Financial bailout bill does not pass

[Spy Car]

You know what, Spy Car - this isn't just about "sticking it" to the big corporations - this is about EVERYONE learning the lesson that needs to be learned; you can't live on credit.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. It is not the govt's, nor my responsibility to bail anyone else out for their own mistakes. If you are buying a house or running a business, you are a GROWN UP. If you lose your shirt, you start over!

 

We have become this nation of babies, thinking that things like homeownership, cars, education, and retirement are entitlements - they're NOT. They're things you get if you work really hard and make good choices.

 

You know what's going to happen if this bailout goes through? Inflation is going to go through the roof! You think things are expensive today....you ain't seen nothing yet. Anyone who has money put by for retirement....fugetaboutit! Inflation will outstrip interest so fast it will make your head spin.

 

The only way our children are ever going to afford houses is if prices drop to a reasonable level and the only way that's going to happen is if we step back and allow it to happen. If the amount of your mortgage becomes more than your house is worth, you have two choices. If you can keep making the payments and can stay there for 5 - 10 years, stick it out and your house may very well increase in value again. If you can't make those payments, walk the heck away from it and start over with a rental.

 

Life is tough. So many of us on this board know it. So many of us have gone through horrendous times and lived to tell the tale. Everyone involved in the current snafu will get through it, too, and they'll be a whole heck of a lot wiser afterwards.

 

How do I know this bail out is wrong? Because my government is telling me it has to pass TODAY without any real amount of time to think it over carefully. That's when my Bull**** meter starts ringing off the hook, ya know?

 

Five years ago dh and I were sitting in California predicting this very thing and neither one of us are financial experts. Don't tell me that thousands and thousands of those experts didn't know this day was coming and yet went ahead and made it happen anyway. God, I don't know who I'm more ashamed of; our government, our financial institutions or the people in this country.

 

I hear your anger, and in almost every measure I agree with it. The crazy loans and exceptions of ever-rising home values were (if not criminal) at least irresponsible and irrational. And you bet I agree that many (many) in the financial sector knew this was a bubble that would burst, and in their greed marched ahead to make short-term money.

 

We could spend a lot of time accessing blame, and venting our indignation, which I (as a very careful [dare I say "conservative"] person with finances) am liable to feel as angry about as anyone.

 

But still, we do need to look at the bigger picture. A total collapse of the economy is in no ones interest (with the exception of those who have a pile of cash and can sit on assets long-term).

 

My concern is "anger" (while more than understandable) is displacing "reason" in rallying large elements of the public against this measure. And that the consequences of failing to act are not well understood.

 

Bill

[amy g.]

I thought this was a good explanation.

 

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/sep/29/thornberry-responds-bailout-defeat/

[Soph the vet]

You know what, Spy Car - this isn't just about "sticking it" to the big corporations - this is about EVERYONE learning the lesson that needs to be learned; you can't live on credit.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. It is not the govt's, nor my responsibility to bail anyone else out for their own mistakes. If you are buying a house or running a business, you are a GROWN UP. If you lose your shirt, you start over!

 

We have become this nation of babies, thinking that things like homeownership, cars, education, and retirement are entitlements - they're NOT. They're things you get if you work really hard and make good choices.

 

You know what's going to happen if this bailout goes through? Inflation is going to go through the roof! You think things are expensive today....you ain't seen nothing yet. Anyone who has money put by for retirement....fugetaboutit! Inflation will outstrip interest so fast it will make your head spin.

 

The only way our children are ever going to afford houses is if prices drop to a reasonable level and the only way that's going to happen is if we step back and allow it to happen. If the amount of your mortgage becomes more than your house is worth, you have two choices. If you can keep making the payments and can stay there for 5 - 10 years, stick it out and your house may very well increase in value again. If you can't make those payments, walk the heck away from it and start over with a rental.

 

Life is tough. So many of us on this board know it. So many of us have gone through horrendous times and lived to tell the tale. Everyone involved in the current snafu will get through it, too, and they'll be a whole heck of a lot wiser afterwards.

 

How do I know this bail out is wrong? Because my government is telling me it has to pass TODAY without any real amount of time to think it over carefully. That's when my Bull**** meter starts ringing off the hook, ya know?

 

Five years ago dh and I were sitting in California predicting this very thing and neither one of us are financial experts. Don't tell me that thousands and thousands of those experts didn't know this day was coming and yet went ahead and made it happen anyway. God, I don't know who I'm more ashamed of; our government, our financial institutions or the people in this country.

Wish we still had the rep system, I'd give you lots for this.

 

A few posts mentioned the banks making bad decisions, true, but also I think the government under Carter started pressuring them to give out loans to less than qualified people even back then and Clinton continued it. So the government is certainly not off the hook here.

[Bev in B'ville]

 

Yes, our ducks in a row would be to pull out investments (all but IRA's), open a foreign securities account (read the equivalent of a Swiss bank account but they have other currancies as well), and pay off half our mortgage. We were just hoping to recoup some of our losses before we did all that, but this is our plan.

