Religion and LGBTQ

[Scarlett]

Why not? As a psychology major, I thought this long before I ever heard any research or evidence for it. People certainly have different levels of sex drive, why wouldn't it make sense that they have varying levels of sexual attraction to each gender? Just about any human characteristic I can think of falls on a continuum. Why not sexual attraction? Or gender identity?

Well when my son was 3 he declared he was a puppy. For a few months he annoyed the heck out of his dad by crawling around like a dog, hanging out his tongue and barking his answers to us. But soon he realized he is indeed a boy and that was that. I think one time he said he wished he was a girl because pink is a pretty color. I told him boys can like pink too and that was that.

 

So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok.

[Frances]

Well when my son was 3 he declared he was a puppy. For a few months he annoyed the heck out of his dad by crawling around like a dog, hanging out his tongue and barking his answers to us. But soon he realized he is indeed a boy and that was that. I think one time he said he wished he was a girl because pink is a pretty color. I told him boys can like pink too and that was that.

 

So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok.

I also don't personally know anyone who is transgendered and the first time I heard of it, I didn't really understand. But I chose to educate myself by reading books and articles and watching documentaries. Personally, I think it's very important to try understand people who are different from ourselves instead of judging something we don't understand.

 

I was also talking about sexual attraction being on a continuum.

[Joker]

Well when my son was 3 he declared he was a puppy. For a few months he annoyed the heck out of his dad by crawling around like a dog, hanging out his tongue and barking his answers to us. But soon he realized he is indeed a boy and that was that. I think one time he said he wished he was a girl because pink is a pretty color. I told him boys can like pink too and that was that.

 

So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok.

My transgender son has never dated so there is zero behavior to make OK. He dresses life any normal teen in jeans and t-shirts. He has a short haircut but that means nothing. He identifies as a male, though. He prefers to be called a masculine name and be identified by male pronouns.

 

Trying to be OK with being identified as a female almost caused him to end his life. Now, he is like any other teen. No medications. No self - harming. Just happy that those in his life, including doctors, teachers, peers, friends, and family refer to him how he wishes. He goes to school. He studies hard (top 3% in a class of over 600). He volunteers.

 

He wants no attention to be on him being transgender. He's not trying to excuse anything but he is just trying to live.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Joker

[Joker]

As far as sexual attraction begin on a continuum, I've decided it must be. It must be because of the number of people I've met who think anyone who identifies as non-heterosexual can just choose to like the other sex. That's not something I could do but apparently many others can.

[quark]

So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok.

 

Thank you for admitting that you have zero life experience with this. It helps to know. I wish more people would come out and just say that they don't know.

[ebunny]

As far as I'm concerned; any action that increases love in the world is :thumbup1:. Whatever the gender orientation or sexual orientation. 

 

fwiw, its interesting that religion? or the religious? concern themselves so much with, to be crass, the happenings in the bedroom. As long as its not marital rape or domestic violence; its ridiculous that the sexual life of individuals comes under the scope of religion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mergath]

Thank you for admitting that you have zero life experience with this. It helps to know. I wish more people would come out and just say that they don't know.

 

:iagree:

 

Scarlett, do you ever think it might be to your benefit to go out and meet some gay people? Expanding your world might just enrich your life. I bet if you asked around, there would be more than a few gay or trans people in your area who would love to take the time to allow you to get to know them. I know you're aware that many of us on this forum are part of the LGBTQ community, but it's different to really get to know someone in real life.

[Laura Corin]

Why not? As a psychology major, I thought this long before I ever heard any research or evidence for it. People certainly have different levels of sex drive, why wouldn't it make sense that they have varying levels of sexual attraction to each gender? Just about any human characteristic I can think of falls on a continuum. Why not sexual attraction? Or gender identity?

 

When I went to University back in the dark ages, the drama department where I spent much of my time was a welcoming and friendly place that did not make judgements about sexual orientation.  Of the students, most were bi, some were completely straight and some were completely gay.  I'm sure that the department attracted more than the average number of people in the first place who were not straight, but I also think that the accepting atmosphere allowed a lot of people to express their true natures.

 

There are a lot of bi people out there: after all, if they end up happily committed to a straight marriage (as I did) their underlying nature doesn't come up in conversation much.

[regentrude]

I don't really know any homosexuals. If I did I can't imagine we would be friends. Acquaintances maybe. Our belief system would be so far apart there would be no basis for a friendship.

