College accommodations, do they ever stop?

sassenach · November 4, 2016

This is a curiosity question. I'm back in school at the local CC and a friend of mine has also returned. She's a bit ahead of me and we've been swapping info on classes, professors and such. Her goal is to transfer to a highly competitive public university to pursue a degree in child psychology.

Here's my question, she has a significant memory disorder and at the CC level, has received a lot of accommodations. She regularly receives A's for papers that would earn me a C. This does not bother me. She works SO hard. She puts in 3 times the number of hours that I do. At the same time, I'm wondering at what point these accommodations will drop off. Can this last all the way to her final goal? Should it?

Daria · November 4, 2016

College accommodations shouldn't impact the grade on the final product.

Student receive accommodations to help them create a final product that is measured by the same standards. If she's being held to a different standard that's a modification, not an accommodation. Generally modified work is only accepted for non-credit.

And yes, many people with disabilities will continue to need accommodations across their lifespan.

regentrude · November 4, 2016

Students receive accommodations all the way through college.

The accommodations should NOT affect the standards for the assignment or exam though. Our students receive extra time on exams, quiet testing, exams in large font, scribes, readers - but ultimately, the same exam is given and the same grading rubric is applied. Anything else would not correctly reflect the level of mastery.

Lowering the standards to give higher grades for work that would not receive the same grade from another student is not ethical, in my opinion. The degree signifies to a potential employer a level of skill and education, and to lower the standards for one individual is misrepresentation.

I am not sure how all these accommodations will translate into a workplace setting though. Clearly, a blind person will receive accommodation if hired, because it is obvious that he will not be able to read small print etc. He will probably be hired into a job where his unique qualifications make him an asset to the company that makes it worth accommodating his disability.

OTOH, I have a hard time imagining an employer who gives his ADD employee twice as much time to finish a project as everybody else - I cannot imagine how such a company would function. From my conversations with the disability coordinator, I understand that by graduation it is expected that students have developed mechanisms to compensate for this kind of disability.

ETA: This may be not the politically correct thing to say, but I say it anyway: there are limits to accommodations, and not every person is suitable for every occupation. It would be ridiculous to expect an employer to accommodate my niece with cerebral palsy to perform any task that requires balance and muscle tone or to accommodate my mentally disabled brother in a job that requires reading and writing which are beyond his mental capacity. I prefer not to be flown by a blind pilot, and I prefer not to drive across a bridge built by an engineer with dyscalculia and a lack of spatial reasoning abilities. Part of the education process, IMO, is also for the young people to identify which kind of work is suitable for their unique circumstances, and to orient themselves accordingly.

Edited November 4, 2016 by regentrude

Julie of KY · November 4, 2016

I agree with Daria and Regentrude.

Accommodations should certainly continue for as long as a student needs them. However, they should be in place to help a student meet their potential by getting around a disability. Accommodations should not cause a student to be graded on a different scale than others.

My son is highly gifted in math, but for years we've worked on how to get around his learning disabilities so that they would not hinder his further education in areas that he is gifted and passionate. He needs accommodations for writing - but he can write an excellent college level paper. He is capable of the output. He should be able to excel in a job requiring team brainstorming and high level math and computer algorithms to solve problems. He shouldn't be held back just because he physically has trouble writing. He can dictate or type, but for years "teacher-types" have complained that he shouldn't be allowed to accelerate in math until he could write the numbers. Oh well, I just kept teaching him the math and doing it all orally until his writing skills caught up to being able to write some of the problems out in calculus - all math was done orally before that and he competes at an elite national level in math so the skill level was there. It's always fun to try to explain to a math coach who is taking my son out of state for competition that he has trouble writing most of the math on paper. With time and maturity my son is developing mechanisms to better work around his disabilities, but in the meantime he needs some accommodations to be able to meet his potential. (Sorry if I went on a tangent here.)

bettyandbob · November 4, 2016

echoing: accommodations should not change the expected quality of work for grading.

Here are some examples of accommodations:

extended time on tests (student must still write the same quality of essay or get the same number of problems correct as other students)

taking lighter than full time class loads while still a full time student

answering tests verbally or using voice to text device

ability to type an assignment when others would need to hand write

alternate demonstrate of mastery (giving oral presentation or creating an experiment and explaining the data instead of writing a paper)

Students can get these accommodations all the way through college. Any university that receives federal funding is subject to section 504 of the rehabilitation act and ADA. Students are typically required to show proof of disability to qualify.

TechWife · November 5, 2016

ETA: This may be not the politically correct thing to say, but I say it anyway: there are limits to accommodations, and not every person is suitable for every occupation. It would be ridiculous to expect an employer to accommodate my niece with cerebral palsy to perform any task that requires balance and muscle tone or to accommodate my mentally disabled brother in a job that requires reading and writing which are beyond his mental capacity. I prefer not to be flown by a blind pilot, and I prefer not to drive across a bridge built by an engineer with dyscalculia and a lack of spatial reasoning abilities. Part of the education process, IMO, is also for the young people to identify which kind of work is suitable for their unique circumstances, and to orient themselves accordingly.

There are established procedures to prevent discrimination against the disabled people. One of them is that a company decides what job tasks are essential and what the essential qualifications are before they begin the hiring process. This is why job descriptions are now so detailed. In the case of the pilot, the employer would determine that the person hired for that position must have a valid FDA pilot's license. The pilot must be able to see to gain a license, so that makes it impossible for an employer to be required to hire a blind pilot. UPS requires it's drivers to be able to lift and carry a 75 lb. package. it is an essential task with an essential skill requirement. If someone has poor balance or is weak and can't carry a 75 lb. package, then they can't meet the job requirements. Provided UPS never hires someone who can't do that, then they are protected from discrimination lawsuits. My volunteer job descriptions are very detailed - they state that I am required to be able to communicate fluently verbally and in writing in the English language, for one, I must be able to stand and walk on hard flooring for periods of time exceeding one hour and I must be able to use stairs in order to assist evacuating patients (essential tasks, essential job skills), etc.. Someone who can't use stairs can't meet those qualifications and therefore they won't be hired for the position. Someone who can't speak and write English fluently due to a disability won't be hired for the position because they can't document their work.

The key is that the employer must think through what the employee is required to do (essential job tasks) and what the essential requirements are. They cannot say that someone must not be blind - that is not an essential job requirement. However, the fact that they must be a licensed pilot is. I conduct patient surveys, so I must be able to travel to patient rooms and navigate through any medical equipment that is in their room. I could do that in a wheelchair. But, because I work with the Child Life Coordinators, I have to be able to assist in the evacuation of any patients I may be caring for under their direction. Therefore, I must be able to use the stairs.

For ADHD, an employer isn't required to provide additional time to complete a task, but they might be required to provide a clock within the sight line of the employee. It all comes down to the line "reasonable accommodations," which is all a university or an employer is required to provide. What is reasonable in a university setting might not be reasonable in a workplace setting and that is perfectly acceptable as long as the job requirements are spelled out in advance and they are evenly applied. My son can be successful in a university setting with accommodations. He may or may not be successful in any given job depending on what the requirements are.

ADA law is a very tricky thing.

8filltheheart · November 5, 2016

Students receive accommodations all the way through college.

The accommodations should NOT affect the standards for the assignment or exam though. Our students receive extra time on exams, quiet testing, exams in large font, scribes, readers - but ultimately, the same exam is given and the same grading rubric is applied. Anything else would not correctly reflect the level of mastery.

Lowering the standards to give higher grades for work that would not receive the same grade from another student is not ethical, in my opinion. The degree signifies to a potential employer a level of skill and education, and to lower the standards for one individual is misrepresentation.