 

 

We pulled out of the market back when it hit a high of ~14,000. Alan Greenspan said this "correction in the market" was coming and we heeded his advice. Now we're just waiting for it to hit the bottom so we can stick the money back in.

 

The market will self-correct. It always does. I'd rather not have the bail out than have the government owning shares in anything and managing my share payouts.

[GreenKitty]

You know what, Spy Car - this isn't just about "sticking it" to the big corporations - this is about EVERYONE learning the lesson that needs to be learned; you can't live on credit.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. It is not the govt's, nor my responsibility to bail anyone else out for their own mistakes. If you are buying a house or running a business, you are a GROWN UP. If you lose your shirt, you start over!

 

We have become this nation of babies, thinking that things like homeownership, cars, education, and retirement are entitlements - they're NOT. They're things you get if you work really hard and make good choices.

 

You know what's going to happen if this bailout goes through? Inflation is going to go through the roof! You think things are expensive today....you ain't seen nothing yet. Anyone who has money put by for retirement....fugetaboutit! Inflation will outstrip interest so fast it will make your head spin.

 

The only way our children are ever going to afford houses is if prices drop to a reasonable level and the only way that's going to happen is if we step back and allow it to happen. If the amount of your mortgage becomes more than your house is worth, you have two choices. If you can keep making the payments and can stay there for 5 - 10 years, stick it out and your house may very well increase in value again. If you can't make those payments, walk the heck away from it and start over with a rental.

 

Life is tough. So many of us on this board know it. So many of us have gone through horrendous times and lived to tell the tale. Everyone involved in the current snafu will get through it, too, and they'll be a whole heck of a lot wiser afterwards.

 

How do I know this bail out is wrong? Because my government is telling me it has to pass TODAY without any real amount of time to think it over carefully. That's when my Bull**** meter starts ringing off the hook, ya know?

 

Five years ago dh and I were sitting in California predicting this very thing and neither one of us are financial experts. Don't tell me that thousands and thousands of those experts didn't know this day was coming and yet went ahead and made it happen anyway. God, I don't know who I'm more ashamed of; our government, our financial institutions or the people in this country.

 

Your words are my thoughts. Thanks for posting.

[5kidsforME]

You know what, Spy Car - this isn't just about "sticking it" to the big corporations - this is about EVERYONE learning the lesson that needs to be learned; you can't live on credit.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. It is not the govt's, nor my responsibility to bail anyone else out for their own mistakes. If you are buying a house or running a business, you are a GROWN UP. If you lose your shirt, you start over!

 

We have become this nation of babies, thinking that things like homeownership, cars, education, and retirement are entitlements - they're NOT. They're things you get if you work really hard and make good choices.

 

You know what's going to happen if this bailout goes through? Inflation is going to go through the roof! You think things are expensive today....you ain't seen nothing yet. Anyone who has money put by for retirement....fugetaboutit! Inflation will outstrip interest so fast it will make your head spin.

 

ETA: I am not sure how I feel about them not passing it. On one hand I'm sooo glad! It's about time we all (the whole country) took responsibility for ourselves. On the other I am scared for what could happen.

 

The only way our children are ever going to afford houses is if prices drop to a reasonable level and the only way that's going to happen is if we step back and allow it to happen. If the amount of your mortgage becomes more than your house is worth, you have two choices. If you can keep making the payments and can stay there for 5 - 10 years, stick it out and your house may very well increase in value again. If you can't make those payments, walk the heck away from it and start over with a rental.

 

Life is tough. So many of us on this board know it. So many of us have gone through horrendous times and lived to tell the tale. Everyone involved in the current snafu will get through it, too, and they'll be a whole heck of a lot wiser afterwards.

 

How do I know this bail out is wrong? Because my government is telling me it has to pass TODAY without any real amount of time to think it over carefully. That's when my Bull**** meter starts ringing off the hook, ya know?

 

Five years ago dh and I were sitting in California predicting this very thing and neither one of us are financial experts. Don't tell me that thousands and thousands of those experts didn't know this day was coming and yet went ahead and made it happen anyway. God, I don't know who I'm more ashamed of; our government, our financial institutions or the people in this country.

 

I am really confused about something too. I read on www.foxnews.com the article about this, so if you want you can go there and read all of the article I am talking about. Here is a snipet:

 

The crisis we are facing remains," said White House Deputy Spokesman Tony Fratto, who added, "We're obviously disappointed."

Fratto said that he thinks many Americans were mistaken by believing that the bill was a "bailout of Wall Street." Instead, he said the bill was to prevent a large economic crisis.

"Nobody wants to bail out Wall Street, and we understand Americans might be opposed to bailing out Wall Street ... This is not a bailout," he said. "We hope Americans don't need to see real evidence of a break down in order to prevent a break down."

 

Ok, I can understand this part. BUT is there anywhere we can read line by line the bail out package that was presented and turned down. If WE the PEOPLE are PAYING for this through taxes and whatnot why can't we see it??

 

ETA: On one hand I am THRILLED this did not get passed, on the other hand I am nervous about it too.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Momto4kids
ETA:

[neesek]

I have a young niece who bought her first new car just a few months ago. She told me that the bank told her how much they would lend her, and that was how she picked out the car, based on what they told her she could afford, not the other way around. I know her income, there is no way she should have bought that car.

