Topic Replay: Writing without a purchased program

[Another Lynn]

I know we've had threads on this before, but thought it might be a good time to "play it again."

 

If you've had a year of writing without a purchased curriculum or program share more about what you did and how it went.  You don't have to answer each question, I just added them for ideas.

 

How did you structure your dc's writing work?  (I.e. a month of paragraphs, 2 months of reports, 2 months of compare/contrast, etc. or other....)

 

Was it difficult coming up with writing assignments or topics?  Did you find a resource that helped?

 

What kinds of assignments or topics did you give?

 

Did you have a hard time holding yourself accountable and getting it done?  What were obstacles to getting it done and how did you overcome them?

 

At the end of the year, what was positive (and what was negative) about not using a program?

 

Anything else you want to share about your experience?

[regentrude]

What age are you thinking of?

I homeschooled since 5th/6th grade and never used a writing program.

 

We did not use any structure. Writing was incorporated into all subjects. My kids wrote about history, about science, about books, with plenty of creative writing on the side. They chose their own assignments. I did some direct instruction and practice for the standardized test essay

As for getting it done: we do few and longer writing assignments. I have to coax DS a bit more, but it's not different than other school work.

Both turned out to be strong writers; DD's outstanding writing ability was the subject of comments from various college profs when she was in 11th grade. So I guess it worked out fine. Maybe I'm just lucky and did not screw up their natural ability - who knows.

Edited June 7, 2016 by regentrude

[Another Lynn]

For next year, I'm thinking about my 5th/6th grader.  

 

I love that they chose their own assignments.  From there, did they need you to help find sources, narrow or expand the topic, help choose sub-topics?  

[regentrude]

For next year, I'm thinking about my 5th/6th grader.  

 

I love that they chose their own assignments.  From there, did they need you to help find sources, narrow or expand the topic, help choose sub-topics?  

 

Yes.

I provided them with materials for history and science, so they had sources, and itw as clear that this was what they had to use. We did not do research papers where they had to find their own sources until a bit later.

We talked about the papers, sometimes I needed to help focus the topic. Sometimes they did splendidly on their own.

I found that both my kids learned best from their own mistakes and that just letting them try out things and see what worked led them to become better writers. That does not work for all students.

 

I am very glad I let them pick their own topics. I find that they are much more engaged writing about something they are interested in - so why make them write about topics they don't care about? They'll get plenty of that later; first they should practice the writing process on something they enjoy. I'd typically say things like "I need you to write a literature paper on Of Mice and men; think about a topic you want to write about" or "What do you want to write your history paper on?" I'd require that they write, but not what. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by regentrude

[hollyhock]

How did you structure your dc's writing work?

 

I based my requirements on SWB's middle grades writing lecture, so we did two summaries/written narrations, two outlines and one lit. essay per week.

 

Was it difficult coming up with writing assignments or topics?  Did you find a resource that helped?

 

I didn't find it difficult at all. We just used our history lesson or science lesson or the book the kid was currently reading. In a jam, I used Pathway or Nature readers.

 

What kinds of assignments or topics did you give?

 

I don't think this really applies because we were just narrating and outlining. So it was mostly just telling back or summarizing what they'd read. For the lit. essays, I used the questions from WTM (also in the audio lecture) and sometimes thought up my own. The only really open-ended topics we did were occasionally for history, when I asked them to research something of interest and they would write a report about it. So it would be something like "Tell me about the Spanish Armada" or "Who was Winston Churchill?" I didn't so much this year, but I have other years (and would like to again) rotated the type of assignment between narration, description and explanation, so they are writing a variety of different styles.

 

Did you have a hard time holding yourself accountable and getting it done?  What were obstacles to getting it done and how did you overcome them?

 

No, because my kids knew what they were expected to do and it was done independently for the most part. If they had to write a summary one day, they would decide what to write from. If it was a history day, they could write from history. If they didn't want to do that, they could choose something else. 

 

At the end of the year, what was positive (and what was negative) about not using a program?

 

Positives: writing is integrated into other subjects so it sort of eliminated it as a separate subject. There was no lack of things to write about because they were always writing about content from other subjects. No one dreads writing or has writer's block or any of those types of things.