I am not sure how all these accommodations will translate into a workplace setting though. Clearly, a blind person will receive accommodation if hired, because it is obvious that he will not be able to read small print etc. He will probably be hired into a job where his unique qualifications make him an asset to the company that makes it worth accommodating his disability.

OTOH, I have a hard time imagining an employer who gives his ADD employee twice as much time to finish a project as everybody else - I cannot imagine how such a company would function. From my conversations with the disability coordinator, I understand that by graduation it is expected that students have developed mechanisms to compensate for this kind of disability.

ETA: This may be not the politically correct thing to say, but I say it anyway: there are limits to accommodations, and not every person is suitable for every occupation. It would be ridiculous to expect an employer to accommodate my niece with cerebral palsy to perform any task that requires balance and muscle tone or to accommodate my mentally disabled brother in a job that requires reading and writing which are beyond his mental capacity. I prefer not to be flown by a blind pilot, and I prefer not to drive across a bridge built by an engineer with dyscalculia and a lack of spatial reasoning abilities. Part of the education process, IMO, is also for the young people to identify which kind of work is suitable for their unique circumstances, and to orient themselves accordingly.

We have now worked with the the DRS (Dept of Rehabilitative Services) in 2 states for assisting our Aspie. Both have high numbers of severely underemployed Aspies bc they cannot maintain employment for numerous reasons. Pace of output performance is one. (They have described clients with multiple degrees who cannot hold a job. Attending school and employment are 2 different skill sets. I know that I have seen that truth in my own son.)

Bootsie · November 7, 2016

There are established procedures to prevent discrimination against the disabled people. One of them is that a company decides what job tasks are essential and what the essential qualifications are before they begin the hiring process. This is why job descriptions are now so detailed. In the case of the pilot, the employer would determine that the person hired for that position must have a valid FDA pilot's license. The pilot must be able to see to gain a license, so that makes it impossible for an employer to be required to hire a blind pilot. UPS requires it's drivers to be able to lift and carry a 75 lb. package. it is an essential task with an essential skill requirement.

One role of the university has been to serve as a "bonding agency." Some occupations have historically required a college degree, but not a license. An employer expects the grade in a class to reflect a certain amount of competency at a college level. This then becomes tricky. If I am a business hiring an accountant, how am I supposed to know that one student who has an "A" in the accounting class had twice as long on exams as another student who received an "A"? Or, if I am hiring someone for a marketing position, how do I know that one student was not required to make oral presentations in a class while all of the other students in the class did? The business can say that it is essential that the candidate be able to complete a tax form in X minutes or make oral presentations, but it is often assumed that the college degree and grades indicate that the candidate can do that.

TechWife · November 7, 2016

One role of the university has been to serve as a "bonding agency." Some occupations have historically required a college degree, but not a license. An employer expects the grade in a class to reflect a certain amount of competency at a college level. This then becomes tricky. If I am a business hiring an accountant, how am I supposed to know that one student who has an "A" in the accounting class had twice as long on exams as another student who received an "A"? Or, if I am hiring someone for a marketing position, how do I know that one student was not required to make oral presentations in a class while all of the other students in the class did? The business can say that it is essential that the candidate be able to complete a tax form in X minutes or make oral presentations, but it is often assumed that the college degree and grades indicate that the candidate can do that.

There isn't a way for an employer to determine if a student had classroom accommodations. It is illegal for the university to release that information.

By way of your example, if it is a course requirement that there are oral presentations, then the student must do oral presentations. Accommodations do not change course requirements. An accommodation could say that a student be allowed to sit down during a presentation, for example, but it could not exempt a student from a course requirement. Accommodations cannot change the degree requirements, course requirements or the assignment requirements. If an assignment has to be written, then it has to be written. The accommodation might be providing voice to text software to the student. If an assignment is an oral presentation, it must be done orally. If a student is unable to speak for any reason, then they cannot complete the course requirements, therefore they cannot earn a degree that requires that particular course.

For the accounting example, there is no way to know whether or not any employee is going to be able to meet time requirement as time is variable for every employment task and setting. The disability isn't relevant to that as long as the job description is written correctly. The essential job skill is that deadlines set by the supervising manager be met. That allows any employer to terminate any employee that doesn't meet deadlines (as long as they follow proper procedures for termination). You also have to consider that there are many reasons extra time is granted for completing exams in an academic setting, yet that time would not be needed in a professional setting.

Just as all people with disabilities can't succeed in every job, we have to realize that all neurotypical people can't succeed in every job. Holding a degree doesn't guarantee on the job success under any circumstances. Hiring employees is a crap shoot in all circumstances. Having people with disabilities in the marketplace doesn't affect that reality. Accommodations exist so that potential employers can't make snap judgements and must judge each job candidate on his/her own merits as they relate to the job that is to be done. That is why personal contacts through networking and references are so important and it is also why the importance of where a particular college degree was earned fades over time. Every potential employee can build a professional reputation. Professors who have students that excel are generally amenable to serving as a job reference for those students as they start their careers, but after that, it is up to the employee to build their own professional reputation.

People who have disabilities are guaranteed accommodations, they are not guaranteed success at any particular academic degree or employment endeavor. But, then again, neither are the rest of us.

Edited November 7, 2016 by TechWife

regentrude · November 7, 2016

You also have to consider that there are many reasons extra time is granted for completing exams in an academic setting, yet that time would not be needed in a professional setting.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The majority of students who receive extended time either does so because they have difficulty focusing, a smaller number because they have difficulties executing the act of writing. I do not quite understand how either of these issues would go away in a professional setting.

ETA:

By way of your example, if it is a course requirement that there are oral presentations, then the student must do oral presentations. Accommodations do not change course requirements. An accommodation could say that a student be allowed to sit down during a presentation, for example, but it could not exempt a student from a course requirement. Accommodations cannot change the degree requirements, course requirements or the assignment requirements. If an assignment has to be written, then it has to be written. The accommodation might be providing voice to text software to the student. If an assignment is an oral presentation, it must be done orally. If a student is unable to speak for any reason, then they cannot complete the course requirements, therefore they cannot earn a degree that requires that particular course.

That is not entirely correct. Oral presentations may be required from all as part of the grade, but a student with an anxiety disorder may be accommodated by being exempt from presenting in front of the class and be allowed to demonstrate mastery in other forms. The disability support service office of my institution seems to think that is an appropriate accommodation we should make.

Edited November 7, 2016 by regentrude

Daria · November 7, 2016

One role of the university has been to serve as a "bonding agency." Some occupations have historically required a college degree, but not a license. An employer expects the grade in a class to reflect a certain amount of competency at a college level. This then becomes tricky. If I am a business hiring an accountant, how am I supposed to know that one student who has an "A" in the accounting class had twice as long on exams as another student who received an "A"? Or, if I am hiring someone for a marketing position, how do I know that one student was not required to make oral presentations in a class while all of the other students in the class did? The business can say that it is essential that the candidate be able to complete a tax form in X minutes or make oral presentations, but it is often assumed that the college degree and grades indicate that the candidate can do that.

Not making oral presentations wouldn't be an accommodation, but if making oral presentations is key, then I would expect an employer to ask a candidate to demonstrate that skill. I'm a teacher, so making oral presentations is obviously part of my job. Every job I've applied for has asked for demonstration lessons, and interviews, which would tease out that skill.

Accounting is a field that does require a certification, so I'm not sure why one would look at college grades to certify that.

Bootsie · November 8, 2016

Accounting is a field that does require a certification, so I'm not sure why one would look at college grades to certify that.

Accounting does not require certification. Being a CPA requires certification, but many accountants are not CPAs. Also, even students who are going to become CPAs are often hired before they take the CPA exam (based in part on grades)

Bootsie · November 8, 2016

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The majority of students who receive extended time either does so because they have difficulty focusing, a smaller number because they have difficulties executing the act of writing. I do not quite understand how either of these issues would go away in a professional setting.