 

I know that every time we have looked at cars and asked about prices, the first question asked is not how much do you want to spend, but how much of a payment do you want. Look at the car ads. Many don't tell the price- just what the payment amount is, but if you look at the fine print, they are basing the payment on something like a 6 year loan on a 5-6 year old car or something crazy like that. The __________ consumer bites (you fill in your own word here - gullible? irresponsible?) , the salesman gets his sale, everybody is happy until the buyer can't make the payment.

 

The same thing happened to us when we bought our house. What the bank said we could afford was much more that we had decided we could afford. Fortunately for us, we stuck with our numbers and our mortgage is manageable.

 

Then we have the whole credit card thing. How many offers for credit cards do we throw away every month? The blame lies all around. The companies, banks, mortgage companies have marketed easy credit, get it now scenarios. Many of us don't bite, others do. Yes, they shouldn't make it so easy, but on the other hand, we don't have to bite.

Edited September 29, 2008 by neesek
sp

[Murphy101]

You know what, Spy Car - this isn't just about "sticking it" to the big corporations - this is about EVERYONE learning the lesson that needs to be learned; you can't live on credit.

 

We are all responsible for our own actions. It is not the govt's, nor my responsibility to bail anyone else out for their own mistakes. If you are buying a house or running a business, you are a GROWN UP. If you lose your shirt, you start over!

 

We have become this nation of babies, thinking that things like homeownership, cars, education, and retirement are entitlements - they're NOT. They're things you get if you work really hard and make good choices.

 

You know what's going to happen if this bailout goes through? Inflation is going to go through the roof! You think things are expensive today....you ain't seen nothing yet. Anyone who has money put by for retirement....fugetaboutit! Inflation will outstrip interest so fast it will make your head spin.

 

The only way our children are ever going to afford houses is if prices drop to a reasonable level and the only way that's going to happen is if we step back and allow it to happen. If the amount of your mortgage becomes more than your house is worth, you have two choices. If you can keep making the payments and can stay there for 5 - 10 years, stick it out and your house may very well increase in value again. If you can't make those payments, walk the heck away from it and start over with a rental.

 

Life is tough. So many of us on this board know it. So many of us have gone through horrendous times and lived to tell the tale. Everyone involved in the current snafu will get through it, too, and they'll be a whole heck of a lot wiser afterwards.

 

How do I know this bail out is wrong? Because my government is telling me it has to pass TODAY without any real amount of time to think it over carefully. That's when my Bull**** meter starts ringing off the hook, ya know?

 

Five years ago dh and I were sitting in California predicting this very thing and neither one of us are financial experts. Don't tell me that thousands and thousands of those experts didn't know this day was coming and yet went ahead and made it happen anyway. God, I don't know who I'm more ashamed of; our government, our financial institutions or the people in this country.

 

Oh lordy, if I could hug you right now, I would. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree::cheers2:

 

We ARE thinking about it! We want it to change. If we keep artificially propping up an artificial system, it WILL fall, only harder. I think many of us who oppose the bailout oppose it because we are ready to face the consequences now rather than have our children and their children do it for us.

 

BTW, my husband's income, in great part, comes from businesses who rely on credit. This will hurt us. I'm not naive to that.

 

Yep. Us too. We are already very tight. Our simple goal for the next 5 years is to keep our house and food on the table in it. That's it.

 

An economic system based on credit is BAD.

 

If you can pay cash for your bills you do not need credit.

 

A business that is running on credit is not a solid business.

After the first 5 years, a business should have some profit and assets. Any credit they might be using should never be more than the sum of their profit/asset values.

 

The problem is, far too many people treat credit like income. And it isn't.

 

Our finances are VERY tight. Seriously considering foodstamps kind of tight.

 

But you know what? It's NOT because we have a ton of credit. It's because our grocery and fuel expenses are nearly 4 times what they were just a year ago despite our cutting back as much as possible. And my dh's income has not gone up at all. (he's salary) And our health benefits are more expensive and cover far less.

 

Not everyone who is having hard times is having them because they were getting stupid drunk on credit and living the high life on low incomes.

 

I know we're in for hard times. Frankly, I've yet to hear a single argument for the bailout that would change that. When I do, I might change my mind about it.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Martha

[Amy loves Bud]

My concern is "anger" (while more than understandable) is displacing "reason" in rallying large elements of the public against this measure. And that the consequences of failing to act are not well understood.

 

Bill

 

Bill, it is quite possible to be angry AND reasonable at the same time. As I believe Jennifer is and most of us who oppose the bailout are. We understand the consequences of a bailout or no bailout (as well as anyone can at this point) and we know where we stand. Just because our conclusion as to the best way to move forward is different from yours does not mean we've allowed anger to displace our reason. Quite the opposite. Our anger has prompted us to think, study, pray, talk and this is where we find ourselves. ;)

 

I enjoy reading your posts, but would appreciate it if you would stick to the pros and cons of the situation before us rather than patting those of us who disagree with you on the head and giving us a "there, there, calm down and think straight."