 

On the negative side, they aren't learning to write essays or research papers in 6th grade, they aren't doing any creative writing at all. To me, those things aren't negatives but to others they might be. 

 

Anything else you want to share about your experience?

 

I've done writing this way in the middle grades with two kids now and I like how it's gone so I have another one starting it this fall. It's a slow and steady method and I won't really be able to say with confidence that it's the bees knees until I graduate a kid who can write essays and research papers decently, but we're getting there, so I plan on continuing.

[FO4UR]

:lurk5:

 

Great topic!

[Carol in Cal.]

If you want to learn how to do this, get "The Writers' Jungle" which is essentially a 'teach the teacher' approach to teaching writing.

Also, the logic stage description of historical and literary writing in WTM is immensely helpful.

So is "Teach Like Your Hair is On Fire" by Rafe Esquith, who teaches fifth graders.

[FO4UR]

I plunked out the cash for BW and was not impressed. jmho.

 

 

I've studied CM for a few years though, so I was hoping for more...more of something...but I was just very much disappointed that I wasted $ on it.  I had heard such rave reviews, but I think those reviews must come from people who haven't read CM.

 

CM's books are free online.

 

Another Lynn, I think you've already read CM irc. I think spreading writing out through the content subjects might be the ticket.

 

 

[J-rap]

We spent some years writing without an actual curriculum, especially as the kids got a little older.  I loved it.  It felt so freeing for me!  But part of that was because I love writing too, and had ideas of my own.  When we did that, we usually synched it with either history or literature.  There were always so many topics to write about!  It really wasn't difficult at all to come up with ideas, and I felt comfortable with my own writing level to do it that way.

[sbgrace]

I am using a program right now, but we wrote without a program for over a year 5th/6th. I did self educate by reading lots of books and web pages about writing.

 

I organized our writing using paragraph structures--cause/effect, compare/contrast, descriptive, narrative, informative and/or background information, examples, definition, process/how, divide or classify, argue/persuade. We would focus on one paragraph type at a time.

 

I would find real life examples of pieces with the select type of paragraph(s), mostly in magazine articles (Cricket and Scholastic primarily) to analyze. We would outline the article, identify the main idea/thesis, and talk about the over-all or primary piece structure if there was one. Some articles would be primarily cause/effect, narrative/descriptive, or compare/contrast for example. I didn't find many good examples of writing to analyze outside of magazines and newspapers, though I could have tried harder. I think I'll try to include academic type writing when/if we do this again.

 

All/most articles would employ more than one paragraph technique so we would also talk about the the types of paragraphs used using the above categories and why the author used them to support their main idea. We never came across pieces or paragraphs that didn't fall into those categories, so I still like them. In fact, I just pulled them off a list we still had up on our board, and I plan to revisit them in the future.

 

We also looked at the way the author would start begin and end the article, and whether we felt the open and closes were effective. Sometimes, depending on the article we focused on other things like transitions between paragraphs, word choices, or paragraph type specific things to note. I can see the influence of the study we did in their writing. They have a journalist/reader engagement focused type style to their writing.

 

I would then have my kids write a single paragraph using the type of paragraph structure we were studying. We edited together, which sometimes turned into a sort of co-write with me trying to think aloud and together with the child. Most of the time, I let them write about their own interests. One did a lot of history, sports, and current event type topics. Sometimes he would write about something that caught is attention in the magazines we had. The other wrote an awful lot of paragraphs about MineCraft for most of 5th grade, his interest at the time. He had more variety in 6th.

 

When we hit a topic, often in history, that fit a particular paragraph type well, I did assign topics as well regardless of the type of paragraph we were focusing on. My kids like history, so this wasn't a negative for them. If it had been, I probably would have stayed with their own writing topics and just discussed the history orally because I wanted it to be engaging/positive.

 

I didn't have a set time frame for focusing on a type. I did stick with a paragraph type long enough that I felt good about their ability to write in that form, then I went to the next paragraph type. We cycled through all of them more than once.

 

I didn't have an issue with accountability because I had a routine/goal. My goal was to analyze at least one article a week and write twice a week. This worked here, but it was also my downfall.

 

My kids, especially my spectrum one, decided they would forever more write just one paragraph twice a week for me. One particularly did/does a lot of pleasure (fiction) writing outside of my own assignments, but I couldn't seem to break us out of the pattern of twice a week one paragraph academic/school writing.