ETA:

That is not entirely correct. Oral presentations may be required from all as part of the grade, but a student with an anxiety disorder may be accommodated by being exempt from presenting in front of the class and be allowed to demonstrate mastery in other forms. The disability support service office of my institution seems to think that is an appropriate accommodation we should make.

At the university where I previously worked, disability support services also thought this was an appropriate accommodation. I had a student who had accommodations so that no oral presentations were required and another student who had accommodations that any oral presentation was to be done one-on-one with the faculty in front of the class. Neither of these students were unable to "talk"

TechWife · November 8, 2016

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The majority of students who receive extended time either does so because they have difficulty focusing, a smaller number because they have difficulties executing the act of writing. I do not quite understand how either of these issues would go away in a professional setting.

ETA:

That is not entirely correct. Oral presentations may be required from all as part of the grade, but a student with an anxiety disorder may be accommodated by being exempt from presenting in front of the class and be allowed to demonstrate mastery in other forms. The disability support service office of my institution seems to think that is an appropriate accommodation we should make.

Sure, I'll do my best. To a large extent, people choose their jobs. While certainly, every job has tasks with varying degrees of difficulty and skill level, there are components of a work environment that can be "controlled for" as a person self-selects what jobs they apply for and where they continue to work. People can seek out jobs with environments that are amenable to them.

Someone who cannot bear loud noises would self select out of a job managing a restaurant, for example. Someone who cannot give presentations gets a job where that is not a requirement, someone who cannot write quickly doesn't get a job that is writing intensive. In an academic environment, writing is often the best way to assess understanding, whereas in a work environment, writing can be a very small part of a job, if it is there at all.

For focus issues, the work environment is very different than the academic environment. People can self-select for amenable working conditions - whether it be the actual workspace itself (private cubicles vs. team cubicles or other aspects like being allowed to wear headphones as one works). There are a lot of things that are already built into a company culture that can help someone or hurt them as they work around their deficits. These things have to be taken into consideration by the employee when they have ADHD. Some people are better at figuring out work arounds for their environments than others and many times things are learned on a trial and error basis. There will be some jobs that someone with ADHD simply cannot do, and that's fine. They need to find one they can do.

It's a bit the same with the anxiety disorder as well - people can self-select to find an environment that they can work in.

In the work world, the human resources department is the department that controls accommodations, and they do that in a large part through careful construction of job descriptions, but also through a great deal of communication. Some people have very casual accommodations and some people have very specific needs.

With regards to the accommodations, personally, I think the disability support office at your university is allowing much more leeway than the law requires. They are allowed to do that - they can set their own guidelines. ADA is the minimum required, so they can certainly allow more accommodations. From my perspective, more reasonable accommodations would include such things as scheduling the students courses and presentations so that they have adequate time to take required anxiety medication or perform needed relaxation techniques prior to their presentation. That is something that can be done in the workplace, too. Many people would just work that into their schedules, just like they work in their lunch breaks.

There may be issues with the way course descriptions and syllabi are being written as far as including language they can't get around. Some universities have a lot overall control as far as dictating a format that must be used by all professors and some (most, maybe?) are very individualized to the department or professor. It would be ideal if the course descriptions and syllabi were reviewed specifically for ADA compliance by someone who knows the law and the academic environment. Then, once those are in compliance with ADA the faculty and the ODS can work together to figure out a set of accommodations that are deemed reasonable for each course while maintaining the academic integrity of the university and the degree. There would still need to be some individualization because I doubt every variable could be controlled for, but having a comprehensive review would go a long way towards making sure 1) The university is ADA compliant 2) The academic integrity of the course, department and degree program is maintained and 3) Gives the students who have the ability to access the course. Success is up to the student.

ETA: I realize that a course syllabus is somewhat organic, but I do think that a well designed periodic review process would be beneficial. If there were a committee that met on a regular basis comprised of professors, someone from the ODS and and ADA attorney present, it would be helpful. Individual professors or student with questions about why something was done the way it was could bring their concerns forward for discussions look for ways to make the particular area of difficulty meet the goals of ADA compliance while maintaining academic integrity, Information gained or given in these meeting can then be put into place right away (if that's appropriate and possible), while others cannot be done at all and still others will be put under a comprehensive review prior to the next time the course is offered.

Keep in mind that I am not a human resources person or an expert on the law. What I have learned is through my experiences walking my son through the process at his university. Maybe I tell him to "buck up and do the work" more often than the university would, I don't know. One of my (secret) goals is to help him be okay with the fact that he's sometimes uncomfortable because sometimes life is just messy and we are uncomfortable.

I wonder what department would have to go look for the funding. At DS' uni ODS reports to the Dean of Students. So maybe the Dean of Students should head up a big interdisciplinary working group. I wish I could be on it! I'd even travel to work on this project!

Edited November 8, 2016 by TechWife

cbollin · November 8, 2016

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The majority of students who receive extended time either does so because they have difficulty focusing, a smaller number because they have difficulties executing the act of writing. I do not quite understand how either of these issues would go away in a professional setting.

I don't know about majority of students. I know how it is working for my oldest who is currently junior in college. (double major, ele. engineering, comp sci. math minor, if that helps for context)

She has time and a half on in class tests, but not on long term projects. Those deadlines are the same for her as for others.

It's a whole different ball game from time management for one hour of intense testing than to time management for a project due in a week. Although her current examples are mostly "on campus" situations (such as being co president of professional engineering groups, and coordinating others in group efforts and group projects for classes), I'm seeing the skills are there for how it should go with her current engineering internship and in years to come.

In terms of the act of writing, I know she can type faster than write and her quick writing penmanship is horrible to this day due to disability with that. I know the extended time for in class exam is given for those times that it has to be pencil/pen and paper.

I agree that some self select job aspects will come into the picture for those who need talk to type, or some technology to help. I know she's not going into a field that will be write a news story every day or post update with breaking news. Even if she did need it, there's technology for that stuff in the fields she's going into.

Like I said, I don't about the majority or the "theory" of this stuff. I know my own child's experience. It's a different thing for "produce immediate written results in 60 minutes" and "give me that report and project next week." I don't think she'll be in a job where she has to produce immediate written results in 60 minutes where she would not be able to use word processing or other technology. She is in situations now where she is responsible for meetings and classes in an hour.

And with my middle gal? It's going to be the self select things that techwife mentioned mixed with specific jobs that aren't critical to "must be done at full speed in one hour". Part of career assessment involves knowing where you work best and where you work the worst. Hope some of those insights from one person (versus large groups of studies) helps in some way.

Edited November 8, 2016 by cbollin

Bootsie · November 8, 2016

Sure, I'll do my best. To a large extent, people choose their jobs. While certainly, every job has tasks with varying degrees of difficulty and skill level, there are components of a work environment that can be "controlled for" as a person self-selects what jobs they apply for and where they continue to work. People can seek out jobs with environments that are amenable to them.

Someone who cannot bear loud noises would self select out of a job managing a restaurant, for example. Someone who cannot give presentations gets a job where that is not a requirement, someone who cannot write quickly doesn't get a job that is writing intensive. In an academic environment, writing is often the best way to assess understanding, whereas in a work environment, writing can be a very small part of a job, if it is there at all.

For focus issues, the work environment is very different than the academic environment. People can self-select for amenable working conditions - whether it be the actual workspace itself (private cubicles vs. team cubicles or other aspects like being allowed to wear headphones as one works). There are a lot of things that are already built into a company culture that can help someone or hurt them as they work around their deficits. These things have to be taken into consideration by the employee when they have ADHD. Some people are better at figuring out work arounds for their environments than others and many times things are learned on a trial and error basis. There will be some jobs that someone with ADHD simply cannot do, and that's fine. They need to find one they can do.