Edited September 29, 2008 by Amy loves Bud
left out a word

[Pammy]

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

[laylamcb]

I hear your anger, and in almost every measure I agree with it. The crazy loans and exceptions of ever-rising home values were (if not criminal) at least irresponsible and irrational. And you bet I agree that many (many) in the financial sector knew this was a bubble that would burst, and in their greed marched ahead to make short-term money.

 

We could spend a lot of time accessing blame, and venting our indignation, which I (as a very careful [dare I say "conservative"] person with finances) am liable to feel as angry about as anyone.

 

But still, we do need to look at the bigger picture. A total collapse of the economy is in no ones interest (with the exception of those who have a pile of cash and can sit on assets long-term).

 

My concern is "anger" (while more than understandable) is displacing "reason" in rallying large elements of the public against this measure. And that the consequences of failing to act are not well understood.

 

Bill

 

Totally, totally hear you here, Bill. We are also very careful with our money and have no debt other than a mortgage. And yes, I'm as mad as blankety-blank-blank-blank, and I called my congressman (or rather, he called ME, if you can believe it!!) and said HECK NO to the bailout.

 

But the thing is that there hasn't ever been any guarantee that this would work anyway. I mean, even Paulson couldn't promise that it would work (not that his word means much anyway). In fact, to my way of thinking, it just continues the charade. And what good is that, really? Marie and I were just discussing this above: We both acknowledged that if the bailout HAD passed and the stock market had responded favorably, both of us would have quickly assessed our position and our holdings. And I think we all know what that means: We'd have sold like our shares were on fire.

 

So I agree with you completely that we can't let anger triumph over reason, and I also agree with you that this will hurt ALL of us. But from one conservative to another (speaking in terms of personal finance, of course :D), didn't we all know deep down that the Great American Party was going to end eventually, whether we were the ones pulling the slots and shopping 'til we dropped or not? Believe me, we're going to need that $600B to pay for unemployment benefits.... :glare:

[Donna T.]

[QUOTE=MelissaD;562697]What does that mean? Not being snarky, I'm just very ignorant about the economy beyond my own house.[/quote]

 

Let's see. The dollar is not worth what it is printed on, millions of people own houses that are worth less than what their mortgage is for, the stock market is tanking, the FDIC may not have the money to back our accounts, the government is in debt up to their earlobes, as well as most Americans. Foreign countries now have the upper hand because we own them money (including our not so loving ally, China), we are the laughing stock of the world market, and cost of goods and oil are sky rocketing. This is more than an economic downturn.

 

It is a good thing I believe in a Sovereign God who holds my future in His hands or I would be very despondant right now.

 

Yeah. What she said. :iagree:

[Spy Car]

The market will self-correct. It always does.

 

With small bumps the market can (and does) self-correct.

 

But markets don't self-correct when there is a massive collapse of liquidly.

 

Today we are facing a situation very similar to 1929, when it was margin calls on stocks rather than widespread mortgage failures that triggered the Great Depression.

 

In terms of the economy seizing for lack of spending power and ability to borrow the situation the situations are highly analogous. In 1929 it was decided to let the market "self-correct" and we had an economic depression that really didn't pass until World War II got the economy moving again.

 

We are supposed to learn from our mistakes.

 

Bill

[Bev in B'ville]

Anyone have a link to how each member of Congress voted?

 

TIA,

 

You can find it here.

 

For what it's worth, I agree with JennifersLost.

 

By the way there was a hysterical video on youtube the other day entitled "rescue me," set to the song of the same name. It was funny, but don't eat or drink while watching if you find it; you're likely to choke.

[Murphy101]

I have a young niece who bought her first new car just a few months ago. She told me that the bank told her how much they would lend her, and that was how she picked out the car, based on what they told her she could afford, not the other way around. I know her income, there is no way she should have bought that car.

 

I know that every time we have looked at cars and asked about prices, the first question asked is not how much do you want to spend, but how much of a payment do you want. Look at the car ads. Many don't tell the price- just what the payment amount is, but if you look at the fine print, they are basing the payment on something like a 6 year loan on a 5-6 year old car or something crazy like that. The __________ consumer bites (you fill in your own word here - gullible? irresponsible?) , the salesman gets his sale, everybody is happy until the buyer can't make the payment.

 

The same thing happened to us when we bought our house. What the bank said we could afford was much more that we had decided we could afford. Fortunately for us, we stuck with our numbers and our mortgage is manageable.

 

Then we have the whole credit card thing. How many offers for credit cards do we throw away every month? The blame lies all around. The companies, banks, mortgage companies have marketed easy credit, get it now scenarios. Many of us don't bite, others do. Yes, they shouldn't make it so easy, but on the other hand, we don't have to bite.

 

ARGH!!!!!!! Where were her parents? ANYONE to tell her about basic money management and bargaining?! Poor thing. She's up creek already.

 

People do NOT know how to budget, much less how to buy.

 

my dh who made 45K when we moved over a year ago was told we could afford a 275K mortgage! um. not if we wanted to ever drink milk or use toilet paper we couldn't!

 

NO. People you HAVE to have a budget of income and expenses.

