitimately reflect respect and forgiveness while still protecting ourselves and our children and maintianing significant boundaries. It's difficult and always will be. I'm really appreciative to have a place like this in which to be understood and for the perspective and input given. Yep. Because all morals will be used against you. If you didn't have any, you wouldn't be worth picking on. NPD sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I vote for your DH dropping by unannounced on them and bringing the gifts back. My NPDs would just state that they are leaving town and need to see the grandkids and drop in without asking me if it was convenient or not. So, I have learned to preempt them by sending their beloved son to their home unannounced and carry the gifts back! BTW/ gifts are my NPD's way of showing everyone that they are very loving and caring and warm and involved - they use those gifts as talking points for months with their friends and relatives while their grandkids never seem to like them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarlaB Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 DH texted MIL that we won't be able to get together but he could possibly stop by on Wed to pick up gifts or they could just keep them for another time. MIL just texted back that they will keep them for another time when we can get together. Of course she did. 😜 It's not about the kids- it's about her. She can't helped but show her true colors- make no mistake. It's sad, pathetic and horrible. But completely predictable. DH and I are pretty gut-level confident that our kiddos are pretty detached from ILs. Not completed unaffected, but ILs have been kept at a distance the last 4 years. Kiddos didn't seem to hugely notice or care that they didn't get gifts this Christmas- DHs entire family is dysfunctional that way. I won't hide it, defend it, apologize for it or compensate. My kids are protected and safe and always with us when with ILs. We process as much as needed before and after with them. Maybe that's wrong and teaches too much tolerance of nasty people but it's also a real part of life. Not every person is kind and respectful - even when they should be! We talk about how to handle that and why that happens. We don't lie and make excuses, nor apologize- just say it stinks. Way too many people foster austere idealized lives filled only with shiny happy people that are 100% acceptable. That isn't our goal. People are messy and rough. Some are truly abusive like ILs. And they require a lot of energy and wisdom to handle- so much caution to be simply be around. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyhwkmama Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I can't imagine any loving God that would want you to repeatedly subject your children to emotional manipulation and abuse. I just can't. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 DH texted MIL that we won't be able to get together but he could possibly stop by on Wed to pick up gifts or they could just keep them for another time. MIL just texted back that they will keep them for another time when we can get together. Of course she did. 😜 It's not about the kids- it's about her. She can't helped but show her true colors- make no mistake. It's sad, pathetic and horrible. But completely predictable. DH and I are pretty gut-level confident that our kiddos are pretty detached from ILs. Not completed unaffected, but ILs have been kept at a distance the last 4 years. Kiddos didn't seem to hugely notice or care that they didn't get gifts this Christmas- DHs entire family is dysfunctional that way. I won't hide it, defend it, apologize for it or compensate. My kids are protected and safe and always with us when with ILs. We process as much as needed before and after with them. Maybe that's wrong and teaches too much tolerance of nasty people but it's also a real part of life. Not every person is kind and respectful - even when they should be! We talk about how to handle that and why that happens. We don't lie and make excuses, nor apologize- just say it stinks. Way too many people foster austere idealized lives filled only with shiny happy people that are 100% acceptable. That isn't our goal. People are messy and rough. Some are truly abusive like ILs. And they require a lot of energy and wisdom to handle- so much caution to be simply be around. I understand what you are saying. I think it is wise to teach kids that not everyone is perfect and some people do NOT have other people's best interests at heart, hard as that lesson is to learn. (I think it is also an important message to teach kids that people can and should enforce boundaries, even with relatives, when their own or another family member's mental/physical well being is at stake.) I really don't think anyone is advocating that you put a bubble around your kids or make them believe that everyone in the world is a happy person with 100% acceptable actions. That wasn't how I was reading the bulk of the other posts at all. I certainly wasn't saying that. Honestly, I think what most people are saying is that if you intend to keep them in your lives, it will be critical to set boundaries and enforce those boundaries over and over and over, regardless of what MIL says or does. This isn't to put a bubble around your kids but to keep all of you from dealing with the long term negative consequences of emotional abuse. Many people on WTM have posted about the emotional scars they carry from being exposed repeatedly to a family member with NPD. It can have lasting consequences and affect much of a person's life. And you are absolutely right, people are messy and rough and some are truly abusive. And do require a lot of energy and wisdom to handle. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I am not criticizing your decision to maintain contact at all. I know that you know what is right for your own family. I just want to point out a different perspective. It has been close to 20 years since I broke contact with my mentally ill mother. Before that time, I had been the good child and saved her from herself repeatedly, even allowing her to move in with our young family. In my case, my mom is a destroyer. She was actively trying to come between me and my Dh and between Dh and our children. I put my foot down and refuse to allow it. At the time, I went to our priest who was also my mother's. I asked him specifically about the commandment to honor mother and father. He insisted that I was the hero child for breaking the pattern of abuse, and that by raising strong, healthy children in an intact family, I was giving her the ultimate honor. He said that I was actually being loving by not allowing her to practice her manipulative skills on my family. It is like refusing to let a drunk person drive. Sure it makes them mad and they call you a bunch of names, but letting them have their way would bring much more pain to them in the long run. Again, I'm not judging you for maintaining a relationship, I'm just pointing out that some of us who have chosen differently, also believe that we are doing God's will and fulfilling His commandments. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarlaB Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 I am not criticizing your decision to maintain contact at all. I know that you know what is right for your own family. I just want to point out a different perspective. It has been close to 20 years since I broke contact with my mentally ill mother. Before that time, I had been the good child and saved her from herself repeatedly, even allowing her to move in with our young family. In my case, my mom is a destroyer. She was actively trying to come between me and my Dh and between Dh and our children. I put my foot down and refuse to allow it. At the time, I went to our priest who was also my mother's. I asked him specifically about the commandment to honor mother and father. He insisted that I was the hero child for breaking the pattern of abuse, and that by raising strong, healthy children in an intact family, I was giving her the ultimate honor. He said that I was actually being loving by not allowing her to practice her manipulative skills on my family. It is like refusing to let a drunk person drive. Sure it makes them mad and they call you a bunch of names, but letting them have their way would bring much more pain to them in the long run. Again, I'm not judging you for maintaining a relationship, I'm just pointing out that some of us who have chosen differently, also believe that we are doing God's will and fulfilling His commandments. Thank you so much for sharing this. I appreciate your story so much. I can imagine how hard that was for you and I respect your strength. And I thank you for not judging me. 😜 We are on a journey. We are flawed humans trying our bes with what we see know and understand right nowt. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Yep. Because all morals will be used against you. If you didn't have any, you wouldn't be worth picking on. NPD sucks. well, for those in the npd person's orbit . . . . DH texted MIL that we won't be able to get together but he could possibly stop by on Wed to pick up gifts or they could just keep them for another time. MIL just texted back that they will keep them for another time when we can get together. Of course she did. 😜 It's not about the kids- it's about her. She can't helped but show her true colors- make no mistake. It's sad, pathetic and horrible. But completely predictable. DH and I are pretty gut-level confident that our kiddos are pretty detached from ILs. Not completed unaffected, but ILs have been kept at a distance the last 4 years. Kiddos didn't seem to hugely notice or care that they didn't get gifts this Christmas- DHs entire family is dysfunctional that way. I won't hide it, defend it, apologize for it or compensate. My kids are protected and safe and always with us when with ILs. We process as much as needed before and after with them. Maybe that's wrong and teaches too much tolerance of nasty people but it's also a real part of life. Not every person is kind and respectful - even when they should be! We talk about how to handle that and why that happens. We don't lie and make excuses, nor apologize- just say it stinks. Way too many people foster austere idealized lives filled only with shiny happy people that are 100% acceptable. That isn't our goal. People are messy and rough. Some are truly abusive like ILs. And they require a lot of energy and wisdom to handle- so much caution to be simply be around. sounds like you're doing what works for you. and your attitude towards your ILs will rub off on your kids. if you don't take them seriously, your kids won't. if you can hold that at enough distance it's not damaging - your kids will be better able to recognize the destructiveness of these patterns in other people. how many times have we had threads on the subject on the board and there are people who are utterly clueless about the subject. I think this is why my mil never ever developed the power my npd person did. fil didn't roll over for her - and their children knew it. my npd's husband did, so all of her posterity thought they had to do whatever the npd person wanted or they weren't worth anything. I can't imagine any loving God that would want you to repeatedly subject your children to emotional manipulation and abuse. I just can't. my npd person used religion as a weapon. "if you don't do what I say, god will smite you." (yeah, 'cause God does what you say. . . not.) I understand why my parents rejected religion. i, became very religious - I was also NOT blind to the npd person and using religion as a weapon. I spent so much time on my knees trying to understand this relationship, and what I was supposed to do. it isn't' exaggeration to say I felt like her expectations were I would symbolically give her a knife so she could sacrifice me on the alter of her ego, or kiss her muck covered feet so she could kick me in the face. (she was destructive - and didn't forgive me that I wouldn't' buy her "all men have affairs" that she tried on me a WEEK after I got married. she was really angry over who I married. this is the same woman who told my sister that her pot smoking, drinking until drunk, lower level blue-collar, physically abusive boyfriend she married because she didn't want to have a third abortion *was too good for her and she should be grateful he wanted to marry her!!!!!* :svengo:) I spent lots of time praying and reading the scriptures trying to find an answer. a verse literally leaped off the page at me. essentially -God does not require us to subject ourselves to our enemies - and she was my enemy. she would destroy my spirit if she could. by refusing to allow her to abuse me, or my children, I was "honoring her" according to the meaning behind the commandment to honor our parents. eta: most contact was a once a week 15 minute phone call. as long as she was polite. many were <5 minutes. I prayerfully felt good about that choice. some people can have greater contact, some need to completely severe all contact. each situation is different. Edited January 31, 2017 by gardenmom5 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I could not honor my parent and allow her near my children at the same time. My duty to protect my children caused an active conflict between the two roles. It was a prayerful decision. I would guess the path and timing of difficult choices are different for everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarlaB Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 I understand what you are saying. I think it is wise to teach kids that not everyone is perfect and some people do NOT have other people's best interests at heart, hard as that lesson is to learn. (I think it is also an important message to teach kids that people can and should enforce boundaries, even with relatives, when their own or another family member's mental/physical well being is at stake.) I really don't think anyone is advocating that you put a bubble around your kids or make them believe that everyone in the world is a happy person with 100% acceptable actions. That wasn't how I was reading the bulk of the other posts at all. I certainly wasn't saying that. Honestly, I think what most people are saying is that if you intend to keep them in your lives, it will be critical to set boundaries and enforce those boundaries over and over and over, regardless of what MIL says or does. This isn't to put a bubble around your kids but to keep all of you from dealing with the long term negative consequences of emotional abuse. Many people on WTM have posted about the emotional scars they carry from being exposed repeatedly to a family member with NPD. It can have lasting consequences and affect much of a person's life. And you are absolutely right, people are messy and rough and some are truly abusive. And do require a lot of energy and wisdom to handle. Thank you for your insightful thoughts and perspective. I really appreciate your heartfelt compassionate attitude and that you've taken such care with your words. Our kids are the top priority. . We can't undo the damage that have and NPD mother has done to DH and his 4 siblings. But we can, and for the most part have, vigilantly protect our children to prevent that cycle from continuing and breaking the pattern of abuse. It's hard work. I do not feel that MIL is practicing her manipulative ways on our family- she tries to, but we have distinct boundaries and are resolute. I probably haven't communicated everything with the precision And dimension needed for this group of strong outspoken people. 😜 We have boundaries and we keep them. It's the only way this will work and we have worked very hard with a therapist to get to this point. I'm really proud of how well we are doing, but still have moments of doubt and grey area in the boundaries... hanks to those who have helped! I DO appreciate the input and perspective. It's invaluable! I will take this as a welcomed reminder. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I'm impressed that you guys held your boundary so strongly! I was shaking in my boots last time I had to stand firm against my npd... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavender's green Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 OP, I admire that you're working on maintaining firm boundaries rather than doing a full cut-off. In my case it wouldn't have worked out (I cut a reckless, violent, manipulative person out of my life because I didn't want that person around my kids, and some other people thought this was unreasonable and unforgiving, and cut me out of their lives - so they are all out of my life unless I put my kids in harm's way, I guess). But I just want to say, I trust you to know what's best for your family and your own spiritual journey. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 OP, I admire that you're working on maintaining firm boundaries rather than doing a full cut-off. In my case it wouldn't have worked out (I cut a reckless, violent, manipulative person out of my life because I didn't want that person around my kids, and some other people thought this was unreasonable and unforgiving, and cut me out of their lives - so they are all out of my life unless I put my kids in harm's way, I guess). But I just want to say, I trust you to know what's best for your family and your own spiritual journey. That was a really painful part of it, how many people cut me off in response. I just kept repeating to myself that they know the real me, and the truth will come out someday. A few people who stayed involved with my mom have come back and said how much they now regret it and that they should have trusted me. It does get better. I'm sorry for anyone going through this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 That was a really painful part of it, how many people cut me off in response. I just kept repeating to myself that they know the real me, and the truth will come out someday. A few people who stayed involved with my mom have come back and said how much they now regret it and that they should have trusted me. It does get better. I'm sorry for anyone going through this. My mom puts on such a show for extended family that they believe every terrible thing she says about me. (And have my entire life.) I knew that when I went no-contact w/ her, that the same would happen w/ extended family too. Dh and I moved so far away that it's not really an issue. Still, it's sad. Amazingly my cousin keeps in touch which is nice. She never says anything, but must wonder, what the heck?! (Because she lives relatively close to my mom and likely hears all the nonsense.) I never would have gone no-contact until my parents started treating one son like the golden boy and the other like the scapegoat. (They're both super sweet, loving boys, but the one they scapegoated has a heart of gold. Just amazing.) Sorry, folks, not on my watch. (Just wish I had gone no-contact sooner.) :( Alley 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Just curious.... is "I forgot them." "I forgot them." "I'll bring them another time." secret code for "I didn't actually get your kids any gifts"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarlaB Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 That was a really painful part of it, how many people cut me off in response. I just kept repeating to myself that they know the real me, and the truth will come out someday. A few people who stayed involved with my mom have come back and said how much they now regret it and that they should have trusted me. It does get better. I'm sorry for anyone going through this. I understand this. We haven't even cut off parents, just hugely limited interactions and have very firm boundaries, now with the entire family. Boundaries make people crazy too. Yet DH's siblings and some in my family, have done nothing but blame us, question us, or worse yet consider and/or believe the stories that MIL tells (which always change) and participate in the devaluation- and it really really hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 OP, I admire that you're working on maintaining firm boundaries rather than doing a full cut-off. In my case it wouldn't have worked out (I cut a reckless, violent, manipulative person out of my life because I didn't want that person around my kids, and some other people thought this was unreasonable and unforgiving, and cut me out of their lives - so they are all out of my life unless I put my kids in harm's way, I guess). But I just want to say, I trust you to know what's best for your family and your own spiritual journey. :grouphug: it's really easy for outsiders to second guess - but they're not living it. boundaries exist in all relationships, but most we don't think about and we don't get push back. npd people will establish boundaries with other people - they only get mad when someone establishes a boundary with them to limit their control of their target. you do what you have to do. Just curious.... is "I forgot them." "I forgot them." "I'll bring them another time." secret code for "I didn't actually get your kids any gifts"? maybe. and maybe it's code for "how subservient and willing to do whatever I demand with you and your kids are you?" it's all about the power. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I'd forget about the "family heirloom". I'd never mention presents to the kids again. I wouldn't attend a family gathering where some children could get presents, but my dc could be left out (so a large family get together on Thanksgiving or July 4 OK, but not on Christmas). If for some reason a family get together on a nongiftgiving holiday is turned in "let's exchange presents now" I'd opt my family out of attending the event. Doing so would mean kids would miss seeing cousins and aunts, but that's better than being manipulated and feeling rejected. If relationships with dh's siblings and their dc is really important, try to plan activities with them on a small scale: meet up with sibling A's family at the pool in May, meet up with sibling B's family at the zoo in March. Do not plan these things very far ahead. try to make them somewhat spontaneous, so MIL cannot be involved. However, based on your later posts, putting effort into those relationships is not worth the hassle. I'd meet in laws at a restaurant somewhere a few times a year. You've done that recently. No need to do it again for a while. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Just curious.... is "I forgot them." "I forgot them." "I'll bring them another time." secret code for "I didn't actually get your kids any gifts"? No, its part of the training. Gifts will eventually appear...they will be pickef to elicit the strong negative emotions of the grandchildren and demonstrate the power of the npd to designate favored and unfavored gc and display that designation to the other children and grandchildren. To counteract that, the child needs to be old enough to understand a nonvisible illness or that meds have side effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I understand this. We haven't even cut off parents, just hugely limited interactions and have very firm boundaries, now with the entire family. Boundaries make people crazy too. Yet DH's siblings and some in my family, have done nothing but blame us, question us, or worse yet consider and/or believe the stories that MIL tells (which always change) and participate in the devaluation- and it really really hurts. Yes. Yes it does. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: And that is where they have their greatest power. To avoid the hurt, many try to cater to the NPD. They get into the mindset of the victim, "If only I do this that or the other thing it will all be better. They will love us, they will treat us well. People with think better of us." Or they simply try to please to prevent additional nastiness even if they know it won't ever get better. But its a trap. It will never get better because the person has a mental illness that prevents them from EVER functioning like a decent human being. They can't. They genuinely cannot. It would be like asking a paraplegic to get up and walk. So the people around them either continue to try to survive the emotional abuse up close and personal, or they draw clear boundaries they stay strong enforcing for the sake of themselves and their spouse/children while stealing themselves against the pain the consequences of such an action brings, or they cut off ties altogether. In all three scenarios there is pain and there is damage. But in the last two there is a better chance of preventing the cycle of damage from continuing. I send hugs to all who have to deal with this. :grouphug: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) nm Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Yes. Yes it does. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: And that is where they have their greatest power. To avoid the hurt, many try to cater to the NPD. They get into the mindset of the victim, "If only I do this that or the other thing it will all be better. They will love us, they will treat us well. People with think better of us." Or they simply try to please to prevent additional nastiness even if they know it won't ever get better. But its a trap. It will never get better because the person has a mental illness that prevents them from EVER functioning like a decent human being. They can't. They genuinely cannot. It would be like asking a paraplegic to get up and walk. So the people around them either continue to try to survive the emotional abuse up close and personal, or they draw clear boundaries they stay strong enforcing for the sake of themselves and their spouse/children while stealing themselves against the pain the consequences of such an action brings, or they cut off ties altogether. In all three scenarios there is pain and there is damage. But in the last two there is a better chance of preventing the cycle of damage from continuing. I send hugs to all who have to deal with this. :grouphug: I had an epiphany like this, that I feel was inspired. that it was something as out of her control or ability to recognize as if she'd been physically blind. well, that wasn't my truly evil npd person . . just an obnoxious manipulative one. (we know when she's bored.) my own npd person - was evil, I cannot accept it was outside of her ability control to take salacious satisfaction in demeaning people. at least not in the beginning - she chose the path she went down. I can't even look at pictures of her smiling because it's "that" smile that she'd smile after she sliced and diced someone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I had an epiphany like this, that I feel was inspired. that it was something as out of her control or ability to recognize as if she'd been physically blind. well, that wasn't my truly evil npd person . . just an obnoxious manipulative one. (we know when she's bored.) my own npd person - was evil, I cannot accept it was outside of her ability control to take salacious satisfaction in demeaning people. at least not in the beginning - she chose the path she went down. I can't even look at pictures of her smiling because it's "that" smile that she'd smile after she sliced and diced someone. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I agree, there are some people out there that are truly evil. They aren't just suffering from a mental disorder. They are also evil in the sense that they genuinely gain tremendous pleasure from the suffering of others and seek to create that suffering for their own enjoyment. And can be very crafty at keeping most people from seeing who they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Why can't your husband pick them up? They're his parents. I think that sounds like a fabulous solution. Your kids are too busy...getting bigger schedule and all. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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