It's a bit the same with the anxiety disorder as well - people can self-select to find an environment that they can work in.

In the work world, the human resources department is the department that controls accommodations, and they do that in a large part through careful construction of job descriptions, but also through a great deal of communication. Some people have very casual accommodations and some people have very specific needs.

With regards to the accommodations, personally, I think the disability support office at your university is allowing much more leeway than the law requires. They are allowed to do that - they can set their own guidelines. ADA is the minimum required, so they can certainly allow more accommodations. From my perspective, more reasonable accommodations would include such things as scheduling the students courses and presentations so that they have adequate time to take required anxiety medication or perform needed relaxation techniques prior to their presentation. That is something that can be done in the workplace, too. Many people would just work that into their schedules, just like they work in their lunch breaks.

There may be issues with the way course descriptions and syllabi are being written as far as including language they can't get around. Some universities have a lot overall control as far as dictating a format that must be used by all professors and some (most, maybe?) are very individualized to the department or professor. It would be ideal if the course descriptions and syllabi were reviewed specifically for ADA compliance by someone who knows the law and the academic environment. Then, once those are in compliance with ADA the faculty and the ODS can work together to figure out a set of accommodations that are deemed reasonable for each course while maintaining the academic integrity of the university and the degree. There would still need to be some individualization because I doubt every variable could be controlled for, but having a comprehensive review would go a long way towards making sure 1) The university is ADA compliant 2) The academic integrity of the course, department and degree program is maintained and 3) Gives the students who have the ability to access the course. Success is up to the student.

ETA: I realize that a course syllabus is somewhat organic, but I do think that a well designed periodic review process would be beneficial. If there were a committee that met on a regular basis comprised of professors, someone from the ODS and and ADA attorney present, it would be helpful. Individual professors or student with questions about why something was done the way it was could bring their concerns forward for discussions look for ways to make the particular area of difficulty meet the goals of ADA compliance while maintaining academic integrity, Information gained or given in these meeting can then be put into place right away (if that's appropriate and possible), while others cannot be done at all and still others will be put under a comprehensive review prior to the next time the course is offered.

Keep in mind that I am not a human resources person or an expert on the law. What I have learned is through my experiences walking my son through the process at his university. Maybe I tell him to "buck up and do the work" more often than the university would, I don't know. One of my (secret) goals is to help him be okay with the fact that he's sometimes uncomfortable because sometimes life is just messy and we are uncomfortable.

I wonder what department would have to go look for the funding. At DS' uni ODS reports to the Dean of Students. So maybe the Dean of Students should head up a big interdisciplinary working group. I wish I could be on it! I'd even travel to work on this project!

I am interested in hearing what type of issues might be in a syllabus that could cause problems. IME, Disability Services creates a list of accommodations for individual students that covers all classes regardless of what the syllabus is for each individual class.

maize · November 8, 2016

School is an environment structured in a particular way, people need to have certain characteristics to do well in that environment without accommodation.

The working world has a much, much greater variety of opportunities--and yet college is the gatekeeper for many of them. There are people who perform magnificently in a school structure but then struggle in many professional environments and conversely there are people who struggle in school but thrive in their chosen profession.

School was a particularly difficult structure for me, accommodations would have been helpful. That doesn't mean I could not find a work environment suited to my strengths without accommodation.

Edited November 8, 2016 by maize

maize · November 8, 2016

Frankly, I think secretaries have been a de facto accommodation for many highly successful individuals with poor organizational abilities :)

skimomma · November 8, 2016

I teach engineering classes at a public university. The number of student with accommodations in my classes has skyrocketed over the last five years. Last year 15% of my students had accommodations. For comparison, I only had two students total (less than 1%) with accommodations over my first five years teaching combined. At least half are to have a quiet test-taking environment, which is easy since all of my exams are in a quiet environment. At my school, students are required to initiate the process by meeting with me about their accommodations so I do not approach a student, even though I get notification of who those students are, unless the student approaches me. Many do not. In 90% of cases, I do not see the accommodation being a detriment to future employers. However, the 1.5 time allowed for testing does give me pause in specific situations. There are a few exams in particular classes that I teach where the exam is purely about proving proficiency in the use of a certain tool. Someone who did not take my class at all would be able to do the tasks properly if given unlimited time. The nature of "proficiency" is the ability to do the tasks in a set amount of time thus displaying familiarity with the tool that only comes from practice. The exams are set up so that most students do not completely finish before the time is up. In that case, I do not feel that the accommodation is fair as most, perhaps all, of my students would get a significantly better grade if allowed more time. It is an ongoing conversation in my department.

bettyandbob · November 8, 2016

Frankly, I think secretaries have been a de facto accommodation for many highly successful individuals with poor organizational abilities :)

Absolutely. Back in the day I knew quite a few lawyers who could not function without them. Today, I know very few lawyers who gave administrative assistants. Those that do are sharing one assistant with several other attorneys. In my dh's office attorneys are expected to maintain their own calendar and keep track of due dates (basics that person's with executive function issues would have trouble with). 30 years ago a secretary did a lot of docketing and reminders. I'm sure this change is true in other fields.

MysteryJen · November 8, 2016

School is an environment structured in a particular way, people need to have certain characteristics to do well in that environment without accommodation.

The working world has a much, much greater variety of opportunities--and yet college is the gatekeeper for many of them. There are people who perform magnificently in a school structure but then struggle in many professional environments and conversely there are people who struggle in school but thrive in their chosen profession.

School was a particularly difficult structure for me, accommodations would have been helpful. That doesn't mean I could not find a work environment suited to my strengths without accommodation.

This. My dd2 has 1.5 time allowed, though she has rarely used it, she needs it for standardized multiple choice tests-not a general feature of most work environments. She will definitely self-select out of professions that need high processing speed and tons of reading. So not law school or med school.

Her skills are "soft skills." Hard, consistent worker, skilled at negotiation in a team, well-prepared for presentations, and a good listener.

I worry about school, but not about the workplace. She will be the one working late and coming in early and be prepared for meetings.

Maize's observations about executive secretaries are good. The first thing she said after she got her evals back was that she was going to need a secretary when she starts her own business.

maize · November 8, 2016

It's the beauty of specialization, we get the benefits of everyone's individual strengths.

Dh is way better at staying organized and on task than I am, but he gets very uptight under pressure and struggles to handle the kids when they are emotional or out of sorts.

I'm always calm in an emergency and can deal with the kids even at their most irrational.

Edited November 9, 2016 by maize

TechWife · November 9, 2016

I am interested in hearing what type of issues might be in a syllabus that could cause problems. IME, Disability Services creates a list of accommodations for individual students that covers all classes regardless of what the syllabus is for each individual class.

I think that is a problem. Like some of the examples offered earlier - this could lead to a marketing major never giving a presentation before a group of people and there are countless other examples of ways in which a blanket policy could lead to questioning whether or not a person has actually demonstrated competency in a particular course.

MerryAtHope · November 10, 2016

I think that is a problem. Like some of the examples offered earlier - this could lead to a marketing major never giving a presentation before a group of people and there are countless other examples of ways in which a blanket policy could lead to questioning whether or not a person has actually demonstrated competency in a particular course.

I guess I don't see how a student could take a speech class without giving a speech--or marketing classes without giving presentations. (And, in the example above about anxiety--I can't imagine someone with severe anxiety over giving presentations pursuing marketing--or a marketing firm hiring someone without seeing them give a presentation.)

In my experience, accommodations are about leveling the field so that the student can accomplish the required task--it doesn't eliminate the required task.