You HAVE to know what you can afford, and go cheaper than that.

 

And you NEVER let the people you are buying from be in charge of how much you are paying. EVER. They will never ever care about your financial state. No, they won't. They couldn't care less if you never buy another roll of tp or slice of meat for the next 5 years.

 

If you need a car loan, you get that first via the best lender you've shopped for and for the amount that you are comfortable paying from what's left in your budget for a loan payment. THEN you go shopping for what you have already decided you NEED and tell them what you are willing to pay. And you walk away if they won't deal. You can bet someone else down the road will want your money and will deal for it.

[Slartibartfast]

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

 

I think that is the wrong bill

[laylamcb]

I have a young niece who bought her first new car just a few months ago. She told me that the bank told her how much they would lend her, and that was how she picked out the car, based on what they told her she could afford, not the other way around. I know her income, there is no way she should have bought that car.

 

 

Hmmmm. Can we take part of the $600B we've just saved and mandate personal finance courses for everyone?? :001_huh:

 

Just a thought.

 

But seriously, folks, keep in mind that the fact that THIS bill failed doesn't mean that Congress is going to throw up its collective hands and say, "Oh well. Bring on the Second Great Depression." Instead, they're going to have to go back to the table and discuss this more. Which is all I'm asking for. (Not that I don't completely believe my president when he tells me that we must act immediately on something or dire consequences will ensue.... :glare:)

 

I'm hoping that this legislative failure means that now the starting point won't be the Paulson plan at all. Blank slate, and the inclusion of a wide range of economists in the talks. Please.

[Spy Car]

Bill, it is quite possible to be angry AND reasonable at the same time. As I believe Jennifer is and most of us who oppose the bailout are. We understand the consequences of a bailout or no bailout (as well as anyone can at this point) and we know where we stand. Just because our conclusion as to the best way to move forward is different from yours does not mean we've allowed anger to displace our reason. Quite the opposite. Our anger has prompted us to think, study, pray, talk and this is where we find ourselves. ;)

 

I enjoy reading your posts, but would appreciate it if you would stick to the pros and cons of the situation before us rather than patting those of us who disagree with you on the head and giving us a "there, there, calm down and think straight."

 

I'm sorry if you felt I was being condescending Amy, it is not my intention. I spoke of "large elements of the public", not of members of this forum, and certainly welcome the opinions of those whose analysis of this differs from my own.

 

I do fear the interconnectedness of our economy is underestimated by many. And that the absence of "cash" in the economy will cost people their jobs and their homes.

 

Bill

[laylamcb]

I think that is the wrong bill

 

No, that's it. But why they described it this way is beyond me:

 

BILL TITLE: To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide earnings assistance and tax relief to members of the uniformed services, volunteer firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, and for other purposes

 

:001_huh:

 

Um, wherever you fall on this issue, I think we can all agree that these things it certainly would NOT do.

[CAMom]

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

 

Thank you, Pammy!!:)

[neesek]

I think that is the wrong bill

 

It looks like the right one to me. My congressman, a republican, voted no on it.

[Parabola]

Does anyone think this needs to fail, the economy needs to crash, we need to hit bottom, consequences be d***ed? Our economic system is messed up, its not going to be fixed with bandaids and bailouts.

I understand how potentially bad this can be, but I think bailing out the big guys, leaving the rest of us to struggle is the worse solution. I think to keep basing our economy on credit is the worse solution. And to not pass the right kind of regulation to keep it from happening again (because you know thats what would happen once the crisis is over) is unacceptable.

 

Maybe I'm out in left field, but I really think this may need to happen.

[neesek]

No, that's it. But why they described it this way is beyond me:

 

BILL TITLE: To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide earnings assistance and tax relief to members of the uniformed services, volunteer firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, and for other purposes

 

:001_huh:

 

Um, wherever you fall on this issue, I think we can all agree that these things it certainly would NOT do.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Murphy101]

Hmmmm. Can we take part of the $600B we've just saved and mandate personal finance courses for everyone?? :001_huh:

 

ahem. all the "personal finance" courses I've seen pushed are sponsored by banks and other lenders and really are just credit pushers. The most responsible thing a person can do is avoid credit like the plague and they aren't likely to offer much encouragement for that, now are they?

 

otherwise, I'd completely agree with you.

 

But seriously, folks, keep in mind that the fact that THIS bill failed doesn't mean that Congress is going to throw up its collective hands and say, "Oh well. Bring on the Second Great Depression." Instead, they're going to have to go back to the table and discuss this more. Which is all I'm asking for. (Not that I don't completely believe my president when he tells me that we must act immediately on something or dire consequences will ensue.... :glare:)

 

I'm hoping that this legislative failure means that now the starting point won't be the Paulson plan at all. Blank slate, and the inclusion of a wide range of economists in the talks. Please.

 

:iagree:I don't think they are just going to toss their hands int eh air either.

But the main reason I'm not for the bailout is that I don't think it's worth it. If they come up with a better plan that has a more solid outcome prediction, then I might change my mind.