 

Considering the percentage in the population, it is highly likely that you do know some. They just may, for obvious reasons, not be comfortable sharing their orientation with you.

[regentrude]

So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok.

 

What "behavior"???

 

I am very fortunate and have no gender identity issues and no personal life experience with it either, but I imagine it to be utter torment to suffer from gender dysphoria, especially since society is so incredibly hostile. 

I think they just want to be left in peace.

Edited January 23, 2017 by regentrude

[Twolittleboys]

As far as sexual attraction begin on a continuum, I've decided it must be. It must be because of the number of people I've met who think anyone who identifies as non-heterosexual can just choose to like the other sex. That's not something I could do but apparently many others can.

I do agree with the continuum.

 

While I do realize that generally non-heterosexual people can't just change (and no reason they should other than that it would be more convenient for them) their sexual orientation, I don't quite get it. I don't consider myself gay (or bi) but with some societal pressure/conditioning I don't think it would be much of a stretch for me to feel attracted to women.

 

And even though I really try I can't understand transgender. I do believe and understand that it is a big deal to many and there is nothing wrong with that but I can't quite understand it emotionally. To me, gender is just not such a big deal. Maybe it is just a lack of imagination (after all, I don't know how I would feel if I had been born male), but honestly I don't think it would bother me. It would be different if our society was stricter regarding gender roles (e.g. what jobs, hobbies, interests you can have) but for the most part you can do whatever without being limited by what gender you are born with. It would be a bit difficult of course to change now (just as it would be difficult to have a new name) but I just can't imagine that I would have been bothered if I had been born as a boy (again, maybe just my lack of imagination).

 

Not sure the above comes across correctly - I don't mean to belittle people who feel strongly about their sexual orientation/gender at all. I just don't seem to feel the same way so yes, I would agree that there must be some sort of continuum in this regard.

[Mimm]

To all you people quoting Bible verses and justifying your behavior, congratulations. You are driving people away from the church. You must feel very proud.

 

When Jesus was asked what the most important things were, he said love God, love others. Not, "Love God, make sure others don't sin." Not, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." (You have no idea how this makes me cringe.)

 

Love God.

Love others.

 

If I do that, I figure I'm doing ok. IF homosexuality is a sin, I feel ok standing before God and saying, "Well, you gave me a gay daughter. And I loved her. Every day. I'll let you deal with the sin stuff." Last I checked, God didn't need MY help making sure everyone else stayed in line. Jeez, I have enough work to do on myself. I'm still working on that loving God, loving others thing.

[FaithManor]

When I went to University back in the dark ages, the drama department where I spent much of my time was a welcoming and friendly place that did not make judgements about sexual orientation. Of the students, most were bi, some were completely straight and some were completely gay. I'm sure that the department attracted more than the average number of people in the first place who were not straight, but I also think that the accepting atmosphere allowed a lot of people to express their true natures.

 

There are a lot of bi people out there: after all, if they end up happily committed to a straight marriage (as I did) their underlying nature doesn't come up in conversation much.

Very true. My son is bi, but leans slightly hetero. He has a girlfriend at the moment and is very happy. She is well aware of his orientation and fine with it. So it does not come up. However, within our family, the few that know, my male dna donor included, treat him like unbelievable crap. It is staggering the hateful comments and the condescension. The dna donor - who was warned to NEVER refer to me as his daughter ever again nor to my children as his grandchildren - is essentially excommunicated, and if my brother does not get his wife's tongue under control will be the next along with a nephew. Thankfully my other two nephews and my two nieces are wonderful people.

 

As for my mom, if she continues defending her husband because she thinks she is a bad wife if she does not, she will end up cut off as well. It is unfortunate because I love her and would like to have a relationship with her, but I do not love her more than my son. I will not prioritize a relationship with her over one with him. That is doubly sad for her because she and that man are going bankrupt and when he dies and she can only draw one social security, she will not be able to provide for herself. My brother is broke from his stroke, and my sister is a grad school student in France living on a small grant and tutoring money. Without dh and I, she will be homeless and probably die quickly. But she is also a grown woman and that is her choice which I will respect.

 

So for the "I can't love someone I do not agree with. I cannot associate with people I disapprove of" crowd. Just remember that the cutting off thing is a two way street.

[Veritaserum]

Love and approval are two different things.

 

Surely you have friends who you love but don't approve of all of their decisions? I certainly do, and I have friends who love me but don't approve of all of mine.