TechWife · November 10, 2016

I guess I don't see how a student could take a speech class without giving a speech--or marketing classes without giving presentations. (And, in the example above about anxiety--I can't imagine someone with severe anxiety over giving presentations pursuing marketing--or a marketing firm hiring someone without seeing them give a presentation.)

In my experience, accommodations are about leveling the field so that the student can accomplish the required task--it doesn't eliminate the required task.

This is my viewpoint as well. I think people self select. Your experience is the same as mine - accommodations level the playing field. People indicated in upthread that it hasn't been their experience, though.

Mom22ns · November 10, 2016

I guess I don't see how a student could take a speech class without giving a speech--or marketing classes without giving presentations. (And, in the example above about anxiety--I can't imagine someone with severe anxiety over giving presentations pursuing marketing--or a marketing firm hiring someone without seeing them give a presentation.)

In my experience, accommodations are about leveling the field so that the student can accomplish the required task--it doesn't eliminate the required task.

I agree with this and as the parent of a student who qualifies for (but has chosen not to use) accommodations, I hate to hear that it isn't always the case. In my mind it makes degrees suspect if the required tasks are no longer required. OTOH, if it is just accommodations to make the required tasks feasible for a student with a disability, then they have done their job. If they eliminate a required task or change the grading scale, then it isn't an accommodation it is a modification and no one is well served by that, not the student or the future employer.

regentrude · November 10, 2016

I agree with this and as the parent of a student who qualifies for (but has chosen not to use) accommodations, I hate to hear that it isn't always the case. In my mind it makes degrees suspect if the required tasks are no longer required. OTOH, if it is just accommodations to make the required tasks feasible for a student with a disability, then they have done their job. If they eliminate a required task or change the grading scale, then it isn't an accommodation it is a modification and no one is well served by that, not the student or the future employer.

It is a bit more complicated because "required task" is not a clear cut issue. A task might be required because performing a certain skill is at the essence of what the course is teaching (in a programming course, programming will be a required task; in a public speaking class, public speaking will be required). A task may, however, also be required because it is a suitable way to demonstrate subject mastery, but the task skill itself is not absolutely vital to the essence of the course. To give an example: in my physics class, students are called to the board to solve their homework problems and may be asked to explain steps and narrate the procedure. The reasons for this is that it gives an incentive to do the homework, at the same time deters from simply copying the homework (which would earn points if homework papers were collected), and allowing evaluation of mastery by means of random spot checks (students get called 3-4 times per semester, but at random) without grading 4,000 problems per week. The presentation task itself is not the target skill, the problem solving mastery is. So, while the presentation is a required task, substituting a different way of demonstrating mastery does not detract from the main objective of the course.

I am sure there are similar examples in other classes where "required task" needs a closer look to determine whether accommodations take away from the essence or can be accomplished without watering down the objective.

MerryAtHope · November 10, 2016

This is my viewpoint as well. I think people self select. Your experience is the same as mine - accommodations level the playing field. People indicated in upthread that it hasn't been their experience, though.

I'm still not sure the examples above are applying to these types of situations, but maybe they do (that would be a real disservice to students if so!) The example given was a school allowing students with severe anxiety disorder to give presentations privately or display mastery of content in other ways, when an oral presentation was part of the grade. (I'm thinking like my son's Humanities class where they do a bunch of papers, a presentation, some tests, etc... Mastery of the subject really doesn't depend on speech ability.)

To me that doesn't sound like a class that FOCUSES on presentations (like, "speech" or "marketing.") If a gen-ed speech class was required for graduation for a degree that doesn't depend on speech-making and a student really couldn't give one even privately, then I'd be fine with an accommodation in that case that allowed the student to be exempt from speech. I really, really hope that a student could not actually go through a marketing major or another type of degree where giving presentations is a skill to be mastered with that kind of accommodation though--that just seems like idiocy on the part of a school if any one would allow it--but again, I'm not sure if the accommodation for anxiety examples like regentrude's would be applied in that way.

There are definitely some gray areas as some have mentioned--this just seems so blatantly off though!

Bootsie · November 10, 2016

It is a bit more complicated because "required task" is not a clear cut issue. A task might be required because performing a certain skill is at the essence of what the course is teaching (in a programming course, programming will be a required task; in a public speaking class, public speaking will be required). A task may, however, also be required because it is a suitable way to demonstrate subject mastery, but the task skill itself is not absolutely vital to the essence of the course. To give an example: in my physics class, students are called to the board to solve their homework problems and may be asked to explain steps and narrate the procedure. The reasons for this is that it gives an incentive to do the homework, at the same time deters from simply copying the homework (which would earn points if homework papers were collected), and allowing evaluation of mastery by means of random spot checks (students get called 3-4 times per semester, but at random) without grading 4,000 problems per week. The presentation task itself is not the target skill, the problem solving mastery is. So, while the presentation is a required task, substituting a different way of demonstrating mastery does not detract from the main objective of the course.

I am sure there are similar examples in other classes where "required task" needs a closer look to determine whether accommodations take away from the essence or can be accomplished without watering down the objective.

This a great example of how a course task may not be the focus of the course material but can serve pedagogical purposes.

I had a student in a business class who has accommodations that spelling should not be taken into consideration in grading (because spelling is not the skill being assessed). Writing a paper that is professional and in line with what employers are expecting is important, even though it is not the focus of the course material. This leads to a question of whether one students paper is graded by a different standard--or do I simply ignore spelling, no matter how careless and distracting it is, from every student's paper?

Employers, and outside accreditation agencies, want business professors to ensure that students can do this. Our job, for example, is not simply to make sure that someone can demonstrate certain facts about accounting; our job is to see that students can apply this knowledge in a professional environment. Speaking skills, writing skills, spelling skills, accounting knowledge, etc. are not each separate items covered in different classes.

I know I have changed some of the requirements in my courses in recent years because of the increase in students with accommodations that I have seen. I teach one class in particular in which pop quizzes are extremely helpful. Pop quizzes improve attendance and class preparation. I taught at one school where they were helpful in just having students bring paper and pencil to class! I have not been able to figure out how to have pop quizzes when I have some students who have

MerryAtHope · November 10, 2016

I know I have changed some of the requirements in my courses in recent years because of the increase in students with accommodations that I have seen. I teach one class in particular in which pop quizzes are extremely helpful. Pop quizzes improve attendance and class preparation. I taught at one school where they were helpful in just having students bring paper and pencil to class! I have not been able to figure out how to have pop quizzes when I have some students who have

Looks like the end of your post got cut off, but I'm curious what has stopped you from having them. (Not pop quizzes, but my son's stats course has a quiz every class period, and I imagine kids don't want to skip too many of those). I also remember a few classes in college where we could only have three absences or we'd flunk the class.

regentrude · November 10, 2016

Looks like the end of your post got cut off, but I'm curious what has stopped you from having them.

I would imagine it is the number of students who have accommodations for extra time on tests and quizzes. It is virtually impossible to provide this accommodation for a select few on a quiz that is given in class - how is that supposed to work? Collect all other papers and let the accommodated people work for extra minutes while everybody sits waiting? That would not only cause anger but also violate their privacy. Plus, some have accommodation for distraction free environment. Not possible to provide in class.

@jdahlquist: the only solution I have found was to give those students the opportunity to take their quiz online and simply not hand in a paper in class.

Bootsie · November 10, 2016

Looks like the end of your post got cut off, but I'm curious what has stopped you from having them. (Not pop quizzes, but my son's stats course has a quiz every class period, and I imagine kids don't want to skip too many of those). I also remember a few classes in college where we could only have three absences or we'd flunk the class

In a class I have different students with the following accommodations: 1 1/2 time, double time, private room, use of a computer rather than handwriting answers, use of a dictionary, frequent breaks taken during class, frequent absences without penalty.