 

yes, we have to learn from the Great Depression mistakes. BUT, it's might hard to say any of it was mistake or success. It's highly likely that the same type of bailout back then wouldn't have netted a better result.

 

Trust me, if we can avoid a depression, great or otherwise, I'm interested in that. But if we can't, I want to minimize the damage. As other said, if it's comming and can't be avoided - those billions can go to far better uses than a bailout.

[Spy Car]

Believe me, we're going to need that $600B to pay for unemployment benefits.... :glare:

 

This, I really believe, is the alternative Leila. We can either try to rescue the economy or we can start paying out unemployment benefits in numbers unknown in our history.

 

Bill

[laylamcb]

Does anyone think this needs to fail, the economy needs to crash, we need to hit bottom, consequences be d***ed? Our economic system is messed up, its not going to be fixed with bandaids and bailouts.

I understand how potentially bad this can be, but I think bailing out the big guys, leaving the rest of us to struggle is the worse solution. I think to keep basing our economy on credit is the worse solution. And to not pass the right kind of regulation to keep it from happening again (because you know thats what would happen once the crisis is over) is unacceptable.

 

Maybe I'm out in left field, but I really think this may need to happen.

 

In general, Parabola, I think you're right on. And I think that's what most of us are saying. We know that this doesn't "stick it to the fatcats"--it sticks it to all of us. But the fact is that we're already STUCK. Let's just take the medicine now. Heck, we've put off taking the medicine for at least five years. Take it NOW.

 

I'm right there in center field beside you. ;)

[Mama Lynx]

Woohoo! Democracy triumphs!

 

Now I'm :leaving: and joining Remudamom for drinks. :auto:

 

Woohoo!! Can I join you? I'm glad it didn't pass, and I do want the rum!

 

I've got to call my Rep's office tomorrow to find out how he voted.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

In general, Parabola, I think you're right on. And I think that's what most of us are saying. We know that this doesn't "stick it to the fatcats"--it sticks it to all of us. But the fact is that we're already STUCK. Let's just take the medicine now. Heck, we've put off taking the medicine for at least five years. Take it NOW.

 

I'm right there in center field beside you. ;)

 

Or we could just call this what it is without the sugar coat and just officially nationalize the banks.

[Spy Car]

Does anyone think this needs to fail, the economy needs to crash, we need to hit bottom, consequences be d***ed? Our economic system is messed up, its not going to be fixed with bandaids and bailouts.

I understand how potentially bad this can be, but I think bailing out the big guys, leaving the rest of us to struggle is the worse solution. I think to keep basing our economy on credit is the worse solution. And to not pass the right kind of regulation to keep it from happening again (because you know thats what would happen once the crisis is over) is unacceptable.

 

Maybe I'm out in left field, but I really think this may need to happen.

 

I grew up with two parents who were raised during the Great Depression.

 

While they were both lived in homes that were relatively well off, the stories they have shared with me of those times and the hopelessness and misery experienced by friends and neighbors convinces me the option of a complete crash is a very bad one. But is a very real possibility.

 

Bill

[Amy loves Bud]

I'm sorry if you felt I was being condescending Amy, it is not my intention. I spoke of "large elements of the public", not of members of this forum, and certainly welcome the opinions of those whose analysis of this differs from my own.

 

I do fear the interconnectedness of our economy is underestimated by many. And that the absence of "cash" in the economy will cost people their jobs and their homes.

 

Bill

 

No worries. I'm admittedly a little :sneaky2: about this whole issue.

 

Most of the people I know who oppose the bailout are very aware of what we may be facing. They feel that it is a)postponing the inevitable to proceed with a bailout, and b) time to deal with our screwed up system now before it destroys the economy of generations to come rather than just our own.

 

It's frightening, I'm with you on that.

[laylamcb]

I grew up with two parents who were raised during the Great Depression.

 

While they were both lived in homes that were relatively well off, the stories they have shared with me of those times and the hopelessness and misery experienced by friends and neighbors convinces me the option of a complete crash is a very bad one. But is a very real possibility.

 

Bill

 

But Bill, you must know that none of us want that, and that we too understand that it is a very real possibility. Many of us just disagree that this particular bailout would have prevented what we see as inevitable. We're all in this together. :grouphug:

[Greta]

My congressman, a republican, voted no on it.

 

Funny, just the opposite for me. My rep, who is also a Republican, voted yes. She always votes the exact opposite of what I want her to. I had mixed feelings about this, but the fact that she supported it reassures me that it was not a good idea and that it's fine that it failed. :D

[Spy Car]

No worries. I'm admittedly a little :sneaky2: about this whole issue.

 

Most of the people I know who oppose the bailout are very aware of what we may be facing. They feel that it is a)postponing the inevitable to proceed with a bailout, and b) time to deal with our screwed up system now before it destroys the economy of generations to come rather than just our own.

 

It's frightening, I'm with you on that.

 

But Bill, you must know that none of us want that, and that we too understand that it is a very real possibility. Many of us just disagree that this particular bailout would have prevented what we see as inevitable. We're all in this together. :grouphug:

 

I'm totally with you two that we are in this together :grouphug:

 

Bill

[Parabola]

I grew up with two parents who were raised during the Great Depression.