 

I also had issues knowing how to move one of mine particularly forward in his writing once he progressed to a certain point. I felt I was doing too much editing with him/he wasn't increasingly self editing. This is still a problem actually, so I think it's probably particular to him rather than my lack of program. That said, it feels secure somehow to have an actual writing program with him to make sure I'm covering my bases in some sort of expert way.  My other is a naturally good writer, and I often found myself having very little feedback for him in the editing phase. As a result, I didn't feel I was really moving him forward either after we'd been through the whole cycle multiple times.

 

Basically, we were in a rut/stagnating, and I didn't know how to move us forward.

 

 

I went to a program to get us out of that rut. I don't regret doing it on my own for a while, but in retrospect I would have went to something else sooner than I did--when I started feeling we were spinning wheels. At this point, I think I'm going to finish out middle school with formal programs, but then I may go back to self created to some extent, using the paragraphs but focusing on writing whole pieces using the paragraphs as tools. Maybe!
 

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by sbgrace

[Another Lynn]

I taught dd mostly without a program. We were very much CM at the time; she just transitioned from oral to written narrations, and then I sat down and showed her how to write an essay and then...she kept writing. She does well in her uni essays, so I guess she didn't miss anything. 

 

Disclaimer: I have a writing background. Winging it is relatively easy for me. 

 

Editing to say that CM style writing is so easy to implement across the curriculum. I truly believe in the value of oral narration as preparation for composition; the transition to written narration, and then to the essay wasn't seamless, but it was close to seamless.

 

I was more CM with my oldest than with any of the others.  We got to a point (around 6th grade?) where he had written narrations down without problem, but I struggled with how go to take him from written narrations to essays.  

 

This last school year I dabbled a bit in Thinking in Threes (with my 12yo and 10yo) and that might be what I go back to if I need a reminder of how to move forward.

 

I wish I could wing it more successfully, but for me, if I veer too far towards winging it, I run the risk that it won't get done.  I've got to know more about what I'm asking him to do, or I won't be able to ask him to do it.   :D   

[Another Lynn]

Yes.

I provided them with materials for history and science, so they had sources, and itw as clear that this was what they had to use. We did not do research papers where they had to find their own sources until a bit later.

We talked about the papers, sometimes I needed to help focus the topic. Sometimes they did splendidly on their own.

I found that both my kids learned best from their own mistakes and that just letting them try out things and see what worked led them to become better writers. That does not work for all students.

 

I am very glad I let them pick their own topics. I find that they are much more engaged writing about something they are interested in - so why make them write about topics they don't care about? They'll get plenty of that later; first they should practice the writing process on something they enjoy. I'd typically say things like "I need you to write a literature paper on Of Mice and men; think about a topic you want to write about" or "What do you want to write your history paper on?" I'd require that they write, but not what. 

 

Thank you for adding this - it's really helpful to me to see examples of how much guidance you gave and how much choice they had.  

[Another Lynn]

How did you structure your dc's writing work?

 

I based my requirements on SWB's middle grades writing lecture, so we did two summaries/written narrations, two outlines and one lit. essay per week.

 

Was it difficult coming up with writing assignments or topics?  Did you find a resource that helped?

 

I didn't find it difficult at all. We just used our history lesson or science lesson or the book the kid was currently reading. In a jam, I used Pathway or Nature readers.

 

What kinds of assignments or topics did you give?

 

I don't think this really applies because we were just narrating and outlining. So it was mostly just telling back or summarizing what they'd read. For the lit. essays, I used the questions from WTM (also in the audio lecture) and sometimes thought up my own. The only really open-ended topics we did were occasionally for history, when I asked them to research something of interest and they would write a report about it. So it would be something like "Tell me about the Spanish Armada" or "Who was Winston Churchill?" I didn't so much this year, but I have other years (and would like to again) rotated the type of assignment between narration, description and explanation, so they are writing a variety of different styles.

 

Did you have a hard time holding yourself accountable and getting it done?  What were obstacles to getting it done and how did you overcome them?

 

No, because my kids knew what they were expected to do and it was done independently for the most part. If they had to write a summary one day, they would decide what to write from. If it was a history day, they could write from history. If they didn't want to do that, they could choose something else. 