If I am going to give a 10 minute quiz, I have some students who get 15 minutes and some who get 20 minutes. Do the other students sit and wait for these students to finish? How can I practically send a student to a private room for the quiz? How can I have one student using a computer?

On top of all of that I have to maintain confidentiality with regards to accommodations. So one student cannot see that another student gets extended time. In addition, I do not know the reasons for the accommodations and cannot ask. So, if a student with "frequent absences" accommodations misses class because they went to see their boyfriend play soccer (and posted a picture of facebook), I can't ask for documentation of a medical reason for missing the quiz--yes I have had that happen.

Some of these accommodations are problematic to handle during a long exam, but they become even more problematic if they are occurring for short, frequent assessments.

Bootsie · November 11, 2016

I would imagine it is the number of students who have accommodations for extra time on tests and quizzes. It is virtually impossible to provide this accommodation for a select few on a quiz that is given in class - how is that supposed to work? Collect all other papers and let the accommodated people work for extra minutes while everybody sits waiting? That would not only cause anger but also violate their privacy. Plus, some have accommodation for distraction free environment. Not possible to provide in class.

@jdahlquist: the only solution I have found was to give those students the opportunity to take their quiz online and simply not hand in a paper in class.

I am curious as to how it has well it has worked to have those student take an online quiz. It seems like it would be difficult to make sure that those students do not have access to additional material or additional time to prepare for the quiz.

bettyandbob · November 11, 2016

I would imagine it is the number of students who have accommodations for extra time on tests and quizzes. It is virtually impossible to provide this accommodation for a select few on a quiz that is given in class - how is that supposed to work? Collect all other papers and let the accommodated people work for extra minutes while everybody sits waiting? That would not only cause anger but also violate their privacy. Plus, some have accommodation for distraction free environment. Not possible to provide in class.

@jdahlquist: the only solution I have found was to give those students the opportunity to take their quiz online and simply not hand in a paper in class.

I don't think there is any guarantee of total privacy. The professor may not tell the class a student has a disability, but there is no requirement that the accommodation be disguised. When I was in college I worked as a TA in chem labs. When a quiz was given a during lab I was told if student requested more time when I collected quizzes I was to let him have the time. He didn't request the time (he was gone before time was up as o no issue). When my ds was in high school his accommodations included having a word processor for anything completed in class. Everyone knew my ds was the only person who used the computer for in class essays. My ds didn't care. I'm sure someone else might have wanted to type essays. So what. My TA experience was over 30 years ago at a very selective school. Students have been getting accommodations a while. Classmates have been around students getting accommodations all that time. Today, it would be unusual for someone to have gotten to college and not have been in class with someone receiving accommodations. Most likely if extended time or other accommodation is offered to one student other students have already seen that.

Extended time is easy if you give a quiz at the end of class. However, if not, I would think you could come up with some creative solutions. If you aren't planning on going over answers immediately after the quiz, then tell student to sit in the back and be prepared to give notes for whatever he missed after the quiz. Or at the time of quizzes have him go to the department's offices and check out the quiz from an administrator who knows how much time he is allotted. He can come back to class when done, again you will need to give him notes etc if he misses anything. If the quiz is at the very beginning of class, arrange for the student to come early enough that he gets the extra time .

You may not announce why the student does the things, but there is no requirement to make his use of accommodation so private that no one would see that student doing something different.

ETA this leads to an issue brought up in another thread. Some students aren't willing to admit they need accommodation and don't want anyone to see that. Therefore they don't use them. I know a young person who is 3 credits short of a degree because the medication she started taking to control bipolar disorder strongly affected her learning a foreign language (this is a known side effect). She managed to finish a semester of the language with a good grade before taking any meds. after diagnosis she finished all other degree requirements. She attempted the second semester of the language a few times and refused to visit disability services to get help. The foreign language was a gen ed credit requirement not pertinent to her degree. I hope the school can work with her to finish when she is ready.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Diana P.

regentrude · November 11, 2016

I am curious as to how it has well it has worked to have those student take an online quiz. It seems like it would be difficult to make sure that those students do not have access to additional material or additional time to prepare for the quiz.

I have two live sections and one online section, and the students in the online section all take their weekly quiz online. They have a 24 hour time period to complete it, and yes, there is no way to prevent them from using notes or working together. So one would think they would all get full points - but they don't. I design different questions; I do not give questions that simply recall facts they could look up in the text, but questions where they have to think. Even though they have all that time and resources, average scores are not different from those of the students who take the 5 minute in class quiz in the in seat lectures. This indicates to me that many of the students do not really find it worth to make the effort to consult materials/people to ensure their answers are correct.

Bootsie · November 11, 2016

I don't think there is any guarantee of total privacy. The professor may not tell the class a student has a disability, but there is no requirement that the accommodation be disguised. When I was in college I worked as a TA in chem labs. When a quiz was given a during lab I was told if student requested more time when I collected quizzes I was to let him have the time. He didn't request the time (he was gone before time was up as o no issue). When my ds was in high school his accommodations included having a word processor for anything completed in class. Everyone knew my ds was the only person who used the computer for in class essays. My ds didn't care. I'm sure someone else might have wanted to type essays. So what. My TA experience was over 30 years ago at a very selective school. Students have been getting accommodations a while. Classmates have been around students getting accommodations all that time. Today, it would be unusual for someone to have gotten to college and not have been in class with someone receiving accommodations. Most likely if extended time or other accommodation is offered to one student other students have already seen that.

Extended time is easy if you give a quiz at the end of class. However, if not, I would think you could come up with some creative solutions. If you aren't planning on going over answers immediately after the quiz, then tell student to sit in the back and be prepared to give notes for whatever he missed after the quiz. Or at the time of quizzes have him go to the department's offices and check out the quiz from an administrator who knows how much time he is allotted. He can come back to class when done, again you will need to give him notes etc if he misses anything. If the quiz is at the very beginning of class, arrange for the student to come early enough that he gets the extra time .

You may not announce why the student does the things, but there is no requirement to make his use of accommodation so private that no one would see that student doing something different.

ETA this leads to an issue brought up in another thread. Some students aren't willing to admit they need accommodation and don't want anyone to see that. Therefore they don't use them. I know a young person who is 3 credits short of a degree because the medication she started taking to control bipolar disorder strongly affected her learning a foreign language (this is a known side effect). She managed to finish a semester of the language with a good grade before taking any meds. after diagnosis she finished all other degree requirements. She attempted the second semester of the language a few times and refused to visit disability services to get help. The foreign language was a gen ed credit requirement not pertinent to her degree. I hope the school can work with her to finish when she is ready.

I have found that it is much more difficult to make these types of accommodations in a university setting than in a high school setting. Almost every time a student has extended time they also have "free from auditory or visual distractions"--I can't be lecturing while they complete a quiz--I have even had some whos disability accommodations say that they should be seated where they do not see when other students turn in quizzes or exams.

I teach in a different building from where the departmental office is located--having a student go to the departmental office is impractical in a situation like this. The student would miss the majority of the class time. At my current school, I can NOT have an administrator proctor a quiz or exam; it is against the college policy. I cannot arrange for the student to come early to take the quiz--the student may have another class; I have another class in another building and I can not get there early enough, or there is another class meeting in the room taught by another professor. In addition, I can NOT ensure a quiet environment as other students are coming into the classroom.

My colleagues and I have struggled with coming up with a good solution that is fair to everyone and does not become an administrative nightmare. Where I previously taught, I would have close to 1000 students, (with 5% having accommodations), shared an office with 2 other professors, and did not have access to a private room within the department to give makeup quizzes or exams because the university was busting at the seams.