"Approval" when we are discussing fundamental elements of a person's being is vastly different from loving someone who makes bad choices (according to you).

 

I have experience with being loved despite my "bad" choices and it isn't nice. I do not feel comfortable with my religious family members because I know (based on my time in the church and things they've said in my presence) that they are judging me negatively. I don't feel accepted as I am: a good person who no longer shares their religious beliefs. They see me as an apostate, an Other. There's a barrier to the kind of close relationship I wish we could have.

 

On queer issues, there's plenty of data showing that affirmation and acceptance by a person's family has a huge impact on their long-term mental health and wellbeing. Rejecting or disapproving of a child's queerness creates a huge possibility of suicide, drug abuse, and other tragic outcomes. Love without acceptance and approval is not enough.

[bettyandbob]

To all you people quoting Bible verses and justifying your behavior, congratulations. You are driving people away from the church. You must feel very proud.

 

When Jesus was asked what the most important things were, he said love God, love others. Not, "Love God, make sure others don't sin." Not, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." (You have no idea how this makes me cringe.)

 

Love God.

Love others.

 

If I do that, I figure I'm doing ok. IF homosexuality is a sin, I feel ok standing before God and saying, "Well, you gave me a gay daughter. And I loved her. Every day. I'll let you deal with the sin stuff." Last I checked, God didn't need MY help making sure everyone else stayed in line. Jeez, I have enough work to do on myself. I'm still working on that loving God, loving others thing.

Driving people away from church is something I will never understand.

[bettyandbob]

Very true. My son is bi, but leans slightly hetero. He has a girlfriend at the moment and is very happy. She is well aware of his orientation and fine with it. So it does not come up. However, within our family, the few that know, my male dna donor included, treat him like unbelievable crap. It is staggering the hateful comments and the condescension. The dna donor - who was warned to NEVER refer to me as his daughter ever again nor to my children as his grandchildren - is essentially excommunicated, and if my brother does not get his wife's tongue under control will be the next along with a nephew. Thankfully my other two nephews and my two nieces are wonderful people.

 

As for my mom, if she continues defending her husband because she thinks she is a bad wife if she does not, she will end up cut off as well. It is unfortunate because I love her and would like to have a relationship with her, but I do not love her more than my son. I will not prioritize a relationship with her over one with him. That is doubly sad for her because she and that man are going bankrupt and when he dies and she can only draw one social security, she will not be able to provide for herself. My brother is broke from his stroke, and my sister is a grad school student in France living on a small grant and tutoring money. Without dh and I, she will be homeless and probably die quickly. But she is also a grown woman and that is her choice which I will respect.

 

So for the "I can't love someone I do not agree with. I cannot associate with people I disapprove of" crowd. Just remember that the cutting off thing is a two way street.

Faith I'm sorry you've had to cut your family off to support your DS. Clearly, it's the right thing to do. My father is judgemental and controlling and I've finally started to.limit contact. It's painful to make these decisions and move on. My immediate family had a much more relaxed holiday season with my small steps. I hope your family has had a similar relief.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

I have experience with being loved despite my "bad" choices and it isn't nice. I do not feel comfortable with my religious family members because I know (based on my time in the church and things they've said in my presence) that they are judging me negatively. I don't feel accepted as I am: a good person who no longer shares their religious beliefs.

It's too bad you feel this way.  It sounds like you need people to agree with you to feel comfortable with them.  It's certainly true that you don't have as much in common with these people as you did before, but it sounds like your discomfort is partly projection.  

[Greta]

As much as I've tried to model love and acceptance, my gay/bi (she hasn't decided if boys are still an option for her) daughter has pretty much decided she's not a Christian anymore. I'm sad. And I feel my voice is drowned out by all the hateful ones.

 

 

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry.  :grouphug:  My daughter left the Christian faith primarily over this issue as well (though there were other factors too).  

[Scarlett]

As far as sexual attraction begin on a continuum, I've decided it must be. It must be because of the number of people I've met who think anyone who identifies as non-heterosexual can just choose to like the other sex. That's not something I could do but apparently many others can.

Just ftr I do not believe people can just choose to be attracted to anyone of any sex.

[Scarlett]

Considering the percentage in the population, it is highly likely that you do know some. They just may, for obvious reasons, not be comfortable sharing their orientation with you.

I thought I had read the percentage is actually low. I can't speak to people's attraction but I do know no one I know is living as a homosexual.

[Scarlett]

I also don't personally know anyone who is transgendered and the first time I heard of it, I didn't really understand. But I chose to educate myself by reading books and articles and watching documentaries. Personally, I think it's very important to try understand people who are different from ourselves instead of judging something we don't understand.

 

I was also talking about sexual attraction being on a continuum.

I have read a lot about it. My conclusions are much different from those here though.

[Scarlett]

What "behavior"???

 

I am very fortunate and have no gender identity issues and no personal life experience with it either, but I imagine it to be utter torment to suffer from gender dysphoria, especially since society is so incredibly hostile.

I think they just want to be left in peace.

I agree it would be torment and I am sorry people are hostile. I am not hostile and I don't have any friends who are hostile about it.

[quark]

[...]I imagine it to be utter torment to suffer from gender dysphoria, especially since society is so incredibly hostile.

I agree so wholeheartedly because I have seen that torment. I have watched someone dear to me suffer with it from childhood. Perhaps it started with not knowing what it is, then knowing and not being able to come out for fear of rejection. A young child. Imagine what rejection could do to the children. Then, imagine what acceptance could do for more of them.

[Frances]

I have read a lot about it. My conclusions are much different from those here though.

"Growing Up Trans" on Frontline on PBS is a documentary that probably helped my understanding more than anything. Although I had read lots of different things by the time I saw it, hearing the actual stories of families with trans children really helped me to understand and empathize with what they were experiencing.

[Scarlett]

"Growing Up Trans" on Frontline on PBS is a documentary that probably helped my understanding more than anything. Although I had read lots of different things by the time I saw it, hearing the actual stories of families with trans children really helped me to understand and empathize with what they were experiencing.

I do empathize with such families.

[Veritaserum]

It's too bad you feel this way. It sounds like you need people to agree with you to feel comfortable with them. It's certainly true that you don't have as much in common with these people as you did before, but it sounds like your discomfort is partly projection.

I don't need them to agree, but I do need them to respect my life choices as valid. I don't question the validity of choosing a religious life. If it fulfills them and helps them be better people, I'm happy for them. That sentiment is not reciprocated.

 

I concede that I'm defensive around them, but that's largely due to their previous behavior. For example, at a family birthday brunch my brother and sister talked in depth about how to get people to come back to church. I was sitting across the table from them. After twenty minutes or so I suggested to them that not everyone is better off returning to church and that it's important to understand someone's personal journey when attempting to minister to them. The conversation turned nasty (mainly due to my BIL) and I left in tears.

 

That's only one example.

 

For the most part I hold my tongue when talk turns religious. They don't feel a need to censor themselves because they "know" they are "right," but they sure don't like it when I respectfully offer up my alternative point of view.

 

My transgender son feels largely invisible at family events because people generally ignore him. They don't want to acknowledge his identity and they don't want to hurt him, so they avoid the issue by avoiding him. Is that love?

[Mergath]

I do empathize with such families.

 

Pity is not the same thing as empathy.

[quark]

To all of you here experiencing the pain of rejection, :grouphug: . I am so sorry this is happening.

[Katy]

The problem is really that the Bible isn't very clear about what to do where culture and politics clash with faith.  I mean, you can read Galatians and Ephesians and see Paul basically arguing to lie to people for the sake of Christ, but not to offend people. That the law is meant to serve us, and not us the law.  That all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. Many of these things were political and cultural issues, and they were unimportant compared to bringing people to Christ. And yet Paul was very harsh about gossip and sexual sin, but okay with lying and defying other rules such as dietary laws. It might lead one to question whether Paul himself was gay, and struggled with the meaning of it.

 

I think the religious community, even the far-right, is coming around on the transgender thing. I know I was flipping channels one day and came upon Pat Robertson on the 700 club being asked about someone who was transgender and he was okay with gender reassignment surgery.  It shocked me, but I didn't dream it, here's a huffpo article with video:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/pat-robertson-transgender_n_3672244.html

 

I think many of these things are more political than biblical.  We're Methodist, and the general council keeps voting to delay deciding the homosexual issue, knowing there will likely be a church split when they do make a decision, whatever that is. I think the biggest problem is that most of us reluctantly agree the bible says homosexuality is a sin, but the factions that are fighting over this are fighting to either 1) ignore the bible completely and have homosexuals in leadership and gay marriages in the church or 2) Throw them out altogether.  I think most Methodists would prefer to welcome everyone into the church, and keep people who are biblically sinful out of leadership, without throwing anyone out.

 

Ultimately, I think in the next 20-50 years as the older generations retire from church leadership, you'll find that most mainline faiths aren't going to consider who someone identifies as or who they love as very important.  But now it matters.  If this bothers you, you should probably find a more liberal church.

 

As a Christian, I think the correct thing to do is to know the bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.  Acting out of love and obeying the Spirit is MUCH more difficult than having some arbitrary set of laws to follow.  You must constantly check to see where your ego/flesh is in play.

[Charlie]

The problem is really that the Bible isn't very clear about what to do where culture and politics clash with faith.  I mean, you can read Galatians and Ephesians and see Paul basically arguing to lie to people for the sake of Christ, but not to offend people. That the law is meant to serve us, and not us the law.  That all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. Many of these things were political and cultural issues, and they were unimportant compared to bringing people to Christ. And yet Paul was very harsh about gossip and sexual sin, but okay with lying and defying other rules such as dietary laws. It might lead one to question whether Paul himself was gay, and struggled with the meaning of it.

 

I think the religious community, even the far-right, is coming around on the transgender thing. I know I was flipping channels one day and came upon Pat Robertson on the 700 club being asked about someone who was transgender and he was okay with gender reassignment surgery.  It shocked me, but I didn't dream it, here's a huffpo article with video:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/pat-robertson-transgender_n_3672244.html

 

I think many of these things are more political than biblical.  We're Methodist, and the general council keeps voting to delay deciding the homosexual issue, knowing there will likely be a church split when they do make a decision, whatever that is. I think the biggest problem is that most of us reluctantly agree the bible says homosexuality is a sin, but the factions that are fighting over this are fighting to either 1) ignore the bible completely and have homosexuals in leadership and gay marriages in the church or 2) Throw them out altogether.  I think most Methodists would prefer to welcome everyone into the church, and keep people who are biblically sinful out of leadership, without throwing anyone out.

 

Ultimately, I think in the next 20-50 years as the older generations retire from church leadership, you'll find that most mainline faiths aren't going to consider who someone identifies as or who they love as very important.  But now it matters.  If this bothers you, you should probably find a more liberal church.

 

As a Christian, I think the correct thing to do is to know the bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.  Acting out of love and obeying the Spirit is MUCH more difficult than having some arbitrary set of laws to follow.  You must constantly check to see where your ego/flesh is in play.

 

As an outsider, I see every Christian claim to do this. The way I see it, either you can't really understand what this spirit is communicating to you, or it's deceiving most of you, or trolling all of you, or you Christians attribute your own personal moral outlook to this supposedly external source to validate what you already think. You all read roughly the same book and come away with vastly different conclusions, many of them directly opposing each other. And for sure in twenty years homosexuality will be denied as important in the church just like segregation and the suffragette movement is today. But history tells a different story, and people aren't ignorant of this.

 

I think kids today are more knowledgeable than ever before. Few young Christians today will accept the claim that homosexuality is a result of demonic influence (although I read something about that just recently, poor teen). They know it's a matter of biology. And increasingly, they know people who fit the category but defy the stereotype. They know the same arguments were used in the past by the church against other so-called outsiders that are perfectly, and harmlessly integrated into society today (divorced and/or working women, Jews, etc). The argument is falling on deaf ears because it's loosing traction. It's a faulty argument, an illogical argument, an insensitive and mean-spirited argument, and people increasingly see it as such. So people like the OPs friends are increasingly interpreted as being cruel and hostile, even as a few holdouts support such things. And in twenty years, many Christians will deny these hold outs ever existed. Reference slavery for examples.

 

[FaithManor]

I don't need them to agree, but I do need them to respect my life choices as valid. I don't question the validity of choosing a religious life. If it fulfills them and helps them be better people, I'm happy for them. That sentiment is not reciprocated.

 

I concede that I'm defensive around them, but that's largely due to their previous behavior. For example, at a family birthday brunch my brother and sister talked in depth about how to get people to come back to church. I was sitting across the table from them. After twenty minutes or so I suggested to them that not everyone is better off returning to church and that it's important to understand someone's personal journey when attempting to minister to them. The conversation turned nasty (mainly due to my BIL) and I left in tears.

 

That's only one example.

 

For the most part I hold my tongue when talk turns religious. They don't feel a need to censor themselves because they "know" they are "right," but they sure don't like it when I respectfully offer up my alternative point of view.

 

My transgender son feels largely invisible at family events because people generally ignore him. They don't want to acknowledge his identity and they don't want to hurt him, so they avoid the issue by avoiding him. Is that love?

This. It is the immense ego, the condescension that other people should sit and swallow the vitriol shoveled up as caviar, and say "yum, yum". It is the constantly picking painful topics of conversation and going on for hours about them, then judging us for not wanting to be around such sullen, disgusting behavior and expecting us to act like it is all so wonderful with the further expectation that we not reciprocate in kind despite the fact that their lives are not perfect and there is much we could say if we were willing to embrace tit for tat. There is no point in having relationship with people who do their level best to bring you down, tempt you to be your worst self.

[quark]

I'm linking 2 articles here with the hope that it will help the discussion.

 

Breaking through the binary from it's pronounced metrosexual

 

A google books link - See page 221 (or table 10.3 if you don't want to wade through it all) for examples of the gender continuum

[Katy]

As an outsider, I see every Christian claim to do this. The way I see it, either you can't really understand what this spirit is communicating to you, or it's deceiving most of you, or trolling all of you, or you Christians attribute your own personal moral outlook to this supposedly external source to validate what you already think. You all read roughly the same book and come away with vastly different conclusions, many of them directly opposing each other. And for sure in twenty years homosexuality will be denied as important in the church just like segregation and the suffragette movement is today. But history tells a different story, and people aren't ignorant of this.

 

I think kids today are more knowledgeable than ever before. Few young Christians today will accept the claim that homosexuality is a result of demonic influence (although I read something about that just recently, poor teen). They know it's a matter of biology. And increasingly, they know people who fit the category but defy the stereotype. They know the same arguments were used in the past by the church against other so-called outsiders that are perfectly, and harmlessly integrated into society today (divorced and/or working women, Jews, etc). The argument is falling on deaf ears because it's loosing traction. It's a faulty argument, an illogical argument, an insensitive and mean-spirited argument, and people increasingly see it as such. So people like the OPs friends are increasingly interpreted as being cruel and hostile, even as a few holdouts support such things. And in twenty years, many Christians will deny these hold outs ever existed. Reference slavery for examples.

 

 

This seems outside the scope of this topic and more about Christianity itself, but I don't know any Christian who takes their faith seriously who would claim they heard some absolute judgment about something beyond their own experience from the Holy Spirit. The journey is more difficult and internal than that.

 

I do, however, unfortunately know a lot of people who don't care much about becoming more like or having a relationship with God, but who do fiercely guard some sort of tribal identity as "Christian" making them feel morally superior to others. I assume that is the Christianity to which you speak.  That isn't so very different from many identities people assume - its purpose being merely an ego-driven source of identity and self-righteousness rather than becoming better.

 

And you're correct, the discrepancies in interpretation is precisely the reason that some denominations don't believe people are capable of interpreting the bible themselves at all, that instead a trained priest should do it for them.

[TranquilMind]

Love without acceptance and approval is not enough.

This is the real problem right here.    The demand to equate love with approval of one's actions. 

 

Yes, it is enough and it happens regularly that parents love their kids who are doing things they hate.   Every day people still love parents who abandoned them, who went off and had affairs, and did all kinds of things.  People still love kids who abandoned them.   It is most decidedly possible to love someone without approving of what they do, especially when what they do is completely contradictory to your shared faith culture and everybody knows it. 

 

Anyone who has every raised children to adulthood knows full well that you can (and will from time to time) love the child without accepting and approving what he is doing. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

It's too bad you feel this way.  It sounds like you need people to agree with you to feel comfortable with them.  It's certainly true that you don't have as much in common with these people as you did before, but it sounds like your discomfort is partly projection.  

This is a problem, for anyone.  We are never going to have full approval for everything from everyone. 

 

We need to just know that our own behavior and words are right before God.  (And no one is perfect on this one, that's for sure). 

[Scarlett]

Pity is not the same thing as empathy.

 

 

I know what empathy is.  

[Scarlett]

:iagree:

 

Scarlett, do you ever think it might be to your benefit to go out and meet some gay people? Expanding your world might just enrich your life. I bet if you asked around, there would be more than a few gay or trans people in your area who would love to take the time to allow you to get to know them. I know you're aware that many of us on this forum are part of the LGBTQ community, but it's different to really get to know someone in real life.

 

 

To what end?  

[Mergath]

To what end?  

 

Because when you understand and truly know a person, it's hard not to come to love them. And I'm pretty sure your Bible has some very definitive things to say on the importance of people loving one another. You obviously have an interest in this ongoing conversation about the LGBTQ community, given that you post often in every single thread we have on the subject, so wouldn't it make sense to meet some gay or trans people?

[Lawana]

This is the real problem right here. The demand to equate love with approval of one's actions.

 

Yes, it is enough and it happens regularly that parents love their kids who are doing things they hate. Every day people still love parents who abandoned them, who went off and had affairs, and did all kinds of things. People still love kids who abandoned them. It is most decidedly possible to love someone without approving of what they do, especially when what they do is completely contradictory to your shared faith culture and everybody knows it.

 

Anyone who has every raised children to adulthood knows full well that you can (and will from time to time) love the child without accepting and approving what he is doing.

I am not Laura and she can speak for herself, but the way I understand her use of approval is about acceptance of core self, not approval of actions. Gender identity and sexual orientation are at the fundamental core of identity. When the queer and gay are routinely spoken of as sinful, even when qualified by "love the sinner" rhetoric, most persons will internalize the utter shame of themselves when they cannot match the ideal presented by religion or culture.

 

In a separate vein, the issue I see with the dogmatic religious prohibitions of gender and sexual orientation differences, is when a religious organization, or individual using religious reasoning, is so sure they are right, and other views are wrong, that they feel justified in persecuting (overtly or merely with thinly veiled words of contempt) those you fall in the above categories.

 

I was an older teen when I realized that there were many, many religions, and many more people that felt as certain of the absolute truth of their own beliefs as were those in the religion in which I was raised. And they equated "belief" with "knowledge". Taking a step back, it was shocking that a subjective belief could be used to attempt to coerce others to fall in line with those perticular beliefs. As if one set of beliefs could be shown to be superior to all others.

[Charlie]

 

 

This seems outside the scope of this topic and more about Christianity itself, but I don't know any Christian who takes their faith seriously who would claim they heard some absolute judgment about something beyond their own experience from the Holy Spirit. The journey is more difficult and internal than that.

 

I do, however, unfortunately know a lot of people who don't care much about becoming more like or having a relationship with God, but who do fiercely guard some sort of tribal identity as "Christian" making them feel morally superior to others. I assume that is the Christianity to which you speak.  That isn't so very different from many identities people assume - its purpose being merely an ego-driven source of identity and self-righteousness rather than becoming better.

 

And you're correct, the discrepancies in interpretation is precisely the reason that some denominations don't believe people are capable of interpreting the bible themselves at all, that instead a trained priest should do it for them.

 

I don't know what you mean by the bold, but I'm responding to the conversation in light of the OP's request for biblical references that her Christian friends might be using to justify their actions. It is my understanding that Christians who throw their children out of their homes do so because they believe they do understand the bible correctly, and are following the call of the holy spirit. My comments about the arguments used by the OP's friends getting less and less popular as time goes by can be seen in the trends of the church in history, among Christians who believed they understood the bible correctly and were led by the holy spirit. [edit - that's the argument I'm referring to, hostility against lgbt, not Christianity in general, although I think the two are related so I'm probably being vague, sorry].

 

Your second paragraph just reiterates the problem I saw in your last comment. Everyone who thinks they have a relationship with God can't be right, but no one thinks they're wrong. The OP's friends likely think they have a close, personal relationship with God, as do those Christians who are most progressive about sexuality. I imagine people who kick their kids out do so because they think it's the morally high road, and they believe Jesus is holding their hands and giving them the strength to make such a sacrifice. At least, this is the impression many give to justify an action that is increasingly seen as cruel or unjustified by society.

 

 

 

edited for clarity of argument

Edited January 23, 2017 by Charlie

[TranquilMind]

I am not Laura and she can speak for herself, but the way I understand her use of approval is about acceptance of core self, not approval of actions. Gender identity and sexual orientation are at the fundamental core of identity. When the queer and gay are routinely spoken of as sinful, even when qualified by "love the sinner" rhetoric, most persons will internalize the utter shame of themselves when they cannot match the ideal presented by religion or culture.

 

I'm not the one conflating the two. 

​I think anyone can love the self even while disagreeing with actions taken. 

 

Not everyone thinks that visible behavior or decisions made = core self . 

 

Really, no one knows your core self.   And no one who knows his scriptures agrees with persecution. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by TranquilMind

[Scarlett]

Because when you understand and truly know a person, it's hard not to come to love them. And I'm pretty sure your Bible has some very definitive things to say on the importance of people loving one another. You obviously have an interest in this ongoing conversation about the LGBTQ community, given that you post often in every single thread we have on the subject, so wouldn't it make sense to meet some gay or trans people?

 

 

I assume you are equating love with acceptance.  The Bible does promote love for our neighbor.  Ahead of that is love for God and that would of course include loving his standards and making those standards known to any who choose to listen.  We pursue peace with all and have no specific beef with homosexuals.  We do however seek to form our close friendships with those who are also seeking to uphold God's standards.  

[Mergath]

I assume you are equating love with acceptance.  The Bible does promote love for our neighbor.  Ahead of that is love for God and that would of course include loving his standards and making those standards known to any who choose to listen.  We pursue peace with all and have no specific beef with homosexuals.  We do however seek to form our close friendships with those who are also seeking to uphold God's standards.  

 

That's really, really sad. You have my sympathy for feeling obligated to live that way.

 

So if you have no interest in understanding gay and trans people, no interest in befriending them, and no interesting in changing or broadening your thinking, why continue to post on these threads?

 

[Scarlett]

That's really, really sad. You have my sympathy for feeling obligated to live that way.

 

So if you have no interest in understanding gay and trans people, no interest in befriending them, and no interesting in changing or broadening your thinking, why continue to post on these threads?

 

 

It is not surprising you find it sad that I choose to live by God's standards when you don't believe in those standards.  So see how these conversations never go anywhere?  Rest assured I don't feel 'obligated' to live anyway.  I freely chose to live the way I live just like you choose to live the way you live. 

 

As far as posting on this thread the OP was asking questions I felt I could answer.  

[Lawana]

I'm not the one conflating the two.

​I think anyone can love the self even while disagreeing with actions taken.

 

Not everyone thinks that visible behavior or decisions made = core self .

 

Really, no one knows your core self. And no one who knows his scriptures agrees with persecution.

Are you saying you think that sexuality and gender identity are decisions one makes? That making a different decision is just as possible?

 

Rejecting someone because of who they are at the core is what i think is being discussed here.

[Mergath]

It is not surprising you find it sad that I choose to live by God's standards when you don't believe in those standards.  So see how these conversations never go anywhere?  Rest assured I don't feel 'obligated' to live anyway.  I freely chose to live the way I live just like you choose to live the way you live. 

 

As far as posting on this thread the OP was asking questions I felt I could answer.  

 

No, I find it sad that you feel like you can only have friends who believe exactly what you believe. One of the joys of life for me is getting to know new people who are different from me.  And I can't even imagine feeling forced to end a friendship if one of my friends changed his or her religious views. That would be so hurtful for everyone involved, and so unnecessary.

[Scarlett]

No, I find it sad that you feel like you can only have friends who believe exactly what you believe. One of the joys of life for me is getting to know new people who are different from me.  And I can't even imagine feeling forced to end a friendship if one of my friends changed his or her religious views. That would be so hurtful for everyone involved, and so unnecessary.

 

Forced?  I am not forced to do anything.  And I do have friends who do not believe as I do, but naturally closest bonds are with those who have common goals, beliefs, etc.  

[TranquilMind]

Are you saying you think that sexuality and gender identity are decisions one makes? That making a different decision is just as possible?

 

Rejecting someone because of who they are at the core is what i think is being discussed here.

Yes, we all make decisions to pursue avenues we find acceptable (sexually and just in general), and decline other possibilities because they simply do not line up with our values.

 

One person will decide he must pursue some relationship in the office because he "has to be happy" even though he is married.    Another will walk away because his values lie elsewhere. 

 

This is absolutely no different. 

[TranquilMind]

No, I find it sad that you feel like you can only have friends who believe exactly what you believe. One of the joys of life for me is getting to know new people who are different from me.  And I can't even imagine feeling forced to end a friendship if one of my friends changed his or her religious views. That would be so hurtful for everyone involved, and so unnecessary.

I bet you don't have any close friends who believe as Scarlett does. 

[Mergath]

I bet you don't have any close friends who believe as Scarlett does. 

 

Well, I can't, can I? If a person believes they can only be friends with fellow conservative Christians, how could I possibly befriend them? I can't force someone to spend time with me against their will.

 

But do you mean, do I have any conservative Christian friends who are willing to be friends with people outside their faith, yes, I do. I have friends (real life friends, not internet friends) who are liberal Christians, friends who are conservative Christians, and Christian friends who fall somewhere in between.