 

At the end of the year, what was positive (and what was negative) about not using a program?

 

Positives: writing is integrated into other subjects so it sort of eliminated it as a separate subject. There was no lack of things to write about because they were always writing about content from other subjects. No one dreads writing or has writer's block or any of those types of things.

 

On the negative side, they aren't learning to write essays or research papers in 6th grade, they aren't doing any creative writing at all. To me, those things aren't negatives but to others they might be. 

 

Anything else you want to share about your experience?

 

I've done writing this way in the middle grades with two kids now and I like how it's gone so I have another one starting it this fall. It's a slow and steady method and I won't really be able to say with confidence that it's the bees knees until I graduate a kid who can write essays and research papers decently, but we're getting there, so I plan on continuing.

 

There is a lot to be said for SWB's approach and writing every day.  I like your examples of questions that became more report-like - those are helpful.  

[Another Lynn]

If you want to learn how to do this, get "The Writers' Jungle" which is essentially a 'teach the teacher' approach to teaching writing.

Also, the logic stage description of historical and literary writing in WTM is immensely helpful.

So is "Teach Like Your Hair is On Fire" by Rafe Esquith, who teaches fifth graders.

 

Thanks for these recommendations!  I've had TWJ for years, but haven't pulled it out lately.  I enjoyed it when I read it, but I don't think it impacted what I did in a significant way.  For awhile I have thought maybe I should read her Help for High School to learn how she moves to the next level, but so far, I haven't been willing to spend that much for it.  And, yes, many times the WTM logic stage guidelines have been my fallback.  

[Another Lynn]

:lurk5:

 

Great topic!

Thanks!

 

I plunked out the cash for BW and was not impressed. jmho.

 

 

I've studied CM for a few years though, so I was hoping for more...more of something...but I was just very much disappointed that I wasted $ on it.  I had heard such rave reviews, but I think those reviews must come from people who haven't read CM.

 

CM's books are free online.

 

Another Lynn, I think you've already read CM irc. I think spreading writing out through the content subjects might be the ticket.

 

 

Thank you for your reply.  I've read some CM.  I do think writing across content subjects is what we will do, but I would like to take a step towards something more than narrations - or perhaps my view of narrations is too narrow!   :smash:

[Another Lynn]

We spent some years writing without an actual curriculum, especially as the kids got a little older.  I loved it.  It felt so freeing for me!  But part of that was because I love writing too, and had ideas of my own.  When we did that, we usually synched it with either history or literature.  There were always so many topics to write about!  It really wasn't difficult at all to come up with ideas, and I felt comfortable with my own writing level to do it that way.

 

Thank you for your testimony!  (I'm a bit envious, but glad to hear your experience was positive!)

[Another Lynn]

I am using a program right now, but we wrote without a program for over a year 5th/6th. I did self educate by reading lots of books and web pages about writing.

 

I organized our writing using paragraph structures--cause/effect, compare/contrast, descriptive, narrative, informative and/or background information, examples, definition, process/how, divide or classify, argue/persuade. We would focus on one paragraph type at a time.

 

I would find real life examples of pieces with the select type of paragraph(s), mostly in magazine articles (Cricket and Scholastic primarily) to analyze. We would outline the article, identify the main idea/thesis, and talk about the over-all or primary piece structure if there was one. Some articles would be primarily cause/effect, narrative/descriptive, or compare/contrast for example. I didn't find many good examples of writing to analyze outside of magazines and newspapers, though I could have tried harder. I think I'll try to include academic type writing when/if we do this again.

 

All/most articles would employ more than one paragraph technique so we would also talk about the the types of paragraphs used using the above categories and why the author used them to support their main idea. We never came across pieces or paragraphs that didn't fall into those categories, so I still like them. In fact, I just pulled them off a list we still had up on our board, and I plan to revisit them in the future.

 

We also looked at the way the author would start begin and end the article, and whether we felt the open and closes were effective. Sometimes, depending on the article we focused on other things like transitions between paragraphs, word choices, or paragraph type specific things to note. I can see the influence of the study we did in their writing. They have a journalist/reader engagement focused type style to their writing.

 

I would then have my kids write a single paragraph using the type of paragraph structure we were studying. We edited together, which sometimes turned into a sort of co-write with me trying to think aloud and together with the child. Most of the time, I let them write about their own interests. One did a lot of history, sports, and current event type topics. Sometimes he would write about something that caught is attention in the magazines we had. The other wrote an awful lot of paragraphs about MineCraft for most of 5th grade, his interest at the time. He had more variety in 6th.

 

When we hit a topic, often in history, that fit a particular paragraph type well, I did assign topics as well regardless of the type of paragraph we were focusing on. My kids like history, so this wasn't a negative for them. If it had been, I probably would have stayed with their own writing topics and just discussed the history orally because I wanted it to be engaging/positive.

 

I didn't have a set time frame for focusing on a type. I did stick with a paragraph type long enough that I felt good about their ability to write in that form, then I went to the next paragraph type. We cycled through all of them more than once.

 

I didn't have an issue with accountability because I had a routine/goal. My goal was to analyze at least one article a week and write twice a week. This worked here, but it was also my downfall.

 

My kids, especially my spectrum one, decided they would forever more write just one paragraph twice a week for me. One particularly did/does a lot of pleasure (fiction) writing outside of my own assignments, but I couldn't seem to break us out of the pattern of twice a week one paragraph academic/school writing.

 

I also had issues knowing how to move one of mine particularly forward in his writing once he progressed to a certain point. I felt I was doing too much editing with him/he wasn't increasingly self editing. This is still a problem actually, so I think it's probably particular to him rather than my lack of program. That said, it feels secure somehow to have an actual writing program with him to make sure I'm covering my bases in some sort of expert way.  My other is a naturally good writer, and I often found myself having very little feedback for him in the editing phase. As a result, I didn't feel I was really moving him forward either after we'd been through the whole cycle multiple times.

 

Basically, we were in a rut/stagnating, and I didn't know how to move us forward.

 

 

I went to a program to get us out of that rut. I don't regret doing it on my own for a while, but in retrospect I would have went to something else sooner than I did--when I started feeling we were spinning wheels. At this point, I think I'm going to finish out middle school with formal programs, but then I may go back to self created to some extent, using the paragraphs but focusing on writing whole pieces using the paragraphs as tools. Maybe!

 

 

SBGrace, thank you for taking the time to share your experience.  I like the idea of analyzing magazine articles.  I'll have to see if our library has those.  I think seeing examples of well written pieces could really help, but it's so hard to find good examples of "school" writing.  Thank you so much for sharing what went well and where you hit a wall.  So helpful!

[Julie of KY]

While it sounds great to naturally teach writing across the curriculum, it doesn't work well in all cases. One of my kids, I can teach this way, but my (smart) kids with learning disabilities need a lot of guidance and hand-holding and it is more structure than I can naturally provide.

 

Try it out, keep what works, and find some other way to teach the parts that are not working.

[JennW in SoCal]

I know we've had threads on this before, but thought it might be a good time to "play it again."

 

If you've had a year of writing without a purchased curriculum or program share more about what you did and how it went.  You don't have to answer each question, I just added them for ideas.

 

 

I've got two college graduates who were homeschooled all the way without a single writing program. 

 

My biggest influence came from an article of SWB's in which she lamented the poor writing produced by students in her college classes and stated her ideas on how to better teach writing k-12. The article apparently is no longer posted her WTM site (I just looked for it) but the essence of it can be found in her lectures and no doubt in the curricula she has since developed.  I did not follow the WTM writing suggestions as I had little boys who in no uncertain terms were NOT ready for that amount of writing in the early grades. By high school, though, I used the rhetoric section of the WTM as a guide.  I also loved the Well Educated Mind for tackling different genres of literature, and used the questions in there for more formal discussions and for essay prompts.

 

We did very little writing in the early grades except for copy work intended primarily for working on handwriting. They produced quite a bit of writing on their own through various creative projects.  The spelling was horrific, but I bit my tongue as I didn't want to squash that creativity and we worked on spelling separately and more formally. 

 

I did surround them with lots of excellent literature through our read alouds and through audio books, something I believe was a key to their eventual writing success.  It gave them a feel for language, and a naturally large vocabulary.  I never did CM or WTM style oral narrations as we naturally discussed everything anyway, and their comprehension and ability to articulate their thoughts was easily apparent. I like to think all those discussions were another key to their writing success as they were comfortable in gathering, ordering and articulating their thoughts, and in defending them.

 

I didn't start with written narrations til later, and by middle school had them typing everything on the computer. One ds who had some learning issues didn't start narrations til 6th grade or so, the other easily started a few grades earlier.  I also had them do short research topics, as in reading up on an historical figure or a science topic and then summarize their findings in a few paragraphs.  By high school both were naturally able to write longer essays.  

 

I would edit their writing for spelling and grammar, then discuss any other problems whether it was clunky sentence structure or disorganized thoughts.  They were expected then to rewrite everything, though if the revision still wasn't great we'd move on.  I never assigned grades to their writing, just moved on and expected the next written assignment to be better.

 

Starting in middle school we generally homeschooled under the umbrella of a public charter. It kept me on target as we had to turn in work samples every month for each subject area. In high school my kids easily were producing a written paper on each subject each month, which roughly meant an edited writing assignment per week. One week it would be literature, the next history and the next science.  They even wrote about math a time or two! 

 

It worked well in our family. Both my boys did very well with their college writing assignments including the one who attended a liberal arts college with very rigorous writing expectations. 

[Another Lynn]

While it sounds great to naturally teach writing across the curriculum, it doesn't work well in all cases. One of my kids, I can teach this way, but my (smart) kids with learning disabilities need a lot of guidance and hand-holding and it is more structure than I can naturally provide.

 

Try it out, keep what works, and find some other way to teach the parts that are not working.

 

Thank you, Julie.  That is good advice!

[Another Lynn]

I've got two college graduates who were homeschooled all the way without a single writing program. 

 

My biggest influence came from an article of SWB's in which she lamented the poor writing produced by students in her college classes and stated her ideas on how to better teach writing k-12. The article apparently is no longer posted her WTM site (I just looked for it) but the essence of it can be found in her lectures and no doubt in the curricula she has since developed.  I did not follow the WTM writing suggestions as I had little boys who in no uncertain terms were NOT ready for that amount of writing in the early grades. By high school, though, I used the rhetoric section of the WTM as a guide.  I also loved the Well Educated Mind for tackling different genres of literature, and used the questions in there for more formal discussions and for essay prompts.

 

We did very little writing in the early grades except for copy work intended primarily for working on handwriting. They produced quite a bit of writing on their own through various creative projects.  The spelling was horrific, but I bit my tongue as I didn't want to squash that creativity and we worked on spelling separately and more formally. 

 

I did surround them with lots of excellent literature through our read alouds and through audio books, something I believe was a key to their eventual writing success.  It gave them a feel for language, and a naturally large vocabulary.  I never did CM or WTM style oral narrations as we naturally discussed everything anyway, and their comprehension and ability to articulate their thoughts was easily apparent. I like to think all those discussions were another key to their writing success as they were comfortable in gathering, ordering and articulating their thoughts, and in defending them.

 

I didn't start with written narrations til later, and by middle school had them typing everything on the computer. One ds who had some learning issues didn't start narrations til 6th grade or so, the other easily started a few grades earlier.  I also had them do short research topics, as in reading up on an historical figure or a science topic and then summarize their findings in a few paragraphs.  By high school both were naturally able to write longer essays.  

 

I would edit their writing for spelling and grammar, then discuss any other problems whether it was clunky sentence structure or disorganized thoughts.  They were expected then to rewrite everything, though if the revision still wasn't great we'd move on.  I never assigned grades to their writing, just moved on and expected the next written assignment to be better.

 

Starting in middle school we generally homeschooled under the umbrella of a public charter. It kept me on target as we had to turn in work samples every month for each subject area. In high school my kids easily were producing a written paper on each subject each month, which roughly meant an edited writing assignment per week. One week it would be literature, the next history and the next science.  They even wrote about math a time or two! 

 

It worked well in our family. Both my boys did very well with their college writing assignments including the one who attended a liberal arts college with very rigorous writing expectations. 

 

Thanks Jenn!  I always love reading about your experiences and how you homeschooled your boys - so encouraging!  One of the things I want to take to heart from your post is the importance of discussions for learning to defend their thoughts.  The other thing I'm making a mental note of is that it's okay if short research assignments and longer essays come a few years later than I might have wanted.  

[Ms.Ivy]

Ruth Beechick had some good ideas for teaching writing without curriculum.

[hornblower]

I'm going to say that this is just going to have to do a lot with your kids. I am a really natural writer.

My kids are not.  They read tons, we did a huge amount of read alouds, audio books, dictations, narrations,  discussions, etc etc.  Pretty much everything that Jenn says above. 

None of it was enough *for them*. I'm sure it helped tons, but if I had to go back in time I would have done more formal writing instruction earlier. As it is, I crammed it all into the gap year for kid 1 and will be doing the same for kid 2.

Fwiw, kid 1 is on the honor roll in 2nd yr of college & has been getting excellent marks even in writing intensive courses so maybe this is an ok way of doing it. Just lay a foundation & cram it in at the end if you need to (& quite possibly you won't....) 



 

[LMD]

Thanks!

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply. I've read some CM. I do think writing across content subjects is what we will do, but I would like to take a step towards something more than narrations - or perhaps my view of narrations is too narrow! :smash:

This is where I hit a wall too. I think that in my mind, narrations aren't... sophisticated? enough. Like, is the only difference between a grade 2 narration and a grade 5 narration summary length and/or writing it down (or having it dictated)?

And then the writing for the 5th grader should look like... main point outlines rewritten? One of these - 1 or 2 paragraphs only- a week?

 

This is what I am trying to do... DD, 5th/6th ish does written narrative summary 3x a week, we are slowly going through a midsummer night's dream and she does a 2-3 sentence summary of each page plus copy work of her favourite lines.

Then I have her pick out main points of paragraphs from either history or science reading - but putting this into a short writing assignment each week is not computing well in my brain and I'm not sure why... maybe because I'm having trouble hitting history/science at all these last few (stressful) weeks. Maybe it's just difficult to feel confident because she's my oldest.

 

We are also working through a poetry unit so she's doing writing there too.

 

Thanks for the topic op. I've read through previous threads too (I have a copy of one of 8filltheheart's posts printed!) but I always find them helpful.

[Another Lynn]

Ruth Beechick had some good ideas for teaching writing without curriculum.

 

Thanks!  I haven't read her stuff in a long time!  

[Another Lynn]

I'm going to say that this is just going to have to do a lot with your kids. I am a really natural writer.

 

My kids are not.  They read tons, we did a huge amount of read alouds, audio books, dictations, narrations,  discussions, etc etc.  Pretty much everything that Jenn says above. 

 

None of it was enough *for them*. I'm sure it helped tons, but if I had to go back in time I would have done more formal writing instruction earlier. As it is, I crammed it all into the gap year for kid 1 and will be doing the same for kid 2.

 

Fwiw, kid 1 is on the honor roll in 2nd yr of college & has been getting excellent marks even in writing intensive courses so maybe this is an ok way of doing it. Just lay a foundation & cram it in at the end if you need to (& quite possibly you won't....) 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing your experience.  So good to hear of successes in the end.  And that it's okay to cram more specific instruction in if needed!!!

[LMD]

One issue I have, I think, is that I keep automatically going to the structure of a typical 4-5 paragraph essay (which she can do). I'm not sure how to structure 1-2 paragraphs! Like, do you just literally rewrite, in your own words, the paragraph that you took the main point from? Is that enough? You don't do an intro/conclusion I'm assuming lol.

 

Hmm, off to ponder some more...

[Another Lynn]

This is where I hit a wall too. I think that in my mind, narrations aren't... sophisticated? enough. Like, is the only difference between a grade 2 narration and a grade 5 narration summary length and/or writing it down (or having it dictated)?

And then the writing for the 5th grader should look like... main point outlines rewritten? One of these - 1 or 2 paragraphs only- a week?

 

This is what I am trying to do... DD, 5th/6th ish does written narrative summary 3x a week, we are slowly going through a midsummer night's dream and she does a 2-3 sentence summary of each page plus copy work of her favourite lines.

Then I have her pick out main points of paragraphs from either history or science reading - but putting this into a short writing assignment each week is not computing well in my brain and I'm not sure why... maybe because I'm having trouble hitting history/science at all these last few (stressful) weeks. Maybe it's just difficult to feel confident because she's my oldest.

 

We are also working through a poetry unit so she's doing writing there too.

 

Thanks for the topic op. I've read through previous threads too (I have a copy of one of 8filltheheart's posts printed!) but I always find them helpful.

 

Yes!  When I try to implement outlines and re-writing from outlines and summaries, etc, I feel like I'm following instructions like "insert tab A into slot B" and then missing the bigger picture.  (Like you, I have 8fillthehearts posts printed and I'm probably due for a re-read.)  I think one thing that *I'm* missing when I implement WTM recommendations is purpose.  What is the purpose of their writing, does it have unity, does it have a thesis and supporting statements, etc.      

[Another Lynn]

One issue I have, I think, is that I keep automatically going to the structure of a typical 4-5 paragraph essay (which she can do). I'm not sure how to structure 1-2 paragraphs! Like, do you just literally rewrite, in your own words, the paragraph that you took the main point from? Is that enough? You don't do an intro/conclusion I'm assuming lol.

 

Hmm, off to ponder some more...

 

I think that could be fine.  As far as re-writing from outlines goes, I think I would (maybe) move on to two-level outlines before I had her write from them.  Just a thought.

 

Also, I'm beginning to think that I may want to use our spine or text just to help us choose a topic, but then go to other sources for research, asking ourselves what do we know about this topic, what questions do we still have, why is this topic important, what else do we want to know about it, etc. rather than letting one source dictate what we think about it and write about it.  

[Another Lynn]

I thought about this last night and remembered that at one stage, we did use Bravewriter's Help for High School. 

 

As far as transitioning from narration to essay, I just taught dd how to write each part; intro with thesis, paragraphs supporting the thesis with evidence from text, and conclusion. I think I then got her to practice two or three times. 

 

She was pretty easy to teach. i can tell you now that it won't work for my ds. Who will need more than three lessons in essay writing. Way, way more :)

 

Yes, I think it's partly the teacher and partly the student that determines what method is best.  Do you think Help for High School will be helpful for your ds?

[LMD]

I think that could be fine. As far as re-writing from outlines goes, I think I would (maybe) move on to two-level outlines before I had her write from them. Just a thought.

 

Also, I'm beginning to think that I may want to use our spine or text just to help us choose a topic, but then go to other sources for research, asking ourselves what do we know about this topic, what questions do we still have, why is this topic important, what else do we want to know about it, etc. rather than letting one source dictate what we think about it and write about it.

Yes! See, in my mind thinking that it's logic stage and I want to do a little more than rewrites, something about making connections or asking why. But maybe PPS are right, I should leave that to discussions for now and work on the skill of writing - using the one or two paragraph rewriting from main points...

[LMD]

I looked for increasing complexity of narration. That included length, but also things like expression, vocab, more sophisticated explanations of ideas, fuller narrations, more detail, a better grasp of overarching narratives.

OK, I feel like I have a very tenuous grasp on what you mean! More pondering required...

[LMD]

If I can dig out some samples I'll post them here and you'll be able to see the difference in maturity from 2nd to 5th grade.

 

My dd didn't transition to written narrations till she was 11, so they'll be narrations she dictated.

Oh my goodness I could kiss you!

[desertflower]

Sucb an interesting thread. I would have never thought about this.

 

Can anyone please provide a link to 8's thread you guys are referring to?

Or at least some key words that I can google to get to it?

 

Thanks.

[Another Lynn]

Sucb an interesting thread. I would have never thought about this.

 

Can anyone please provide a link to 8's thread you guys are referring to?

Or at least some key words that I can google to get to it?

 

Thanks.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/239259-bringing-karens-mention-of-essay-writing-to-a-new-thread/  Her posts are # 33 and # 34.  

[KeriJ]

I know you are asking about teaching writing without a curriculum, and I know you and I have discussed this before, but WWS has helped me tremendously with this.  If you at all buy into what SWB says in her lectures, WWS really helped me flesh it out.  Even just to have a copy to read through yourself helps to see where she is going with her method.  It helped us go from just narrations to more detail and more specific types of writing, and I can see where she is going in the long run.  Working through her assignments has given me more confidence to apply them to our own subjects.

[Kfamily]

I can also share some narrations as they grew over time, if anyone would like me to add them to the ones Sadie might provide. :)