Bootsie · November 11, 2016

I have two live sections and one online section, and the students in the online section all take their weekly quiz online. They have a 24 hour time period to complete it, and yes, there is no way to prevent them from using notes or working together. So one would think they would all get full points - but they don't. I design different questions; I do not give questions that simply recall facts they could look up in the text, but questions where they have to think. Even though they have all that time and resources, average scores are not different from those of the students who take the 5 minute in class quiz in the in seat lectures. This indicates to me that many of the students do not really find it worth to make the effort to consult materials/people to ensure their answers are correct.

I can see how if you have an online section taking their quiz online then you have a control group to use to determine that the quiz is equivalent to what was given in class.

My experience within online work has been much the same as yours in that students don't do better and don't take the time to consult the things they could. That has been much more the case at one school that I have taught at than at another, however.

bettyandbob · November 11, 2016

I have found that it is much more difficult to make these types of accommodations in a university setting than in a high school setting. Almost every time a student has extended time they also have "free from auditory or visual distractions"--I can't be lecturing while they complete a quiz--I have even had some whos disability accommodations say that they should be seated where they do not see when other students turn in quizzes or exams.

I teach in a different building from where the departmental office is located--having a student go to the departmental office is impractical in a situation like this. The student would miss the majority of the class time. At my current school, I can NOT have an administrator proctor a quiz or exam; it is against the college policy. I cannot arrange for the student to come early to take the quiz--the student may have another class; I have another class in another building and I can not get there early enough, or there is another class meeting in the room taught by another professor. In addition, I can NOT ensure a quiet environment as other students are coming into the classroom.

My colleagues and I have struggled with coming up with a good solution that is fair to everyone and does not become an administrative nightmare. Where I previously taught, I would have close to 1000 students, (with 5% having accommodations), shared an office with 2 other professors, and did not have access to a private room within the department to give makeup quizzes or exams because the university was busting at the seams.

Don't have time to really respond. But if you only look for obstacles that will be all you see.

Every Dept throughout a university has to deal with the same issues. Coordinate. Sometimes a chem class is taught in the history building. Do they have department offices and administrators who can check out tests. If you are across campus but next to the library perhaps the library can offer solutions. Speak to disability services and get them to help coordinate solutions across departments and buildings. Such work may take some time up front, but will be easy in the long run.

regentrude · November 11, 2016

Extended time is easy if you give a quiz at the end of class. However, if not, I would think you could come up with some creative solutions. If you aren't planning on going over answers immediately after the quiz, then tell student to sit in the back and be prepared to give notes for whatever he missed after the quiz. Or at the time of quizzes have him go to the department's offices and check out the quiz from an administrator who knows how much time he is allotted. He can come back to class when done, again you will need to give him notes etc if he misses anything. If the quiz is at the very beginning of class, arrange for the student to come early enough that he gets the extra time .

This may be feasible in a small class and when quizzes are announced.

In a class of 150 students and with quizzes that are given unannounced this is simply not possible.

For pedagogical reasons it is essential to give the answers to the questions immediately after the quiz. The next class will be on a different topic, and discussing the questions from the previous topic won't work since the students don't remember what the questions were, what they answered (quiz is not back from the grader) and don't care because it's the "old" topic. Prompt immediate feedback is the only way to use a quiz as a learning opportunity,

Edited November 11, 2016 by regentrude

Bootsie · November 11, 2016

Don't have time to really respond. But if you only look for obstacles that will be all you see.

Every Dept throughout a university has to deal with the same issues. Coordinate. Sometimes a chem class is taught in the history building. Do they have department offices and administrators who can check out tests. If you are across campus but next to the library perhaps the library can offer solutions. Speak to disability services and get them to help coordinate solutions across departments and buildings. Such work may take some time up front, but will be easy in the long run.

My response comes not from looking for obstacles but from all of the obstacles my colleagues and I have faced in trying to develop solutions to these issues. The university where I teach does NOT allow departmental offices, administrators, or the library to check out tests. There are a number of reasons for this; quiz and test security is just one. The individuals in those offices have their own jobs to do and can't stop their duties to proctor a quiz. Complications multiply when you are teaching night classes or teaching on auxiliary campuses. (I have stayed until 1:00am for a student who had double time on a final exam in a night class)

The faculty senate has been pushing for a testing center run by disabilities services to help with this, but staffing and space issues are an issue; professors who have taught at schools who have had these types of centers say other issues start coming up with that type of system. Professors I know are struggling to come up with solutions that are fair for everyone. As often happens, one group is making policy decisions without a good understanding of the classroom situation or pedagogy and without the authority to devote space resources and administrative resources to implement those policies. The issue is not just limited to providing appropriate accommodations for disabilities; issues come up with university excused absences (athletes, debate team, etc.), students who are out ill, and students with work-related duties. It is just easier to deal with all of these for a few large exams a semester rather than more frequent quizzes--especially pop quizzes.

regentrude · November 12, 2016

The faculty senate has been pushing for a testing center run by disabilities services to help with this, but staffing and space issues are an issue; professors who have taught at schools who have had these types of centers say other issues start coming up with that type of system. Professors I know are struggling to come up with solutions that are fair for everyone. As often happens, one group is making policy decisions without a good understanding of the classroom situation or pedagogy and without the authority to devote space resources and administrative resources to implement those policies. The issue is not just limited to providing appropriate accommodations for disabilities; issues come up with university excused absences (athletes, debate team, etc.), students who are out ill, and students with work-related duties. It is just easier to deal with all of these for a few large exams a semester rather than more frequent quizzes--especially pop quizzes.

We do have a testing center on campus, and it works extremely well. I have 20+ students in my class who require accommodations, mostly time and half or double time, but I also had students who needed a scribe because they were physically unable to hold a writing instrument or type, a student who is legally blind, and probably more that I forget. A central testing center is the best solution for our campus, and I am very please with how well that runs. What other issues did your colleagues from other schools report?

MerryAtHope · November 12, 2016

Extended time is easy if you give a quiz at the end of class.

This may be feasible in a small class and when quizzes are announced.

In a class of 150 students and with quizzes that are given unannounced this is simply not possible.

For pedagogical reasons it is essential to give the answers to the questions immediately after the quiz. The next class will be on a different topic, and discussing the questions from the previous topic won't work since the students don't remember what the questions were, what they answered (quiz is not back from the grader) and don't care because it's the "old" topic. Prompt immediate feedback is the only way to use a quiz as a learning opportunity,

Lots of issues I hadn't thought of. In my son's Statistics class that does daily quizzes, students can come early and start the quiz as soon as they arrive, so they can get extra time that way. (Not sure what they'd do if someone required quiet or couldn't come early due to a class before, etc...)

Bootsie · November 13, 2016

We do have a testing center on campus, and it works extremely well. I have 20+ students in my class who require accommodations, mostly time and half or double time, but I also had students who needed a scribe because they were physically unable to hold a writing instrument or type, a student who is legally blind, and probably more that I forget. A central testing center is the best solution for our campus, and I am very please with how well that runs. What other issues did your colleagues from other schools report?

Many of the complaints I have heard about centralized testing centers seem to be at schools where this decision was made but enough resources were not devoted to running a successful center. Some of the issues I have heard are:

concerns that proctoring standards were not enforced and cheating was occurring that was out of the hands of the faculty to deal with
questions regarding the qualifications of a reader when a student had accommodations for a reader (did the reader know technical words or was the reader providing subtle hints as to the answers)
problems with logistics--lead time to schedule exams, processing time of exams, delivery and pick up of exams.
problems with timing of exams compared to when the exam was given in the classroom (sometimes students could not schedule tests in center until after tests were returned to some students)
issues of when certain lab or classroom materials were needed for exams that were not easily transportable to central testing
universities that required that ALL accommodations go through the testing center and only for those with previously documented disabilities (this prevented a professor from giving extra time or any other assistance to a student who broke the hand he wrote with the night before an exam)
inability of the testing center to accommodate night students
students experienced a high degree of stress and hassle getting exams scheduled with the testing center because there were not enough testing rooms and an unnecessarily cumbersome process
the center works well for exams that are planned far in advance but do not work well for smaller quizzes in which the professor may not know far in advance what particular topic will be covered and is making quizzes up more "on the spot"
no pop quizzes can be given

It seems as if most of those items could be resolved with enough resources, but the resources can be significant. If a campus has 10,000 students and 5% have accommodations, that is 500 students. If each of those students takes 5 classes a semester; that is 2500 final exams to be proctored by the testing center (with 1 1/2 time, that is 3.75 hours each--in a week of final exams the testing center could, on average, have two students per seat each day, so to have them take all tests in one week would mean they would need approximately 250 seats in the testing center.)

Another issue that has been raised is that we have a number of students with wording like "Sally requires 1 1/2 time and preferential seating in the classroom so that she is free from auditory and visual disturbances but where she can hear the proctor's instructions, questions other students ask during the exam, and the proctor's answer to those questions"--that cannot be accomplished with a separate testing center.

regentrude · November 13, 2016

Many of the complaints I have heard about centralized testing centers seem to be at schools where this decision was made but enough resources were not devoted to running a successful center. Some of the issues I have heard are:

concerns that proctoring standards were not enforced and cheating was occurring that was out of the hands of the faculty to deal with

questions regarding the qualifications of a reader when a student had accommodations for a reader (did the reader know technical words or was the reader providing subtle hints as to the answers)

problems with logistics--lead time to schedule exams, processing time of exams, delivery and pick up of exams.

problems with timing of exams compared to when the exam was given in the classroom (sometimes students could not schedule tests in center until after tests were returned to some students)

issues of when certain lab or classroom materials were needed for exams that were not easily transportable to central testing

universities that required that ALL accommodations go through the testing center and only for those with previously documented disabilities (this prevented a professor from giving extra time or any other assistance to a student who broke the hand he wrote with the night before an exam)

inability of the testing center to accommodate night students

students experienced a high degree of stress and hassle getting exams scheduled with the testing center because there were not enough testing rooms and an unnecessarily cumbersome process

the center works well for exams that are planned far in advance but do not work well for smaller quizzes in which the professor may not know far in advance what particular topic will be covered and is making quizzes up more "on the spot"

no pop quizzes can be given

It seems as if most of those items could be resolved with enough resources, but the resources can be significant. If a campus has 10,000 students and 5% have accommodations, that is 500 students. If each of those students takes 5 classes a semester; that is 2500 final exams to be proctored by the testing center (with 1 1/2 time, that is 3.75 hours each--in a week of final exams the testing center could, on average, have two students per seat each day, so to have them take all tests in one week would mean they would need approximately 250 seats in the testing center.)

Oh, that's a long list of grievances. We have no issues with the quality of the proctoring, and almost all of our students are traditional students and not night students. For common evening exams, our testing center handles the extra time by having student start early and finish simultaneously with the in class exam. Signup is seven days in advance through an electronic reservation system where both student and faculty member have to submit a request. In my classes combined, I teach 1200 students per year and have never been unable to get a eat at the testing center.

Resources are stretched tight, especially in finals week, but we have not nearly as many seats as you projected. We have about 10k students, but I don't think we have more than 30-40 testing seats. I can ask what the precise number is.

But yes, this does not work for pop quizzes.

Another issue that has been raised is that we have a number of students with wording like "Sally requires 1 1/2 time and preferential seating in the classroom so that she is free from auditory and visual disturbances but where she can hear the proctor's instructions, questions other students ask during the exam, and the proctor's answer to those questions"--that cannot be accomplished with a separate testing center.

The problem of student questions during the exam is an issue for us in multi section courses where the same exam is given simultaneously to students in seven different locations. The solution is to construct and word the exam carefully and avoid ambiguity (something that takes a great deal of experience and detail oriented thinking) so that the answer to almost all student question is "Read the problem statement". In the very rare case that there is an actual ambiguity or error, all rooms have to be notified, including the testing center. This can be done.

Edited November 13, 2016 by regentrude

Bootsie · November 13, 2016

Oh, that's a long list of grievances. We have no issues with the quality of the proctoring, and almost all of our students are traditional students and not night students. For common evening exams, our testing center handles the extra time by having student start early and finish simultaneously with the in class exam. Signup is seven days in advance through an electronic reservation system where both student and faculty member have to submit a request. In my classes combined, I teach 1200 students per year and have never been unable to get a eat at the testing center.

Resources are stretched tight, especially in finals week, but we have not nearly as many seats as you projected. We have about 10k students, but I don't think we have more than 30-40 testing seats. I can ask what the precise number is.

But yes, this does not work for pop quizzes.

The problem of student questions during the exam is an issue for us in multi section courses where the same exam is given simultaneously to students in seven different locations. The solution is to construct and word the exam carefully and avoid ambiguity (something that takes a great deal of experience and detail oriented thinking) so that the answer to almost all student question is "Read the problem statement". In the very rare case that there is an actual ambiguity or error, all rooms have to be notified, including the testing center. This can be done.

It sounds as if your university has an excellently run testing center that could serve as a model for other schools. Can you tell me:

Do students and faculty make the reservation in the system separately or does one initiate the other? What happens if a student fails to make a request in the signup period?

Does the testing center also handle exams that are missed for athletic and other excused university absences? What about exams missed due to illness?

I agree that careful exam question construction minimizes legitimate questions about the exam. At a previous school, a group of professors strongly suspected there was a group of students who were using the "ask a question" as a way to cheat on multiple choice exams. They could provide information to others in the class about which question was which number. It also was a way for them to communicate which version of the exam they had. I am very careful about exam construction and have gone to a "new questions during the exam" policy--I tell them if there is something that they have to assume to answer the question, clearly write their assumptions on the test paper and it will be handled after the test.

regentrude · November 13, 2016

It sounds as if your university has an excellently run testing center that could serve as a model for other schools. Can you tell me:

Do students and faculty make the reservation in the system separately or does one initiate the other? What happens if a student fails to make a request in the signup period?

Does the testing center also handle exams that are missed for athletic and other excused university absences? What about exams missed due to illness?

Our testing center is operated as a separate entity from the disability office. It handles ALL testing needs, accommodation for disabilities as well as makeups grated to students for a variety of reasons (athletic events, illness, etc). The testing center does not require a justification why the student is testing there.

Both student and faculty member are required to fill out separate reservation forms through the electronic system. When the first of the two is received, the person submitting receives a confirmation, and the other party is cc-ed on the email. A permanent reservation is made when both forms have been submitted.

It is required to make reservations 7 days before the exam. Sometimes there are students who do not get their at together; our testing center staff is very proactive and plans for this (if I have 22 students who need testing for test 1, they will plan for 22 seats on test 2, and give grace to students who are so dysfunctional that they cannot adhere to the rules. Sometimes a reservation may be necessary on short notice due to special circumstances; the testing center staff is very accommodating and will work with us if at all possible.

kiana · November 13, 2016

I agree that careful exam question construction minimizes legitimate questions about the exam. At a previous school, a group of professors strongly suspected there was a group of students who were using the "ask a question" as a way to cheat on multiple choice exams. They could provide information to others in the class about which question was which number. It also was a way for them to communicate which version of the exam they had. I am very careful about exam construction and have gone to a "new questions during the exam" policy--I tell them if there is something that they have to assume to answer the question, clearly write their assumptions on the test paper and it will be handled after the test.

This is what I have done when I have had to give multi-section common exams. It results in me occasionally having to throw out a problem that I made a typo in, but it resolves enough other issues that I'm happy with it.

The Well-Trained Mind Extended Guide

College accommodations, do they ever stop?

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