 

While they were both lived in homes that were relatively well off, the stories they have shared with me of those times and the hopelessness and misery experienced by friends and neighbors convinces me the option of a complete crash is a very bad one. But is a very real possibility.

 

Bill

 

I understand, but its getting bad already. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression as well, and they didn't have luxory of being well off. And I understand your point, I've listened to the ways the bailout would save the economy. Or rather, could save the economy. For now. Maybe.

Its all props though, and I'd rather face the hardship now then later, or have my kids face it as adults.

And actually, I'm quite encouraged by how so many people in the country are saying NO to the bailout, even with the consequences it could bring. Kinda restores my faith a little bit in people. But I'm d*** mad that the vast majority of representatives are doing what THEY want instead of turning to their representees and asking them what they want. This is why representative government is a crock.

[Amy loves Bud]

I'm totally with you two that we are in this together :grouphug:

 

Bill

 

Anyone want to sing Kumbayah with me?

[Mama Lynx]

My congressman voted for it.

 

Guess what? That clears up that race for me, come November.

[Mrs Mungo]

But I'm d*** mad that the vast majority of representatives are doing what THEY want instead of turning to their representees and asking them what they want. This is why representative government is a crock.

 

It doesn't look like that's what's happening. Checking the roll call it looks split between those who are not up for relection and those who are.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[neesek]

It doesn't look like that's what's happening. Checking the roll call it looks split between those who are not up for relection and those who are.

 

Aren't they all up for reelection? At least in the House?

[Parabola]

Anyone want to sing Kumbayah with me?

Its nice to see hugs in with the disagreements. :)

It doesn't look like that's what's happening. Checking the roll call it looks split between those who are not up for relection and those who are.

 

Does the roll call indicate how the representees feel, along with how the representative voted, for comparison?

[Bev in B'ville]

It looks like the right one to me. My congressman, a republican, voted no on it.

 

 

Mine, too. He sent out this email.

 

Lynn today voted against the $700 billion bailout plan, but pledged his support for returning to work on the issue later in the week. The vote in the House failed 205-228.

 

Lynn issued the following statement after today's vote:

“As the financial crisis has unfolded over the past year, we’ve slowly watched the dominos drop one after another and we’ve seen one bailout after another,†Westmoreland said. “Each time we were told: ‘This bailout is going to fix the problem.’ We’ve already spent hundreds of billions of dollars that our government does not have and yet the problems continue to deepen. I’ve read all the documents and listened to the experts and no one can say – not even with nearly $1 trillion on the line – that this will work.

 

“Undoubtedly, this is one of the toughest votes that I’ve taken in Congress. When faced with a tough decision, I rely on my principles – that smaller government is better and that markets work better bureaucratic decisions. While this bailout may work in the short term, I’m concerned greatly about the long-term consequences. When government willingly steps in to rescue people from risky behavior, government creates an incentive for future risky behavior. When businesses accept greater regulation in order to receive a bailout, we enlarge government, distort markets and render capitalism less efficient.

 

“I do believe that our nation faces great financial challenges right now, and I believe that Congress should act. But the House should not appropriate up to $700 billion for a bill that didn’t exist until a few days ago and that never went through one committee hearing. This legislation costs way too much to pass through Congress with so little scrutiny. If the process is broken, the product is flawed. Combined with war costs, other bailouts and the stimulus packages, we can’t afford to be wrong with a price tag this high.

 

“I have supported an alternative plan that would lower taxes and regulations to create an incentive for private money, foreign and domestic, to flow back into the credit markets. Unfortunately, alternative versions were shut out of this closed process.â€

 

Lynn has received hundreds, if not thousands, of emails and calls from constituents in Georgia's 3rd Congressional District. More than 90 percent of those messages urged a "no" vote.

[Amy in NY]

I feel relieved, nervous and scared all at the same time. Depending on who I listen to, I'm convinced we need a bailout package or convinced we don't. I wish I knew more or had a crystal ball. My first instinct is to say, "Good!"

 

Then I think about our retirement and feel like crying.

 

Janet

 

Retirement? What is that?

 

:tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

I'd rather face the hardship now then later, or have my kids face it as adults.

 

I hope you are thinking this through. If (and I grant you it is a BIG if), the bail-out is handled well, the government will take over assets, stabilize the markets and will at a future date be able to sell those assets. And even potentially turn a profit.

 

When the S&Ls were failing the government had a similar takeover of assets by the Federal "Resolution Trust Corporation", and it was able to prevent a crash while eventually breaking even (or perhaps turning a slight profit).

 

We need "reform" (I'm totally with you there) but I don't think a Depression now will help our children's future one bit.

 

Bill

[Laura R (FL)]

I'm going to watch some news and catch up now. I got online and saw the Dow had dropped over 700 points. WOW!!!

 

I share the same opinions as others...I don't want the bailout because of the principles involved. then again, my retirement and life insurance is through AIG. sigh. :confused:

[Spy Car]

Does the roll call indicate how the representees feel, along with how the representative voted, for comparison?

 

Mine (a Democrat) voted against. His office has received a call from me expressing my displeasure with that vote.

[Kathleen in VA]

I just received this email from my congressman - the one who had the virtual town hall meeting on Saturday to ask his constituents what they wanted him to do:

The past several days have been historic ones for Congress and for the families and people of this great nation. We face significant challenges in our financial markets and I do not underestimate the serious nature of the decisions we face in dealing with the credit crisis. I realize that the current credit crisis could create problems for every American should the financial markets freeze and remain frozen. Throughout this debate it has been clear that action is necessary but the recovery bill considered in the House of Representatives today should not have been the only option.

 

In reviewing the plan and doing some deep soul searching I believe that it had significant problems. First is the government purchase and ownership of troubled private assets on a massive scale. The impact of this action would be a fundamental change in the role of government in the American free enterprise system. The obligations to offset Wall Street losses would have been placed on future generations. To authorize the Paulson plan would be to lessen the consequences of risky behavior and could lead to riskier behavior in the future. Furthermore it did not go far enough in holding accountable those at fault for the current crisis by failing to establish penalties for their past bad business practices.

 

There are free market mechanisms that should have been and still can be implemented to help ease the current crisis. While the recovery bill would have allowed community banks to write off losses on their holdings of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac stock, it did not provide backing to assist banks in raising private capital. By providing incentives for private capital, the government could help troubled banks offset losses that keep them from lending while limiting government intervention and taxpayer risk.

 

I also have serious concerns with government overseeing the purchase and sale of these troubled private assets. I feared that the purchase and sale of the assets would not have been executed in the most efficient way possible under this proposal and taxpayers could lose. The potential existed for the government to pay too much and sell for too little.

 

In addition I had considerable reservations about increasing the national debt by 6.6% to $11.3 trillion dollars to finance the bailout. This equates to an additional $3,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the U.S. on top of the $34,000 already owed by each American toward the national debt. We cannot continue to borrow and spend at this rate and expect a healthy future for our country.

 

In my deliberations, I sought to make a decision in the best interest of the taxpayers. Over the past week I've had calls, emails, letters and visits from over 2000 constituents of the First District with an overwhelming majority voicing opposition to this recovery plan. Many of you expressed a need for Congress to act, but felt that this plan was not the right course of action. With that in mind I have offered that Congress should not adjourn and should stay in Washington to get the right plan for economic recovery.

 

My two main priorities for any plan are to most wisely protect you as a taxpayer and to protect the value of your retirement, your home and your savings. There is no doubt that this crisis and resulting legislation would have had significant impact on our future. However, I believe that the proposed plan for recovery had substantial and avoidable flaws. The plan that was before us put $700 billion in taxpayer funding on the line to bail out Wall Street financial firms, would fundamentally alter free market decision making, let bad actors off the hook and create a massive new bureaucracy with no guarantee of success. For these reasons I could not vote in favor of this plan. The House of Representatives failed to pass H.R. 3997, the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, today by a vote of 205-228.

 

Sounds like he wants to just keep working towards a plan that has fewer flaws, although I'm not sure what that means exactly.

[hsmamainva]

My Representative, a Republican, voted "No"

 

And he's up for re-election. :D

 

:makes mental note not to vote for him ... oh, that's right...didn't vote for him last time either:

 

From what I understand, it was the Republicans who voted down the measure -- but then, it didn't help that Nancy Pelosi rubbed salt in the wound right before the final vote, bringing up the fact that Bush entered office with a two trillion dollar surplus and now we're in debt up to our eyeballs.

 

Couldn't she have made that speech AFTER the vote? :glare:

 

And the final tally for the stock exchange was -777 points

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Sounds like he wants to just keep working towards a plan that has fewer flaws, although I'm not sure what that means exactly.

 

This is So hard. I think the plan was RUSHED, but when speed is of essence? What to do?

 

Can they suspend trading on Wall Street for a couple of days?

 

Oh my.

 

I'm so glad you have such a responsive congressperson.

[hsmamainva]

This is So hard. I think the plan was RUSHED, but when speed is of essence? What to do?

 

That was my husband's main gripe....and he repeated it again today.

 

He said that the last time President Bush said, "This is a crisis! We have to act now! We can't wait! Hurry! Hurry!" -- we ended up invading Iraq, searching for those weapons of mass destruction.

 

And that not many folks (voters and legislators alike) are going to rush to do anything quickly when Bush says "NOW!!"

[Mrs Mungo]

(CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama blasted Congress for not passing a financial rescue package Monday, while Sen. John McCain's campaign accused Obama and Democrats of putting "politics ahead of country."

 

Sen. Barack Obama said inaction in Congress and partisanship have made people lose faith in Washington.

 

 

 

 

The House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion plan to bail out the financial system, putting a roadblock in front of the largest government intervention in the market since the Great Depression.

 

 

 

 

The bill failed by a vote of 205 to 228, with 140 Democrats and 65 Republicans voting in favor and 95 Democrats joining 133 Republicans against.

 

So, McCain and Bush put together a bill, stick it in Congress, it fails because the Republicans vote against it 2 to 1 and it's the Democrats fault.

 

 

:glare: